/sci/ - Science & Math

>>6156992
there's nothing wrong with it, most of the world's best universities are american

Consider a programme or development scheme which gives people who don't have the funding or the parents support to go to a university.

>>6156996
Public education, i.e. grades 1-12.

>>6156999
no one gives a fuck about those kiddo, they're shit all over the world

Gordon Ramsay method, make everything God tier difficult, rip apart the weakest until they reach perfection, do not accept anything less that a perfect result. This is how math and physics are studied, every degree (even degrees like women's studies and philosophy) should be graded the same way.

>>6157003
but why, though? are you saying that we shouldn't fix a shit system because they're shit?

>>6156992
Give control over education back to the states- better yet, back to the individual school districts.
Give teachers a chance to actually teach students instead of just struggling to meet national standards.
Teach to mastery. Don't introduce a topic, spend 5 minutes discussing it, then move on to the next topic just to finish a pre-approved lesson plan. Teach a topic to an individual student until that individual grasps it.
Don't bore the smarter students and don't hold them back to keep the class together. If a small group or even one student is ahead of the rest, teach them more advanced material while the others learn the easier stuff.
Repetition, repetition, repetition.
Integrate courses. Teach History alongside art and Literature. Show how biology, chemistry, and physics interrelate and influence one another. Show how mathematics has real world applications.
Repetition, repetition, repetition.

>>6157011
i'm saying that your fixation on american system doesn't make sense

and i don't think there's anything to fix either

Nothing wrong with the system. The problem is the students and parents.

>>6157005
but then the hoards of useless soccer moms will come with torch and pitchfork, screaming about how "unfair" this education system is.

>>6156992
Bring back the the atriums and togas

>>6157005
>a perfect result. This is how math and physics are studied, every degree (even degrees like women's studies and philosophy) should be graded the same way.
The problem is, for those types of degrees, "a perfect result" doesn't exist. A paper that one professor thinks is brilliant could be thought absolute shit by another professor. Everyone thought Nietzsche was a crackpot while he was alive. Forcing a standard of perfection will simply encourage more of the "agree with your professor's opinions if you want a good grade" crap that is already too rampant in non-science (and some science) fields.

I've actually found I'm one of the few University educated right wingers (I studied science, not economics or business btw). Campus life is generally slightly to the left of the former Soviet Union, so I tended to stick out like a short thumb. To this end, my own ideas on educational reform generally include vouchers and making schools more amenable to market forces; I think the reason why vouchers haven't worked yet is they are so controversial that no one really is prepared to give them a fair shake, except in sweden, where they have been moderately successful.
At the end of the day, like most on the political right, I think that the educational reform is an exercise in tail chasing. Smart kids are going to do well, stupid kids are going to do poorly, no matter what system we have. I do not believe, as many on the left do, that we can magically pull all those disadvantaged kids out of the ghetto by changing our system. However, if such a magical system does exist, vouchers and free market forces are the best mechanism to find it.

>>6158020
>Hilary Levey Friedman

What an evil cunt.

We need to stop telling kids that they are inherently special and deserve to do great things.
We need to start failing them and telling them they have to earn the right to be called special.

>>6158078
There's a problem implicit in your post, that you think educational reform means getting stupid gets to do well academically.

What the system needs to do is stop coddling their children, telling this kid who can barely add that he can be anything he wants if he just dreams big and reaches for the stars.

He drags the intelligent children down just by his presence.
You know what, son? You're dumb. You're never gonna be a physicist. There's no shame in that; nobody's cut out for everything.

One size does not fit all. Teach at a pace that the smart kids (the ones going into academic fields) find challenging and don't even bother teaching the stupid kids how to solve quadratic equations.

It isn't useful; little Jimmy is gonna be a mechanic; abstract math is useless to him.
Send him to an apprenticeship and let him start working by 13 or 14.

Now that you've weeded them out you can teach at 4x5 times the regular pace because it's do or die, and the kids who are left are the doers.

And here's the thing; if dumb little Jimmy is dead-set that he's gonna be an astronomer and fuck the haters, he'll study 10 hours a day to keep up. If he really wants it, you can't stop him.

>>6158104
>getting stupid gets
lel

*kids

>>6158104
I was the person you are replying to, and think this is a great post and a great point. But vouchers and market forces would also be the best way of challenging the smartest kids as well. I believe in efficient markets, whatever result you want your system to achieve. Not insisting that dumb little johnny "stays in school" is a great point though; perhaps he could apply to have his educational voucher paid to his employer to subsidise his apprenticeship until he is 18? That would extend the voucher system to accomodate early school leavers.

Pay raises for teachers. Federalization or at least redistributions of funds, so no more swimming pools and polo teams in the public schools in rich neighborhoods, while schools in poor neighborhoods have to cut the school year short because they can't afford to keep the schools open. Fire racist teachers, administrators.

>>6158104
>You know what, son? You're dumb. You're never gonna be a physicist. There's no shame in that; nobody's cut out for everything.

You're right that we could be better dividing children according to their potential and interests.

However two problems with this:

1.) hat does not address the matter that work culture has changed such that it is no longer possible to support oneself or one's family with what in the past was considered sufficient for an honest days work. Even if we expect less from the kid right now, will he be able to support himself better because of it?

2.) What of 'late-bloomers'? Do we want to risk giving too much control to parents / teachers to judge a child's future, when they themselves aren't suited to the task? What about children who are uniquely gifted? We need a better way to evaluate how to uncover a child's full potential than to leave it up to some mindless middle-school teacher or even their parents.

>>6158124
Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with your voucher idea at all.

I think the right to education is important, and the idea of an education voucher is interesting, but only if it's necessary.

That's an interesting idea with changing vouchers into an apprenticeship subsidy, although I'd think the employer would be paid enough by the free labour he's getting from the kid he's training.

>>6158104

I agree partly but as society advances we need a citizenry that is more aware of modernity. I'm not saying the current model is perfect but citizens need more knowledge than in the past to keep our nation competitive.

Even with practices that weed out the inept and support of education, there are still flaws in the system. We really need to cut back on pattern matching (mostly in math and close fields). Instead of teaching that you use a certain algorithm to solve a certain type of problem, explain why that algorithm is correct in a specific situation and/or force the students to come up with the algorithm for themselves. We need students to understand why mathematical tools work rather than what they are.

Grade inflation's also a big one. We definitely need to nip that in the bud.

>>6158154
On top of that, we need to let them figure out AN algorithm rather than THE algorithm and not teach 'you must solve this problem this specific way'. Marking down an answer because it was solved 'the wrong way' is counterproductive.

>>6158135
For the record, the idea of educational vouchers is not mine, it's been around for a while, although I independently hit on the idea while I was in high school some 15 years ago. The left absolutely hates the concept; but frankly I think thats an accident of history. Imagine if the idea of a government voucher had appeared before widespread public education? The left would have thought it was a fantastic idea.
While I'm in this thread, is there a guy on the left who could possibly explain why vouchers are viewed so negatively by that side of the political spectrum?

>>6156992

Is this /sci/ or /pol/?

Much of what you guys are saying here makes so much sense. Its not just the inherent sense but also the pragmatic approach and logical reasoning behind many of the posts I am reading here.

It makes me feel like banging my fist down and saying "YES!" BY FUCK, THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE"

Ex-teacher here. Got out of teaching because of the cluster fuck of retarded liberal ideology and, frankly, dumb assed bitches with their heads in the clouds, who seem to run education in my country.

What you gentlemen are saying echoes my sentiments, but you know what? It wont happen. Because what you are suggesting is politically incorrect.

I truly believe society has to come close to collapse, or indeed actual collapse, before any of the ideas expressed here would be allowed to be implemented.

>>6156992

1) foreign language in 1st grade, prolly Madarin
2) require logic classes in middle school

Blacks in the major cities really mess things up,when we judge the health of our education system based on grades.

You can see improvements over night,if you act like the schools in the major cities don't exist

>>6158248

you make an interesting point...

inner city schools are a haven for crime and disorderly conduct,, disrupting classes making any 'fix' moot...

certainly, the system can be improved in the more weathy areas...but thought needs to be made to the poor communities too..

hmm

>>6158235
>2) require logic classes in middle school

sO MUCH THIS.

>>6158263
niggers will be niggers, but there will be some that rise above their peers.
Teachers need to be trained to look for the good apples.

You can ship those few good apples to schools that are designed to teach,and not to fulfill the role of nigger day care in the cities.

There are metal detectors in the black schools...
Think about that.

My school would let students store their hunting gun in the principle's office,if the office was given a notice ahead of time, when it's hunting season.

>>6158277
>metal detectors at a school
god damn its good to be from a white state

shit I never even saw a metal detector IRL til I went to an airport

I wouldn't change a thing

From a logistical standpoint it works and at the end of the day the cream always rises from the top. The driven and motivated individuals succeed and the slackers get hung up to dry

>>6158277
That's extremely impractical as those 'few good apples' would be from poor families still. Families that wouldn't be able to afford a better education.

>>6158313
Why not use federal grants?

After all if you have a 4.0,and you're black, you would get get a full ride to most universities.

>>6158188
Public education is one of those great equalizing forces that we love so much in america. (lets put aside the fact that school quality varies greatly depending on where in the US you live). If you allow people to use vouchers, you're basically saying that you can move your kid to a better school if you have the time or money to chauffeur him possibly 50 miles every day. This is a major problem when you consider low income families don't have the time or resources to do this.

There is also the big issue of separation of church and state. If you allow for vouchers, the state is partially funding a students education. An education that, for the most part, will be a religious one if they go to a private school. I can't remember the figures, but a very large majority of private schools are focused around a religion.

There is also the issue of charter schools (for profit companies that are in the business of primary and secondary education). You could say that charter schools are the free market at work, but very often the test scores of these schools are either at or below comparable public school levels But, I believe you are separating these two things.

>>6158215
Most of the opinions here are "there is nothing wrong" or "the students are lazy, we can't fix that"

>>6158269
Tumblr faggot detected.

You're also probably a girl

gET OUT

>>6156992
1. More local control over education.
2. More responsibility for the children to pick their own courses.
3. Teach physical trades as well as academic subjects.
4. Students should be learning applicable, real world skills by the time they are in high school.
5. College should be funded mostly by grants and scholarships, not by loans like it is now.

Some other things:
- It's a good thing to expose people to a certain amount of math but after a certain point it becomes pointless. It's a waste of time to force people to do a bunch of math that they aren't going to use.

- Political education is abysmal. People need to learn how to properly complain to their senators and representatives; it's one of the most important life skills ever.

- People need to be educated in law and to know how to argue their points in court. I want to live in a world where lawyers don't have a huge leg up on everyone because of their trade.

>>6158277
Yeah there is that 1 nigga in 10,000.

>>6158376
You can't give up on them entirely, but you gotta be reasonable with your exspectations.

That black is going to be angry like an uncle ruckus after getting a good job,and seeing how his old friends are worthless niggers.

>>6158338
Charter schools are pretty much what I had in mind; I'm actually not american, I'm Australian, and was unaware of the fact that private schools tend to be more religiously oriented over there. I would expect that the average mark in a charter school to be comparable to a public school, but due to market forces, I believe the charter school would be able to deliver the same education for less money, mainly because a professionally run business isn't going to indulge every ridiculous educational fad that comes along like the public schools do (note that my Australian experience may be different to your american perspective).
Note also that the Swedish voucher system has a public transport subsidy in the event of a student being located far away from his chosen school, so some of your difficulties can be overcome with correct policy decisions.
Of course, I could be talking out o my arse here, with my general naivette regarding education in america.

>>6158436
Sweden has the infrastructure to handle things like that. Much of the US is very VERY rural and we haven't invested heavily in public transportation (do you really need to invest in a bus system where houses are 5 miles apart?)

Very often the for-profit schools are interested in, you guessed it, making money rather than teaching children. Of course you would think that they would try and teach as best they could so as to attract a lot of students, but they really focus on cutting down costs (students eat in their classrooms, students will help clean the rooms, etc.)

>>6158444
Most of the US is rural, but most of the US's population live in urban areas.

And the shittiest schools are in the inner-city.

>>6158447
there are just as many shitty schools in rural towns. The best schools are in the rich suburbs.

>>6158448
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxkMVHPJxt8

>>6158341

Then try reading the posts that do have content, you fucktard, and ignore the fucktard posts like your own. You fucktarding fucktard.

Fucktards.There is always at least one in every thread.

>>6158235
yes madarin a great language CHINA RISING RIGHT

>>6158444
> Much of the US is very VERY rural and we haven't invested heavily in public transportation (do you really need to invest in a bus system where houses are 5 miles apart?)
I lived in rural US; my house was 1 mile from the closest farm. We had a bus system. It's not that big a deal.

>>6156992
A variety of changes
1) Smaller class sizes- teachers can offer more in class assistance to help students
2) Tutoring period- In addition to 1 there would be a period where the student picks what they will be tutored in. Not really sure on how the logistics of this would go, seeing as you would need a huge amount of tutors, this problem also applies to 1.
3) Change the standard teaching method- as it stands most teachers have a very set lecturing approach which is not stimulating, not rewarding, and often hard to follow. Have more lab style classes that are hands on, people usually learn better by doing the thing in question.
4) Learn by teaching- during tutoring periods, or in class, just some point during the day have students try to explain concepts to the teacher/tutor or to other students.
5) Have a unified curriculum for a variety of classes in the sense that they all interrelate. IE: Biology class learns about parts of a cell, while during chemistry they learn about the actual molecular makeup of those components.
6) Classes have a long term project that requires use of concepts learned in the class and applied to project. This is essentially a more specialized and more complex lab. An English class may have to write a short novel over the course of the year and integrate certain writing techniques, or a music class may have to compose a piece.

More drastic changes could be, in eliminating grades (K-12) and having it so each student goes at their own pace. Students can tackle subjects as they choose, and learn at their own pace. An positive incentive system should be in place besides grading, because as it stands grading is more negative reinforcement and scares students into working harder instead of convincing students that they want to learn the material.

Captcha: visiur teaching

Better textbooks and learning materials. Ban creationism back to religious studies where it belongs.

Hired help for the teachers so they can get on with teaching whilst the help sorts out any misbehavior.

>>6158020
As someone employed in early childhood education I can attest to this. Literally everything we try to teach or good habits we try to condition can be totally erased by the wrong parents. It's extremely frustrating

Education starts at the home. Most students who fail at school or have trouble learning will almost always have shitty parents who don't care.

Senior in high school here, apparently next year here in Illinois they are putting in the Common Core teaching standards. I think it might help in a few years as half of my peers in this small school don't understand why math and science are important and how they are even related. We just memorize formulas and don't even understand what they mean.

>>6158384
Blacks choose to become "niggers" instead of educated "black people". They only have themselves to blame.

>1st Grade
Basic addition/subtraction
>2nd Grade
Basic times tables/fractions
>3rd Grade
Division, Powers, Roots
>4th grade
Algebra
>5th Grade
Geometry, Logic, Sets, Combinatorics, Proofs
>6th Grade
Higher order Algebra. Trig, Exponential, Logs, Series, Sums, Limits
>7th Grade
Calculus, Matrix Algebra
Chemistry
>8th Grade
Vector Calculus, ODEs
Mechanics, Thermodynamics
C++ Programming
>9th Grade
Linear Algebra, Probability, Statistics
Electromagnetism, Circuits
Digital Logic, Comp Arch
>10th Grade
Real Analysis, Abstract Algebra
Stat Mechanic, Optics, Advance Mechanics and Special Relativity
Data Structures and Algorithms
American Government and Political Science
>11th Grade
PDEs, Complex Analysis, Fourier Analysis
Quantum Mechanics
Numerical Analysis, OS, Parallel Programing
Macro & Micro Economics
>12th Grade
Electives (Organic Chem, Biology, GR, Astrophysics, Robotics, Comp Vision, etc...)

If after 12 years of free education someone only manages to complete the 7th Grade, it will be stated clearly on their degree (possibly farther broken down by subject area). Everyone gets to pick what public or private school they want to go to and thus how fast their program will progress. Students who are interested would be able to take free after school, weekend, or summer Foreign Language courses at whatever institution offers the particular language they want to learn.

If you took an American from the year 1800 and brought him forward 213 years to the present the only thing he would recognize about this country is the education system.

abolish homework

>>6159902
If every first-world school system were like this, the world would be a much better place.

>>6159902
This, with a dynamic dropout scheme that routes people towards vocational studies (ie. bricklaying), or disciplines of lesser complexities eg. low level engineering disciplines with on the floor industrial roles.

>>6159902
Do you think you're stressing math/science too much here? I don't, but some people are more inclined to the humanities, they're kind of left behind in this.
I also think Fourier Analysis in the 11th grade is reaching pretty far.

>>6159941
yes exactly, things like art, home ec, and athletics are totally neglected

>>6159902
What about English or History classes?

>>6159957
Ask /lit/ how they would construct the perfect English or History classes.

I'm not entirely sure how to fix education, but at the very least i would stop teaching the retarded unit system the US currently uses and force those fuckers to know metric

>>6158020
I want to scream at you but I am sure you are just a troll

>>6160658
>retarded unit system the US currently uses and force those fuckers to know metric

Metric isn't at all any more logical than Imperial units. (SPOILER: base 10/10^3 prefixes aren't special to Metric)

>>6158215
Why did you quit? Did you just give up because it wasn't logical enough for you? Was it to hard?

pay teachers more, and make it harder to become a teacher. Alot of "Teachers" ive had were nothing more then average people with degrees. just because you have a degree in something doesn't mean your a teacher in that subject

>K-8
Physical education, geometry, game theory, basic logic. Encourage group story telling and play. Focus on assimilating the individual into the class so that they feel as though their school work is not an obligation towards themselves or their future, but to their peers and society. Teach them to read, write, and express themselves. Every self expression must be presented towards the rest of the class rather thn simply the teacher, and so they will learn to define themselves through their thoughts and their actions and so on rather than becoming issolated by factory education.

>9,10
Begin science and give them the general foundations. Teach them how to do proofs and abstract logic, calculus sould be introduced at this point. Extend physical education to more advanced games and military training. Apply what they've learned in game theory to fake military battles. Teach rhetoric and encourage public speaking and debate. Move from basic storytelling to analytic writing and philosophy. All is again put on public spectical. The individual must be defined by his peers and society. Change rooms and showers do not have doors. Partener younger students with older students and the weak with the strong in all classes so as to build a culture where one can't fall behind. Encourage the class to bully its weaker/dumber students into excelelnce.

>11-13
Continue the curriculm above but allow for more variety of subjects to be studied. Encourage students to be mentored under professionals in the profession of their choice. Encourage sexual relations between teachers and students. Try to make the educational more personal and more personalized. Encourage and provide opprotunites for all students to spend a year somewhere else in the nation (In my fascist canadian utopia everything would be much more multicultural) learning a different culture and language and also promoting a shared national conciousness.

University stays the same

>>6158020
This. I didn't take school seriously and now I'm as dumb as a door knob.

While at the same time I watched other kids take school seriously and they are smart and going to college and shit.

I have no one to blame but myself. And I'm fine with that.

>>6161007
>Friend is 8th grade history teacher
>Mfw he tells me that there are some kids in his classes that can't even read
>Mfw they still get bumped up into the next grade

>>6161024
If you dont let a kid go to the next grade, that's telling him/his parents that he is dumb, or lazy, or some other insult. and thats defecation of character and you can go to prison for that.

>>6161024
We have kids graduating without knowing english.

>>6161034
And I'm not talking about recent immigrants. These kids were born American or moved here well before highschool.

I'm not even in a border state.

>>6161038
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD>>6161034
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD>>6161027
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

>mother fucking america

>>6161027
>Kid fails grade
>Kid spirals into idiotic depression
>Parent sues school
>Wins because of "MUH CHILLEN DESERVES TO BE TREATED LIKE AN EQUAL"
>School board forced to drop standardized test passing grade another 50 points
>Soon after tons of idiots start passing
>National IQ average drops another 15 points
>Idiot kids now have extremely high self esteem and confidence because "I passed so I must be super smart"
>They all go on to college to become scientists and other brainy jobs
>Realize it is all too hard
>Start failing classes
>Self esteem and confidence crushed
>Drop out of school
>Thousands of dollars in debt
>Eventually they all reproduce
>Rinse and repeat

>>6161024
I was able to get through high school with only reading one of the "required" books.
It's pretty easy to fake it if you pay even a small amount of attention in class

>>6161034
I live in Miami. I know this all too well. And it's a fucking shame.

I refuse to learn another language in my own country just so they can feel comfortable.

>>6161042
>>National IQ average drops another 15 points

Doesn't work that way. IQs are based on the average so if the average of all people drop, their IQ is unaffected.

>>6161042
>>Realize it is all too hard
>professor pass rate falls
>professors forced to heavily curve
>college is now as worthless as high school
>repeat with graduate school
>science dies

>>6160978
I mean, it's obvious this guy isn't more than an average guy. He can't even differentiate between "than" and "then" and "you're" and "your"! In addition, he wasn't educated to the fact that alot is not a word. But he could still be a teacher.

>>6161050
It's just an exaggeration. Calm down.

>>6161007
K-8 sounds a little like Japan's education system in terms of how work is toward the society. Unfortunately, this is how hikikomoris are produced. This will cause a lot of stress on students and cause them to not want to contribute at all. Then the population will fail.

9,10: you never even introduced the basics of Algebra. How are you going to expect them to do calculus? Prerequisites, man. Military training? Not all people are athletic. Are you trying to raise an army of Spartans? Again, so much pressure on performing for the betterment of society will create undue stress for many and cause withdrawal from society.
>Encourage the class to bully its weaker/dumber students into excelelnce
I hope you're not serious.

>Encourage students to be mentored under professionals in the profession of their choice.
Because there are just so many of these professionals just laying around, right?
>Encourage sexual relations between teachers and students.
And increase the chances of favoritism? Do you know what love does to people?

Seriously, this would never work. It's idealistic and not realistic at all.

1) begin teaching higher math at a younger age. introduce subjects together rather than teaching a tid-bit and waiting until they get to college to understand why they did that thing all those years.

2) begin teaching programming/robotics at a younger age through games and simple activities. use super simple high-level languages to let kids program robots and make things. Get them used to computer logic and comfortable with obeying syntax. Increase difficulty as years go by.

3) Merge lecture and lab more.

4) More emphasis on real life skills and STEM fields than on the humanities

5) Open source text books and curriculum. Let teachers more actively contribute in what they teach and how they teach it. But also have regulations in place in case of loony professor

6) Perform more studies about how students learn and classroom behavior. A constant stream of data on how everything is working will make it easier to diagnose problems and enact changes.

7) More specialized higher education. High-schools should be more specialized and oriented toward preparing kids for careers, not just college. Imagine a high-school dedicated to various engineering or science disciplines while the medical students have their own school and the humanities have their own school. Steep kids in their desired fields. Knock down the walls of districts. Allow for more free movement and congregation among like-minded students.

8)More emphasis on performing learned skills rather than answering standardized tests. More emphasis on explanation of answers. More lab practicals.

9)Poor performing students or those not showing progress or that have bad attitudes will get to pick a trade school where they will learn how to make food, sweep floors, plumb, fix cars, build houses, or learn "job skills" in general. Separate them from the others.

10) Get employers involved early. Let them come in and teach a section or talk to students about what they expect.

>>6161081
>begin teaching higher math at a younger age.

I've seen this posted quite some times ITT now, I came here to tell you, that you know jack shit about child development. For god sake, read a book instead of talking out your ass. There's a reason why we aren't just getting Quantum physics thrown in the face when we leave the vagina.

Regards
A concerned /lit/izen

>>6159898
What does common core have to do with that?

>>6160910
No troll. Scream at the truth if you want. It won't help.

So what? Average is plenty for almost all of primary ed

Get rid of public schools and pandering to the lowest common denominator.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbOqxQUB10A

Based Sowell lays it on the line.

>>6161054
Too true, my college use to shear people alive if they could even make it in. Whoever was left standing was easily in the top 3% of their field. Over the last 15 years our acceptance rate went from 60% to 98% and graduation rate went from 40% to 80%. More fools are applying because we accept just about anyone now and offer good scholarships for countless things. Plus now you got to do really bad to fail thanks to outside pressure to "improve" the education as people made judgments based on the high failure rate. The "improvements" are from us lowering standards not teaching better. To further add to the problems the place has grown too fast leading to because larger colleges are favored as they can better leverage financial power.

To put it in perspective a I was once part of club a few years before I came designed and built an engine from scratch, even forging the parts. Now they basically do a few bake sales to buy a engine kit and just assemble it, and they don't even talk about how to push the limits. I stopped by for old time sake after a reunion to see what the new guys where up to. They asked me to leave when I STRONGLY recommended they not settle for what was was literally buying a pre made engine, even putting down a $100 reward for them to just put some thought into it as I was mortified to see what the club had become. The old group would have at least grabbed one of the aerospace students and got them to help optimize the compressor setup rather then use the default settings. One big reason they kept citing beside everything being too hard was the new design competition has such strict rules that everyone basically uses the exact same engine, back in my day the winning a competition was nice but the club didn't exist solely to win, it was made for bored engineers who wanted to see what they could do.
It is like none of them want to try at all because it risks failure. What happened?

>>6159902
Good luck getting enough teaching talent to teach all of that everywhere.

>>6161126

Most people ARE saying to start teaching higher math at around 13-14 years old when they are old enough to grasp more abstract work and this is common in other countries. No one is implying that calculus should be done in kindergarten.

>>6161155
>I'm a very bright person, but I'm not good in an academic setting

What?

>>6161183
>One big reason they kept citing beside everything being too hard
>It is like none of them want to try at all because it risks failure. What happened?

Because they are not there to learn anything. All they want is a piece of paper that says they're employable. Learning stuff is for after you get a job if you even need to. This is why degrees that teach absolutely nothing at all but have high paying jobs (e.g. CS, Business) are extremely popular.

>>6161126
I must disagree somewhat and I don't think the last poster was advocating the force death march teaching style you imply.

It really depends on the person. I know I solved every problem in the math books because it was fun and I wanted to know more. But asking for more math got me in a lot of trouble, especially when I talked about the idea of numbers less then zero which I was told would just confuse the other students at the time. If just one of the many math teachers I asked had just told me where I could get the next level textbook I would have bought it myself. The fact the school library didn't carry any thing past pre-calculus because it was not part of the required curriculum was a crime as I had gotten up to that by my second year of high school on my own outside of class and was bored to death getting perfect scores. Keep in mind this was back before you could Google stuff as AOL Search was worthless. Then when I got into a very good university because of my high marks I was ill prepared compared to all the school kids that actually got to take calculus. More so as freshman calculus was really Calc 2 by other university standards, I nearly failed out not for lack of the capability, as I got an A the second time, but the lack of exposure cost me a semester among other things.

I have met far too many people who have had similar situations. Many people can learn more if given the opportunity, note that an opportunity is not the same as a mandate which forces everyone to take higher level material. I think you can agree on that as it don't force kids into things they can't handle but doesn't hold others back from what they can really do.

>>6161190
There is a growing flood of STEM majors in the making so that shouldn't be a problem.

>>6156992

Fix the culture first

>>6161237
>But asking for more math got me in a lot of trouble, especially when I talked about the idea of numbers less then zero which I was told would just confuse the other students at the time. If just one of the many math teachers I asked had just told me where I could get the next level textbook I would have bought it myself.

So much this. Teachers would refuse to listen when you say this is far too easy and who even scold you for finishing assignment "impossibly" too fast. The first time I ever could really learn anything was pretty much when I got into college.

Get rid of public schools.

Allow businesses, schools and colleges more room to discriminate.

>>6161240
People in those fields who would be capable of teaching those subjects with confidence generally won't be seen in the halls of a high school or primary school, especially given how low it pays. Also, many people going for education simply don't have the firepower to learn all of those with confidence. It is sort of scary who we will have teaching our kids in the future.

>>6161264
I'm not having kids.

it works fine except for black people

>>6161237
Yeah the culture is pretty shitty. It is acceptable to be shit at math and science but not so in history, analyzing literature etc. A big factor of this is the people universities churn out with a teaching certificate. These people lack enthusiasm and generally are pretty dull ( in my Math classes the general ones who do the worst are those going for Math education ). This leads to general incompetency with teachers and kids suffer for it. It might be better now that there is more readily available information out there, but why make kids need to work to get said information in the first place? Should be readily available.

>>6161268
Used "our" as a catch all for next generation.

>>6161126

>/lit/

Post invalidated. Please leave.

easy structural fix- scratch the DoE, decentralized education more
It is following the path of the finn

>>6161264
Teaching as a life long sole profession is terrible. Teachers should be working professional or University professors who take a few hours ever day to teach a course in a middle school or high school in what they're working on.

>>6161284
/lit/ is better than this board.

All you guys do is circle jerk about IQ and post homework problemsproblems

>>6159836
here's one thing for you. You say english classes would have to compress a novel for a final exam. So you're telling me that each english teacher should be reading 80+ novels during the final week of grading, and giving an accurate and insightful grade/feedback on those final books?

>>6161292
Oops phone posted problems twice

>>6161291
>Teaching as a life long sole profession is terrible
this, kind of.

A lot of teachers have no idea what it is like working in the real world and power trip over 6 year olds.

>>6161134
it has nothing to do with that.

>>6161236
I agree that "All they want is a piece of paper that says they're employable." which has undercut many things. Given how many companies ask for profitable production on day one, but none want to invest in teaching you the skills needed.
So if you don't get them in college and you don't get them from your employer. Where are people getting the skills they need? I think that is part of the unemployment problem we see now.
Second is any good degree will tech you something. I know a highly successful person who majored in animal husbandry and works as a defense contractor. He cites the skills he gained in his degree as very useful for what he does. One just needs to stop and think of how things can be applied differently. STEM it not the only productive fields in the world, the reason it has produced so much is mostly do to supply & demand imbalances. Remember it was those same imbalances that badly over valued liberal arts degrees not too long ago.
My Business degree has may not have gotten me a job, but it has taught me many useful things. Like how I cut my living expenses by applying my inventory management studies. A number of my friends have benefited from what I taught them, this includes scientist and engineers who many would think could just do such things already. They where shocked at the inefficiency I pointed out thanks to having studied it more then them.

Point is which degrees matter less then how it is applied and the supply & demand for it.

>>6161293
>the real world
Epic

>>6161291
Would need to be careful with primary school years. People teaching them need to be good with kids and understand how to communicate and get along with them effectively. Many working people who hate kids and Uni profs who hinge on the autist side of life would not be good at doing this.

>>6161326
I was thinking about teachers for 7th and above.

>>6161254
That sums it up well enough, but it down plays what could have been if I was given better opportunities.

>>6161274
Yes. But as you noted the problem is changing a bit. It use to be lack of access that stopped people who what to learn. Now it is so much access it devalues learning to start with, which totally is not true as there is always a value to learning but the mere perception is good enough it mess things up. After all, Why bother if to learn if I can just Google it?
The end effects are similar enough in that good learning is not done and we all lose out.

I do however have reservations about labeling all teachers as people lack enthusiasm. My aunt started teaching after retiring from her successful job as she saw it as a way to give back to the community. After three years of hell she quit much to our families relief, from the photos you can see what the stress has done to her. That stress was not from dealing with children as one would think, it was from bad parents who undermined her teaching and bureaucratic rules that prevented her from teaching to her full ability. I've seen many other with a similar passion for helping others stopped by all the rules that aim for teaching to the test. Then again I have seen the opposite as well. Highlighted by a lazy history teacher who admitted he did it for the money as he got basically got paid to show up on time, total pay is low but the effort to payout it actually high when looking at what he did.

>>6161346
I am not labeling all of them as such. I have just noticed that such teachers that fit that criteria are a big part of the problem. Parents also need to shape up ( dealing with entitled parents at a conference sounds like a goddamn nightmare ). But that goes back to the culture.

>>6161155
based fucking Sowell

>>6158384
>That black is going to be angry like an uncle ruckus after getting a good job
It starts earlier than that. The decent black guys i know in college that come from the ghetto hate niggers like a motherfucker, they're even more racist than i am. The shit they say makes even me blush.

There are, in my opinion, two primary concerns that would require to be addressed in order to fix the public education system.

1) The lack of desire to learn found in many students (such as in major cities where public education typically sucks and smart individuals are looked down upon)

and 2) The apathetic and irresponsible nature of many elementary school and middle school teachers.

The first problem is addressed through psychological conditioning and manipulation. This can be achieved through parenting, and also creating social messages, that when children are exposed at birth will be conditioned to think a certain way. These messages would glorify curiosity, intelligence, and problem solving and undermine the necessity for social conformity and the perception that "nerds are bad."

The second is much more delicate. The elimination of terrible teachers would create much uproar in their association. Issues of money, labor unions, and other politically economic issues are heavily incorporated. However, by priming children at a young age, the next generation of teachers could possibly be better than the previous.

>>6161926
>The apathetic and irresponsible nature of many elementary school and middle school teachers.

That's a massive understatement. I had a middle school teacher who would punish anyone who dared to read ahead in the math textbook. They're actively preventing learning and aren't even knowledgeable in the subject they teach.

>>6162406
>actively preventing learning and aren't knowledgeable in the subject they teach

Probably because when they were young they had a lack of interest in academics, ultimately becoming depriving idiots who desperately need a job.

The problem is the job they get is to teach. Yes. The future is left in their hands.

It's disgusting really.

>>6161242
That is probably the best answer, too broad and simple, but ultimately true.

No type of school above the four-grade rudimentary school. The job of these schools should be confined to the teaching of counting (no higher than up to 500), the writing of one's name, and the teaching that God's commandment means obedience to the Germans. Reading I do not consider essential.

>>6158020
yeah, I partly have to agree, although the parents and students make it so that we all have worse teachers.

assuming the pic is a troll.

>>6161007
>bully its weaker/dumber students into excelelnce
>public spectical
you're a faggot. all this spartan talk, and you spell like a fucking retard

>>6161007
please return to the real world, not your fantasy bullshit.

>>6156992
you take away the monopoly.

>>6156992

Public schools in school districts with high property values work just fine. If you want you kids to go to a good school, buy a more expensive house.

1) Let the schools expel anyone who disrupts the learning environment.
2) Let parents send their kids to any school that will take the kid.
3) Let students fail out of school.
4) Let schools fail and close.
5) Let every community be responsible for creating their own great schools.

>>6163643
>1) Let the schools expel anyone who disrupts the learning environment.

As an A student who been expelled twice because of zero tolerance bullshit, fuck you!

>2) Let parents send their kids to any school that will take the kid.
>3) Let students fail out of school.
>4) Let schools fail and close.

Agreed

>5) Let every community be responsible for creating their own great schools.

This will let dumb communities get away with watered down education and undermine any sort of value a highschool/middleschool degrees could have.

>>6163659
>This will let dumb communities get away with watered down education and undermine any sort of value a highschool/middleschool degrees could have.
The parents who care will send their kids elsewhere, and the community will eventually have to evolve. The fact that they have the choice to fail means some other community has the choice to succeed.

>>6163663
True, the kid still can get educated but he has no way of showing he more intelligent than the lowest common denominator kid that pass at a shitty school. The problem that we have now of everyone NEEDING to go to college stems from that fact that a high school degree tells us <span class="math">nothing[/spoiler] about that kids education.

>>6163677
But everyone doesn't need to go to college. We have a serious shortage of welders and other good professions that people aren't getting trained for because everyone thinks they need to go to college and get a job sitting behind a desk.

>>6156999
Nice trips

Require b average (external testing) with almost perfect attendance for any team sport, and separate all sports budgets/staff from the school budget/staff. Don't allow any sports uniforms or displays on school grounds. Not what they're fucking there for.

Cut administration to the bone. Administrators shouldn't be making 10x what a teacher does, there's truly no value a 500k administrator can bring that 2 50k administrators can't handle twice as fast. Use the freed up money for STEM, better teacher/student ratio, and to keep the mentally handicapped and juveline delinquents out of normal classes. They need something different, and the more productive students don't need the distraction.

Also, get rid of high school football.

>>6156992

>Gentleman
>man

1. NO STANDARDIZED TESTING
1.5 NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND GETS RAPED AND BURNED WITH THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED IT.
2. NONE OF THIS TREATING SCHOOLS LIKE A COMPETITIVE BUSINESS BULLSHIT, LEAVE THAT TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR. WE DONT NEED PEOPLE ALL MOVING TO ONE DISTRICT THAT HAS THE BEST TEACHERS.
3. School starts @ 9:30, none of this early morning bullshit.
4. Failing is <50% content knowledge, not <70%.
5. Speds and brilliant kids are NOT in the same class. Tiered classes where smarter kids are not held back by artards.
6. Art classes are not standardized are mandatory; curricula reflect and reward creativity and thinking outside the box instead of pathetic attempts at evaluating a student's creative side with a number.
7. Block scheduling, class lengths reflect complexity and necessity.
8. Recess through high school.

>>6163788
>4. Failing is <50% content knowledge, not <70%.

Fuck off retard

>>6161021

>mfw kids took highschool seriously
>never study or and fuck homework
>just pay attention
>contently ace all my tests and make up for it in class work/participation
>figured out how to beat the system
>only handed in big assignments like projects

>then college, oh god

There are actual flaws to the system are staggering, im not joking with the green text story. i was notorious for not doing homework and was actually sat down by the principal for it. They were pretty mad but couldnt really do anything cuase i was passing with a 78

Stop giving away education for sports
Standards are standards
http://www.sfgate.com/collegesports/article/Cal-s-shockingly-low-athletic-admission-standards-4984721.php?forceWeb=1#src=fb

If you adjust high school to work like a government funded college, where you will learn everything you learn in a normal high school but have options after middle school you could give them the option to go on the highschool and essentially live a normal life as it is now, but with a wide selection of high schools to choose from, but you could also choose an apprenticeship or an early enlistment program like an ROTC course or something

This would sort the people who are dragging down the system, from the people who actually want to be there, as well as give young adults the chance to make real tangible life decisions, i remeber a lot of kids wish they could be off learning a skill or craft rather than learning pre-college shit. They would have love the chance to get a jump on their career.

>>6163829
just cuz dem affleets got da bick dick n u got da baby dick and dey get all da poosy and u get nunda pussy dont me shit nerd nigga

get swole and get ridda dat gay ass haircut n stop thinkin bout hugh manatee's prockress n maybe u'd get some bitches on y'dick.

>>6163747

> Also get rid of football

Gorgeous normative statement, hideous declarative statement.

I work a data entry job where we count traffic videos. Any time there's a game: MILLIONS OF UNIFORMLY DRESSED CIVILIANS COMPLETELY DISREGARD TRAFFIC AND WALK TOWARDS THE STADIUM SIMULTANEOUSLY.

High school football is similarly loved because it gives those same retards the gratification of thinking their kid is going to be a millionaire for being a steroidal idiot.

Just because what you want is right for humankind doesn't mean the short-sighted mongol hordes will listen. Even many people who hates sports still have business investments in it.

People have been saying our cultural focus on sports is dumb for thousands of years. Even marcus aurelius said it:

>"From my governor [I learned] to be neither of the green nor of the blue party at the games in the Circus, nor a partizan either of the Parmularius or the Scutarius at the gladiators' fights; from him too I learned endurance of labour, and to want little, and to work with my own hands, and not to meddle with other people's affairs, and not to be ready to listen to slander. "

not really related other than at american uni.

How can you find the magnitude of a vector without using Pythagorean thm?

>>6161007

> Encourage sexual relations between teachers and students

definite pedo here

>>6163876
The teams should be privately owned. No education money should be thrown into it

>>6158277
>Needing metal detectors in your schools

Jesus Christ America...

Teach kids exactly like how a university would teach, the option to never attend lecture is there, etc....

Have the teachers aim for a 50-60% average like in universities, this creates a sense of urgency and competition and have grades curved, so you will always need to keep up with the class (like in universities).

Quizzes, midterms would be worth 30-40% of the mark, 10-20% for assignments and etc, finals worth 50% (like in universities). This may be kinda harsh, but it's pretty much how all of STEM operates in university, so there will be hardly any shock when you get to university. It also would force unmotivated students out of highschool, so graduating highschool would mean something.

>>6159902
Not everyone wants/needs to go into a STEM field.

>>6161027
>defecation of character

>>6163976
>have grades curved
Fuck no. Let the dumb asses fail

>>6164003
Finally!

>>6164023

kids will still fail, average and above average get to advance in society, people below will fail.

>>6161219
"bright" is a very subjective term

>>6161292
>All you guys do is circle jerk about IQ and post homework problemsproblems
capy spaghetti material

>>6163715
someone wasn't very good at sports

>>6163747
>forgetting schools are businesses
top lel

>>6164048
Why not repeat the truth.

If only there was a way to measure the amount of knowledge accessible to the amount of incentive there is in effort. If not those, some sort of system to measure integration of technology to benefit school systems.

>>6156992
Honestly, an idea I've been considering is to change the education system completely. Even elementary school kids can be useful in industry to carry out repetitive tasks like watching a thermometer and pressing a button when the temperature reaches a certain level. Thus, it would be a good idea to make classes as early as at the elementary level include in-industry experience. This has many advantages: those interested in a particular subject will get further exposure and have the chance to learn 5 grades' worth of content in a few months of industry exposure, while those who didn't care about some subjects might better grasp their use in real life. Furthermore, employers can much more easily tell which person looks like they might become assets or not. The students get real work experience at an early age as a benefit, which will most definitely positively impact their discipline and understanding of the real world. It's completely win-win and should boost education levels tenfold in a decade.

More realistically, though, one very important change we could perform is to give bonus points for (or even have the evaluation depend on) creative solutions to problems, including deducing a formula from another one, proving a theorem from scratch and using it throughout (whether or not it had been taught), etc. As it stands, such activities are strongly discouraged as if they aren't direct cause for malus, they are costly in terms of time, reducing one's score indirectly.

>>6156996
They're only considered good because people from good universities (zurich, london, germany and the like) come do research in the US since there's so many of you and MUH MURRIKAN DREAM. The truth is, the actual quality of education in the US is pretty bad all the way to the post-grad level. Not horrible, absolutely not good, let alone great or "world's best".

>>6156992
LMFAO

>IMPLYING THAT THEY WANT CHILDREN TO BE EDUCATED

IS THIS GUY FOR FUCKING REAL?

>>6158288

Eh, I went to Whitey McWhite school in Whitesville USA and we got an Officer Friendly after Columbine. That was pretty jarring. Never underestimate the paranoid helicopter parents fucking things up for everyone even if it isn't raining violent darkies in your municipality.

>>6161258

You're ignoring the socializing and acculturating effects of public schools. That's at least as valuable as the education part.

>>6164739
>the socializing effects are probably more harmful than beneficial.

Surprise testing of competence for all teachers.

I had Teachers who would study during class for their qualification exams so they must be random and without notice

It's a little alarming how Fascist this thread is. The majority of sentiments and considerations I've read here can be found in any work of history on Germany and Italy's public institution reforms.
I'm sure some of you don't mind that at all, but for those of you with consciences, it'd be nice if you stopped and looked again at your suggestions which are so easily manipulated by a combination of social indoctrination and authoritarian, dogmatic control over critical thinking in both the humanities and sciences.

>>6158057
this and also teahers are asshole too because they are educated alla old school, then they can't into quality education, govt need to reeducate professors and redo textbooks and education structure, and, you can't evaluate math as you evaluate hostoru (I undertand his point so hold your keyboard rage) because math is practice and abstraction and humanitics are understanding and analysis.

>>6164930
Those happened at my school.
They did nothing.
Everybody knew when the surprise visit was going to happen.
Teachers often solicited students to make them look like they're a good teacher in advance in case the surprise visit was early.

>>6164930
My blood boils.

Bring back segregation :D

>>6165129
Make it out of state national testing. The best they could get is a day or two of advance notice.

>>6157020
Cyber charter school is great at not holding back smart students.

Hypothetically ask a hypothetical high schooler any hypotheical questions.

HYPOTHETICALLY @ MODS

>>6164561
LOL

>>6161292
All you guys do is circle jerk over your shitty derivative writing and talk about books you haven't even read.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY

>>6163788
>8. Recess through high school.
isnt this already so?

Bring back slide rulers and abacuses
Force them to only communicate in Morse code or semaphore flags
Gender separation and mandatory boarding schools
Teach them survival foraging, farming, hunting, machining, and self sustainability with minimal technological assistance
Military and weapon training
Zero interaction with their parents

America can't into math. I once had to take a GRE test and I was appalled by the very notion of what Americans call a math test. It's only about computing numbers really fast and performing given exercises in a given time. No wonder STEM majors are so despised on /lit/ when considering the majority of its userbase is so helplessly American.

>>6167310
The Physics/Math Subject GRE or the "SAT 3" General GRE?

>>6167321
I don't remember, but I remember having to do a lot of high school tier stuff. I have rarely felt more like I had wasted a huge chunk of money and time.

An infinite number of mathematicians, a polar bear, an engineer, helium, and a neutrino walk into a bar (ouch). One of the mathematicians then says, "the bar is now empty" and they begin to play hide and seek. The neutrino is then stopped by a police officer. Officer Heisenberg says, "Do you know how fast you were going back there?" The neutrino replies, "I'm positive and a pascal but I don't know where I am." The bar tender then says "You're all idiots, the cows are all black" and pours 10 (in base 2, i mean 10) drinks and there is an extra dollar. The polar bear then dissolves in water while the helium does not react.

Then the engineer sucks a horse's cock. "A solution exists," said the horse as it reached orgasm

>>6156992

Make it all about true education rather than indoctrination and evaluation. All too much people are just fed information in the school and then tested on it. As a whole, there is no real sense of learning in the schools, but, as said before, indoctrination. We teach them without telling them why the things they're being taught are significant. There is no sense of importance to the students.

>>6167332
Then that's the general GREs that nonSTEM majors also have to pass. STEM departments uses it only to assess language skills and ignore the math section.

STOP FEEDING KIDS DOGSHIT.
HEALTHY BODY, HEALTHY MIND
LESS BEHAVIORAL PROBLEMS

>>6156992
shutdown social security, medicare, cut the defense budget in half, murder the federal reserve and anyone supporting it or working for it, you can't fix a subsystem without fixing the governing system first

Use tools like khan academy, reduce class sizes

>>6167614
STOP BLAMING FOOD FOR FATASS KIDS/ADULTS WITH NO SELF CONTROL OVER THEIR SINFUL GLUTTONY
FORCE KIDS TO WEIGHT TRAIN/WORK OUT UNTIL THEY REACH A MINIMAL LEVEL BODY STRENGTH AND STAMINA
CORPORAL PUNISHMENT (in particularly for using caps lock)

>>6168102
>>6167614
>get to college
>realize that smartest hardworking students are mostly /fit/
>nerds who can be smart but are lazy as fuck all play league of legends constantly
treating your body properly definitely has a positive impact on your mental faculties

Gentleman, how do we fix the American public education system?

For simplicity's sake, let's say you were put in charge and given carte blanche to do whatever you think needs to be done.

Seriously, I'd cut funding by 90%. I'd let teachers teach whatever they want without standardization. I'd ban all computers and cellphones. I'd turn off the classroom lights. I'd segregate the boys and the girls and male and female teachers.

I'd recommend a curriculum of discussion based on facts, science, reason, and philosophy. Thats it.

>>6168476
>I'd let teachers teach whatever they want without standardization

Most won't teach shit as they're hobos teaching for sandwitch money and free heating

>>6156992
>Gentleman, how do we fix the American public education system?

Offer free birth control and family planning clinics to basketball american communities. Then you'll have less idiots to worry about.

US educational system is fine. People from parents with normal IQ do well in it.

Give control of public schools to people who actually have fucking children in public schools. The last 2 schools' chancellors in NYC were both private school educated with kids in fucking private schools. One of them had a notable track record of wrecking companies she was at as well.

>>6168476
>hurr ban everything
>le cooties XD
>I'd recommend a curriculum of discussion based on facts, science, reason, and philosophy.
>no math

/pol/ please leave

>>6169663
>US educational system is fine. People from parents with normal IQ do well in it.

But they don't learn anything when getting dem A's

>>6169814
*reddit

>>6169663
Dumb people don't use B.C. or don't use it right.

We'll just have an even higher ratio of dumbasses

>>6157020
>>6158057
>>6158078
>>6158104
>>6158124

Kind of late into the thread. This is ,my first time on sci/, and let me just say that this board has the best quality discussion on the chan by far. Keep it up.

To add to everything, have we considered advances in education by utilizing the internet? There are things out there like Kahn academy that would be excellent resources for kids that can teach themselves.

How about saving tons of resources by giving diplomas for the smarter kids to skip, say, elementary and middle school level math by taking an exam? Save a ton of school resources over the years (teachers, physical paper, facility use) and saves the kid time and lets him/her advance towards his projected carer even sooner.

I would start by deporting all blacks and latinos.

>>6163878
The vectors are orthogonal, so you could apply the Pythagorean theorem to get the length of u+v. They want you to find u+v first, then find the norm of that.

>>6158020
>>6163447
yes. here's original.

>>6170980
Don't deport all blacks and latinos, just the niggers and diet niggers

Educational inequality is a serious problem. We should be holding everyone down to the level of the slowest, poorest students.

>>6172406
How's that any different from right now?

u just dont see th shit which happen in Russia, in murrica education much, MUCH better

There is too much teaching to have kids perform well on standardized tests and not enough teaching to actually learning and the intuition behind things. Kids are taught to plug and chug for math/science and don't really have a chance to actually learn it. That's why people so often say math/science is hard or they're not good at it. Teachers show you the formula and then you memorize it.

As far as reading, language skills, and comprehension that can be attributed to shitty parenting more than shitty teaching.

>>6156992

burn constitution

1) the parents
2) the actual system
.
.
.
9001) the kids
9002) the teachers

>>6158323
>white people actually believe this

perhaps teaching students specific subjects at the lower levels may not effective. A big problem is that students tend not to know how to analyse things. For example, instead of starting off with simple mechanics, we could teach principles of the scientific method and general analysis by say giving students a black box system and ask them to deduce some properties through experimentation. Also keeping them up to date to what's happening now could give them a better perspective on what to do with their life

>>6172594
>parents

why?

>>6173763
Quite simply, how you're raised at home can affect a lot of how you'll behave in school.

For example, my parents read to me every night as a child. They helped give me a love of reading and learning that the education system only further encouraged.

In contrast, a kid whose parents are always gone, because they have to work or something isn't going to receive the same experience. They most likely are going to view reading as a chore, and they're going to struggle in school when they have to read. The school's going to try its best to get these kids reading, but without the parents helping to reinforce it, it's not going to get anywhere.

I'd copy the finnish system, however due to the poverty in some areas I think that installing dorm rooms right next to the schools would be a huge help, those kids can visit their parents in the weekends or viseversa so they don't get home sick and they would have everything they need, food, clothing etc. and access to the school library and any other information they might need/want, to the parents this would be sold as saving money by allowing the state to feed and house the children, it wouldn't be mandaded or required for anyone except those who have been marked as unfit to parent by child protective services.

>>6158078
It's not the matter of being stupid or smart, lots of smart kids just don't give a shit and don't bother paying any attention because their teachers sucked.

>>6163798
Not when the content knowledge is scaled far higher than just "they're high school concepts so don't worry about the why, it just works". 100% would be knowledge approaching a masters level to give bright children a content level above something that bores them and a taste of what is to come in fields so they have more exposure to higher level concepts. 50% content knowledge would be ~C level grade.
>>6165737
I mean like high schoolers get some type of recess.

You can change the system all you want but a the end of the day, you have no control over the parents and how they raise their kids. This has a lot of influence on how they perform at school.

I see the effect everyday when classmates that even come from poor neighborhoods do very well in their majors. The common denominator is that they had parents that cared in elementary and middle school and in highschool they actually gave a shit about their education and got good grades.

>>6158057
>Everyone thought Nietzsche was a crackpot while he was alive.
Are you retarded? Nietzsche was appointed as the professor at 24, and he was highly respected by many people.

>>6173854
>50% content knowledge would be ~C level grade.

No, that's utterly failing. Current grade inflated colleges might be getting away with that kind of shit but you really should be getting at least 80% in everything if you want to say you've learned it. High schools should be even stricter.

>I mean like high schoolers get some type of recess.

They have that now. It's called (a double) lunch where you can leave and do whatever you want.

>>6156992
The (sometimes) official stance of US Republicans is to stop the teaching of critical thinking skills in school. So, stop voting Republican.

>>6174846
[citation needed]

"Waiting for Superman" exposes the bottom line. 10x more spent per student for no additional gain.

Primary school-teachers: typically women, typically not very intelligent to begin with.

Solution: gender separated schools are worth a shot, more recess, follow Waldorf model (they turn out some well-adjusted adults), get all the computers and standard testing crap out of the classrooms, give the kids a rich environment to be creative in.

>>6175451
>more recess

How would that help?

>give the kids a rich environment to be creative in

Kids are creative enough, they're just not learning anything while doing that.

>>6176058
Kids can't sit still for hours on end and stay focused like adults do. They need lots of outdoor physical activity in order to be able to sit down and learn in the classroom.

>>6176066
There's already plenty of recess/activities for K-3 grades. Older kids don't need it.

>>6156992
I would set up a global lottery. Each ticket costs $1 US and you choose 12 numbers between 0 and 999. 70% of each $1 goes to the jackpot, 5% to administration and 25% to the American School system. The difference in this lottery is there is no $100,000,000 jackpots. EVERY time the pot hits $1,000,000 someone wins. With 7 billion potential players you could be giving someone $1,000,000 every 5 minutes. I'd have a drawing once a week though and keep drawing that day until enough $1,000,000 winners have been selected to cover the pot. I would then stop using federal or even lottery monies to pay for sports programs. I'd put choir, band, art, home economics back into EVERY school in this country. If there is enough left after those programs are back then they can have some sports back. Only after I have a very large $ buffer to cover overtime for 20% of all teachers.

Schools would start teaching the metric system in kindergarten the first year and follow a progressive increase with that years students all the way through college. Say we start in September 2014 teaching the metric system. In 2015 Kindergarten and 1st grade will learn metric, 2016 kindergarten, 1st and 2nd grade will learn metric. By 2026 all students in America will be on the same page as the rest of the world. Parents will be required to be more involved in their childrens education or be fined for not allowing the school to do it's job. This means, if the household has a parent who has the time, they are required to spend 3 hours a week at the school assisting the teachers with teaching the students. If the household does not have an available parent for whatever reason, (and there are plenty) then the parent's MUST agree that if the child has to be kept in school until 6pm for extra tutoring the parent MUST comply or be fined. This is where that 20% overtime comes in. If a school has 20 teachers then 4 of them will be paid to stay late to make sure there really is no child left behind. cont

>>6176103
If the lottery system does well enough the extra money can be used to start building colleges for below average students to make sure that NOT 1 SINGLE CHILD doesn't miss out on college. All students would be required to take a minimum of 3 elective courses (art, music, choir, band, home ech, automotive, woodshop, etc). Next step would be to take the first month of teachings from 1st grade and squeeze it into kindergarten, then take the first 2 months of teachings from 2nd grade and squeeze it into 1st grade, and so on. By their senior year in high school students will be learning what they would in their first year of college. By their senior year of college they will be into doctorate or masters study. I would even consider shortening the summer break to just the month of June or July. In Japan the students start school at age 3 and go to school EVERY DAY until they finish college.

As the "most powerful" nation on Earth, we are shitting on our own children and selling our country to the highest bidder. This should be the other way around.

>>6176126
The US needs not teach kids kanjis. Also, asian education isn't anything we should aspire to, as it is about robotizing humans and forbidding learning and curiosity in favor of conformance and uniformity. This results in labor incapable of producing anything innovative without further training, and even with said training asians tend to underperform in high research positions compared to their western counterparts.

Also, weekends and off days.

>>6176140
So home school your lackies. I want my children to know how to do things beyond "oh dude that's cool"

>>6176103
>Schools would start teaching the metric system in kindergarten

why dumbass?

>>6176169
Asian system is not even "oh dude that's cool", it's "oh dude, what is the 5th symbol in the Bernoulli equation for solving ODE" because again, the system is designed to prize conformance and uniformity above all else. That does mean you're using every single moment of your time to learn every single letter of every single textbook by heart if you want to pass. This is also the opposite of what we should strive for, and you do agree with the sentiment, since instead we should strive for a system that encourages curiosity and learning, which by definition means that kids would be able to do things since they would have grasped the entire intrinsic purpose of each concept instead of simply cramming every concept's shape within their robotic brain.

>>6176194
Read the rest of the sentence dumbass!

>>6176324
And why is metric so important? It's just as arbitrary as imperial units.

There's nothing to learn and since everything is still written with imperial, nothing will change.

>>6159902
>>1st Grade
>Basic addition/subtraction

doing this for one year

>>6159902
>American Government and Political Science

'no'

Also
>Complex Analysis and Fourier Analysis in 11th grade

'no'

>>6177551
They're six

>>6177560
Exactly, six year olds are not gonna sit there for six hours a day every day learning the same topic, you need variety.

>>6177557
>American Government and Political Science

The population should have an idea how their government actually works if they want to vote.

>Also
>>Complex Analysis and Fourier Analysis in 11th grade

Complex Analysis and Harmonic Analysis is pretty fundamental if you want to do anything remotely technical.

>>6177563

Well that's exactly what happening now.
http://www.corestandards.org/math/content/1/introduction

>>6177578
Actually, right now is 2~3 years for learning addition/subtraction before they even start multiplication.

do it how it is done in Finland

>>6156992
>Gentleman, how do we fix the American public education system?


System's not broken. It's just that there's too many low IQ students in these schools.

You can't fix that.

Fix immigration. Fix ghettos.

By giving all kids a laptop!
Just kidding. That's a horrible idea. Why do politicians have such a boner for it?


Simple.
First stop treating education like a competition, that's very counter-productive.
One rather radical method of doing this is making grades secret; as in it's illegal to put them on your resume or judge a job candidate using them; this will force employers to develop different ways of judging applicant competency instead; hopefully ways that actually work.

Second allow people to fail, but give them the tools to pick themselves back up if they so desire. The world needs garbage men and shoe salesmen. Don't hold 30 kids back because 1 kid fucks up; put him in the ``special'' class and forget about him

>>6177585
>do it how it is done in Finland

FInland doesn't do anything much differently. The difference is that Finland doesn't have millions of low IQ idiots.

by forgotting intelligent desing

>>6177586
You've clearly never seen a school in Florida

>>6177599
>You've clearly never seen a school in Florida

Why don't you tell us about public shoals in Florida. Is Spanish official language there too?

>>6177603
>shoals
schools… fuck androshit autocorrect. gotta get rid of this shit phone.

>>6177596
teaching more organized and teachers and methods and food and atmospehe and everythin is just well... better
and also not that many niggers

>>6177592
>One rather radical method of doing this is making grades secret; as in it's illegal to put them on your resume or judge a job candidate using them; this will force employers to develop different ways of judging applicant competency
Uh... employers don't give a shit about your grades.

underage b&?

>>6177578
>Well that's exactly what happening now.

it's not though, there's no country in the world where 1st graders only do math.

>>6177586
>You can't fix that.

Yes you can. Let them fail out and educate the educable ones.

>>6177610
You've obviously never met someone who works in a field such as finance.

>>6177610
Also which school you went to.
Highschool grades are important in getting accepted to a "good" school.
Many people will judge you at face value based on whether you school was "good" or not.
Competency needs to be emphasised so students focus their efforts on learning rather than getting grades.

>>6177609
well, you answered your own question. finland's largely homogenous and kids are from stable families. US population of intelligent races is in a decline and is being flooded by minorities who are of lower IQ and that's the core issue.

You can't fix stupid. No matter how many special needs teachers you assign to teach someone with Downs, they'll never manage to teach them more than to tie their own shoelaces.

Same goes with US public schools that are full of minorities. No matter how much money you spend, you will not increase their IQ.


That's why threads like this one are so stupid. US educational system isn't broken.

>>6177572
>The population should have an idea how their government actually works if they want to vote.

15 year olds don't vote

>Complex Analysis and Harmonic Analysis is pretty fundamental if you want to do anything remotely technical.

I didn't say it's not fundamental, it's too hard for your average 11th graders.

>>6177628
>neonazi tier racism
>IQ is the all important number
Obvious troll is obvious.

>>6177613
That list is mostly of ideal STEM education in primary and secondary schools. As far as math goes, you can expect 1st graders to grasp much more than addition and subtract (and multiplication if they're smart) fairly well.

blog.tncnet.com/blog/rich-tehrani/personal/why-are-finnish-students-so-smart.html

>>6177613
That list is mostly of ideal STEM education in primary and secondary schools. As far as math goes, you can't expect 1st graders to grasp much more than addition and subtract (and multiplication if they're smart) fairly well.

>>6177572
>Complex Analysis and Harmonic Analysis is pretty fundamental if you want to do anything remotely technical.

>Complex Analysis and Harmonic Analysis are used in about 0.01% of jobs.

>>6177636
it's called FACTS. you should look look at them sometime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream_Science_on_Intelligence

and it's funny how you idiotic SJWs bring up nazis when US was the first to institute eugenics.

>>6177629
>15 year olds don't vote

And they can't drive either but we teach them drivers ed at that age too. It gives them the tools to understand the news they see everyday so over the years when they turn 18, they know enough to form educated options on topics and politicians.

>>6177629
>I didn't say it's not fundamental, it's too hard for your average 11th graders.

If they passed 10th grade Real Analysis and Abstract Algebra; they should be able to keep up the pace.

>>6177654
and it's funny how you idiotic AMERUKKUNS bring up racial intelligence when the world considers white America to be one of the stupidest racial groups that exist

>>6156992

You can't fix this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_achievement_gap_in_the_United_States

>>6177640
see
>to do anything remotely technical

Being a code monkey or janitorial engineer doesn't count as technical work.

>>6177661
>world considers white America to be one of the stupidest racial groups that exist

[citation needed]

americans ARE insane for destroying their, once prosperous, country. america is slowly sliding into shit-tier.

>>6177674
>slowly sliding into
Hahahaha, nope.
Get a brain, morans. Foreigners consider you to be a joke.
You're certainly the niggers of the white race

>>6177679
you can't even provide any citations, troll.

DISMISSED.

>>6177691
No need.
You know it's true.
I know it's true.
Everybody here knows it's true.

>>6177691
>provide any citations

Any news story about America in the last 11 years

>>6177707
i know we're so rich that dirty foreigners can't even cry about it because we own the rights to their tears

>>6178646
>i

>>6178646
You're not rich though.
You're dirt poor.
Just like an unemployed person who buys a Ferrari with his credit card isn't rich, he's just an idiot who put himself into several lifetimes worth of debt

>>6178658
Hah. American debts are in American dollars. That means the American government has the power to inflate them into nothingness with the stroke of a pen.

Make no mistake, the world investing in American debt is just one more way the USA has power over the world, not the other way around.

>>6178676
>That means the American government has the power to inflate them into nothingness with the stroke of a pen.
And in effect cause the complete collapse of their country.
Hyperinflation is far more damaging than debt.
Would be hilarious if you tried though.
Not only would it be suicidal, but other countries could then simply swoop in and repossess America, since it wouldn't be capable of defending itself (inb4 delusional redneck response of "I would fight their armies off with my yokel friends and my right to bear arms!").

>>6156992
More participation awards, less dodgeballz at heads, teachers shouldn't be allowed to discpline when they are cussed at, no contact recess sports, and absolutely no competition in the classroom or otherwise. This is how we fix it, oh wait...

>>6178685
everything up to the last sentence is right.
If America's economy plunges, the world's economy will plunge.
It would not be pretty.

>>6178685
>And in effect cause the complete collapse of their country.
>Hyperinflation is far more damaging than debt.
God, you're such a fucking child.

The American economy doesn't need fiat money to function. The technologies are all in place to support abandonment of the fiat dollar, in favor of instant trading of diverse fungible properties, such as commodities and stocks.

We have instant worldwide communication and cheap, fast computers to handle the details of negotiating complex transactions. We don't need the simplicity of a single currency badly enough anymore to accept such a big injection of irrationality into the transaction.

Get the regulatory structure in place, get Americans using their smartphones to buy groceries with gallons of crude and shares of Apple, put the dollar back on the gold standard at $1 billion to the gram, make a few laws tweaking contracts between Americans, and just like that America's debt problems are gone and it has the world's most efficient monetary system.

There are good options for striking off these debts. The power lies where I said it does.

>>6158020
It's both
The parents are a huge problem though
Most stereotypes are true for a reason. Why do asians have a good work ethic?? Parents.

>>6178725
>stocks as currency
This is so retarded I don't even know where to start.

>>6178794
People already use stocks and derivatives as currency. It's a huge part of the economy. We're just not set up so it's convenient for small transactions.

>>6178685
>Hyperinflation is far more damaging than debt.

correct.

and look what's just around the corner:

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/hyperinflation-just-around-corner-175714465.html
for years we've been able to borrow from our future generations and sadle our kids, grandkids and gran-grandkids with debt but not anymore. yeah, we're fucked.

>>6178801
Because laws
lots and lots of laws

>fix the American public education system?

Why?
It's perfect.
For them(tm).

Btw: is it true that debt is future tax?

Mandatory (re-)Education for all Adults

http://news.yahoo.com/us-adults-score-below-average-worldwide-test-090114407.html

>>6179349
>Btw: is it true that debt is future tax?

well yes. think about it. you borrow something with a 30 year maturation so who do you think will have to pay it back? people who make these deals are politicians and they're all over 40 years old so they'll either be dead or retired when these bonds mature. in either case, they won't give a fuck.

>>6156992
I think we need to teach less math and science:

Elementary School :
Arithmetic, Shapes, etc.
Junior High school:
Introduce variables, basic polynomial math and some geometry.
High school:
Algebra, some more geometry
If they're precocious seniors, teach trig, or at least introduce them to trig.
In college we should ease them into calc in their 2nd year, after they learn trig in their first. Then by their 4th year, they can begin introducing them to proofs and such.

Change the culture;
Pay teachers buttloads. They all get really nice cars and suits for free.
Manipulate media to make teachers look sexy and cool.
Also, make the profession competitive; the best do great, the middle of the road do pretty well, the bad ones get shitcanned fast.
High school students with >3.0 GPA get table service and better food in the cafeteria.
Students with >3.5 GPA get Fridays off.
Students with <2.0 GPA stay after school and mop the floors.
Make education mandatory until age 20; if you insist on fucking up you are going to be at it a looooooong time.

>>6179667
>Pay teachers buttloads. They all get really nice cars and suits for free.
Fuck no.
>High school students with >3.0 GPA get table service and better food in the cafeteria.
what?

standardized testing is optional, pay teachers more, give students the option to specialize earlier, cheaper college, give students more control over their academic lives.
tl;dr gief money pls

>>6180746
>standardized testing is optional

Sadly if that were to completely disappear, most schools would begin teaching even less than they do now to artificially look better to parents.

There needs to be some sort of a system to judge the education they are receiving and probably a more fine grained one than the all or nothing one we have now.

>pay teachers more

Teachers are already paid double what fast food workers are and half of what engineers make. They don't need more money.

>>6181066
>implying teachers aren't more important than engineers

\jewcommand{\t}[1]{\displaystyle{#1 \atop {#1~~#1}}} \t{\t{\t{\t{\t{\t{\t{\triangle}}}}}}}

>>6181094
Who is more important?

The guy who designs the bridges you drive over
The guy who spends his life going "Repeat after me, Me cago en tu puta madre y tus muertos"

>>6164561
????

>>6174222
You seem to have missed what he was saying Nietzsche cock rider

>>6181066
>Teachers are already paid double what fast food workers are
Wow it's fucking nothing.jpg

>>6181066
>optional
learn to into reading comprehension, and also other countries with education systems rated better than the US do it

>>6156996
thats not because of a good quality school, but the quantity of students beaing able to take an education. That +scholarships to gifted students, making poorpeople able to become something..

>>6157005
math and physics have an answer. You don't have that luxury with ex. History.
When did WW2 start? 1936 Japan in China, 1939Germany Poland? Or earlier when they expanded? Pearlharbor? France?

>>6157020
Good! Now we only need increase the amount of teachers by 1500-3500%!

>>6161050
You are born with an "IQ potensial", so you will experience a drop in scores if you are not taugth to think.

>>6163659
You do realise that saying your an A-students means nothing for the rest of the world.
In Norway grades goes from 1(fail) to 6. And a Norwegian average of 4 is the same as your A. Only a 100%+ gives you a 6, it have to be perfect with a little extra. Unfortunally this is changing, and getting that 6 is easier than it used to(90-95%), and scores on national tests have become more important than what you know.

>>6163686
why would you become anything "dangerous"? YOur healthcare systems would scare me away from jobs like that! :S

>>6165122
ohh no! You can say what you want about the nazies, but they knew how to run a school! The level of their schoolars were far above anything else! The US had good ones too, but nowere close to what they did in Germany at the time.

>>6176103
this is actually a really good idea! (the lottery part atleast)

>>6181128
the guy who gives you a fish or teaches you to fish?

>>6181144
35K is decent enough for them. The money in society should go to the selects who been predestined to be rich.

>>6181722
k