/sci/ - Science & Math

What does that mean?

That's what anesthetics are for

Related question:

When somoeone says something is painful to him, how can we know he's really FEELING pain? I mean for example we could think of a robot who is programmed to say something like "ouch" whenever he's in a situation where a normal human would feel pain. Does that mean the robot IS truly feeling pain? If it doesn't, then how can we know other humans feel pain?

leprecy

don't be a little bitch.

>>6233165
well, you see, we have these neat little machines called fMRIs.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1204471

>>6233165
Nerves

>>6233170
But nerves don't tell us anything about the subjective feelings.

>>6233172
What if said robot is programmed to produce the same fMRI patterns as someone who claims to feel pain?

>>6233173
then that robot has a human brain and is in fact a cyborg, not a robot.

>>6233173
Okay, so you're going with the "what if my blue isn't your blue" high school stoner argument

Cool

>>6233175
It's an important question of science.

>>6233177
Maybe. But does he "feel" pain the same way I do?

>>6233153
You need to realize that pain is nothing more than electrical signals transmitted to your brain that you're conditioned to feel hurt. Once you can truly control how to interpret them, you won't mind the pain, because it won't mentally harm or disturb you.

speaking from experience.

>>6233180
yes. This question is getting ridiculous.

>>6233181
Can you prove it?

>>6233183
look up a phenomenon called Phantom Limb Syndrome. People with amputated limbs sometimes feel sensations where there can't possibly be any, showing that pain is nothing but signals in the brain. If you can mimic those signals precisely, then you mimic the perceived sensations. Now shut up and go finish your homework. You have school tomorrow.

>>6233185
They claim to feel pain, but how can you know they ARE actually feeling something? How can you conclude subjective experience only on the basis of verbal expressions? Did you understand my robot analogy?

>>6233187
Your robot analogy was retarded. You can show that someone is feeling pain with an fMRI. You can verbally confirm they are in pain by asking them, and their honest response will confirm what you are seeing on the fMRI.
>but we can't know nuthin!
yes we can. Go do your homework and leave science to the people who do science.

>>6233153

yes you just have to internalize the idea that this pain is helping you somehow.

If you start lifting weights you'll understand what I mean, there is pain when you do a heavy squat, there is pain when you push yourself beyond a limit and there is the idea that this pain is necessary and good for you. So you condition yourself to like it.

>>6233193
>You can show that someone is feeling pain with an fMRI

No, you can't. All you can see i brain activity. You don't see subjective experience anywhere in there.

>>6233193
>their honest response will confirm
So a robot who is programmed to say "I feel pain" is truly feeling pain?

>>6233195
>fucking face palm
you're a fucking idiot. Of course you can't see something subjective, if you could it would be objective. You asked "how can we know [someone is] really FEELING pain." That requires an objective measurement, not a subjective one. I'm done trying to educate you.

>>6233202
The subjective experience of pain is subjective. Do you even read?

>>6233204
and the brain activity that creates that subjective experience can be measured objectively, but you seem to prefer silly arguments about robots and the like.

yeah but what does it feel like to have a vagina

>>6233210
How can you make the jump from observing the brain activity to concluding that the person has that subjective experience? How is this deduction justified? What evidence backs it up? Don't say verbal report. The robot analogy already showed why this doesn't work.

>>6233215
with what we know about phantom limb syndrome, as I already said!!!

>>6233220
But we don't know anything about the subjective experience. We only see brain activity and hear the person's verbal comment. I don't see how your conclusion logically follows. Please explain your reasoning.

Joe Rogan pls go

>>6233223
100 people say they have pain.
They all show the same or similar pained behavior.
They all have very similar fMRI scans.
Therefore, those fMRI scans shows the brain activity going on at the same time someone who claims to be in pain is feeling that alleged pain.

Then, phantom limb syndrom.
100 amputees say they feel pain in their amputated limb.
They exhibit the same fMRI patters as the people who claimed to be in pain before.
Therefore, pain is a product of the brain.

Pain is a product of the brain.
Someone says they aren't in pain, but fMRI scans show very similar results to those people who say the are in pain.
That someone is lying, he is in pain.
If we can measure pain objectively, there's no need for a subjective measure at all. Subjectivity has no place in science.

>>6233230
Why do you keep talking about verbal expressions? The robot analogy clearly showed how verbal expressions do not need to relate to subjective experience.

>>6233230
>If we can measure pain objectively
You can measure the physiology of pain but not the subjective experience of pain.

>Subjectivity has no place in science.
Subjective experience happens and requires scientific explanation.

>>6233237
no it didn't, and I already addressed that. As I said above, if the robot was able to precisely mimic the human brain, then it HAS a human brain. If it has a human brain, then that brain can be expected to perform the same tasks as an ordinary human brain. So it would feel pain all the same.

>>6233241
>You can measure the physiology of pain but not the subjective experience of pain.
uh..duh. You can measure your subjective experience by writing about it, and I can measure mine in the same way. But for me to measure your subjective experience requires objective work such as, my reading your written report, or scanning you with an fMRI and comparing your brain activity to that of 99 other people, or me simply asking you "how do you feel?" as any good doctor would.

>>6233246
>If it has a human brain, then that brain can be expected to perform the same tasks as an ordinary human brain. So it would feel pain all the same.
How do you know? You can't even know if other humans are feeling pain the same way you do.

>>6233246
>You can measure your subjective experience by writing about it

Do you even know what measurement mean?

>>6233246
Writing doesn't measure subjective experience. You cannot infer subjective experience from reading what someone else wrote.

>>6233185
>>6233193
>>6233202
>>6233220
>>6233230
>>6233246
Can you please stop pretending to be retarded? The so called "hard problem of consciousness" is still unsolved and we don't even know whether it will ever be amenable to science. Every neuroscientist will confirm this.

>>6233262
That's not what he was asking about though. Pain is a measurable thing that we can know exists, can compare to others' in a group study, and form conclusions about.

I got third degree burns over my body and it hurt so bad i tried to commit suicide. I tried with my might to convince myself it didnt hurt. But it didnt work. There pretty much was no way i could will away my pain i choose to die instead and jumped into the flames. But a firefighter pulled me out. I still wish he hadnt.

>>6233269
You're not funny or creative. By pretending to be illiterate you're slightly annoying at best. There are better and more productive ways of using your time.

>>6233269
He said "subjective experience".

>>6233273
You're right, this argument has been circular and annoying for me too. Saged and done.

>>6233270
pictures or it didn't happen

>>6233270
Can you explain what happened?

I'm curious as to what could cause the will of another person to break.

>>6233246
I feel bad for you man, having to put up with morons who think pain is some magical thing that doesn't physically exist and we all have different interpretations of it.

Why the fuck do you even continue to argue? He's just scooping you down to his own level of stupidity. Stop falling for his retarded shit.

>>6233447
0/10

>>6233153
pain is a simply overfiring of neurons, isn't it?

I got into an argument online with somehow who claimed I was dying right now, since I'm slowly creeping towards death.

No that's not what dying means you stupid shit.

that is analogous to you OP. You're jumping through hoops to prove something that doesn't matter at all. And even worse, you're wrong about it.


tl;dr OP was faggot

I've always had a really dull affect to pain. I don't feel it much, but when I do, I just usually block it off by getting really angry and it kind of balances out