/sci/ - Science & Math

Yes.

>>6239763
Politics is an actual skill.

The skillset required to be good at politics - not in the sense of "getting ahead" but in the sense of "be good at running a country" - does not overlap very much with the skillset required to be a good scientist.

It's like asking if we should replace doctors with mathematicians, because mathematicians are skilled, smart, intelligent people and we think doctors charge too much.

>>6239769
Political Science major detected

>>6239770
Sorry, incorrect. Try recalibrating.

>>6239763
Scientists and military must combine powers and technocratic revolution must take place.

>>6239769
>does not overlap
why is merkel so fucking good then? also thatcher.

She is no scientist. She is a desk criminal, controlled by a transatlantic Westpoint doctrine.

>>6239770
but he's right.
Do I want an average engineer up there negotiating hard ball with China? You bet you're fucking ass I don't.

>>6239822
I don't want an average ANYBODY being a politician. As the other person said, you're wanting someone knowledgeable in the area for those sorts of negotiations, which is why most cabinet level positions are specific. But for things such as President and congresspersons, it should not be limited to lawyers and businesspeople, occasionally medical doctors.

OP, the problem is the amount of money needed to get into politics. It's easy for an incompetent businessperson or ambulance chaser to afford what's needed. It's difficult for someone that's paid much less to be as successful and in such numbers without serious campaign reform.

>>6239822
I would be very happy with merkel or Thatcher negotiating. Both chemists.

The president or prime minister should have at least 3 master degrees in respectively a natural science, a social science and a discipline of humanities.
Would be cool to have a president with a physics degree, economics degree and English literature degree from Harvard.
That would be so ubermensch.

>mfw the heads of al-qaida are pediatricians
>mfw Bashar al-Assad is an ophtalmologist

>>6239872
>The president or prime minister should be an autistic NEET

Nah. Personal skills, experience, and management/leadership ability matter far more in politics than education does.

No, they will waste billions of dollars on stupid pet projects that don't mean anything.

>Should funding go towards health care or my experiment to see how grass works in space
>grass funding!

Osama bin Laden had a degree in civil engineering.

Ahmadinejad as a professor of chemical engineering.

formal education is fucking retarded and will be abandoned as the standard for determining someones potential, seriously a degree for most things means fucking shit

they should instead be the most autistic autodidacts and rule over their territory like charles the second

Please, plenty of the old Soviet party heads were scientists and engineers by training.

Doesn't tell you shit about their ability to make good decisions in a data-sparse, high-pressure, heavily social system of conflicting interest groups.

Their ability to get a science degree speaks to their inherent intelligence and ability to integrate new information, but it still doesn't tell you whether they have decent judgement.

Each of a nation's problems should be handled by a person who is an expert in the relevant field. Countries should not be run by a single generalist politician who in reality knows very little. Admittedly, there should be people whose job is to make speeches and shake hands, etc, but these people would be mainly figureheads who explain the work and policies of the real leaders to the masses. This is already happening in the US, but the system is built in such a way to make a full division of labor/specialization in government difficult if not impossible.

Problem is that the kind of people who are motivated enough to get power are typically sociopaths.

Separation of powers, checks and balances, a strong middle class with a vested interest in maintenance of the social contract - boring shit like that it what actually matters in order to try to keep the Caesars at bay.

>>6239763
You will notice that scientists who rise to leadership positions do not tend to become extraordinarily capable leaders.

For instance, the director of NIH is an accomplished scientist - but is the NIH really governed so much better than other agencies?

The only real way scientists could do a better job at governing is if they have better character and work ethic - but I don't think there's a reason to believe this would be the case. Especially after you corrupt science by making it a ladder to power - you would ruin science and government both when you encourage psychopathic assholes to go into science without any desire to do actual science, and only trying to increase their power.

>>6239965
"Nation's problems" are usually problems of policy making, and anyhow, policy making is the major tool a government has for fixing problems. Politicians and bureaucrats are already experts in policy making.

The problem is that incentives for politicians are not very well set up. Often, the decision that is in the leader's best interest is not in the public's best interest. It's not about who is getting to be in charge, it's about the checks and balances (or lack thereof) acting on those in charge.

>>6239763 For this we'd also need a system based on science. ie what we now have as financial abstractions of reality would have to be abolished. This is also the basic concept of TZM, a short introduction can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vNCpGaxWno

Countries should be run by those that create incredible things, regardless of if it's scientific, commercial, industrial, hell, even artists would make better leaders of our countries than the smooth talkers that end up getting elected more often than not.

>Margaret Thatcher
>Chemistry degree
>not based

you're also dumb as fuck if you think being president or whatever requires any actual skills. Any one of us here could easily be president (as in do the actual job, I don't mean the getting elected part).

that fat sasauge eater did a phd and forgot to keep researching, hardly a scientist

>>6239886
>>6239950
>>6240799

very true

all the most based extremist leaders were autistic enough to have STEM degrees

>>6239888
>being educated means you're autistic
and people like you can vote

>people who spend 10 years in training for something a lawyer or a doctor considers his spare change
>have to be run by adult business-folks who take the lion's share, and keep them away from real decisions
>over 100 years of history, and engie organizations are still a laughing stock of professionals

these guys can't even run themselves. why would they run someone else is beyond me.

>>6239763
I'd rather go with librarians. They could keep their writings, and thus the legal code, relatively organized, and be able to quickly find information on nearly any area of knowledge required.

>>6239763
>chemistry
>science

>>6240902
>physics
>chemistry

>>6240902
>biology
>science

>physics
>science

>computer science
>science

Get it, guys?! Nothing is really science!

>>6240940
Is science an illusion of consciousness?

>Bashar al-Assad is an ophtalmologist

Dr. med. Ursula von der Leyen
Federal Minister of Defence

confusing times ahead

>>6240942
Medical doctors are not scientists. A service is not a science. They mindlessly apply information they memorized over several years. They do not understand where that information came from and neither do they contribute to furthering our knowledge.

>>6240946
yes, they are. you need biology and chemistry to be a doctor. biology and chemistry ARE sciences.

Scientists are nothing special. They are normal prostitutes selling their skills to the highest bidder.

>>6240960
Barely passing one introductory bio and chem course on freshman level doesn't make you a scientist, you uneducatd dumbfuck.

>>6239779
Thatcher? She was a complete and utter cunt.

>angela merkel
>ruined europe
>good politicians
>people's party

>>6240971
No, but studying science for years does you retard. Nearly all medical students have degrees in biology and chemistry. Are chemists and biologists not chemists?

>>6239822
Thats funny since China is probably the only country run by a bunch of scientists and business men.

>>6240986
>chemists

haha. I meant scientists.

>>6240986
>Nearly all medical students have degrees in biology and chemistry.

No, they fucking don't. They are students. They are studying medicine. That doesn't require any degree.

>>6240986
Sweet, I had chemistry and biology classes in high school. Who said mathematicians aren't also scientists!

Eggheads are not necessarily good politicians. I would prefer a political historian as head of state, someone like Howard Zinn (A People's History Of The United States).

>>6240971
Idk how medicine is done in your country, but here, in the first 2 years of med school, students are taking basically only science classes (many sub-fileds of biology-Genetics, Micorbilogy, Anatomy, etc. , Biochemistry, Biophysics, things like that.) So I would say that they have (or at least, should have) a better grasp on this subjects than that of a freshman.

>>6240941
Or is consciousness an illusion of science?

Technocracy should be build upon valuing ACHIEVEMENTS not formal education.

Example: Only people who successfully managed to get a big company out of financial trouble should be considered for ministry of finance.

A prime minister should have experience and achievements in running a city first before he starts governing entire country.

All countries should be run by people who actually care for the nation

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~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ you are a strong white man ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ who don’t need no democracy ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
╚═════════════════ ೋღღೋ ════════════════╝

>>6241076
A "strong white man" doesn't post girly signature on an anime forum. In fact he would be appalled by the degeneracy of such a forum and wouldn't waste his time here at all. You are a pathetic delusional neckbeard and under an actual fascist government you would be among the first victims.

>>6241076
since when did this shitposting became a thing on sci?

>>6241082
>This is what autism does to your brain

>>6240982
poorfag northerner dectected

the only good leaders are leaders that dont want to lead

>>6240998
You need an undergrad degree to get into med school, most med school students have Biochem, Chemistry or Biology degrees

>>6241182
Not everyone is amerifat and not everyone shares your perverted educational system. In the civilized countries you just sign up for studying medicine as your main subject.

>>6239763

running a country is a full time job. so if you're running a country you have no time for research/experiments and are therefore no longer a scientist but a politician, and you know, we have those.

>>6241184
>Not everyone is amerifat and not everyone shares your perverted educational system.

>requiring the people that will be working on the health of the country for the rest of their lives to get decent groundings in science
>perverted education system

Okay.

>>6241213
Doctors don't need to understand science. They need to understand medicine. The time they are forced in your country to waste with an "undergrad degree", that time medicine students in europe spend learning medicine. That's why american doctors are less qualified.

I feel like engineering and it's problem solving techniques are starting to penetrate a bunch of different fields right now, even economics with things like financial engineering.

Maybe Political Engineering is next.

>>6241250
just a scheme of technical univs to get more students.

>>6241267
Does it have to be, though? Can't we treat the population as a system and use systems engineering? Modified, of course.

I'm not saying it's easy, but I don't think it's impossible.

>>6240827
Degrees of all types - even Master's - don't necessarily mean you have mastered the content or are able to apply what you have learned elsewhere. In politics, the ability to negotiate and assuage others is often far more important than book knowledge.

>>6241240
medicine isn't just memorizing facts and spitting them out. autistic regurgitation of pathophysiology isn't going to save a patient.

>>6241290
>autistic regurgitation of pathophysiology isn't going to save a patient.

That's why medicine doesn't work and we need homeopathy.

>>6239763

How would that be any better than having countries run by lawyers?

the world should be run by intelligent people.

so that rules out OP.

scientists have no capacity to manage a nations resources or political standings. if you mean who makes the decisions, then yes, intelligent people such as scientists would be the best to rule.

i think it should be a multilateral council of think tanks, involving but not limited to
>philosophers
>psychologists
>doctors
>scientists
>multiple representatives of the common man
>military leaders

>>6241358
>the world should be run by intelligent people.
>philosophers

This is bait.

>>6241362
>intelligent people

i mean intelligent philosophers.

>>6241366
That's a contradiction.

>>6239769
> an actual skill

>>6239899
Actual a scientific evaluation of facts would favor....the opposite of what you are foolishly thinking.

>>6239763
Yes.
Technocracy would be the best possible ruling form. There shouldn't be one person in charge of everything, but a council of a few experts in every field.
Democracy just doesn't work when the broad masses don't know what's best for themselves.

A Technocracy Technate would be a great form of government. A post-scarcity, non-monetary, apolitical system, meritocratic system.

Probably more chance of collectivist stability than a Communist system because it shits all over Marx's Labour Theory of Value and allows for states (technates).

>>6241398
I agree.

>>6241367
alright. whos you're favorite philosopher?

>>6241381
would that council include a philosopher?

>merkel

lol Neuland

>>6241442
No, only actual scientists and maybe a few economists.

>>6241439
Richard Dawkins

>>6241447
who will be their moral compass?

>>6241449
im proud of you, not only did you not take the bait, but a man like him would be a great leader.

the thing is, scientists only KNOW science, and what advances science. they could be the greatest friend or the greatest enemy of the earth. without limitations, a scientist might do some crazy ass shit without even thinking about the repercussions, because "its in the name of science". While advancement is necessary, there needs to be some type of balance to make sure that scientists are acting in good measure. even though being scientists they look at every possible outcome good and bad, it would help also if they werent paid off by corporations to disregard safety.

how would a society function where logic and reason are the prime motivators? Would average people be as vain as we are now? would corporations exist? would consumerism exist?

I think that the possibility of a scientific technocracy, would greatly increase the amount of "thinkers" and "philosophers" among average folks. putting their thoughts into something more than what shoes to buy, or what vacation to take. when we are led by example of taking in every factor of our lives, and not just doing as we please, there will be a greater capacity to engage oneself in deep thought.. so that "philosophy" isnt something that is reserved for special peopel or professors, and could be utilized by everyone.

>>6240940
You cannot know nothing, therefore you cannot know science

I'll be waiting for my Nobel peace prize.

>>6241462
Scientific advancement and the riches and joys it brings and the pleasure that comes from intellectual enrichment.
>the thing is, scientists only KNOW science
That's bullshit. You're speaking like scientists are some kind of narrow minded robots. They can grasp the concept of consequence just as well as other people. Also, even if you do want to "keep scientists in check", the last person who should be doing that is some clueless politician.

>>6240902
Merkel is a physicist not a chemist, you fucking retard!

>>6241494
>philosophers
>politicians

never said nothin about politicians

>>6241462
Is that a joke? Any idiot can do philosophy; only scientists can do science.

No they should be ran by historians that double in law.

You want people who are aware of human history, multiple cultures and the evolution of law in general.

>>6241565

Any idiot can do science, but only one trained in science can do it well. It's the same with philosophy.

>>6241565
no shit faggot. thats why the fuck i was encouraging philosophy for EVERYONE. not just "some special professor". but to actually put into practice ones philosophy, not anybody can do that. it Does take someone who is willing to commit their lives to wisdom. scientists dont have wisdom, they have knowledge. it takes wisdom to make sure that knowledge is used with good temperance.

>>6241581
a true philosopher cant "train" to be one, its just a part of their being.

>>6239763
No, they should be run by robots.

>>6241587

A good philosopher is naturally observant and analytical, but he is also trained in history of philosophy, rhetoric, logic, and critical thinking. As a result he may contribute to philosophical discourse.

A poor philosopher merely has a a mind inclined to observation and analysis, but without any education in philosophical disciplines he'll waste his time on irrelevant issues or think poorly with regard to pressing issues. He does philosophy in the capacity that a child performs scientific experiment. The drive is there, but the results are worthless due to poor experimental design or re-treading well tread paths.

>>6241590
logic and critical thought are inherent in philosophy, and rhetoric develops naturally when one presents their ideas and thoughts.

Knowing about philosophy is counter-intuitive to the nature pf philosophy, as one can not "know" what is philosophical. you can learn about philosophers of the past, and how it developed over time, and even the styles of arguments, and types of logic, but even if someone were to learn these things, they cant become a philosopher without first having the critical thinking skills, and ability to use logic fluidly.

what do you mean about "thinking poorly, with regard to pressing issues"? and what prevents a child from being able to be a philosopher, or even scientifically inclined? is it perhaps peoples perception of children, as being incapable? All people are incapable of they allow it, but incapability does not denote a lack of possibility. we should encourage children to be both scientific and philosophical. And that being said, what is the standard for philosophical discourse? You make it seem as if there is a pinnacle to philosophy; There is no goal, there cant be one. It is to constantly improve on what is known and understood, and what one does with that understanding.

a childs sense of wisdom, is no greater or less than an adults, as long as they dont simply accept what IS, and always strive to see more! What makes an adults wisdom greater is our perception of self worth and value in the eyes of others. though thats not to say that there are philosophies that may not promote a sense of self worth.

There are many branches of philosophy, but they all have the same basic principal

perceive>understanding>knowing>perpetuate

it is present in all things.

>>6239763
No! Being good at scientific endeavors by no means qualify you to be ruler of the fucking country! A plumber could be a better politician and make more sensible decisions but he would be barred from entry in a technocracy.

>>6239763
No, they should be run by Mathematicians.

>>6241674
> A plumber could be a better politician and make more sensible decisions.

Do you even believe that bullshit yourself?

>>6241362
>I wanna be part of the group and make an inside joke on philosophy not being one of the "true" autistic sciences

You do realize that the whole western science is based on a few guys who we today call philosophers? Guys who among other things invented the tools used in medicine almost exactly the same they were back in the day. Guys who theorized that the Earth was round some 1500 years before the idea became mainstream?

You do realize that philosophy literally means "love of science"?

Just because you can't crunch the whole concept into specific role of studying specific things, doesn't mean its not "science". The scientific method doesn't exist without philosophy.

Its specifically the basis of all science today.

>>6239779
LOL thatcher. 0/10. too obvious.

>>6239763
no are you crazy

>>6242279
philo-sophie is a "love of wisdom". but yes science cant function without philosophy, but there is philosophy in everything; understanding why and how a thing is what it is. philosophy is its own branch now. a philosophy of literally every subject you can think of,.

>>6242160
Scientists are still human, and it is not outside the realm of possibilities for them to become corrupt politicians

>>6241362
>equating philosophers to the plebs that hand you your lattes

>>6239763
Just because someone is a scientist of some discipline or other doesn't mean they'd make a decent leader of a country.

>>6242738
lol what? the problem with modern philosophers, is that they try too hard to BE a philosopher. what we might call a "try hard". All they do is parrot what anyone has said that was remotely philosophical, and either pass it off as their own, or raise up their "ideas" so high that it prevents others that can come up with original ideas from making it meaningful in any way.

>>6242534
In a technocratic meritocracy there would be no such thing. Power would come to people who show adeptness in scientific fields, and the nature of science itself reduces the possibility of people frauding their way into power.

>>6242960
not only did you completely miss the point of what he was saying, you logic bombed all over the place, and even managed to upset me slightly. but the sad thing is, you're not even trollin, you'er just retarded.

do you even Know what you said, or are even talking about?

>>6239763

No, countries should be run by people of all professions as to properly represent everyone. But yeah, since that will never happen all we can hope is that scientists will eventually have a more prominent role in politics.

>>6242741
knowledge is power. Also politicians not making ignorant decisions when it comes to science are rather useful.

>>6240998
In some countries it is required.