/sci/ - Science & Math

>>6311652
Wasn't dolphin intelligence debunked to be just a really advanced form of parroting?

<-- any anatomists on here? neurologists? neuroscientists?

what can u tell me from this pic? Dolphin brain left, Human right.

>>6311669
no, they are smart and self aware they even have names and talk about eachother behind backs really they are quite cliquish

Well, Indians and dolphins both share a proclivity for rape, so I suppose it was just a matter of time.

>>6311685
>dolphins
>proclivity for rape

wat?

>>6311689
>proclivity
You don't want to know, anon.

>>6311669
easy self-aware test
put a sticker on the forehead, show them a mirror and if they try to shake the sticker off they think therefor they are
funfact, humans don't do that normaly

>>6311695

>To test for dolphin self-awareness, Diana Reiss of Columbia University and Lori Marino of Emory University exposed two bottlenose dolphins to reflective surfaces after marking the dolphins with black ink, applying a water-filled marker (sham-marking) or not marking them at all. The team predicted that if the dolphins¿which had prior experience with mirrors¿recognized their reflections, they would not show social responses; they would spend more time in front of the mirror when marked; and they would make their way over to the mirror more quickly to inspect themselves when marked or sham-marked. The experiments bore out all three predictions in both dolphin subjects. Moreover, the animals even selected the best reflective surface available to view their markings.

The second we start giving Dolphins rights is the second they rise out of the sea to kill us all

>>6311695

Its well established that they have complex central nervous systems.

They may not be attending university classes with you but the point of animal rights isn't reciprocity.

It's merely an appreciation for the suffering of other sentient creatures.

Dolphins can't get rights because they can't ask for them, lel

dolphins have excellent control over the vaginal muscles, they can squeeze and manipulate objects with them they can pick things up rotate them and set them down jsut with vajinal controll

dolphin peenesses are also prehincile and they too can grab things with them

dolphin sex is the best sex

>>6311699
i welcome our new dolphin overlords

>>6311707
right, dolphins are the only species besides humans that have sex for fun

>>6311706
sign language chimps have asked and where ignored

THE FOOLS!

>>6311715

>>6311715
many species do

dogs and monkeys just to name a couple

>>6311715
I think that all animals have sex for fun (or pleasure), and hardly any really know that they get a baby out of it until it happens

Is this a dolphin thread?

>>6311722
allot of species procreate purely by rape, prolly only fun for the males

>>6311724
>only fun for the males
still counts

>>6311715
That's actually not true. Many species have sex for fun. The idea that animals only have sex compulsively is non-sense from the last century.

>>6311652
As a sidebar to this discussion, I wonder if India is going to get into it with Japan over this.

>>6311733
>btw i am a gi
GET BACK IN THE KITCHEN

>>6311720
>>6311721
>>6311722
>>6311731
ok i got, my mistake

>>6311738
fuck you dolphin
fuck you whalu
http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s13e11-whale-whores

>>6311742
You might want to double check that conversation friendo

>>6311707
and dolphins can also operate a personal computer along with a mouse and keyboard with their genitalia

pls b gentile dear mammalian overlords

>>6311746
How fucking intelligent of you. No wonder the human race is so fucked up.

>>6311752
I typed this with my dick

also whats a yanhoho, pic reltaed my captcha

>>6311760
Your captchas are way fucking easier than mine. What the fuck

>>6311767
log into your google account

>>6311767
the internet gods love me

(or I click on them till I get one that I can read)
>uyponsu respect

What if dolphins are humans but we're in the sea only???

>>6311792
>mind = blown

>>6311792
what if humans and dolphins were once the same and than we forced the dolphins into the sea

>>6311689

>>6311759
I bet you're great at parties

Using information theory you can actually tell that dolphins speak in ways just like you and I do.

why are some dolphins so fat?
why would there caretakers let them get this way?

>>6311904
had me till the >dolphin rape cave

LOL

>>6311927

(2+1)/10… +1 because you made me laugh.

They're sentient and very emotional. As for their cognitive abilities, I would have to say that it is lacking compared to humans.

>>6311961
dolphins are smarter than some humans (sub-saharan africa ones).

-----------------

Dolphins are so intelligent they should be given the same status as humans, scientists are recommending.

The aquatic mammals are the world's second brightest creatures after humans - leapfrogging chimpanzees who have been pushed down to third in the cleverness stakes.

Experts say it is now time for dolphins to be treated as 'non-human persons' after research showed their brains have many features associated with high intelligence.

They claim it is cruel to keep such intelligent animals in amusement parks, or to kill them for food or by accident when fishing. Some 300,000 whales, dolphins and porpoises die in this way every year.

A study carried out by Lori Marino, a zoologist at Emory University in Atlanta, used MRI scans to map the brains of dolphin species and compare them to primates.

She said: 'Many dolphin brains are larger than our own and second in mass only to the human brain when corrected for body size.

'The neuroanatomy suggests psychological continuity between humans and dolphins and has profound implications for the ethics of human-dolphin interactions.'

Professor Marino found that the cerebral cortex and the neocortex of bottlenose dolphins were so large that 'the anatomical ratios that assess cognitive capacity place it second only to the human brain'.

The brain cortex also has the same complicated folds associated with human intelligence.

Dolphins have long been known for their intelligence. However it had been believed that chimps - who can attain the intelligence levels of three-year- old children - were the brighter of the two.

New studies imply that in fact dolphins - especially species such as the bottlenose - are the more intelligent. They have distinct personalities, a strong sense of the self and can think about the future.

They are also 'cultural' animals, with new types of behaviour being picked up by one dolphin from another.

>>6311973 (cont)

In one piece of research, bottlenose dolphins were shown to be able to recognise themselves in a mirror and use it to inspect various parts of their bodies.

Captive animals can also learn a rudimentary symbol-based language.

Dolphins' famed intelligence has also made its way into fiction.

In Douglas Adams's story, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, dolphins escape from Earth after humans fail to interpret their warnings that the planet is about to be destroyed.

Professor Marino will present her research at a conference in San Diego next month.

She will use it to argue that it is morally repugnant to mistreat dolphins.

Also at the conference will be Thomas White, professor of ethics at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles, who argues that dolphins deserve rights.

He said: 'The scientific research suggests that dolphins are "non-human persons" who qualify for moral understanding as individuals.'

>>6311652
I'm thinking it'd be cool to make a device that allows a dolphin to use some kind of submersible joystick to control a rover on land, and use it to explore areas otherwise unreachable to it, and see what land and the things on it are really like. Also, at this point, we ought to have speech recognition for dolphin language, and software that translates it into a human language to be sent out a speaker. There's already a project to do this with dogs, though so far it doesn't pick up much, and it uses EGG, I'd imagine it'd be easier to develop with an animal smart enough to understand what the project is actually trying to do.
http://nomorewoof.com/
Wondered about them learning Morse code before, but apparently only one person ever tried that, and despite it supposedly succeeding it was never repeated.

One thing is that if a non-human animal is considered a person, are they allowed to willingly perform for money? It'd be pretty cool to have dolphins that swim out form the open water, do some tricks, and get rewarded by having wages transferred to an account that they can access with a credit card attached to them like a GPS tracker. Also, if octopuses are sentient, the whole eating them whole thing is a bit awkward, but at least we put them under anesthesia for surgery.

And on a related note, one thing I've been thinking about is a documentary I saw once on trying to teach apes to type. They got bored and stopped cooperating after a while, but it was obvious the researchers were just teaching to the test without ever letting the apes ever apply their knowledge in a context where the meaning of the words actually mattered, which of course would make them seem like meaningless gibberish puzzles meant to entertain the researchers at the expense of the apes.

>>6311752
Wait, has someone already really taken a waterproof mouse and keyboard and let a dolphin at it?

>>6311770
:O
I'm always in incognito and half the time it seems like they're impossible.
thanks for the tip

>>6311713
source?

needs more John C. Lilly up in this thread.

dolphins rape people and they dont care what the specie is.

>>6312042
There are rapists dolphins, but the same can be said for humans. Unless there's evidence propensity to rape is universal among dolphins, they should be considered innocent until proven guilty.

Awareness/consciousness is a gradation. If there is a clean distinction it might be between self-replicating things and those that don't self-replicate. Even plants are conscious to a very minuscule degree. I would argue that plants are the happiest creatures. The less aware you are and the less you do, the fewer great highs you experience, yes, but also the less you suffer. Great highs are not required for happiness--you start to see that once you reject them. Lesser and lesser experiences become more and more satisfying--but the smallest possible amount of pain is.

>>6312053

That's silly, anon.

Would you get into a lion's den bbecause not all lions eat people? Of course not.

The fact is, we have to presume criminal intent on the part of everyone and everything that isn't inanimate, because of the potenial it will end up raping us.

>>6311672

consciousness has little to do with brain size.
A forest is not the sum of its trees.

so dolphins are smarter than chimps?

why doesn't indea declare corvids as non-human persons too

they are self-aware as well and are ~as smart as cetacea and apes, arguably more smart than them

>>6312151
not really
at least it's very difficult to prove
probably they are less smart than chimps, at least i never heard of dolphins learning asl

>>6312160

From all we've seen, they are smarter than chimps.

>tfw no qt nonhuman person gf

>>6312161
and what have we seen

>>6312160
If only they had fingers

>start reading thread
>"Oh, OP may spark a provocative conversation."
>HURR DURR DOLPHIN IQ
>nope, sage

>>6312158
>>6312160
Have corvids learned sign language? Why can't they get jobs, or write?

>>6311680
>they are quite cliquish
top kek

>>6312167
they could use something else instead of finger gestures, sounds, body gestures, w/e

try to teach dolphins some elaborated language to the higher degree than lucy had and then claim that they are smarter than chimps

>>6312169
you're just jelly dolphin's IQ's are higher than yours

we should setup dolphin telephone lines

>>6312169
>dat butthurt knowing that a fucking dolphin is smarter than your retarded ass

>>6312186
>telephone lines

Why not setup internet connection with a waterproof keyboard and some big-ass screen and teach them how to use it and what words mean. I wonder what they'd say.

>>6312158
Corvids are pretty smart, but I don't think they'd be on the same level as a dolphin or chimp. The only other species I could really see being recognized is maybe elephants, those fuckers can be pretty clever, and certain species of whale.

>>6311652
I don't understand why would extinction of dolphins be such a big thing. It is called natural selection and it happens all over the world at every minute. Like right now some little insect in Amazon goes extinct and nobody gives a shit

>>6312208
I would give all my shits if it would help, also they have to come get them from my septic system themselves.

>>6311672
It looks like the left and right cortex are more seperated than in a human brain. Do left brain/right brain paradigms exist in non-humans?

Why do people even need to ask this?
Of course they are.
Have you never had a pet?

>>6312270
>Do left brain/right brain paradigms exist in non-humans?
they don't even exist in humans

>>6312286
To be clear, I'm not talking about being left or right brain dominant, but , I know that different lobes on different parts of the brain serve different functions, and that the link in between the two sections of the brain plays an important part in overall brain functioning.

I guess what I'm asking is if the physical seperation on the two cortexes has any effect on overall cognition

>>6312010
wut..

>>6312289
it is, they separated the lobes of some people's brains in an experimental procedure, there were some strange strange side effects from it

>>6312274
This.

Much less intelligent organisms are conscious and self-conscious.

I'm sure dolphins also have an understanding of a hierarchy of consciousness.

Do Dolphins think God exists?

>>6311904
They're corrupting our chillens.

>>6312332
why is masturbation considered bad again?

>>6312348
>depleting your dopamine levels

>>6312304

Yeah apparently they ended up with two people in one body, more or less. It was an odd situation.

>>6312365
>>depleting your dopamine levels

learn2neurology

the only thing masturbation depletes in significant quantities is zinc. (about a quarter of your daily recommended intake per ejaculation)

perhaps what you meant is too much release of dopamine in a short amount of time can flood your Neurotransmitter receptors causing a insensitivity to dopamine.... but this is very unlikely from just masturbation.... for an example of this see the hedonistic treadmill >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill

>>6312411
So basically a lot of guy have a zinc deficiency?

>>6312449
Zinc is prevalent in cocoa, nuts, beans, wheat and meat, so you're unlikely to be deficient in zinc, provided you eat somewhat naturally

*metallic iceiry

>>6312458
>eat naturally

I think that implies 1/2 of the population is deficient.

>>6311652
I reallt appreciate that.

I don't care if India banned it or not, this is a very interesting question "DOES DOLPHINS HAVE - A "NON-HUMAN PERSONALITY ?".

>>6312487
Cats have personalities too. Doesn't make them smart.

>>6312564
The question is not if they are smart or not the question is if it has personality. Look at this rat robot, and tell me please, does it have personality or not ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PWXkcm9hso

>>6312564
And women don't, so it's hardly indicative.

>>6312571
women aren't smart either so I don't see your point

>>6312577

I agree. Instinctive manipulation is not the same as intellect. I won't argue against the inherent usefulness of one over the other, however.

>>6312208
insects dont rape

>>6312564
Potted plants have personality. It's about how you can relate to something, which can be a matter of communication but if you don't distinguish attribution from ability it really isn't important. Stuffed animals can have a personality too. It doesn't mean anything.

>>6311695
Because humans know what stickers are and peel them off with their fingers instead?

>>6311652
We can calculate their IQ: give them an IQ test and a pencil, wait for the appropriate amount of time, then evaluate.

an IQ of X = the ability to get X points on the IQ test. The correlation with various forms of intelligence is just that: correlation.

>>6312208
> naturalistic fallacy.
Shame on you, electroluminescent bunch of lanthanides ordered into concept-conveying patterns of light by silicon nano-structures.

>>6312610
Insects can't give consent. Therefore all insect sex is rape, by definition.

>>6312293
Probably shouldn't have put all that in one post, it's about three or four different things.

>>6312610
Insects rape all the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traumatic_insemination

>>6311652
>IQ
>significant "rational scale" like value

Pick one

>>6312622
>an IQ of X = the ability to get X points on the IQ test. The correlation with various forms of intelligence is just that: correlation.
We routinely use specially designed IQ tests for specific populations. For example, no researcher would argue that a blind person's inability to score any points on a test of visual pattern recognition means they're dumb. IQ researchers believe that they are measuring something real, and regardless of common myths concerning IQ testing, the evidence is in their favour.

Humans think they are the cleverest because they have built computers and machines etc

Dolphins are cleverer than humans because they just muck about in the water all day and just generally have a good time

>>6312657
It is possible they are more intelligent than us and I'm being serious

but the reason why we are on top is because we live under much more advantageous circumstances
1) we do not live in the water (anything high voltage and many other inventions wouldn't work)
2) we have hands

we are nothing but living beings who can shape their environment, without brains we wouldn't have the ideas and without hands we wouldn't have the means

dolhpins can all be Einsteins and maybe they are, but without hands what can they do? not much.
this is why we should respect them nevertheless

>>6312203
I think the reason they singled out dolphins was because they were particularly under threat from being mistreated in water parks that were planned in some cities.

>>6312203
crows are supposed to be p damn smart too

>>6312632
A better case of that of deaf people. Giving them standard verbal tests is no good, as they do not acquire non-signed language as fast as normal kids. However, they do just fine on non-verbal tests. Similarly with people with dyslexia, they don't do well on verbal tests, but do fine on non-verbal tests. Some gifted children have dyslexia, an spotting them in classes can be hard. But the non-verbal tests 'reads through' one might say.

>>6311652
>Are dolphins and whales conscious? Are they self-aware? How smart are they can can we calculate their IQ, for example?

We can estimate. Compare with the encephalization quotient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalization_quotient

Going with that, they are somewhere between chimps and humans. That would make them quite smart for an animal, we might even be able to teach them advanced language abilities, which chimps cannot be taught.

>>6312675

I agree. And I think that dolphins are capable of abstract thought too and that they learn faster than humans as well.

it's just that evolution didn't work out as well for their extremities as it did for us.

>>6312793
it sounds as some mumbo-jumbo with random coefficient to fix brain to body ratio in the 'correct' way
also small birds have 1/12 brain to body ratio, much higher than humans

>>6312807
You're not very ... scientific.

>>6312812
it's not me. read the article, it's a questionable concept which isn't even established enough for non-mammals

>>6312820
It is especially designed for mammals. That's it's point. There is no "random coefficient".

>>6312831
it uses some 'allometric effects'

>>6312835
That is WHAT IT DOES. EQ IS a way of dealing with allometric effects, instead of just assuming that brain weight should scale linearly with body weight.

EQ is derived by fitting a curve to a sample of bodyweight/brain weight pairs for a number of animals. Then, you can predict an animal's expected brain size based on it's body mass times the coefficient, and check how prediction and actual brain to body weight differ.

>>6312844
So... fat people are stupider. I always knew this was true but now I have scientific proof. Thanks!

>>6312844
as i said, some mumbo jumbo. some deliberate coefficient to fit already known facts

also not related to intelligence at all. the only real fact which we have - humans have that phony index quite higher than other animals. since we cannot check animal intelligence we cannot prove that index actually relates to it in any way

>>6312858
>some deliberate coefficient to fit already known facts
this is not how curve fitting works

>we cannot check animal intelligence
this is /sci/ not /philosophy/ what are you doing here

>>6312859
it's not philosophy
how do you prove that this coefficient is related to intelligence at all and you can use it to compare different animals? you cannot because we don't have real methods to estimate it yet (it should be some kind of unified tests or something)

>>6312844
Brain size does not equal intelligence.

>>6312866
>how do you prove that this coefficient is related to intelligence at all
I don't

> you can use it to compare different animals
There is nothing else you can do with it than compare animal species. That's it's sole function.

>you cannot because we don't have real methods to estimate it yet (it should be some kind of unified tests or something)
That you don't understand how to determine EQ, even though it's a comparatively simple procedure, says nothing about the quotient.

Look: YOU don't get what curve fitting is. YOUR math skills are lacking.

>>6312874
That's the point of EQ - that if we want to use a comparative physiological proxy, brain size itself, or even brain size divided by body size, is a bad one because it excludes allometric effects.

>>6312874
>Brain size does not equal intelligence.

Sure, but it's a pretty good indication of intelligence.

>>6312877
I'm the guy being annoyed at kitty being stupid throughout this conversation, and the very point of EQ is that across or within species, brain size itself is NOT a good indication of intelligence.

>>6312858
but people who are skinnier or have amputations become smarter

Look at Stephen Hawking, see how skinny that fucker is. And he's absolutely brilliant. It's because his brain is still big but his body is small so he has a good brain to body mass coefficient and that's what makes him smart.

>>6312874
females have smaller brains, they are less intelligent

It has been proven

>>6312881
>brain size itself is NOT a good indication of intelligence

Oh really? And you base this on what data exactly? Fact is that throughout human evolution, our brain size has been increasing and our intelligence has been growing. Coincidence? I think not.

Also, as you go down the animal kingdom, you can predict how intelligent the animal is and what you can teach it by looking at its brain size.

>>6312878
>There is nothing else you can do with it than compare animal species. That's it's sole function.

do you even read
obviously i meant to compare their intelligence, not to compare their sum random indexes

>That you don't understand how to determine EQ, even though it's a comparatively simple procedure, says nothing about the quotient.

dude, you don't even understand the simple idea why it's useless. leaving aside its using of that 'allometric' crap, we simply don't have enough data of animal intelligence to prove that this index is in any way related to it i.e. that the higher index some animal had the higher its cognitive abilities was. and if it is not related it's useless, at least for the matter of discussing animal intelligence

>>6312894
Because oh come on is all of /sci/ this stupid?

Giraffes have bigger brains than you.
Okay, you're stupid, so that may not mean much, but Giraffes also have bigger brains than chimps, and chimps are smarter than Giraffes.

http://www.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnana.2011.00029/full

>>6312900
> leaving aside its using of that 'allometric' crap
You still do not understand what EQ is and what allometrics means in this case. EQ is a way of dealing with allometric effects. Allometric effects exist anyways. The problem is how to deal with them?

> we simply don't have enough data of animal intelligence
You don't know it. Doesn't mean we don't have it.
(We have it.)

That you don't understand
- the difference between some opaque, arbitrary number and a rather simple quotient derived by curve fitting and a trivial transformation
- a measure and a claim
says little about EQ, and much about your utter incapability of science.

>>6312103
Sure I would.
Nothing to fear from lions if you're armed too. Give me a halberd and I'll go. I kid you not.

>>6312914
>We have it.

give me links to real comparative tests of animal intelligence which can prove that, say, whale is more clever overall than a chimp or wise versa.

>>6312110

Not disputing your claim on consciousness, but a forest is exactly the sum of its trees.

>>6312929
For simple qualitative data, just start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognition

There's even a homologue of g in mice:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763409000980

Furthermore, we have now spend centuries doing various cognitive tests with all forms of animals. We know how well animals perform on many tests, how well they can discriminate, remember and recognise. We don't have much data on whales, but we can compare humans, chimps, macaques, cats, rats and mice very well.

You didn't even bother to look.

Also, since you haven't yet understood what EQ even is, since apparently the task of fitting a curve is alchemy-like mysticism to you, I seriously doubt your ability to process any of this.

>>6312949
but what about human cats?

http://news.discovery.com/animals/pets/human-brain-cells-make-mice-smarter-130308.htm

we should put human brain cells in giraffes just to watch the wise beast lumber about in such an awkward body, unable to speak but totally understanding

also we should repeat the linked to experiment with dolphin brain cells and have competitions between human brained mice and dolphin brained mice

What is the point? It's not like dolphins will contribute to human civilization if you give them rights. This is just some spiritual crap.

>>6313004
Give them cellphones god dammit, they can operate them with there genitalia. We can let them have call center jobs, it will be better than the indians.

>>6312949
I expect g to be a common feature of most animals. At least the ones with relatively high EQ's.

>>6312874
Learn to use science language, not "does not equal". That's a confused usage from mathematics.

Brain size correlates medium to strongly with g in humans, about. 0.4 without correction for measurement error.

The human brain uses some 20% of the energy, but takes up about 2% of body weight. Clearly, this organ is very important, and evolution would not have selected for this highly expensive organ if it did not have large fitness effects.

Combine the two above, and then compare across-species. :)

>>6312411
>>6312449

yea, but if you eat your jizz afterwards its all allright!!!

>>6312949
they don't answer my question

>>6311695
I've had moments where I looked in the mirror and felt like I was looking at someone else, even though I knew it was me. I was kind of trying to imagine the perspective of someone else seeing me, as a stranger, and what I would think of me if I saw me on the street. Feels weird man.

>>6313151
kids, this is why you shouldn’t do drugs.

>>6311695
>easy self-aware test, show them a mirror

So spiders are self-aware?

Pic related.

>>6313100
because your questions are unscientific

>>6313222
no he trying to fight//intimidate his reflection

birds do this too but some become aware that the reflection is them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McNpUMpJxt8

>>6311695
>mirror test

Why do people still post this debunked pseudoscience? Can't you think of a more creative troll?

>>6313100
fucking namefags

I only accept dolphins as non-human persons if they're sent to court for rape.

All dolphins are rapists.

>>6313236
>All dolphins are rapists.

stupid meme is stupid.

>>6313253
>that image

We can determine whether a human brain is conscious by applying IIT which measures the integration of information in a system. The model is equally applicable to other species. All we have to do is run the numbers now. We don't understand everything about consciousness but we do know at what threshold of system complexity and in which types of systems it emerges. I haven't run the numbers for a dolphin brain, but I'm willing to guess it's way over the threshold since the people who came up with IIT have been discussing the possibility of consciousness in far simpler systems than a cetacean brain.

>>6313230
>no he trying to fight//intimidate his reflection

Which one is winning?

>>6313265
The idea is that consciousness isn't a binary thing. Consciousness doesn't have to imply smart on any scale that we can recognize.

>>6313289
I agree with this. There are definitely levels of consciousness. Even us humans can't really comprehend many things and we're quite primitive.

>>6313230
and some dogs don't even know what is part of them and what is not

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbn__Tta_0E

this would imply that dogs are stupider than rats

>>6313330
>this would imply that dogs are stupider than rats
to be fair, rats are pretty fucking smart.

>>6313231
>debunked pseudoscience
When was it debunked?

>>6313222
Intimidation is a classic example of utterly failing the mirror test
If you're too retarded to understand a simple experiment, maybe you should take a break from /sci/. A long break.

>>6313364
yeah, that'll show him.

>>6313364

>>6311695

The mirror test is controversial.

>>6313364

Im pretty sure a lot of animals would realize it was them in the mirror if exposed to it long enough.

For instance dogs fail the mirror test (which would imply they are not self aware), but at the same time dogs have an ego and pride, which obviously requires that they are self aware of their existance.

The mirror test can also depend on the animals visual abilities.

>>6313364

The african grey parrot can do math and abstract thinking (connecting numbers with colors), it can also learn human language, meaning of words, connecting words and sentences with tasks and his feelings, and yet he can't pass the mirror test.

>>6313435

>and here's some shit I completely made up or assume

>>6313449

assumed or made up what exactly?

>>6313435
Different breeds of dogs have very different intelligence and the the less intelligent ones tend to fail the test.

>>6313461
Border Collies are more intelligent than some humans. Sure, they might not be able to speak but they can accomplish tasks that some humans can't. And they learn better as well.

>>6313461

And the more intelligent ones tend to fail also.

Babies also tend to fail the test, which doesn't mean they aren't self aware.

What is more likely is that the babies and animals don't have a concept of mirrors and reflections in their brain and develop it when exposed to them.


Do you think that a paleolithic man that saw his reflection in the water for the first time knew it was him in the reflection? He probably didn't.

>>6313465

>Border Collies are more intelligent than some humans.

Let me guess, niggers right?

gtfo to /pol/

>>6313470

You're a racist asshole.

>>6313469
i dont think infants are selfaware, they are just meat bags who know how to scream when certan conditions exist

many animals know how to walk when they are born, even infant kangaroos are more capable than infant humans and they are born at the age of 31 days old

>>6313469
>Babies also tend to fail the test, which doesn't mean they aren't self aware.
But they aren't self aware. Have you even seen a fucking baby? Even my dumb cat is smarter than a newborn.

>Do you think that a paleolithic man that saw his reflection in the water for the first time knew it was him in the reflection? He probably didn't.
"At first", probably didn't. But when he moved he realized that the reflection mimics his movement and he might be seeing himself.

Go back to /reddit/.

>>6313479

>many animals know how to walk when they are born, even infant kangaroos are more capable than infant humans and they are born at the age of 31 days old

What does that have to do with the subject? Evolution worked that way and there is no need for a baby to walk when it is born so it doesn't.

And how does the ability to walk or not to walk relate to self awarness?

>>6313499
babies are bags of meat, nothing special about them until later post birth abortions should be legal

>>6313479
>i dont think infants are selfaware

Children pass mirror test at the age of 18 months or so.

>>6313435

you just attribute dogs human features which they don't actually have, it's called anthropomorphism, kind of common psychological trap. not having self-awareness doesn't mean that the animal doesn't have personality. animal personality it's some differences in its behavior which look as personality in your eyes. animals have personality in the very same sense as cars may have personality to their owners. dogs may have some features which you can interpret as 'pride' but you would be wrong if you imagine that their thought process is in any way similar to yours. no animal has spoken language so they don't think in words (it's the reason why they cannot have abstract thinking), most of animals including dogs don't have even elemental thinking i.e. they don't understand connections between different things, all their behavior when they obey your commands or avoid danger etc is based solely on reflexes and instincts, they don't have self-awareness so they don't distinguish themselves and the world. they are just like a very complicated computer program which can only react and change its behavior. they do have emotions, but emotions by themselves are just some signals, it's your conscious reaction to them makes them what they are for you

>>6313485

So if your observation of a baby shows it is non self aware and it doesn't pass the test, and then the observation of a grown dog shows he is self aware and a lot more intelligent than a baby, but he also doesn't pass the test.

The test is obviously flawed and cannot be taken as a definite merit.

>Go back to /reddit/

u wut?

>>6313512
>you just attribute dogs human features which they don't actually have, it's called anthropomorphism, kind of common psychological trap
Dogs were DELIBERATELY BRED to be more like humans.

Go away, furfag.

>>6313516
how can you know that you dog is self-aware if it doesn't pass the test

because you want it to be self-aware?

also dogs are actually kind of stupid animals, they are domesticated after all

>>6313519
>Dogs were DELIBERATELY BRED to be more like humans.
omg, whom i speak with...

>>6313512

>no animal has spoken language so they don't think in words (it's the reason why they cannot have abstract thinking)

This is absolutely wrong, because they can, look the african grey parrot.

> most of animals including dogs don't have even elemental thinking i.e. they don't understand connections between different things,

This is also wrong.
Here is a link of dogs using the subway in Moscow, there are numerous videos of it and reports.

http://www.thefeaturedcreature.com/2013/04/stray-dogs-of-moscow-have-learned-to-take-the-subway-photos-story-are-incredible.html

Also everything you said in your post can be applied to humans also.

There is fundamentally no difference, and the only logical answer is that self awareness comes with a certain amount of intelligence.

>>6313529
parrots just imitate human speech
it's like to call a computer sapient because it can speak with you and even to be interactive
parrots don't think in words

reflexes can lead to a very complicated behavior, visit a circus

obviously that self-awareness comes with some intelligence but dogs are too stupid to get it

>>6313520

>how can you know that you dog is self-aware if it doesn't pass the test

You are talking as this test is a definite accepted test, while in reality it isn't widely accepted by neurologists.

Obviously through observation because you can't get in the animals head.

For example a dog showing characteristics that are above insticts and just reaction, example is a dog showing shame. Now you can say that is just me interpreting shame and projecting, but then you can also say that when i see another person showing shame.

>>6313544

>parrots just imitate human speech

you didn't even look it up. The african grey can connecting meaning to words (say i am hungry when he is hungry) , he can count, he can to basic math like adding two numbers, he can also associate numbers with colors which is abstract thinking.

Go look it up and then come back

>>6313544

>reflexes can lead to a very complicated behavior, visit a circus

So a dog who goes to a subway station, waits for the train, goes in, leaves at the exact specific station, eats in the center all day, and goes back with the train to the subburbs, that are just reflexes?

He obviously understands a lot about his environment and connects a lot in his head.

>>6313529
>http://www.thefeaturedcreature.com/2013/04/stray-dogs-of-moscow-have-learned-to-take-the-subway-photos-story-are-incredible.html

this is fucking incredible.

>>6313544
>parrots just imitate human speech

Yet many parrots can differentiate shapes, colors, and speech patterns.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/10/science/10cnd-parrot.html?pagewanted=all

this is NOT IMITATION! this is the beginning of abstract thought.

>>6313562
Found a recent video of the same prof talking about her parrots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8LepYR8v9A

parrots are clearly capable of abstract thought… a limited one but still abstract thought.

>>6313569
>>6313562

They obviously can and it is a known fact for quite some time now, but still that doesn't stop morons with a cartoon knowledge of parrots to claim they are just repeating, the same people who take the mirror test seriously.

When people put dogs to the mirror test did it ever occur in their heads that maybe the dog, am animal that will often eat shit, doesn't give a fuck that it has a ribbon on his head?

fucking kitty got rekt and retreated to his autismall cave

>>6311973
Oy vey we are all equal

>>6313577
They may not be able to think about the universe but they can do effectively what we do all the time.

>>6313512
>many animals have spoken language

http://animal.discovery.com/tv-shows/wild-kingdom/videos/prairie-dog-language.htm

this shit's awesome

>>6312987
Aw shit what if we give a dog some human brain cells. Be cool to have a smart as fuck doggy.

>>6312110
consciousness has nothing to do with anything, as far as i can tell
give me a link to any sort of attempt at solving the hard problem of consciousness that isn't "well it could possibly be emergent" or sidestepping the problem completely

>>6313560
incredible = not credible

>>6313550
no, you completely missed the part of my post that interaction of that kind doesn't mean much. it's basically the same as any moderately complicated reflex, it doesn't matter if it build cubes or sounds in some order. well, may be the parrot has elemental thinking, anyway it operates those words as something external, it doesn't build its thoughts with them. afaik chimps who learned asl were the closest ones to abstract thinking

>>6313558
yes, it does it all on reflexes. yet again, they may be pretty elaborate and look like intelligent behavior. there were even some scientists (behaviorists) who tried to explain human intelligence with reflexes. animal behavior by itself doesn't tell us of its mechanics, for instance animals can use tools with instincts like some birds, with reflexes as some monkeys and with elemental thinking like some apes. reflexes are formed with the trial and error method, i think you easily can imagine how a series of tries and errors may shape the dog's behavior

>>6313562
differentiating by itself means nothing.

damn, why should i even explain this basic shit. at least that guy who promoted that phony index didn't make me feel like i'm surrounded with a bunch of school boys

>>6313948
>incredible = not credible

Are you trying to sound profound or just stupid?

>>6313330
>this would imply that dogs are stupider than rats
Dogs aren't very intelligent. Even pigs are smarter.

>>6313476
What's it like being this much of a faggot?

Shouldn't it be easy to test for dolphin communication?

Example experiment:
Two dolphins, dolphin A and dolphin B
Two switches, switch 1 and switch 2
Two signals, signal 1 and signal 2
Make dolphin A associate signal 1 with switch 1, and signal 2 with switch 2 (eg, if he sees signal 1 and hits switch 1, he gets food)
Then keep dolphin A and dolphin B separate, but show dolphin A one of the two signals
Then put dolphin A and dolphin B in the same tank but separated with metal grating
Present dolphin B with the two switches
If he hits the correct switch, both dolphins get food
If dolphins are so smart, wouldn't dolphin A be able to "tell" dolphin B which switch to press?

Also I feel it would be trivial to expand the experiment to test more elaborate forms of communication. Has this sort of test been done before?

>>6314258
dolphins have been shown conclusively to communicate

No nobody has followed the experimental procedure you just pulled out of your ass

>>6314269
what's the known extent of dolphin communication?

>consciousness is an all or nothing phenomenon

holy shit /sci/... and you guys think you are intelligent.

>>6314273
they have unique names, they talk to each other by name, they talk about third parties by name when they are not around

blaa blaa ikd google it yourself bitch

>>6312949
That paper turned out to be very interesting. Thanks anon!

>>6311652
>Are dolphins conscious?
I'd classify them as "pre-sentient". They have the potential to be fully sentient, but they're not quite there yet. Not having hands and living in the ocean probably has some bearing on all that.

>>6311652
>India Declares Dolphins & Whales As ‘Non-Human Persons
In related news, USA Supreme Court declares Corporations as non-human persons
Yew-Ess-Aie!
Yew-Ess-Aie!
Yew-Ess-Aie!

>>6314530
>that fucking pic

such good, anon.

>>6314530

… or when they lock up a dolphin for rape.

Id say dolphins are smartest animal after humans

>>6313956

>"Animals can't understand words"
>given hard proof they can
>"that doesn't mean anything"
>"it doesn't build its thoughts with them"

>"Animals can't into abstract thinking, only reflexes"
>given proof they can
>"it's a relfex, we are just interpreting it that way"

>"differentiating by itself means nothing."
>source clearly shows the parrots doing a variety of tasks that are considered abstract thinking besides differentiating

>>6314530
The basis for allowing corporations to assert protection under the U.S. Constitution is that they are organizations of people, and the people should not be deprived of their constitutional rights when they act collectively. In this view, treating corporations as "persons" is a convenient legal fiction which allows corporations to sue and to be sued, provides a single entity for easier taxation and regulation, simplifies complex transactions which would otherwise involve, in the case of large corporations, thousands of people, and protects the individual rights of the shareholders as well as the right of association.

Because of this, a corporation can be held liable under both civil and criminal law. Individual employees, managers, and directors are liable for their own malfeasance or lawbreaking while acting on behalf of the corporation, but are not generally liable for the corporation's actions.

>>6313516

I think you're confusing "self-aware" with "we should let this live"

Just because a babby is stupid doesn't mean we should kill babbies. Just because a dog is smart doesn't mean we should let it vote.

It's okay anon, the world isn't full of extremes. You don't have to go hard one way or another.

people keep arguing with the assumption that consciousness and by extension a sense of self necessitates relatively high intelligence.

while the two may share a common source, there is no empirical evidence to suggest this is the case.

it is very possible that animals with even relatively low intelligence may be capable of some abstractions and not others.

>tfw no dolphin lover / trip partner

>>6313330
>the dog has alien hand (leg) syndrome
>he's mentally ill
>everyone's just laughing

>>6315879
>the people who decide the corporation's actions are not generally liable for the corporation's actions
Corporate Law is the best Law money can buy.

>>6315920
wtf man?

>>6316789
Employees are responsible for actions they carried out. So a manager who didnt do nuffin wont get charged simply for associating with the corrupt ones.

>>6315879
>should not be deprived of their constitutional rights when they act collectively.


Hmm… so how many dolphins would equal a single person?

Could we use something like a 3/5ths compromise for them?

>>6313447

That is mere "parroting"

Of course Dolphins and Whales are very smart

The thing that separates us is our advanced vocal chords and opposable thumbs

all they can really do underwater is flap around and feel stupid

in the meantime we were going from cave, to hut, to house, to palace, to skyscraper

What I want to know is if they have a history. Passed down orally, of course.

Are they conscious? I think they are because they have been shown to be racist and nothing says conscious or intelligent like being able to discern minor and superficial differences and developing a deep hatred based on those differences. And acting on those differences to the point of violence. Because tursiops dolphins will kill porpoises for hatred and other creatures for sport. And Orcas will too.

>that feel when you will never again be able to look at flipper without imagining him wearing a pointy white hat

>>6317436
>Employees are responsible for actions they carried out.
... in theory, yes; in practice, no.
Thus the body of Corporate Law.

>>6312675
I have to disagree and in general with the gist of the thread.

If they had our level of intelligence they'd be doing something more than eating fish and rape. Humans without arms and legs still better lives than dolphins.

>>6318567
Take those militarised dolphins. If you took a human from another country who you couldn't speak to, you could still manage to condition them to be a soldier or whatever for your army, but the difference is when you send the abducted human on his mission he would run away and never return, the dolphin just does his job.

>>6318480
Well what you do is just "humaning", it's not real consciousness like an octopus's.

>>6318813
Cephalocentric fallacy.

>on the internet nobody knows you're an octopus

>>6313395
>saving thumbnails

>>6319354
Octopuses are smart too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZldMsc84TTo

Amazing.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-octopuses-smart/

Smarter than manny humans.

>>6320043
>>6319354
octopus thread?
> Some would let themselves be captured, only to use the net as a trampoline. They'd leap off the mesh and onto the floor—and then run for it. Yes, run. "You'd chase them under the tank, back and forth, like you were chasing a cat," [Middlebury College researcher Alexa]

>>6320066
moar octopuses facts!

hell, any smart animal facts please.

ps; pre-emptive grammar lesson: it's octopuses, not octopi.

>>6320079
I didn't even get it wrong this time.

>>6320066
what this image is referencing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanket_octopus
Blanket octopuses are immune to the poisonous Portuguese man o' war, whose tentacles the male and immature females rip off and use for defensive purposes.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080102230427/http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Support/AdoptSpecies/AnimalInfo/GiantOctopus/default.cfm
> The giant octopus has the largest central nervous system—mostly brain—of all invertebrates, rivaling that of many vertebrates, including birds and fish.
> They have been taught to unscrew lids from food jars and have been observed learning by watching the behavior of other octopuses.
> octopuses have been known to climb aboard fishing boats and open fish holds full of crabs or to break out of aquariums to prow around rooms for tasty inhabitants in other tanks.

Giant shrimp works on Rubik's cube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uTdTRXNdEY

> Common octopuses will collect crustacean shells and other objects to construct fortresses, or "gardens," around their lairs
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2009/12/14/a-tool-wielding-octopus-this-invertebrate-builds-armor-from-coconut-halves/
> The dexterous octopuses were observed stockpiling discarded coconut halves, carrying them (with some difficulty), and later using the oversize pieces to build a protective armored covering, reports a team of researchers in Australia and the U.K. in a paper published online today in Current Biology.

>>6314358
Sapient, you mean sapient yes? my dog was sentient right up until he died

>>6311703
to be blunt, why should the suffering of animals bother me, when I rarely think about the suffering of humans? I'm not being edgy, it's just impossible to thoroughly care about all human suffering in anything beyond the extreme abstract, given that there are some seven billion of us.

>>6312657
yeah, but it's unlikely humans will be driven to extinction by dolphins, and I can't think of a more important practical exam.

>>6320112
>when I rarely think about the suffering of humans

Psychopath diagnosed. People, and I use that term lightly, scare me.

>>6311685
>>6311691
i lol'd

>>6320121
did you read the rest of my post? seriously there are seven billion humans in this place and most of us can't even be arsed to care about people outside our groups, and it's flat out impossible and impractical to care about humans except in the extreme abstract.

>>6312622
>electroluminescent bunch of lanthanides ordered into concept-conveying patterns of light by silicon nano-structures.

In layman's terms, please.

>>6320130

your post hardly suggests it's impossible.

yes, it requires a bit of abstract thinking although honestly not much to appreciate the interests of other living things.

all over the world have had empathy for the suffering of other humans, and even animals, for thousands of years, from the celts to the romans to the chinese. It's not a modern thing. in classical India it was part of law of the land that then became tradition and religion.

simply admitting it is a flaw isn't really grounds for dismissing its importance either.

>>6312622
>>6320264
"electroluminescent bunch of lanthanides ordered into concept-conveying patterns of light by silicon nano-structures."

I think I get it - the dude was cursing his computer screen, for the text read on it was the source of his frustration.

>>6313253

That GIF's fucking cool, it's a good thing they're harmless

>>6320285
oh yeah?

>>6320319
>implying that's a Harvestmen

>>6320392

>>6320426
KILL IT KILL IT KILL IT

>>6320426
Wat
Is that a leech or some form of insect larvae erupting from the mantis's abdomen?

>>6320436
I wouldnt be too worried

>>6312793
>Cats are 1.00
>The scale is based on cats

Pigs can play video games and understand how mirror works too, unlike dogs.

Dolphins are a lie perpetuated by the veganocracy to get people to stop eating tasty seafood.

>>6321314
yet they don't recognise themselves

magpie master race

>>6321346
magpies don't recognize themselves either.

>>6321370
>Eurasian Magpie, which is one of the few animal species known to be able to recognize itself in a mirror test.[1]

>>6321385
that's a flawed study.

>>6321341

dolphin meat tastes like shit.

>>6321269
>>The scale is based on cats

We should rename it catscale and unit would be 1 manx.

>>6322455
Japanese like to eat shit

>Gimme high five for finding shit eating Japanese girl in picture with out nudity because some how that makes it work safe on 4chan.

>>6322467
good job, sir
you have gone up and beyond the call of doody

sure is anthropocentrism in here

>>6322774
>implying intelligence is not anthropocentric.

>>6311672
The only difference I see here is that the one on the left looks tasty as fuck.

>>6317436
Funny, there's another organization that operates on that same principle.

>>6315869
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie
Q.E.D

>>6323646
How is a philosophical zombie related?

I think all animals have conscious but never really have the necessity (or will) to stop and think about their own consciousness like humans do.

>>6324920
He meant that only humans are special snowflakes enough for sapience.

>>6311908
20% cooler

>>6312332
>4chan slang used in anti-selfpleasure campaign.

this is truely the end of days.

>>6315920
This is now a John C. Lilly thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVf81iwSXT4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDAmktAAcno

>>6326873
>interspecies communication
>dolphin communications books

wtf man?

>>6313253

>>6320436
>>6320434
>>6320426
Horsehair worms.

Terrifying.

>>6327276
>Horsehair worms

Have you seen the movie The Thing? That's what that reminds me of.

>>6313222
Uhhh... that spider is making a threat display, and because that's a mirror, what it's seeing is another spider making a threat display.

I think the spider actually jumps at the mirror, too.

>>6313289

Yeah, you remember this the next time you fall into nonREM sleep.

Fact is IIT can predict whether a patient under anesthesia is conscious. Go to /x/ if you want to argue endlessly about what consciousness is. Here we are interested in prediction and IIT does a fair job of predicting when the brain states associated with the wakeful state of awareness people associate with consciousness. If IIT determines a dolphin brain meets the same criteria, chances are it is also conscious irregardless of what consciousness is or how many 'levels' it has.

>>6327310
Check this out.
http://www.biolbull.org/content/215/3/216.full

>>6312627
pretty hot

>>6311652
Yes

This gif is enough proof.

>>6311974
Shut the fuck up. the answer is 42

>>6327971
>the word manifesto being used outside of anything primarily French
Immediately closed.

So then can enslave their own people but not their dolphins. Good one currymunchers

>>6312332
Maximum awkward

>>6328334
Jesus… what the fuck man?!?!? It's the dolphin version of fleshlight! CRAZY!

This can only end in tears.

>>6313253
>cuddling with your spiderbros
>some guy starts poking our cuddle mass
what an asshole

>>6328787
Of joy.

>>6314258
Something like this already happened.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1047212/Billy-dolphin-teaches-flippered-friends-walk-water.html

>>6328836
The circular bubble trick is also taught from dolphin to dolphin. Dolphins aren't the only animals that teach each other stuff though, anyone who thinks this is new is living in the 30s.

>>6328836
>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1047212/Billy-dolphin-teaches-flippered-friends-walk-water.html

fascinating