/sci/ - Science & Math

>>5965143
it all depends on the starting point.
heroine/morphine and LSD are obviously the most complex structures in the image, but semi-synthesis is relatively efficient. If you can come up with a total synthesis of morphine from industrial feedstock hydrocarbons in 8 steps or fewer you'll be a rich man. As it stands today growing/harvesting opium poppies followed by a little extraction/purification/a couple of reactions is the most economical means of obtaining heroine/morphine and some related compounds.

>>5965147
[cont.]
here's a relatively simple way of getting at (racemic) LSD, as a total synthesis
Saá, Carlos , Dallas Crotts, Gishun Hsu, and K. Peter C. Vollhardt. Synlett 25, no. 51 (1994): 487 - 489.

>>5965152
[cont.]
also, the structure of morphine in OP's image is incorrect, the Cl atom (at N) is flat wrong, it should be N-methyl

>>5965147
I was told about LSD just now.

Why 8 or fewer??


At first I though Heroin or Morphine was the most complicated simply because of their hueg structures. However, I skeptical kicked in because of how simple - in my rudimentary understanding of HS chemistry - all the grapes of elements that made them up are.

lurking this thread

>>5965158
>Why 8 or fewer??
For the particular example of morphine: b/c that's the point at which total synthesis becomes economically competitive (or really superior to) semi-synthesis.

Industrial scale synthesis involves huge costs associated with solvents and their eventual recovery or environmentally responsible disposal, in addition to the cost of the reactants/reagents.
If a plant (not an industrial plant, but a plant growing out of the earth) can do 90% of the work for you at relatively low cost (sowing, water, fertilization, harvesting, transportation), let it.

>>5965167
That makes sense. Kay, thanks for the explanation.

>>5965179
check this out
http://totallysynthetic.com/blog/?p=1268
keep in mind there are probably a couple dozen total syntheses of LSD in the literature; and even more when it comes to the opiate alkaloids

>>5965186
>http://totallysynthetic.com/blog/?p=1268
Thanks again, but all the technical stuff in that reading are just way above my HS chemistry understanding.

Question that kind of fits in this thread

is it theoretically possible to synthesize any known chemical in the lab?

>>5965203
Theoretically?

Yes.

Most of them, however, are a) a total bitch, b) likely to take years of frustrating, finicky fine-tuning, c) hear-tearingly frustrating, and d) expensive and inefficient.

>>5965195
>all the technical stuff in that reading are just way above my HS chemistry understanding.
fair enough
In general, larger molecules and those which have lots of functional groups - and most especially a diversity of functional groups, and/or uncommon or unstable groups - are more difficult/time consuming/expensive to make.

re synthesis: here's a couple of good books for you (practical)
http://libgen.info/view.php?id=399794
(theoretical, but not mathy)
http://libgen.info/view.php?id=105056

re understanding organic chemical reactions: here's another
http://libgen.info/view.php?id=122079
and another
http://libgen.info/view.php?id=933912

also these for intro to organometallic catalysis in organic synthesis:
http://libgen.info/view.php?id=122086
http://libgen.info/view.php?id=893570

>>5965210
>more difficult/time consuming/expensive

Oh gods, yes. I still remember my thesis project of synthesizing shootmenowicene. You might have seen my paper in the Journal of Irreproducible Results? You can find it by googling "An Improved 47-Step Synthesis of Shootmenowicene."

>>5965215
>JIR
always good for a laugh
>Shootmenowicene
too obvious

but seriously
palytoxin, the berevitoxins,
maitotoxin:
http://totallysynthetic.com/blog/?p=610

it can be done, the matter at hand is now 'how efficiently/elegantly'...

>>5965143
Synthethize me!
it's
>(1S,2R,18R,19R,22S,25R,28R,40S)- 48- {[(2S,3R,4S,5S,6R)- 3- {[(2S,4S,5S,6S)- 4- amino- 5- hydroxy- 4,6- dimethyloxan- 2- yl]oxy}- 4,5- dihydroxy- 6- (hydroxymethyl)oxan- 2- yl]oxy}- 22- (carbamoylmethyl)- 5,15- dichloro- 2,18,32,35,37- pentahydroxy- 19- [(2R)- 4- methyl- 2- (methylamino)pentanamido]- 20,23,26,42,44- pentaoxo- 7,13- dioxa- 21,24,27,41,43- pentaazaoctacyclo[26.14.2.23,6.214,17.18,12.129,33.010,25.034,39]pentaconta- 3,5,8(48),9,11,14,16,29(45),30,32,34,36,38,46,49- pentadecaene- 40- carboxylic acid

>>5965261
it's been done
http://www.amazon.com/Classics-Total-Synthesis-II-Strategies/dp/3527306846
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/%28SICI%291521-3773%2819981016%2937:19%3C2700::AID-ANIE2700%3E3.0.CO;2-P/abstract
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/%28SICI%291521-3773%2819990115%2938:1/2%3C240::AID-ANIE240%3E3.0.CO;2-5/abstract

>mfw people learn ochem for drugs

>>5965307
>people getting educations for things they like
How dare they!

>>5965203
Yes, this is a silly question

If you define a living cell as a chemical though, then no, it is not easy, and impossible currently.

>>5965347
Who would define a living cell a a chemical? A living cell is clearly a whole BUNCH of chemicals.

>>5965143
LSD is the most difficult to produce. Synthesis can range from anything; one step from LSA, multi step from ergotamine, or total synthesis from indole building blocks.

The reason I say LSD over the opiates is because of its incredible sensitivity to everything.

Light, oxygen, heat, strong pH will all make short work of it.

Enzymes are some of the most incredible catalysts ever. They can run an otherwise dangerous, mediocre and toxic synthesis (formation of peptide bond) in 90%+ yield at body temp and neutral pH.

If you can get your plant or fungi to make your alkaloid, then whyjerk around doing a synthesis. Nature does it better.

Source: university chemical eng student. Extensive experience with recreational substance synthesis. Edgy as fuck

I say cocaine. Proof? LSD is synthesised, but no one syntesises cocaine. Well, some people do, but synth cocaine is said to be complete shit in comparison to real thing. Growing ergot is also easier than growing coca, at least in Europe and US, so in theory LSD is easier to make.

>>5965862
Coke isn't synthesised because it's available biologically you retard.

>in theory
Oh fuck off dumb kid, try >>>/b/

>>5965143
>>5965360
Yeah, LSD. Clandestine synthesis is very difficult indeed, in addition to the issues you mention the precursors are very tightly controlled, the procedure is long and requires a lot of equipment and chemistry skill, and most of the intermediates are highly toxic. The Feds reckon virtually all LSD in the world is made by just a few hippy gangs, a lot of "acid" is actually DOB and related compounds since those are considerably easier to make.

>>5965862
Total synthesis of cocaine is known, it's just not economically viable (even at the silly prices stepped on shit goes for at the ends of the supply chain) so nobody does it. The shit "synth cocaine" you refer to is various research chemicals that mimic some of the effects but with worse side effects and comedown, not actual cocaine.