/sci/ - Science & Math

AP Calc AB and BC in the US, if students are "Smart".

Sigh, french master race i guess. Although to be honest most of the quadroons here can barely handle differentiation or integration, they just "bring the exponent down and subtract the exponent by one hurr".

If you want to learn anything about set or group or galois theory or topology or anything past "standardized doctrine", you either self study it or you have to wait for univ.

>>5964854
Do they not teach rigor in american maths?
In french high school everything needs to be proven rigorously. I think it helps the mind think analytically.

Maybe you can give examples of past papers of american AP. I'm pretty interested how other countries teach maths.

>>5964860
I was in France for a semester. Your professors are great. Also get really mad at late/sleepy students.
The only thing that I noticed that you guys knew way too well were memorizing those nasty series. The more I think of that it made sense around my senior year, but as a sophmore I had no idea how to approximate the sin of angles close to zero.
Also I went to an American film analysis class. I had seen neither classic (The Searchers and Taxi Driver) and after seeing Taxi Driver I wish I hadn't

>>5964847
American here.

The level of the language in those exams is far above what most colleges require upon entrance.

The subjects seem to delve about a semester farther than what most high school students here learn -- AP Calc, as mentioned above, covers the mechanical calculations done in single variable Calculus.

The material in the French exam looks like it covers about what an undergraduate honors/theory-based multivariable Calculus class would cover. That would be the second semester of college for people the did exceedingly well in AP courses, and 4-5th semester for a majority of the students.

Even then, American classes tend not to cover that kind of language and formality until Real Analysis, which is a 2nd/3rd year college class for most students.

tldr, le sigh. French master race indeed.

>>5964860

Most rigorous proofs they taught in calc BC, the most "advanced" class in US high school, involve only basic tests for series convergence. The courses even tend to skip over neighborhoods and the delta-epsilon definition of limits and convergence, let alone veer into cauchy's stuff.

As for past papers, http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/ap/apcentral/ap13_calc_bc_scoring_guidelines.pdf

That's last year's test with scoring guidelines. They dont really go into analytical proofs because im guessing they dont want to bring back muh complex numbers. In geometry, AKA pleb level 8th grade meth, you learn the whole geometric proofs, where you assume something is false then prove its not. In pre-cal, or tenth grade (unless youre shit tier at math), they teach induction. They never even review axioms or logic, let alone go into sets in depth.

the educational system here really sets the bar low so that all can grad. high school diploma is worth nothing.

Holy shit!

This is substantially more advanced than high school math education in the US.

>>5964874
You went to a french university for a semester? Which one?

In france, ironically, engineering schools teach the most advanced maths, even more advanced than what french university math specialist students learn at master level.

>>5964876
Well, hey, it's not so much a surprise that France nearly equals the US in terms of Field's medals and beats every other country in the world.

It has to do with a very rigorous high school education, that sorts out the dull from the brilliant.

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fields_Medal#Number_of_Fields_Medallists_by_country

>>5964879
INSA - Lyons
You guys were great at hosting us. All of our classes were taught in English. Our physics class had experts in each field as they came up. Also there was only four people in our program soo one of my classes had two people. And that is how I learned Laplace Transforms

>>5964879
Oh so wrong.

>>5964886
Oh I know INSA Lyon, it's the top 'prepa integree' engineering school, and in the top 10 overall.
Very good rep.

>>5964890
In france, engineering has a lot more prestige than in anglo countries, because they built france up from a rural shithole. In fact, in french, engineering is called "génie" which is the same word for 'genius'.

I find it perplexing when many anglos confuse 'engineering' with being a mechanic or electrician or something.

Also, engineering education in france is very theoretical at most colleges, meaning you learn all the pure physics and pure maths that specialists in those fields would.

And yes it's a massive load so only elite students to them.

>>5964847
>>5964876
I hate these problems.

I remember from my Pre calc class that my teacher well give these as extra credit and only 1 guy in the class will do them regularly.

Two different kinds of maths exams from Victoria, Australia:
Methods (mid-tier, majority of students take it):
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Documents/exams/mathematics/2012/2012mmcas2-w.pdf
Specialist (high-tier, much smaller percentage take it):
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Documents/exams/mathematics/2012/2012specmath2-w.pdf

These are last year's exam papers.

>>5964877
I hear that the AP is administered by a private company?

Maybe your government should set up country wide standards for high school and make brackets depending on ability.

One for top students, one for good students, one for average ones and a trade school path for retards.

That's kind of how it works here.

>>5964902

Meh. Theoretical engineering is quite worthless. I took a bunch of advanced math while in college. I haven't used any of it since I started working.

That's probably why France isn't known for engineering.

>>5964847

Wait, on the top it specifically says this is for ÉCOLE POLYTECHNIQUE and that it is for admission into THAT specific school, if my French serves me well.

Calling bullshit that all French students take this when they finish high school.

very nice freshman/highschooler circlejerk thread, OP

just the kind of underage shitposting /sci/ needs

>>5964902
Yeah... I have no idea why none of us know what an engineer is. When I was applying to schools/choosing my major was the first time I was really told what an engineer was. I just wanted to do math and physics. Parents said I love engineering. Only other engineer I know about was the unit from Command and Conquer: Red Alert. It's the weirdest thing ever we don't know this....

>>5964860
There is no rigor whatsoever here. You learn this retarded 2 column proof shit while taking Geometry, but that's it.

>Posting the wrong version of the french highschool math exit exam
>Neglecting to mention differences in scoring expections

In America you're expected to get 100s and shit, whereas in Franceland getting a 50% on the concentration version of the exam places you in god tier.

>TOP LEL

>>5964910
Many top schools use the ecole polytechnique admission test to rank candidates.

It's like in the UK where many other schools use the cambridge STEP maths papers or the cambridge MAT for admission.

>>5964906
"cis(x)". I am in america. The moment I start using this is the moment people start calling me a privi'ed elitist. Enjoy your coober pedy, future petrolmasters

>>5964907
Uhhhh the US government is not exactly well known for their education, especially 'down south. Which is funny because most of my peers expect a high paying job right out of college. As for AP, its alright, but most classes just "teach to the test". I don't think there would be enough students willing to actually take an AP Fourier Analysis or AP Number Theory class in high school, and knowing the US govt and the Department of "education", they'd prolly mess it up anyways. Nice to know society places high value on engineers in the other side of the pond.

>>5964907
You are correct.
In Clapistan (or at least in my HS) you take your High School exit exams in 10th grade which covers arithmatic, basic algebra, and basic geometry. Released Test Questions here:
http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/hs/documents/math08rtq.pdf
The AP Program is completely optional and serves to give you college credit for the appropriate college classes (eg, AP Calculus gets you out of Calculus II, AP Physics gets you out of calculus based mechanics, ect)

>>5964911
Have you looked at the exam papers?

If you can do them, you have the right to be condescending. But they are probably above your capabilities.

Hello!

This seems somewhat unlikely. For example, they use the term "group homomorphism" twice in the exam. The actual problem doesn't really require you to know any group theory, but I doubt they would use this phrase without defining it. It looks like advanced calculus/basic analysis/linear algebra that looks slightly more sophisticated than a first linear algebra course at a top-notch school.

I mean, I guess it is possible (Ecole P. is one of the best math schools in France), but this seems a little excessive.

Best!

>>5964918

Still, OP made it sound like every motherfucker who left a French high school who wanted to get into university took this exam.

Still impressive, I probably can't get a 100 on this. But the misinformation is still there in OP.

>>5964912
People with engineering education in France don't usually become engineers (except at schools that specifically train engineers in specific fields). They often become CEOs of engineering, finance and IT firms or top bureaucrats leading france's national scientific and engineering strategies.

The education simply gives them the right scientific mindset, gives them analytical rigor and for a large part is a selection process to separate the best from the rest.

>>5964902
You fucking said math majors at french unis do less math than guys at grandes ecoles which is fucking incorrect.

I'm in M1 math and I my schedule is uniquely composed of pure math and theoretical CS.

I'm doing 25 hours /week of maths, no physics, no biology.

Category theory
Analysis
Number theory
Abstract algebra
Discrete math (CS)

You guys can claim all the physics you want but if you're thinking you're doing more math than pure math majors..fucking lol

If you want to know what my state Texas expects all kids graduating high school to know.

http://www.tea.state.tx.us/WorkArea/linkit.aspx?LinkIdentifier=id&ItemID=2147499202&libID=2147499199

Note that is the minimum. Advance Class means you have your own class final.

>>5964923

>Hello!
>Best!

Who are you addressing?

>>5964917
I remember asking my roommate if my grades were good. I think I got a 12 in computational mechanics. Maybe higher? I really can't remember. I remember the professor saying I could have taught the class. Also programming on a different keyboard than you are use to at 8 in the morning is terrible.

captcha: reklcoh those
but the s is a long s. Do I write those or thofe?

>>5964877
french "high school" is not the same as high school in the US. this thread is silly, why are we comparing the two?

>>5964927

Hello!

Damn, I've been had.

Worst!

>>5964924
Well in french high school there are different paths, the top 10% of students take the path where at the end you have to take this polytechnique exam. 10% is a lot of students. How many american students take the APs?

>>5964930

Hello!

You're taking a whole course on Category theory? I have seen very few places that offer such things. In fact, the only one that comes to my mind is Part III.

Best!

>>5964923
If you don't believe me, I can give you more examples of university entrance exams from France.

>>5964931

>trying to justify this shit test by saying "minimum"

>>5964922
Nice projecting there. /sci/ isn't a high schooler/freshman general. Fuck off to some loser forum or /b/.

>>5964931
I guess that's a fair minimum if you're talking absolute minimum for basic function as a human being.

>>5964939

Hello!

No need, I'll take your word for it. I've just known French math students who, if that is the base level of math entry knowledge, must have been terrible students. There just seems a discrepancy.

Oh well.

Best!

>>5964929
I'm not sure. Shit this is harder than my Women Studiez final dude. Dam got to go see you in Philosophy HONORS my dude

>>5964938
Minimum is a shit test.

I don't know what you are trying to say.

>>5964940
Yep. The Republicans in Texans refuse to give money to education and also try to lower the minimum test score to graduate so the state doesn't look bad

>>5964936

Fair enough. APs don't even compare to this, it's not even worth going into it.

I assume you're French, what topics is this polytechnique exam covering? I can only recognize some things and some of the words that kind of look like English.

>>5964930
Sorry I was exaggerating. But engineers in france have a very generalist knowledge, all the way to L3 level in maths at least, but I guess not to master level.

>>5964936
I don't have any hard statistics or anything, but I'd say the percentage of students that go the AP route is actually pretty close to that. And rising, actually, as more schools offer it. The year I graduated, we had a class of about 20-30 people in AP Calc, out of maybe a 1000-1500 students at the school.

In our top-tier universities, it's almost expected that you will come in with some AP credit.

>>5964945
The polytechnique maths exams cover as far as I know topics in real analysis, complex numbers, differential calculus, algebra, set and number theory... etc.

Of course there are also physics exams. In fact I'll post those.

>>5964860

One thing I've learned is that in Eurasia, having a great degree can land you a great job anywhere.

In the US, the marketplace is very skills oriented. A plumber or electrician is often valued as much or more than someone with a maths PhD or an engineering degree.

In the US they look for demonstrated skill during hiring process, whereas in many Eurasian countries, education credentials are seen as indicators of great potential on the job.

>>5964949

I want to see those physics exams.

Shit, even post some liberal arts subjects. I want to see how comprehensively France beats the shit out of the United States

>>5964947
There are many reasons that could explain that.
In my knowledge, french students who have gone through the selective rigorous maths path that lead to a generalist engineering school have the best maths abilities.

if the students you know come from other paths, say bachelor of maths at university (say paris sud or piere et marie curie, both top in france) the difference in ability between students can become huge since french universities are unselective at entry (no admission tests).

>>5964946
Thank you.

Only stuff like ENS can really say they do more of a subject but then again it's not an engineering school at all and they're not generalists.

Level expected at the end of high school for a science oriented student:
http://www.mathematiques-web.fr/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/sujet-bac-s-2011-maths-adn.pdf

what OP posted is 2 years AFTER high school. For engineering school.

Here are the links for the physics and computer science exams also necessary for admission for anyone interested:

Physics 2010:
>http://www.sujets-de-concours.net/sujets/x/2010/mp/phys.pdf

Computer science 2010:
>http://www.sujets-de-concours.net/sujets/x/2010/mp/info.pdf

>>5964953
>ecole prepa
>not high school

Are you retarded?

>>5964954
yeah, but after that the opposite happens, a math major will become better. Plain and simple.

Everyone seems to forget that while selectivity counts a great deal as factor of future performance it does not mean they are better at the said subject. prepa trains you to take 1 exam. of course they fair better if you take that exam as ultimate mean of comparison.

>>5964936
Probably 10%, maybe even more. AP calculus is a pretty common course among motivated high school students intent on going to a good college, especially those wishing to pursue engineering.

It's also worth noting that in the US, K-12 is really meant to be a basic, bare minimum education. It's enough to make you a productive worker in a blue collar job, and nothing more. College is where the US education system gets serious and actually tries to churn out intelligent people with a philosophy of "if you can't cut it then fuck you". And while college admissions may not be as brutal in the US as they are in other countries, the graduate admissions process more than makes up for it. If you want to see a hellish admissions test, go look at the MCAT. Tests you on physics, inorganic and organic chemistry, biology, and literature analysis, and only the top 20% of scorers need bother to continue applying to schools.

>>5964847
>high school

reported

>>5964952

Here:>>5964956

>>5964943
if the why is because somebody said we should, it's a poor reason. let's compare the US final exams with the argentinian equivalent, shall we? well, since argentina prunes much more heavily in their public school system, we'll find that the argentinians are far smarter than the US. the US has extremely lax laws because not everyone needs to go into higher education. lets skip this

>>5964962
But college cost a fortune in the US.

How about put alot of that college material in high school (which is free) and those that can do it can go to college for 3 years. Since the supply of students to college decreases, the government can subsidize more easily those that do go.

>>5964951
thank god the us college system is not as cutthroat as japan or china

i would be working at a fast food still

i had to start from the complete bottom at cc but worked my way up: algerbra to cac III

>>5964944
>The Republicans in Texans refuse to give money to education and also try to lower the minimum test score to graduate so the state doesn't look bad
Good news is that a lot of states are starting to band together to form interstate education committees that will hold all the states in their groups accountable to the same standards with the same tests. It should go a long way in eliminating these bullshit graduation exams that ask a high schooler what a triangle is, since in each group there's usually 1 or 2 states that actually gives a fuck about its education system and won't allow the dumbfuck states to drag it down.

>>5964874
>after seeing Taxi Driver I wish I hadn't
why?

>>5964964
>argentinians are smarter
lel get a load of this spic

>>5964973
But increasing standards is racist because black people fall behind.

Higher graduation rates that make blacks look better is a better social outcome than smarter cracker and slanty eyed students.

>>5964877
>tfw I had to be "the best" in math at my school to do Geometry in 8th grade
>tfw no matter what I was stuck in shit-tier math class

>>5964957
80% of french student enter their higher education after the bac you fucking idiot. OP said "uni entrance exam".

most people go into DUT, BTS, post-bac schools (like INSA for ex), or directly into uni.

The criteria being the results of the bac. taht's why i posted this you dipshit. Not everything revolves around prepa.

>>5964981

>>>/pol/

>>5964980
We are comparing ability internationally.

Obviously we don't care about the bottom 80% who suck, we compare top americans (who do AP) with top french (who do prepa).

Deal with it you branleur de fac.

>>5964970
We actually do that. That's what AP and IB is for. If you're a smart, motivated high schooler (and go to a school that offers enough AP classes or an IB program), you can load up on those classes and enter university with a year's worth of credits or more. It's not uncommon for students to enter college and be able to graduate in three years due to the amount of AP credit they came in with.

>>5964986

A lot of universities (implicitly) demand that you take the courses to show a rigorous schedule, and put caps in credit transfers/what classes you can opt out of.

I know a lot of top universities don't even accept AP credit in general.

http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/transfer/transfer_credit.html

>>5964994
Yeah, it's actually not a smart idea to use AP credit for pre-req classes anyway if you plan to continue on to graduate or professional school. A lot of those schools won't recognize high school credits since there isn't a grade attached and it's so far in the past.

Like you said, AP classes are mostly to show course rigor and (hopefully) get a bunch of junk classes out of the way. AP Calc BC is also nice since it saves you a year of math pre-reqs if you're an engineering or science major.

>>5964994
>americans have to waste 4 years and a fortune for undergrad
>european master race undergrad is only 3 years and same level as 4 year murrikan ba and cheap as hell

>>5964997
In California, particularly in the UC system, you can use APs to knock of a fair chunk of general eds. For example, for L&S at Cal, you can use them to satisfy some of their breadth requirements. Which is pretty nice -- it allows you to slip some grad classes into your 3rd and 4th years.

>>5964847
Where did you get this picture OP?

>>5964974
>still be working fast food

Not necessarily. In a nation like India maybe.
But while China has incredibly competitive university entrance mostly as a function of tens of millions trying to compete for tens of thousands of open spots a year. But China still has decent vocational education infrastructure.
Japan has relatively incredibly competitive university entrance but there are enough universities and small enough population that you could still go, although probably not to one of your choice.

>>5965123
Google.

>arguing that prepa is high school
kek

>>5965174
Yes, OP is le faggot.

Aren't those entry exams after 2 years of preparation for them ? Those are hardly end of high school exams.

>>5965000
But Americans finish HS 1 year earlier. In Europe you are 18/19 when you finish HS, in the US I think you are 17/18.

>>5964985
Prepa can't compare with AP, prepa is an additional 2 years that fully focuses on math and physics and shit, AP is just another class during the usual HS time.

>>5965159
>>5965174
>>5965181

Is prepa done in high school with high school teachers in a high school environment or not?
Yes, so it's high school and you just got rekt.

>>5965177
No, europeans finish high school at 17/18.
Start college same age as murrifats.

>>5965191
>high school teachers
lolno
It's post high-school degree, stop being a giant fag.

>>5965194
It's not a degree, just high school preparation for university entrance exam.

Sure it takes an extra 2 years, but most student finish it at 18/19 since they skip easier classes earlier.

>>5964847
>Brazil
http://www.ita.br/vestibular/provas/fisica_2013.pdf

>>5965199
>most student finish it at 18/19
check your statistics fag
Also murrilards skip classes too...

>>5965202
That exam looks rayciss, how are black brazilians supposed to do all dat fisiks and shet.

>>5964921
>http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/hs/documents/math08rtq.pdf
Wow that looks incredibly low level. Maybe GCSE level at most, which you're supposed to finish at age 14 on average.

>>5965206
Sorry I mean at age 16.

>>5965204
I know you're being ironic, but there is actually a lot of people in Brazil thinking this way, and trying to push affirmative action down our throats.

>>5964847
>so many words

Jesus Christ

>>5965214
That look pretty standard.
I suppose they're a bit new to it and might need some explanation of the notation. It's also a national paper (I assume), so some notation might not be standard. You know how baguetteniggers are with their dialects.

UK exam at age 18
http://www.edexcel.com/migrationdocuments/QP%20GCE%20Curriculum%202000/June%202011%20-%20QP/6668_01_que_20110623.pdf

>>5965207
You should finish you gcse when you're 15

>>5964926
>top bureaucrats leading france's national scientific and engineering strategies
>muh fascism
>muh centralian engineers

>>5965191
>No, europeans finish high school at 17/18.
Are you sure about that ? I could have sworn I was 19 when UNI started. Maybe my memory is fuged up.

>>5965301
You probably were born right after the cutoff to start with the younger class and had to start with the older class.

>>5965191
>europeans
europe
one country
one education system
nope

>>5964847
i dont speak faggot

>>5965331
it sounds like you do

>>5965321
>nope
unless it's a baccalaureate

>>5965333
baccalaureates do not govern when people are legally allowed to leave high school

>>5965289
We also have STEP tests for the cool kids http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/stcs/STEP/2002paperIII.pdf

>>5965341
STEP is considered babby tier math in Finland.

>>5965314
No, I checked in Germany and in my country (which is pretty much modeled after the German system) at least it's 18/19 for the regular gymnasium/technical school. For a vocational school it's one year less or one year more, depending on how much training you want.

>>5964921
Wow, that all looks incredibly basic. This is the stuff I'll be doing soon: http://www.edexcel.com/migrationdocuments/QP%20GCE%20Curriculum%202000/January%202011%20-%20QP/6666_01_que_20110126.pdf
I'd say it's nowhere near as advanced as the stuff OP posted, which looks pretty cool.

>>5965361
Let's see what Finland has then

>>5965371
I think he's trolling

>>5965174
Yes they are

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classe_pr%C3%A9paratoire_aux_grandes_%C3%A9coles


Nice try OP, massive faggot spotted, i'm French too and don't see the point of trolling american by denying our shitty system.

Why would frenchies waste 2 years on prepa to go to a grand ecole or w/e if they can just enter uni normally and then go to an ecole for their postgrad ?

>>5965386
How great is it to get into a grandes écoles vs a normal university?

>>5965386
That looks like a very odd system indeed.

>>5965371
after kindergarten we don't have exams, we're expected to publish

>>5965395
it means we get bitches that don't actually smell and do actually shave their pits

Vive la republique!

>>5965395
Small classes, regular oral and written exams, excellent teachers who are evaluated on their teaching (unlike uni teacher who can only get up the ladder by their research).

Does it beat uni with huge amphitheatre classes, half the teachers who don't give a fuck, and a general system which doesn't care at all about students in general?
Hell yeah.

>>5965403
b is over here >>>/b/

>>5965405
sounds like a lot of hand holding to me.

>>5965406
>look, i'm stupid

>>5965411
I love having my hand held.

>>5965411
Why even go to uni if you don't want to be taught?

>>5965415
I prefer independence - relying and thinking for myself.

>>5965420
go for the social scene and exams

>>5965421
le edgy lone wolf

>>5965420
>>5965423
The lectures just have to tell me what I need to read and give me problem sheets and I'm good to go, you don't need hold my hand further than that.

>>5965421
>edgy wanker
protip: there are smart people who can efficiently teach you things.

>>5965433
*two weeks

>>5965421
>muh independence
You have your whole life to learn independence. Engies learn it in school after prepa.
Meanwhile, the 18-21 period is critical to forming your spirit as a mathematician and a scientist, hence why it's a good thing to work as much as possible in that time.

"Independance" in uni undegrad means doing nothing at all the whole year and cram everything two weaks just before the semester exams, only to forget it just after.

>>5965430
That defeats the whole point. You might as well get an online degree.

>>5965432
never met one, so I don't believe you

>>5965430
>a mockery of what learning could be

>>5965436
maybe that's where the future lies and we are the last generation seeking out degrees from offline universites

>>5965442
>universites
*universities

>>5965437
>never met one
That's sad for you I guess.

>>5965442
How about no?

>>5965447
>How about no?
Yes.

>>5965457
Great.

>>5965463
Super!

>>5965485
I didn't get where I am today by going to an online university

>>5964877
Most advanced?

At my school we could take Calc III, Differential Equations, and Linear Algebra and have it count for college credit.

What kind of pleb-tier establishment did you go to? I kind of wish I took advantage of it. My senior year of high school I said fuck working hard and took Statistics instead of Calc III and Differential Equations. Now I have to take that shit my first two semesters at college.

>>5965490
Things change

>>5965293
It's worked well enough. I like that it's really meritocratic.

No bullshit affirmative action like in America or 'extra-curriculars' that rich kids do to make their application look better.

>>5965393
It's hard to get into a top postgraduate program if you don't come from a grand ecole pedigree.

>>5965496
>not recognising a catch phrase

>>5965336
>baccalaureates do not govern
What does that even mean? Do you mean you can't do baccalaureates when you are legally able to leave? Becuase IB is generally for 16-18 y/o's is it not?

>>5965421
The workload is very very high in prepa, imagining majoring in maths, physics at the same time, while minoring in literature/philosophy, computer science and a second language, all at the same time, and within 2 years.

That's why 'independence' is very difficult when pretty much your entire life for 2 years is working non-stop.

>>5964847
>>http://www.sujets-de-concours.net/sujets/x/2010/mp/maths2.pdf

>>5965420
because it's (almost) free.

The French system is very different of US/UK one.
Going to univ after HS is actually really pleb...

Some short formations exist (BTS, DUT), midlle-tier.

And the top is prepa and after the contests the so-called "engineering schools".

You have to wait HS+3/4 for having skilled univ students. Before that, it's just a carryall.

>>5965553
Is BTS and DUT considered better than just doing a license in maths or physics or whatever?

>This is the maths exams french students take when they finish high school
Non. C'est ce que les plus doués de prépa passe une fois la mp terminé, c'est à dire deux ans après le bac.
Le candidat moyen passera plutôt le concours CCP, ou les Mines.

>>5965571
Yes. A license alone is 100% worthless.

>>5965571
Pretty much.
BTS and DUT and IUT and other professional formations teach you a job.
A license prepares you for a master, and then if you don't do a master, well...

>>5965571
yes, because they qualify you for a job.
A license in "math" or "physic" gives you nothing...

>>5965581
>>5965583
>>5965586

The hell? But people do a BTS from a bac pro or bac techno, which are for 'tards.
I mean bac pro and bac technos could never successfully do a license in maths or sciences.

In france only ENS mathematicians and scientists have a chance to do anything good?

>>5965598
what do you prefer :
->having a job for 'tards
->being a smart ass with a master in pysics and math and have no job ?
-_-'
And not all BTS are for bac pro or bac techno.

>>5965579
Stop spoiling the fun faggot, in any case prépa can be considered an extension of 'lycée'.

>>5965598
There are things like professional masters and such.
Also, the DUT is done after a normal baccalaureat.

Sometimes it's better to be a competent tard than a useless not-so-clever guy.
Doing just a license shows you went for the big deal and then you stopped either because you weren't good enough or too lazy.

It's not the end of the world, you can do some exam to get into an administration or something, but yeah it wasn't worth the lost 3 years.
You don't have the knowledge of a engineer or PhD, and you don't have the technical skills of a technician, what good are you?

>>5965622
France has a very strange system compared to the UK.

In the UK people can do a physics or maths undergrad for 3 years and there is no reason why they can't get a good paying job if they went to a good university.

In fact doing a masters in the UK is most of the time useless unless it's for finance or going for a phd (which is a small minority).

>>5965624
>Stop spoiling the fun faggot, in any case prépa can be considered an extension of 'lycée'.
Yeah, maybe. But non-french people don't know about that.

>>5965632
Well plenty of people do a licence and get employed somewhere, but they will rarely ever use what they learned, it will be some office job.

Let's all face it, the French system is fucked. Viva le UK.

>>5965640
Actually, viva England.

>>5965640
Call me when you won't have to share a room with an Injun.

>>5965640
UKfags, the best Frenchfag enemies for centuries now...
"After you, ladies"

>>5965656
Educated indians are great. Better than being mugged by a Maghrebi

>>5965659
Thankfully you can have both in London.

>>5965664
Not many Mahrebis in London. Not many in Cambridge

>>5965664
London is about 98% white anglo saxon

>>5965669
They must all be living it Greater London areas. Like zone 5 and 6.

>>5965674
Most whites live in Brixton and Tower Hamlets

>Britfags vs Frenchfags
Le Cauchy face.

>>5965678
LOL

>>5965682
who is that? putin?

>>5965684
>Write Cauchy
>Anon asks who it it

>>5965686
I'm pretty sure it's a Putin portrait.

>>5965689
Cauchy around 1840. Lithography by Zéphirin Belliard after a painting by Jean Roller.

>that one guy on the pic holding his head who obviously went drinking at night instead of studying
top lel

>>5965341
>mfw I get my STEP results in 5 days.
>mfw I got no sleep and fucked up forgetting that sqrt functions can only be positive

I'm going to have to go to fucking Nottingham ...

>>5965699
>sqrt functions can only be positive
huh?

>>5965699
what were your uni picks and course?

>>5965699
What was your firm?

>>5965702
The question involved taking sqrt(x) = y. You end up with a positive and negative y when solving the equation. I used the positive AND negative y to find x.

>>5965703
>>5965717
Mmath at Warwick.

I go to a school that has lots of "France French" professors teaching courses in English, and what they tell me is that there's a huge gap between teaching quality at French universities and high schools.

To non-frenchfags : how is the Dual education system (ie : you study for a set period of time, then you work for a set period of time, etc. for 2 or 3 years) viewed in your country ?

>>5964847
Do many universities make people take entrance exams? Or do they just have required standardized exams?

>>5965493

This is definitely not the way a large percentage of the country works. This is a high-tier establishment if they are offering you Calc III, Differential Equations, AND Linear Algebra. Fuck, even my local community college doesn't offer DE or Linear Algebra classes that transfer for any meaningful credit (they transfer as the babby version of both, whereas anyone taking the classes needs it as a prereq so they need the level up).

At least in my state, teaching Calc III is the highest I've seen anyone go, and it's only a recent trend affecting the well off schools first, then pleb establishments like mine.

Shit, we didn't have calc III my senior year because only 6 kids wanted to take it out of the 12 that were qualified to do so.

I wish I was in your district.

Please tell me about universities which provide their own student loans. Some list if availible?
Because I'm not citizen or resident of any civilized country I cant take this loan from the goverment.
Is it really possible to get loan or scholarship to cover all contract and living for under-graduate?

>>5965868
Only grands ecoles in france have entrance exams, they are like universities but for higher ability students.

>>5965910
If you're from the EU, and as long as you have the minimum french language ability, french university is completely free (other than living fees).

This is the final maths exam that Irish students take.

http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/2010/LC003ALP100EV.pdf
http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/2010/LC003ALP200EV.pdf

>>5965944
Trivial, compared to OP's paper.

>OP

>>5966010

Still lightyears ahead of that piece of shit Texas put up.

Fuck, even our ACT/SAT, which serves as a tool for admission for top universities like MIT and Harvard use math at an 8th grade level.

I just find it hard to believe that this level of rigor in mathematics is needed for admission to a university. I mean, the stuff isn't THAT hard, but still too hard (I'd imagine) to expect more than a small fraction of the general population to score well.

>>5965944
>http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/2010/LC003ALP100EV.pdf

Again, as with the OP, what's the passing and average score on these exams?

STEP is the hardest uni entrance exam

>>5966058
Oh and the BMAT (mostly due to insane time pressure)

>>5966050
Pass is 40% or above.
Average is probably a C, around 60%-70%.
I think it's a bit unfair on texas though because that was the "higher" exam paper, and even though higher is the default for every subject, for maths most students are too retarded and have to take the "ordinary" paper instead

http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/2010/LC003GLP100EV.pdf
http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/2010/LC003GLP200EV.pdf

>>5964847
Portugal here. I learned to solve almost everything on those exams during my 1st semester in college.

>>5964847
Portugal here. I learned to solve almost everything on those exam during my 1st semester in college.

>>5966078
one more time

>>5966061
9/7.6/12 (fuck essays) reporting in

This basically guaranteed my uni spot

>>5966046
It's la France, they have the highest per capita of elite mathematicians in the world.
Most Fields medalists, all the top financial engineers are french.

Gallic superiority.

>>5966098
I think it's kinda bs that it doesn't matter what uni you go to for med school and that all degrees are equal.

There needs to be more private competition in british medicine.

French mathfag here,

This is NOT the high school final exam.

It's the entrance exam of École Polytechnique which is the most famous (general) engineering school in France. The exam is known to be hard and extremly selective.

You take the exam at the end of 2 years of preparation after the high school (typically when you are ~20 years old). Only few passes it.

There are special classes to prepare that exam called "Maths Sup'" (1st year) and "Maths Spé (2nd") and the amount of work is huge compared to univ.

I repeat this is FAR from behind what we ask to student after high school. It's one of the most difficult math exam in France after 2years of studies.

>>5966108
They aren't equal when it comes to jobs outside of practice. If you want to go into research or higher consulting/specialisations then a better degree from a better uni will help you.

>>5965931
And what about universites with education process in English?
>(other than living fees)
Is it possible to cover these fees with a loan or scolarship?

>>5966125

RIP circlejerk

anyways, do you know the pass rate/median score of accepted kids?

>>5966125
>Only few passes it.
So if you don't pass it you just wasted 2 years of your life instead of going straight into uni?

>>5966143

I assume you'll still be able to pass out of a lot of normal uni classes if you took 2 years to learn advanced mathematics and physics.

learning is never a waste

>>5966143
No, you generally take many exam (of different schools) at the same time.

In any case you pass one of them and go in some engineering school according of your rank.

You can also continue at the univ (join the last year of BSc), some people do BSc(MSc) + Engineering school at the same time.

>>5966176
the label ' Engineering school' is starting to sound like a misnomer.

>>5966184
They are old and different words mean different things in different languages

>>5966135
If you're from the EU, the student loan company (part of british government) will finance all your tuition fees by loan, if you want a british university.

>>5966184
It's the french way, general enginers learn everything from pure maths, applied physics to economics and finance. Of course you can specialize to whatever the hell you want.

>>5966136
For ecole polytechnique, successful admission is around 5%. It's not superhuman though, I have a old friend who got into ecole polytechnique (ranked 33rd in the exam), and while brilliant, was not a real genius, but very studious.

>>5965149

How much math are Chinese students supposed to know going into College?

>>5966225

I would say 8kg depending on the wind speed

>>5966225
Well british universities don't recognize chinese high school exams so I'm not sure.

It's either the same low level as american high school or advanced but no european or american university recognizes it for some reason.

Even if this is the case, not much I can do about it. I was born in the States, pretty unlucky I guess. The focus in the States is applied Calculus and I think it is because the popular consensus of math is number crunching and engineering.

>>5965497

Yeah, fuck the extra-curricular bullshit that students need to do. Why do so many colleges care about this shit? They should only really care about how smart they are and how well they'll do in the college. Extra-curriculars show nothing about your academic potential

>>5964936
High school = lycée

>>5966125
Ok, so much for the Americlaps are dumb circlejerk.

>>5966251
The french 18 year old exams are still way more advanced than murrikan high school.

You'd need at least 5 or 6 APs to equal it in content.

If France has such a grueling math curriculum why don't they kick ass in the IMO? Seems like they're always below average

>>5966207
No i'm from Ukraine. It will join EU only in its wet dreams.
I've found only to great universities such as Garvard's and Prinston's, which provide its own loan and foreigners included. But I doubt I will be enrolled there.
Are there any other universities where studying process goes in English which provide its own loans? Not only in USA.
Its very low life-level here in Ukraine, my family earns less then 2500 $ per year. I can not affort myself to live in the country with greater prices such as Finland, which provides free study. Unless I'll be given scholarship or credit to cover mu life needs.

>>5966248
>extra-curricular bullshit
It's to show that you can balance fun with study and to cull out the autists that do nothing but study, which is less impressive.

>>5966288
>earns less then 2500 $ per year
I spend more than that twice a month. aah london <3...

>>5964847
If this is true, I feel both jealous and humbled. UKfag, STEP is as hard as it gets.
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2042024

>>5966302
he was lying

>>5964877
b-but I took geometry in 10th grade and pre-calc in 11th. So did many of the students at my school. Only a few took geometry in their middle schools.

>>5966304
Thought as much. Guess I'll cancel my flights to France.

>>5966299
I know, but you have greater prices. Some goods are cheap here otherwise we all would be dead already.
So what about loan? I won't be able to show the ambassador 6000 $ on bank account to get visa even.

>>5964935
I lol'd.

>>5966320
Our educational system still remains great, despite this shit troll.

Irish honours level (top 25% of students) senior year maths here:http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/2013/LC003ALP100EV.pdf
http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/2013/LC003ALP200EV.pdf

I have basically no understanding of science/maths but just want to see how my country matches up.

>>5966359
Are you class of 2013?

>>5966398
no

>>5966289
But no one does the extra-curriculars for fun, they do it to pad their stats

>>5966248

>butthurt about not getting into a decent school because he was too lazy to do extracurriculars and academics

You think that STEM degree is getting you a job without doing things outside of academics? If you can't find time to do something as mundane as volunteering while taking babby-tier classes, then what makes you think you can do research and college?

And if you did research and college, then you bought into the notion of extracurriculars and you should stop bitching.

>hurr durr research is different from high school extracurriculars

If colleges made you do something only rich kids can do, like have access to a fuck ton of smart people so you could start research during high school, everyone would bitch about that.

>>5966414

Engineer here. Can confirm I did things like debate to crush future liberal arts plebs due to superior critical thinking skills. Was fun. Half the retards on this board just sit here and argue anyways, might as well do it formally and get medals.

>>5965516
le fucking kill yourself

>>5966359
hum....
that's pretty basic...(no offense)

How old are you when you are an "Irish honours level (top 25% of students) senior year maths " ?
At HS+1, I could do this in 1h for sure.

>>5964847
This is the leavers exam for Scotland.
http://www.sqa.org.uk/pastpapers/papers/papers/2009/AH_Mathematics_all_2009.pdf

The link OP gave isn't really the exam as such more an entrance test like the MAT for Cambridge. It is way harder than normal level or for what is needed to get into university.

>>5966494
>3 hours
More than enough.

>>5966507
It may seem like a lot of time but it ends up not being that much.

>>5966494
>Calculators may be used in this paper
oO
this is really unfair...
A ti-89 (or equivalent calculator) will give you most of the answers...
weird.

>>5964847
>Ecole polytechnique
This is more of a halfway through college exam, most people take two years of post-high school courses to prepare for it.

>>5966359
I did the leaving nearly ten years ago. I see it's been dumbed down, it was already simpler than the A-levels when I did it.

>>5966515
It's just 'normal' calculators allowed and most of the marks are for working.

>>5966568
Knowing the result is always easier that being "blind"...

But if it is only basic calculators (non-formal ones), then OK.

>>5966427
The best debaters are all politics/Law etc students. Engineers etc are terrible debaters

>>5966608
>Engineers
>not master debaters

>>5966608
And do you think it's a good thing ?
That people from marketing win their argument, when they have no idea of what's behind the products conception for instance ?

How good is the University of Paris XI compared to the Grand Ecoles ? One of my teachers did his PhD there.

>>5966678
Pretty much up there with the best from what I can tell, at least for math.

>>5966619
>>5966608

That's true, I never won state. The chick who did my senior year is doing pre-law. I did snag 4th though. Easily over 90% of the activity was filled with future polisci kids.

And no, believe it or not, there are people who enjoy math and science who can actually string together sequences of words in front of a large audience without coming off as autistic. Rhetoric and debate are the closest things English can offer to something that is objective. Saying certain things in a certain way influences certain people almost all the time. Not to mention the critical thinking that's involved when playing the meta-game of argumentation.

Really, it devolves to chess with words. And of course, you need to add on presentation - but there are forms that sacrifice presentation for logic. See: Lincoln-Douglas debate and policy debate.

Sure, after college they might be better because they've been training for 4 years whereas I haven't been keeping my skills sharp.

>>5965289
I know people from the UK doing this, I saw the syllabus, to me it just looks like a shallow look at a bunch of different areas in math with more emphasis on Calculus ( I am an American mathfag in uni ). I don't think it is much better than what I did in high school other than cover a little bit more areas ( all be it very shallow ).

>>5964847
>This is the maths exams french students take when they finish high school (it's in french but understandable since it's maths):
well ummm...french students...take tests in french, so of course its understandable for them

>>5966645
>>5966800

It has very little to do with style and everything to do with substance, unless you are doing some shitty amerilel format. Even APDA (a trainwreck) isn't that style orientated. Debating requires a huge amount of knowledge and excellent logic/critical thinking skills, as well as the ability to concisely and precisely put thoughts and ideas into words (and then say them) in very little time.

I am a scientist debater (and do so at the highest level, going to Euros next week) but we are very much the exception rather than the rule.

>>5966865
If you are doing this exam, it is one of 6 you have to do for Further Maths. Add that to the 6 you do for regular Maths and this makes up 1/12th of the syllabus. So yes it is a bit shallow because lots of other stuff is examined elsewhere.

>>5966893
http://eric.chopin.pagesperso-orange.fr/pbX_en.htm
>the answer to question III.5.c is still unknown .....
oO

>>5966905

There are some shitty amerilel formats, but I gave two in my post that are more content oriented.

But I am interested in your science debate format, what is it called and where can I find out more about it? Our topics normally dealt with domestic/foreign policy or things more philosophically grounded.

>>5966911
I mean I saw the entire Further Math syllabus. I am not referring to just this exam. It isn't that impressive if you ask me. The content is also very shallow ( breadth not depth ).

>>5967011
Better than the US's shitty AP Calculus but it isn't anything I or many I knew couldn't do in high school.

what op posted is definitely not a university freshman entrance exam, its a graduate entrance exam, he trolled you all

>>5967011
it's somewhat impressive for high school, not impressive for college

>>5967011
Check out STEP papers. Toppermost 18 yr old's maths exam in UK

http://www.admissionstestingservice.org/Images/113714-step-specification.zip

>>5965695
you should be ashamed of being so easilly trolled by anon

>>5965207
10th grade is 16.

12th grade OC

MURKA

>>5964860
In america there are two possible situations:
1. You go to a shitty school and the teachers don't give a shit about teaching so proofs aren't heavily invested in
2. You go to a good school but kids are placed in different math courses with most kids having a hard time with algebra. The kids in the most advanced classes are privileged little shits and will whine, bitch, moan, and complain their teacher into submission and proofs are basically ignored.

>>5967047
No 10th grade is 15.
11th grade is 16, and senior year is 17. These are the average ages.

Britfag here. This is one of those optional papers for people who are interested in the subject in year 13 (final high school year).

http://www.physics.ox.ac.uk/olympiad/Downloads/PastPapers/BBPhO_2011_Paper2_section1.pdf

http://www.physics.ox.ac.uk/olympiad/Downloads/PastPapers/BBPhO_2011_Paper2_section2.pdf

This exact paper is the one I took. I got about 65% which I was told was within the top 50 in the country. Most of the rest of my physics class got about 20%. Some of those people went to good universities to study physics. Make of that what you will.

>>5967158
>http://www.physics.ox.ac.uk/olympiad/Downloads/PastPapers/BBPhO_2011_Paper2_section1.pdf

That's about what a US AP Physics class is like.

>>5964917
getting 905+ on an easy paper is a lot easier than getting half a fucking difficult paper right.

Just admit that hte paper teh OP posted is more difficult than American highschool final maths exams.

>>5965728
If you couldn't even get a grade 1 in STEP1 then you don't deserve to study maths at warwick

>>5966058
I sat STEP 2 and 3 and the OP's paper is definitely harder than either.

Stop talking shit.

>>5966061
The only thing hard about the BMAT if your Iq is above ~120 is the essay.

The essay is hte only part that differentiates between the oxbridge candidates and the non-oxbridge candidates.

>>5964847
In Japan, this is what everyone is expected to be able to solve:

http://school.js88.com/sd_article/dai/dai_center_data/pdf/2012sugaku2_q.pdf

and this is what's expected from people who want to go to decent universities:

http://server-test.net/math/php_q.php?name=kyoto&v1=0&v2=2012&v3=1&y1=2012&n1=0_1&y2=2012&n2=2&y3=2012&n3=3&y4=2012&n4=0_4&y5=2012&n5=0_5&y6=0000&n6=0&y7=0000&n7=0

(you can click 解答例はこちら to show the solutions)

>>5966619
I see what you did ther.

>>5967102
/thread

American educational system is shit tier. The actual genius in the USA are self taught with no degree. Schools in the USA are glorified baby sitting centers.

>>5967311

I didn't understand a word of it.

>>5967311
WTF alien shit did I just read. It looks like something out of star wars.

>>5965289

Yeah but that's FP2 which only people doing further maths take. Show em C1 and us britfags will be embarrassed

>>5967434
C1 is embarrassing, yeah. C3 and C4 perhaps people could take a look at though, that's proper A-Level material.

Further Mathematics fag here.

>>5966271
IMO is meaningless crap for autists.
France has the highest number of Field's medalists.

That's what counts.

>>5967311
Can't really pass judgement on it, don't have a clue as to the context, a lot less math notation on it.

>>5967568
Pretty sure US has a higher total of Field Medalists. 12 versus 9.

>>5967583

Some are translated here, though.
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/resources.php?c=87&cid=170&year=2012

>>5967586
and per capia, or land, or universitys, or professors, france is higher

>Field medal circlejek based on nationalism.
10 of the Field's medalists were jews, what's your point?

Final math exam from Finland:
http://abitreenit.yle.fi/files/abitreenit/K%202013%20MATEMATIIKKA_PITK%C3%84.pdf

>>5964847
Ecoute Jean-MPI, essaie pas d'impressionner les étrangers avec des épreuves où 70% des gens ont entre 0 et 10. Aussi, MP*2 FTW

>people always complain about french engies constantly bragging about their school and education
>mfw this thread prove them right

>>5967568
Scoring well at the IMO is a hint towards the versatile mastering of various elementary math subjects, unlike higher research math that demand a deeper commitment.

To put it in a nutshell, not the same things.

>nearly 300 posts in an off-topic thread
/sci/ will always be shit

>>5967863
>off-topic
Did you even finish the questions in the OP before opening yar big mouth?

>>5967037
That is a bit more impressive considering there is a degree of rigor to it. Considering shit-tier US high school system ( no rigor at all ), I consider them fortunate.

Belgium masterrace reporting in. I finished high school in 2003, one year after we were rated first in the PISA comparison of mathematics teaching. Most difficult/abstract thing we saw in high school was rings and cryptography (thanks to our teacher who went off the curicculum).

Now they've reformed high school and 6h/week is the maximum of math you can get, and we've dropped outside the top 10.

France has a very good name for math though, as in university (math major) the best students went there for a year or did their PhD in Paris.

>>5967867
This bratty talk.collegeconfidential.com shit has absolutely nothing to do with science or math you mullethead retard

>>5967887
But this thread is about Maths and Science in other countries

What's the problem?

>>5967887
>lots of different math exams are given
>not math
Ok faglord. I happen to enjoy comparing different countries math problems.

>>5967890
We don't care about that. We only care about actual science and math. Dick measuring threads can go on /b/.

>>5967893
By this retarded reasoning everything belongs on /sci/.

>>5967899
math problems are not math?
News to me.

>>5967916
What math problems are you doing here? Because I don't see any. Is this because you're too much a severely limited inbred moron with postponed neurological development to discuss actual science and math?

>>5967920
>Because I don't see any.
Are you fucking retarded by any chance?

>>5967925
Show them to me.

>>5967899
>We don't care about that.
>We only care about actual science and math.
>We
>WE
"I am the science, kneel down plebeians"


Look at the catalog, dude.
You're in the wrong place.

This thread is by far better than half of the living threads.

>>5967885
Which uni ?

>>5967586
Actually France has 10, and all your field's medalists are stolen europeans so fuck off amerifat scum.

>>5967220

Totally missed the point of my post. You can't just post a random exam and be like

>durrrrr iz hard, look! they so smart

Without knowing the passing score on the exam, it's impossible to judge how difficult it is. And without the average score on the exam of the people taking it, it's impossible to judge how bright the test takers are.

>>5968733
it's a contest, not an exam. Notes are meaningless, the ranking is the only thing which counts.
(My father passed the god-tier math test of ULM (6 hours exam now, maybe it was "only" 4hours when he passed it). He did maybe 10%. Sooo hard. Fuck Fuck Fuck. He wanted to leave before the end, because he feel like a real retard.
He scored 4 (on 20). Ok, logical.
...
Eventually, average was 3.7. One of the baddest average of the history of the contest. Cool_story_dad_once_again.please)

OK for the rest of your post. But it's still amusing to see the differences between countries (the fields of study, the way they ask questions, multiple choice or not,...).
The Japanese one was funny, it was like, Star Trek oO

Forget the "who has the biggest dick" part of it.