/sci/ - Science & Math

one of my professor's said anything that has science in the name is probably not a science.
(this isn't completely true: material science)
political science
computer science
we had a "sales engineer" at my old company

>>6001174

>>6001174
It depends of what you consider as computer science. Alan Turing's works have led to major discoveries in logic, some of which being too complicated even for mathematicians. Cryptography and algorithmics can compare with analysis and algebra in terms of complexity, and the approach is quite similar. On the other hand, programming IPad softwares isn't near doing science.

>>6001180
But computer science is mathematics.

>>6001180
Computer science is for people smart enough to want to get a easy cush job.
Stop being jealous

>>6001176
Companies jsut hire regular engines as salesmen because of their mathematical formation. The same applies for the oens working iwth stock markets and finances. But calling it "sales engineer" is just plain stupid.

>>6001219
he was a salesman.
It's a small company and we sometimes get weird names. The head of HR was getting really excited about giving me a new job title.

>>6001223
Welp. Because here in Hu3land we hire some engineers who are not autists and can speak properly to sell stuff because they can answer technical questions on site and can into math.

>>6001215
No it's not and stop spreading that lie

Physical "science".

What if I'm double-majoring in CompSci and Math?

Neuro"science"

>>6001223
Calling someone a salesman is too crass. People don't want me to feel like they are being sold something. You tickle her ass before you fuck it.

>>6001311
You're still a faggot for seeking validation on the Internet.

>>6001180
Engineering is for people who are too stupid for mathematics and physics.

And physics is for people who are too stupid for mathematics.

>>6001574
Physics is for people who don't want to study a glorified liberal art

>>6001574
No one ?
Ok, let me do this for you
>and math is for people too stupid for philo.

>>6001313
Neuroscience is a new field and recovers too many types of works.
But some part of it are really science : it's basically chem+signalprocessing+mathematical paradigm, and experiences in order to reject the latter or not.

Of course, some psycho guys are too hapy to have this new term in their vocabulary, and write shitty papers in Freud-style labelled "neuroscience".

Same with "economics" -> most of it is not science, but you have math people in there who do serious simulations/models. (I speak of micro-economy, I never read convincing "science" work when it comes to macro)

>>6001223
>The head of HR was getting really excited about giving me a new job title.
You know, I hope, that normally such excitements mean the HR department think that they can get away with zero pay rise by offering you a fancy title instead.

Often this works.

>>6001536
So you are a condom sales"enginner"?

>>6001557
Just can't win on the internet can you?

CS is in the engineering department at my school
>stay mad

>>6001311
Since you listed CS first you're probably going to half ass that math major and take the easiest courses you can find.

I'd still trash bin your resume

>>6001653
>being a recruiter
welcome to the bottom of the food chain as far as doing cool is is concerned

>>6001176
Good thing we call it Informatik over here.

>>6001574

mathematics is for people that are not capable to apply they field and invent new technology.

pro tip : as long as you are not phd in physics or math. you probably have the same math and phys as an engineer

>>6003138
That doesn't make it less shallow and watered down.

I'm a Rape Engineer. I'm doing a test on some new alternatives to chloroform.

Who wants to offer their hottest sister/daughter (please no wives. Those have been used and abused too many times)?

"Process math" hasn't got the same ring.

It actually has nothing to do with computers, nor science.

>>6003273
It's magic. And I am a fucking wizard.

>>6003138

>>6001176
neuroscience

>>6001180
And why is that a bad thing?
I feel only the stupid would dare to make fun of someone that's even more stupid than they are.

>>6001220
>cubicle forever
>cush

>>6003285
>>>/g/ is that way

>>6003280
And yet programmers make more money potentially then the so-called "real" scientists. I wonder why that is...

>>6004477
Professional athletes make more. I guess they're truly superior.

I never considered computer science to be a science, but then I started thinking recently.
Computer science (actual computer science, not MUH PROGRAMMING VIDYA GAEMS) is essentially a subfield of mathematics.
Mathematics is a science, therefore computer science is too.

>>6004490

it have nothing to do with vidya games. is just the definition of words. even tho /sci/ think science is the best thing in the world doest mean that it is.

math is not a science. read the title of this board

/sci/ - Science & Math

and computer science is of course math

>>6004490
>Mathematics is a science
u wot

>>6004477
Former scientist and former programmer here.

The reason is simple: programmers satisfy a more imminent need that is more visibly imminent and where the results and payoffs are more imminent.

Science and research is totally different. Sure, everyone would like to see more money going into research, particularly medicine and pharma once they are seriously ill. But then it is too late since new drugs easily take 15 years to reach the shelves. Before getting ill people will very happily overlook this need they deep down know will be urgent one day.

What's the definition of mathematics?

>>6001174
ITT: Butthurt shit-majors who will never make more than $80k a year.

Everything you're using to make these troll posts is due to computer science.

CS has produced more billionaires than all of the other science combined.

>>6005002
(cont)

If you're not majoring in CS, you're more than likely gonna end up in a shit profession with very little growth prospects. And CS people are working day & night automating and trying to displace your shitty job. And it's working. Automation will eliminate the need for most of the other shit professions. AI will rule you all. And CS people are in charge of it

>That's right: According to BLS, 62% of the growth in jobs in science-related fields will be in computer science. That's more than 750,000 new jobs, and a total of more than 1,350,000 job openings. How does that compare with the number of degrees likely to be granted by U.S. institutions? In 2009, those institutions granted something like 95,000 computer science degrees, including about 32,000 associate's degrees and fewer than 1600 Ph.D.s. Over 10 years, that adds up to more than the number of new jobs that BLS expects will be added, but significantly fewer than the number of job openings.

>It's when you compare these numbers to other fields that you realize how much better prospects are likely to be in computer science. Consider that in the physical sciences, for example, BLS predicts that fewer than 36,000 new jobs will be created—a 3% increase. Counting replacements, BLS predicts 121,900 openings in all fields of physical science, at all degree levels, before 2020. According to the National Science Foundation, about 27,000 people were granted degrees in the physical sciences in 2009, at all degree levels, including associate's degrees. Multiply that by 10 and compare. You'll quickly see that supply is predicted to surpass demand.

LOOK AT THE FUCKING CHART! Do you other majors even fucking try anymore?! Jesus, what a bunch of slackers and lazy & useless parasites. We'll have to do everything now.

>>6001176

Political Science isn't using the term "science" strictly as a word for the study of nature. But political science is math intensive, involves statistics and polling, which (loosely put) is a "science".

I don't like it either, and that ended up being my degree, so yeah. . .

>>6004484
Top professional athletes make big money because they're the absolute best at something people care about, even if it's not a practical activity. Most talented athletes make little to no money from their talent.

science=knowledge
Science=natural world

Know the difference. It could save your life.

>>6005009
>slackers and lazy & useless parasites

Yeah, because those gazing into their crystal balls have always been able to predict the future 10 years forward with zero errors. Which is the reason why there is no financial crisis, why everyone earns 7 digit figures with 6 weeks paid holiday.

Ummm.

>>6005034
>statistics
>BA in PS

Standing in a corner soliciting people for "polls" is not a science.

>>6005009
>contribution to total growth
>2010-2020
>it's only 2013

I guess CS majors really are stupid. You're on par with peak oil morons.

>>6005068

I agree. I was talking more about organizations like the Pew Research Center, which spends hours and hours filtering, contacting and interviewing people for polls, and then spends even more time just to get the margin of error as low as possible.

>>6005068

Also, leaning heavy in math gives you a BS in PS, not a BA. Why did you go and post that?

>>6005081

The PRC is great and all, but in the end all that math is just using 1% of the math it requires to even do a university lab report (Confidence Intervals, Standard Deviation, and siggie figgies).

>>6005083
Because I didn't know they handed BS degrees for majors that don't require calculus (not BUSINESS calculus).

>>6005080
Peak oil people are funny because peak oil has been 5 years away for the past 20+ years

>>6005089
>Confidence Intervals, Standard Deviation, and siggie figgies

But you still have to use those things in polling statistics. It may not be a university lab setting or under the same roof as a math department, but that doesn't somehow mean that the data is objectively irrelevant or "not-math".

>>6005089

I actually ended up going for a B.A. on account of double minoring in two languages (Spanish and Russian, don't ask) which at the time seemed like a good idea. You have to declare a language as a minor in order to be "certified" bilingual. That, or pay $300 for a certification test.

>>6001180
Computer Science is the closest related major to Mathematics at my university. I am majoring in both.

>>6005109
I guess you're right, but it's more "arithmetic" than a mathematical science. It's plug and chug. The machine is set, you just have to pour the data into it.

The formulae are taught as an instrument and it's immutable. I highly doubt a PS major can break down their formulae into its component parts, explain it, then put it back together in an entirely new fashion if a new theory is developed.

Which means any dropout can do it, provided they at least got a passing grade in college algebra.

>>6001215
fucking wow

>>6005122
CS majors have to take linear algebra. Cut them some slack. Algebra is tough. That's why they teach it in high school.

>>6001604
I guess it sucks that your discipline is 100% reliant on mathematics

>>6005127
Linear algebra has nothing to do with the algebra in high school bro, and yeah I appreciate that CS majors have to learn some first year mathematics, it must be quite hard for them

>>6005114
>Computer Science is the closest related major to Mathematics at my university

Your university doesn't offer physics?

>>6005133
or EE?

>>6005139

Isn't CS the offspring of EE?

>>6005118
>Which means any dropout can do it, provided they at least got a passing grade in college algebra

You're right about that, and the plug and chug part.

But in a job interview, the BS PS graduate who can intelligently talk shop about politics and show two or three research projects with statistics professors is (in my opinion) going to have a better shot than the math dropout.

>>6005133
Yeah, it does. Physics may use integrals, derivatives and vectors, but it never deals with logic, proofs or discrete mathematics.

>>6005118

But most students can't even into arithmetic these days.

>>6005127

High school level algebra is a cruel joke with no punchline.

They don't teach shit in high school. They could have taught college algebra in middle schools but instead they pussyfooted and coddled the students and now we've got a whole generation of poor bastards who only know how to beat a standardized test.

>>6005141
No that's CompE (in America, fuck the Aussies that call it CS)

>>6005144
>Judging an entire field base on freshman courses

0/10

Wait, so is this thread implying that if you want to learn how to code and program, you should skip CS and major in . . . math?

>>6005153
>if you want to learn how to code and program
>major in

Why major in anything at all? Teach it to yourself.

If you want to learn how to plumb you don't major in ChemE. If you want to learn how to fix your car you don't major in MechE. If you want to learn how to code, why do you think you need a college education?

>>6005159

It's a common misconception that CS is about programming because... the required coursework is learning more than one programming lingo.

>>6005144
Discrete math? Is this the dumbed down "lol this is a group, lol this is a graph, are we doing math yet" course for people who wouldn't be able to grasp math on university level?

>>6005153
If you want to "code and program", then read a fucking book or online tutorial. You'll learn much more about programming than you'll ever learn in a shitty CS freshman java course.

>>6005159

Because the culture of America is that you prove yourself worthy of employment by having a degree.

You don't want to learn how to fix your car because of a career, you want to learn so you can fix your car. It's really not comparable.

If you apply for a job and say you autodicated (or whatever "self-taught" means these days) then they'll "into the trash it goes" your application and instead choose whoever has a fancy sheet of paper.

I know that's a fucked up way of describing it but it's accurate.

>>6005152
I am not saying that physics doesn't use mathematics. I am saying that it doesn't use the same type of mathematics as a Comp Sci or Mathematics major. Actual logic (not just the idea) and proofs are not used in physics.

>>6005163
Yes, discrete mathematics may not be formal or incredibly difficult proofs, but it does use them.

>>6005165
>you prove yourself worthy of employment by having a degree.

It's essentially having a trusted witness guarantee that you're not lying about your skills. Hiring is incredibly expensive, and learning that you hired the wrong person too late can mean a big loss.

>>6005172
Are you seriously implying that the concept of "proof" is something special? Literally any university student who took an introductory math course will have to do proofs. I seriously hope you're still in high school.

>>6005174

You described it better than me.

And I know that it's kind of a fucked up system considering you're essentially going to college so you can get a diploma instead of going to get "educated". That's very fucked up.

Problem is, the culture. America (probably the rest of the world but I have no way to prove it) does not allow the exception to be the rule.

The exception: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_taught

>>6005182
Have you ever taken an analysis class? Summation proofs that you do in Calculus II or III doesn't mean shit. You obviously are an undergrad, definitely not a mathematics major unless you are an underclassmen.

>>6005182

Hell I'm pretty sure we had to do proofs in highschool. Of course my Algebra teacher made us do them; it never ended up on the state standardized test.

Thank you overworked underpaid highschool teacher who taught us in spite of the state education agency.

I'm a programmer, I know people who studied maths, physics, business, games design etc
Unless its a specialist job what your degree is in doesn't really matter

>>6005186

Why are you harping on the benefits of being a math major?

>>6005195
I was arguing against
>>6003280

>>6005191
>what your degree is in doesn't really matter

This. I don't know why people laugh at a person who majors in a field that THAT person wants to have a career in.

>you majored in psychology? What a loser!
>you're a psychologist? What did you major in college? Psychology? How interesting!

>>6005163
>Discrete math? Is this the dumbed down "lol this is a group, lol this is a graph, are we doing math yet" course for people who wouldn't be able to grasp math on university level?

Yes. CS majors think it makes them hardcore theoretical mathematicians

>>6005172
>I am not saying that physics doesn't use mathematics. I am saying that it doesn't use the same type of mathematics as a Comp Sci or Mathematics major. Actual logic (not just the idea) and proofs are not used in physics.

You're a retard that doesn't have the slightest clue what the fuck you're saying.

>>6005186
Oh wow, you took an analysis class. That's pretty much the pinnacle of modern math. You must be very smart. Could you please explain the relationship between n-cobordisms and braided monoidal categories to me?

>>6005208
>the relationship between n-cobordisms and braided monoidal categories
These results are standard. QED

>>6005208
babby who read some pop math by baez on cobordism hypothesis detected

>>6005186
Do you think calc 2, vector calc, and DE are the highest level math employed by physicist?

Complex Analysis
Fourier Analysis
Metric Spaces
Probability Theory
Functional Analysis
Abstract Algebra
Group Representation Theory
Lie Algebra/Groups
Differential Geometry/Topology
Numerical Analysis
Analysis and Theory of PDEs
Combinatorics and Graph Theory when they come up in all of the above (which happens far more often then most would think)

Are all heavily used in EE/Physics. In comparison the math in CS is quite trivial and not because it's "different".

Science: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

Computer science: The study of the principles and use of computers.

Logic: Reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.

Mathematics: The abstract science of number, quantity, and space. Mathematics may be studied in its own right ( pure mathematics ), or as it is applied to other disciplines such as physics and engineering ( applied mathematics ).

Computer science has a large range in difficulty from quantum computing to the simple website or app coding. What should be noted is that a program or a system cannot work if it is not made correctly. It crashes, it loops, it does not function. What this means is that when creating the system you are literally working with truth. The experimentation is direct. Much like the abstract concepts of mathematics and logic, the experimentation is done quite literally as you perform the task. With the development of graphics displays, networking, and robotic software it is clear that we are deal with the absolute truths of nature when creating a program.

Although computer science can be used for insignificant tasks much like math can be used to count ducks in a pond, it is essentially to everyday life and the production of truths. It quite literally is a science.

>>6001174

Somebody has to fix the bad code of others. Also, together with the engineers, we will rule your all.

I'm majoring in a social science

Get at me nerds

>>6005248
lol

>tfw I'm a math major and the computer science modules are the hardest

I've never understood how everyone can see it as being so easy?

>>6005199

Usually that person doesn't want a career in that, they just choose something based on what light-hearted interest they have. Loads of people I know end up choosing something 'broad' (business, law) to just do something

>>6005235
yes, and marketers sell the product of your job and get the money.

And they're just talking and designing shitty ppt...

>>6005265
What modules exactly ?

>>6005290
Formal logic and turing's machines
mwhahahahaha

Computer science is very science, you dumbasses. We use the scientific method (trial and error) to find out how to make the most aesthetic GUI in java.

>>6005290
Algorithms and data structures in java

>>6005295
The scientific method isn't defined by trial and error

>>6001574
>Engineering is for people who are too stupid for physics

I'm in engineering physics, where's your god now?

>>6005152
physics uses the calculus of variations and abstract algebra too.

>>6005165
and it's particularly stupid with computer science because learning to code is done outside of class.

>>6005208
no, because they're trivial

>>6005248
topkek

>>6005265
they're trivial for a comp sci person. And they're nowhere near as advanced as, say functional analysis

>>6005337
then why can't you explain it?

>>6005298
>Java

Shit_in -> Shit_out();

>>6005080
Yes, presidential commission and Bureau of Labor Statistics is lying. Right.

Aspies. Aspies everywhere.

>106 posts and 13 image replies omitted. Click here to view.

>>6005397
>a projection is always reliable

How's that word processing business going for you, son?

I'm in pre-calculus, and I find theoretical mathematics fucking boring. I'd rather apply it to real world activities.

>>6001176

Your professor is an idiot, or he didn't think out his conclusion, which makes him a fool.

Any degree you get will be a B.S. M.S. or Ph.D.

So, your "professor" concluded that a Master of Science - Biology/EE/NE/Astronomy/Etc. isn't involved in science.

>>6005401

>growth
>good

Did you know that the growth of wal-mart greeters in the last 20 years has been exponential? Obviously, it's a great career to prep for. Everyone will eventually go to Wal-mart, afterall.

>>6005413

He probably meant any major like Political Science.

How to know if you picked a shit major

>Go to http://www.bls.gov/ooh/
>Search your major in the search bar
>Pick the one thats most similar to your major/job
>Look at "Job Outlook, 2010-20"

stay pleb fools.

>>6005414

someone's butthurt.

look at this… so while you're trying to troll us how CS is not a science and is irrelevant, I think it's YOU who will have to settle as a walmart greeter.


>Particle Physicists Facing Insane Competition For Work

'The numbers make the problem clear. In 2007, the year before CERN first powered up the LHC, the lab produced 142 master's and Ph.D. theses, according to the lab's document server. Last year it produced 327. (Fermilab chipped in 54.) The two largest particle detectors fed by the LHC, the A Toroidal LHC Apparatus (ATLAS) and the Compact Muon Solenoid (CMS)—which both independently spotted the Higgs—boast teams of 3000 and 2700 physicists. By themselves, the CMS and ATLAS teams minted at least 174 Ph.D.s last year. That abundance seems unlikely to vanish anytime soon, as last year ATLAS had 1000 grad students and CMS had 900. In contrast, the INSPIRE Web site, a database for particle physics, currently lists 124 postdocs worldwide in experimental high-energy physics, the sort of work LHC grads have trained for. The situation is equally difficult for postdocs trying to make the jump to a junior faculty position or a permanent job at a national lab. The Snowmass Young Physicists survey received responses from 956 early-career researchers, including 343 postdocs. But INSPIRE currently lists just 152 "junior" positions, including 61 in North America.'"

With BS is CS, you can code an app and become a millionaire. With a BS in Physics, you're not qualified to do shit. Unless you have a PhD in physics, you're nothing. Same goes for chemistry (Chem Eng is different of course and a degree in Chem Eng is worth a lot more than a Chem one).

>25
>taking pre-calculus
>Trying to get my associates degree in Computer Information System and Business Adminstration
>Any entry level apple bee's I want
>15k starting

Get on my level.

>>6005492
>implying all these things

Oh good grief. So you found one bad scenario with particle physicists. I guess that means all physicists can't find a job, anymore.

I thought CS involved "logic"? You seem to be having a hard time there, kid. Besides, why in the hell are you trying to justify your major to ME? I guess you're just trying to convince yourself that you made a good choice and you're looking for affirmation online. That's kind of sad.

>>6005494

You honestly don't even need a degree to code an application. You just need to learn the current hot language and start coding. Java, C++, C#/xcode are one of the top three right now.

>>6005498
so much ad hominem and zero attempts to refute anything I've said with some factual data! I see you're quite mad.

stay pleb.

>>6005518

Teach yourself PERL and make Facebook.

Be a Billionaire

>>6005521
There was nothing to refute, Tesla.

What can I get with an Associate's degree in Maths?

>>6005490
>go to site
>read up on biomedical engineering
>looks good, even with just a BS
>planning on getting a PhD

I predict lods of emone!

>>6005532
A chuckle and a pat on the shoulder.

>>6005527
It's just economic & employment data. Yep, nothing biggie. Good luck with your Starbucks or McD application!

>>6005532
a guaranteed job as a Walmart cashier. They always need people who can count the change correctly.

>>6005532

You can tutor high school students for 10-15 dollars an hour. Other than that, not much. Now, if you were to get some programming certificates, that associates degree in Math with amplify those certs.

>>6005544
>again with the implications

You seem terribly upset by what I said. Did I offend your honor, sir?

>>6005532
http://www.ehow.com/info_8440058_careers-requiring-associate-degree-math.html

>>6005557
>http://www.ehow.com/info_8440058_careers-requiring-associate-degree-math.html

>Computer Hardware Engineer

Oh god my sides… they're in fucking orbit by now! HAHAHAHAH

Yeah, BS in math will allow you to be a hardware engineer. Jesus… does anyone even edit that shit site?!

>>6005560
>Some companies, though, will consider you for a computer hardware engineer position if you hold an associate's degree in math,
>...AND job experience or a subsequent certification in a computer sciences-related field.

>>6005564
as a guy who has an EE, I can tell you that pure math degree is worthless do do any kind of compeng. and if you want to do compeng, just get an EE and you'll learn all the math you need. no need to get BS in math first.

>>6005560
>/sci/ in charge of reading

>>6005571

Can I get a degree in computer engineer instead?

>>6005571
Yeah, it was probably a roundabout way to do things.

Would anyone get impressed if you told them you had a Masters in Engineering and a BS in Math?

>>6005574
>Can I get a degree in computer engineer instead?

CE is a lot more impressive than CS, personally.

A degree in CS is basically getting a degree in customer service lol.

>>6005577
>A degree in CS is basically getting a degree in customer service
>lel

triple doubles

ITT: science majors butthurt that not matter how smart they are, they will never make as much as us CS majors

>>6005729
http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report-2013/majors-that-pay-you-back

>CS near bottom of chart

>>6005735
>science majors
>engineers

kek

>>6005739

icy hot burn, bro

I'm going to lay down the law. The reason this flame war started was because someone said CS = math.

CS birthed math. And that's about it.

thread.End();

>implying the formalization of process won't eventually envelope all scientific disciplines

>>6005744

thanks for clearing the air

>CS lecture
>neckbeards everywhere
>more than half of the audience doesn't pay attention
>they are busy using their laptops
>playing video games
>waching anime
>browsing reddit, 9fag or facebook
>annoying neckbeards behind me are talking
>overhear one of them saying "sad frog dot jay peg"

>CS exercises
>consist of literally nothing but executing a given algorithm
>all the neckbeards struggling hard
>guy raises his hand
>"What is the difference between 'exists' and 'for all'?"
>TA cringing internally