/sci/ - Science & Math

>>5899496
Dude, you know, you're supposed to study so that later you have a chance to get a job. So, actually learning programming to do stuff which sells is not nearly as bad as you try to make it seem. Especially when you also like that.

best advice I got when I was thinking about switching majors from engineering to physics/comp sci or physical chemistry was from the engineering teacher who told me you can teach yourself programming exceptionally well alone. You're better off taking science classes with the labs and the professors to answer conceptual questions. I really liked my one compsci class but that was only because I was really good at it compared to other freshman. Sit in an irc dedicated to hacking or a programming language and you'll quickly find out you know very little, and a class every semester won't speed that up.

also, true story. Linux Pr0 was offering 10 dollars an hour tutoring when he had an 86 in the class, so I started having study sessions to spite him. The vocal ones typically spend more time on forums or playing games. It's the quiet ones who actually enjoy coding and/or are good at it.

When I studied computer science in university, students were by and large there for the computer science. Not for game designing or app development.

>>5899496
>Did you ever take a computer science class,

Yes, 7 junior and senior classes and 1 graduate course in a top 10 school.

>and what were the kids like

Idiots, idiots everywhere. Grad students weren't much better either.

I'm thinking about majoring in computer science but I am scared shitless about offshoring. I really am concerned about job security to the point that I plan on double majoring math and computer science or transferring into engineering.

Any advice or information?

>>5899597
if you double major, you'll have alot more versatility but CS majors aren't limited to coding. there's also IT and network administration

I hear about companies not hiring engineers and computer scientists because they can just hire h1b's and pay them less to get the same work done. Then there is offshoring code itself to India or China.

I know that not all engineering can be outsourced but it's still a concern

>>5899599

Yeah I want have more versatility. I feel like I might just end up working in finance to be honest. You can't really offshore financial analysis I think. Not as well as code at least.

>>5899599
>IT and network administration

Everyone with more than 5 years experience in those fields hates their job and wants to kill themselves. Plus there's utterly no need for a degree in order to go into IT/NA

>>5899612
eh, my german buddy loves it anyway

I took one CS class. Intro to C++. It was mostly business majors who were forced to take it. It's not a good example. My post is useless. Thanks for reading!

50% practical, 50% mathy / theoretical stuff.
As far as I know the wannabe game developers left in the first year since the actual computer science was too hard.
That being said I have met some smart wannabe game developers

I have a buddy who did well in one of his computer science classes so he's pursing a minor in information systems. He wants to do game development and he wants to do projects with me but I've heard from many people that game development sucks both academically and outside of academics.

I'm probably going to end up in finance.

>>5899625
>heard from many people that game development sucks both academically and outside of academics.
I hear that.
Every kid on /v/ wants to be a game designer, so dev companies can hide them dirt cheap and overwork them to hell because if they don't like it they can easily be replaced by someone who does

>>5899632

I think a lot of people have misconceptions of what game development actually entails and once they take a class they become disappointed.

I bet if all those kids on /v/ tried programming for one week they would realize that they do not actually want to be game developers.

I love CS theory and am majoring in CS, but I'm worried about future jobs as well.

Would it be a good idea to double major in my other interest, EE, or double major in business or math?

>>5899666
>666

>>5899645
Yeah, my room mate was the epitome of this. He only lasted one semester.

>>5899666

I think you might as well double major EE and Comp Sci but that's just my opinion.

I took some programming and CS classes before I switched to math. Most are code monkeys who just want a job writing whatever small pieces of program they are told to. Not saying that is a bad thing, but that is what I experienced.

>>5899694

That's how I feel to be honest.

I hear being a software engineer is a great career because it's not very stressful and physically demanding but lucrative.

>>5899597
You will never have to worry about outsourcing if you are good at coding. However, if you really are worried, just become an engineer.

>>5899732

>However, if you really are worried, just become an engineer.

Can you give me reasons as to why?

>>5899738
I mean to say, if you don't want to put in tons of extra time and make yourself an asset to the compnay (I just want to do enough software development to get a decent pay check), then you will be fine and make more money in engineering. CS is lucrative for people who are good, and it's not very hard to be really good at it.

I have a few friends who were doing coding, realized it was going to be lame (to them), and became chemical engineers. In general, if you're picking CS for money, there's more lucrative majors.

>>5899743
>CS is lucrative for people who are good
This deserves expansion: CS is lucrative ONLY for people who are good. If you're not good (REALLY good) there are hordes of Indian code monkeys who are just as not-good as you are and they'll work for 0.75/hour.

>>5899738
Programming is not about writing code. Code is an important part, obviously, but the real problem is figuring out what, exactly and explicitly, you want to do.

Barely literate Indians can't do that. They can translate psudo-code into java like machines that run on curry, and they can design shitty GUIs that crash every couple of hours for no apparent reason, but they can't figure out exactly what you want to do.

Only you can. If you have a legitimately difficult CS problem, not just some "I need a shitty GUI app to do something piss easy for my totally non-CS related business", but a legitimate operation that needs real computer science to solve, then by the time you've solved it to the point where you can tell the Indians what do you, you've already finished the project and it would take longer to outsource the final step (writing the code) then it would to do it yourself.

CS isn't as cushy a degree as it used to be. You can't just show up with "I know how to write code" and expect to be paid big money. You actually have to be good at it.

You know, like in science.

>>5899713
>not very stressful
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

There's a word for software engineers in heartburn medicine companies: job security.

>>5899612
It doesn't take five years. IT is hell in a way no other job can ever be.

>implying engineering isn't bunch of kids like "I WAN MAEK TIEM MACHEEN" "I WUN MAEK HADRON COLLIDAH"

>>5899666
>I'm worried about future jobs as well.
Why? Even with the CS job market declining, it's still miles ahead of any other STEM field.

Yes, even /sci/'s precious chemical engineering. Quadruple the job openings at *minimum*.

>>5899496
The beginner classes had a few autistic fucks. Beyond that most of them were normal dudes.

>>5899496
There is a mix of both. In addition, there are a lot of math majors. I have seen that, out of everyone who takes CS courses, those that major in math are the best in the class.

>>5899795

>Buttmad scientist whining over bad career choice.

Enjoy your nojobs.

>>5899496
Let me tell you about the composition every computer science class, everywhere.

>Stereotypically geeky math nerd who get's terribly excited over Euler's Algorithm
>Fedora-laden "omg macs suck" guy
>Engineers who like to talk loudly about the latest theorem they learned in Calculus I (protip: they have no idea what it really means, but like the big words)
>Someone's (halfway attractive) girlfriend who has no idea what they're doing in the class. At all. Her boyfriend walks her through each assignment step-by-step.
>Meta-fedora "install gentoo"-fag
>Fratbro who has no idea what class he's even in
>Horrifically ugly girl who has taken 14 different programming classes but still sucks
>Normalfags and/or business majors looking to poach nerds for their brilliant startup/app idea.
>Neckbeard who can't resist proclaiming esoteric (and completely useless) factoids or opinions.
>8 people in the back row trying to look l33t on their laptops every class
>Three 30-40 year-old guys hitting their mid-life crises and attempting to switch careers
>A small cadre of LAN-ers who think learning Java is basically all you really need to code up Borderlands
>Scrawny guy who wears entirely black and is pretty confident that has cmd.exe skills makes him a total h4ack3R
>4-5 normal fags who only really care and/or talk about building PCs
>this guy

Welcome to your new family.

>>5899816
sounds kinda comfy to me. cuz like, I'm a bit better than those kinds of peeps, so I'll feel good about myself. now just hoping I'm not a fuckup and can learn the material.

>>5899496

> Did anyone care about science and math like in Engineering
U wot m8?

Talk to any Engi student for longer than 5 minutes and you'll figure out that most of them care about one thing only - making money once they're done school. That's it.

COmputer science implies a lot of math really: 4 levels of calculus( excluding pre-calc), linear algebra a couple levels, discrete math, and not math but a couple courses of logic.

Besides that, courses on automata and complexity are harder than you think although fun and interesting.

In my experience my classes brake down something like this:
30% nerds who like computer in general, so CS seemed like the perfect choice. Have no idea what to do with it though.
30% same nerds who actually work hard and have some sort of a plan for a career after school.
30% people who think CS is a ticket to a well paying job, but who don't necessarily enjoy some or any aspects of CS.
10% people who are there for CS. WHo know EXACTLY what and why they're studying and who do extremely well.

Me personally, I am the second type who envies the last type. Go figure.
At least I got bartending to fall onto if nothing else.

>>5899999

check em.

>>5899999
>>5900022
god damn m8

>>5900025
>>5900022
>>5899999
oh sick, I got quints

all the programmers i know, who are worth their shit are self-taught. the most successful guy, in terms of projects, companies and $$$, the guy barely got in into the univ, and dropped out after his second year.

the degree serves only as a safety net - it's hard to tell what the market will be like, your future personal situation. you may not luck out, so you want social validation, you want a paper. but jesus christ, counting on school to teach you anything is setting yourself for a disaster.

a single course is worth like 15-30h of programming. no matter how capable & dedicated the students it won't turn anyone into a programmer. and then you have guys finishing their degrees believing they are into that shit, not knowing how high the bar really is. it ain't pretty.

the best you can do is hack on your own. find a side project, something you truly love, and never stop hacking. then find someone in your area, or maybe net, to jam together. there's no other way. cs classes may serve as a networking ground, but i wouldn't bet much on them.

>>5900006
CS major here. I second this notion, although I'd say that the majority of people across all CS classes are mostly in for the money, and the majority of those would not be good enough to study maths.

Sad but true. CS should be a graduate course for math undergrads.

>>5899816
heh, this is surprisingly true.

>>5900100
>CS should be a graduate course for math undergrads.

No it shouldn't.

>>5900104
>"web designer" detected

>>5899578
>Linux Pr0
I'd just like to interject for moment. What you're refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called Linux, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called Linux distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux!

>>5900100
You do not need math for most CS jobs. Besides most math people hate coding. Most of them do not even take numerical analysis.

Doing shit on paper only = worthless in the real world where people are fired for not producing.

Comp Sci is a specialist math course. Comp Eng is the majority of comp courses.

>>5900115
"CS" jobs are actually CEng jobs.

>>5900115
>Besides most math people hate coding.

No? I talked to enough math people and none of them hated coding. You don't get it, don't you see how the IDEs are progressing? The "coding" of most "enterprise applications" which most CS majors do, will be automated.

Nobody needs a code monkey.

>>5899816
Most accurate description of CS I've ever seen on /sci/.

>>5900113
/g/ copypasta

bump

Judging ANY major by the people in the lower division (freshman / sophomore) classes is stupid. Every major is full of tards at that level.

Most engineers do not *really* care about science & math. They call those people physicists & mathematicians.

I have met exactly 0 good hackers/programmers/developers who learned primarily through school.

This is not to say that the people worth their salt didn't go to school. Almost all of them did. But they typically were far ahead of the class, despite seeking out electives in things they were weak in.

Many of them regretted not majoring in something else (physics, engineering, etc) and just taking electives in CS / CPE / SWE. Backgrounds like that are ultimately more desirable than a pure CS, CPE, or SWE training.

I am a computational physicist. When I was an undergrad I was taking grad level CPE/CS electives in high performance computing. I personally think this is the smart way to go. Have your discipline, & treat programming like a tool to support it (much like you use math in engineering & physics).

I believe that firmly, so let me repeat it: programming & math are both valuable *tools* that you need to master, but they are not your field of study. (This applies only to the majority of people.)

The appeal to CS is supposed to be that it teaches more "formalism". However there is a very good chance your school is so watered down that benefit is lost. Sorry.

Real theoretical computer science is fun, very fun, but in practice this has nothing to do the undergrad program of computer science. If that is what you want to do you should probably major in math and then move to grad school for CS. Honestly, at my school most of the CS grad students don't even do real theoretical work (especially those in a terminal masters program!), and not even differential equations is required for them. (Yes, you can get a "specialized math degree" without knowing how to solve an ODE.)

tl;dr - study programming. don't major in it.

>>5900115
I can confirm on that.
As someone who loved Math and was very good at it I found CS problem solving shallow and bland.

My advice is, if you like thinking,math and solving real problems just study physics, if you are autist or WANNA BE GAIM DEV go for CS but its boring compared to math or physics.

>>5900006
>COmputer science implies a lot of math reall
No, it doesn't. CS implies 2-4 easy semester of calculus, 1 pathetic matrix algebra class, and a bunch of watered down bullshit being called discrete math and probability.

>courses on automata and complexity are harder than you think
Bullshit, undergrad automata and complexity courses are trivial as fuck.

>>5900100
>CS should be a graduate [program] for math [physics, or EE/CpE] undergrads.

100% this.

Do you guys have any recommendations on how to start off programming in community college? I'm willing to learn by myself, but I don't know what classes I should take and what I need to know.

>>5900118
No, "CS" jobs are actually IT/Network Amdin/Code Monkey jobs. CSers don't know shit about hardware or engineering.

>>5900753
>I believe that firmly, so let me repeat it: programming & math are both valuable *tools* that you need to master, but they are not your field of study. (This applies only to the majority of people.)
>The appeal to CS is supposed to be that it teaches more "formalism". However there is a very good chance your school is so watered down that benefit is lost. Sorry.
>Real theoretical computer science is fun, very fun, but in practice this has nothing to do the undergrad program of computer science. If that is what you want to do you should probably major in math and then move to grad school for CS. Honestly, at my school most of the CS grad students don't even do real theoretical work (especially those in a terminal masters program!), and not even differential equations is required for them. (Yes, you can get a "specialized math degree" without knowing how to solve an ODE.)
>tl;dr - study programming. don't major in it.

So much this.

>>5900876
You don't need any classes and CC ones will hurt you by teaching you shit like basic and java instead of actual programing.

>>5899496
People who seemed to care more about having fun that making money. A lot of fa/tg/uys, some normalfags, and a few WTFs. Of these, only a few bright people and a lot of mediocrity. Of the bright people only a few actually worked hard. Overall a friendly bunch, would-play-board-games-with-again/10.

>>5899496
I took a Visual Basic .NET programming class and a computer science class using Java. The kids in the VB class had no idea what they were doing, none of them had any programming experience and just wanted to, as you said before, "BE A GAEM DESIGNAR". The kids in the actual computer science class were much better, many of them had prior programming experience and could actually function on a level required to write code that could do what they wanted it to. Let me remind you, this was in high school, so it was high school level difficulty, and mostly programming rather than actual computer science.

>>5900753

If I majored in math, would I want to study Applied Math or Pure Math if I wanted to do CS in grad school?

>>5900896
>hardware or engineering.
who mentioned hardware? i meant software engineering. a codemonkey is basically a base tier software engineer

>>5901317
Depends what kind of CS Grad work, and how your school divides pure and applied.

Complexity Theory would be pure, for example, but Numerical Analysis is often called applied.

>>5901320
CEng = Computer Engineering which is more or less EE

>>5901326
Perhaps in your country. CEng here = both software and hardware engineering, with software the majority as has most jobs.

>>5901326
>more or less EE
less, perhaps. it's EE and SE and their integration

>>5901325

Well I was planning on double majoring math and computer science if I were to major in computer science.

Why do people who know nothing of the major, and the job market, feel the need to comment? OP, take very little (as always) from this thread as truth. Most of this is bickering from math and science majors who think CS is full of fat nerds.

>>5901367
>CS is full of fat nerds
Nope. CS is full of fat dweebs

>>5901370
Good, you're making my point.

At my highschool we had this great teacher who taught us real computer science that early. If you couldn't do nested structures by the end of the first day you pretty much had to drop. It was great, by grade 12 only 7 people were in the course and they were all serious. In addition, every year was exactly the same stuff so we could fuck around all we wanted. The focus was always on the final project.

I'm actually really interested in CS, but more in terms of theory and research (AI, cryptography, etc) than being a software engineer for some company. I'll be starting a degree this fall. The way I see it I have a few options
-major in CS and take as many advanced electives as possible
-major in CS and minor in EE, taking slightly less advanced CS classes to make room for EE ones
-major in CS and minor in math, taking slightly less advanced CS classes to make room for math ones
-double major in CS/EE, taking almost no advanced electives in either field to meet requirements
-double major in CS/Math, taking almost no advanced electives in either field to meet requirements

Not that I would take advice from anyone on /sci/, to be honest. Just trying to figure out the best way to prepare myself for graduate school (leaning towards CS major/math minor atm)

>>5901397
>I'm actually really interested in CS
>but more in terms of theory and research than being a software engineer for some company
>every option involves majoring in CS

What the fuck are you doing? A undergrad CS degree is next to worthless for graduate CS education. Major or double major in EE/CE/Math.

Also, minors and double majors don't bar you from taking advance courses for fun, there's plenty of room if you don't stick to the bare minimum credit load (12~18). The only real problem you might hit is schedule conflicts.

bump

>>5901426
Schedule conflicts, plus how much of a workload I can actually handle per semester.

I need roughly 10 math courses for a double major (in addition to the general CS math sequence), which I can't start until I finish calc III, linear algebra, and differential equations (so, halfway through sophomore year). Plus 10 or so required CS courses, 6 liberal arts classes, and some basic engineering stuff. Doesn't leave much room for electives.

Also, I know /sci/ says this all the time, but I can't see any reason to NOT major in CS when that's what I want to do in graduate school, besides "it's not hard enough" or "you can learn programming on your own". It's what really interest me, and I don't see any reason to major in EE instead when I'd enjoy myself so much more doing a CS major.

>>5901456
I think the general consensus is that you won't do much of what you think it is enjoy in a CS major. It's a lot of code monkey type courses and you'd be better off doing something else.

>>5901456
If you can take Calc 3 and Linear Algebra at the same time, I recommend it. That, of course, depends on how much time you are willing to put in for studying (make sure to make your other 2-3 classes be gen-eds or something easy, of course).

>>5901464
Well I won't pretend to know that, as I haven't started my degree yet. I hope not though, from what I've heard from upperclassman at my school (via facebook) it's only the first couple of classes that are like that.

>>5901467
Possible, I guess, but not really easy. I don't know what you mean by "gen-eds", but I have to take both a liberal arts class and a basic engineering course first semester, plus I was going to take a chemistry to finish that requirement. Then I was going to take a Data Structures as my last course, to get started with CS. See, my issue is there's really no room on my schedule to do all three of CS, Math, and these other requirements at once.

If undergraduate computer science is code monkey shit then I shouldn't even bother majoring in computer science for undergraduate studies if I want to be a code monkey right? I mean could I get job as a code monkey with a math/EE/CE undergraduate?

>>5901456
>but I can't see any reason to NOT major in CS when that's what I want to do in graduate school

Because
>you don't learn any topic relevant in graduate school
>it's practically daycare for manchildren
>other majors will actually help you when approaching graduate topics

>which I can't start until I finish calc III, linear algebra, and differential equations

Take linear algebra as soon as you get to college [the formal prerequisites don't matter] and take intro to proofs immediately. Then you can start real courses like Abstract Algebra/Analysis/Topology/Logic in you second or third semester.

>>5901479

Go try out the classes.

The reason people say you should major in EE/CE/Math in your undergrad is because you learn more math and other useful knowledge in those that you use in graduate skills. Sci thinks courses taught in undergraduate computer science programs are not very useful etc.

I myself am in a similar position to you.

For me however my university offers a math/computer science double majors, it just means my options get used on math classes.

Take your time with this btw.

>snake oil degree

I took a compilers class once. It was smallish (maybe ~30, whereas most classes had 50+). One of the most difficult/advanced classes I've ever taken. I'm pretty sure everyone there was pretty serious. I was that guy who normally got 100% on all projects on all CS projects when the average was like 60-70%. Not in this class. Project 4 I got ~80%, and the final project I got ~50%, despite busting my ass off. I still got an A in that class, but it was the first time I felt outclassed by other people, and that I was pushed to my limit.

It was by far the most abstract class I ever took, the most difficult-to-understand CS class I ever took, while also having a ton of work (though still not the most work of the CS classes). It was also my favorite class in all of college (coming from a physics double major, where physics was my main focus).

That being said, most of the CS classes were filled with lazy/awkward neckbeards who only cared about getting a job out of college. I think it was mainly that compilers had a reputation of being one of the hardest classes that most of the people in it cared.

Man all these posts makes me not want to major in computer science.

I took a few in high school.

10% did nothing
10% smart, reasonable people
80% spastic about MUH HACKING AND GAME AND LINUX

>>5901464
>>5901559
But that's bullshit. Maybe it's true if you go to a job training "college", but not in any real university.

>>5901580
>any real university

All undergrad cs programs are the same.

>>5899816
>Neckbeard who can't resist proclaiming esoteric (and completely useless) factoids or opinions.
>8 people in the back row trying to look l33t on their laptops every class
>A small cadre of LAN-ers who think learning Java is basically all you really need to code up Borderlands
>Scrawny guy who wears entirely black and is pretty confident that has cmd.exe skills makes him a total h4ack3R
>4-5 normal fags who only really care and/or talk about building PCs

Most annoying of the bunch in CS courses.

>>5901467
Just curious - why would you recommend this? Any would this advice further apply to a Linear Algebra/Differential Equations combined class? (6 credits)

>>5901613
How would you know? Have you been to them all?

>>5901627
>How would you know? Have you been to them all?

I've read through the syllabi/notes of all the big name schools and read from the same textbooks they use. They are more or less all equally pathetic. The only exceptions are a few schools (like MIT) that call a computer engineering program EECS/CSE/CS.

>>5901636
So you found a few universities with defective CS programs and based on that judged that all CS programs are crap? Sounds legit.

>call a computer engineering program EECS/CSE/CS.
And you know why? Because CSE programs are about 80% pure CS. Or at least mine was.

Difficulty of CS varies imo,
You "CAN" take PDE and real analysis, complex analysis and numiercal analysis, etc but you don't have to.
You can supplement your degree with actual math courses, but obviously most don't, they pick the easiest courses and at the end they still get a CS degree and still get a decent job with decent job security.

It must rustle a lot of math/physics jimmies.

I took 4 years of computer science in highschool, regular ap 2ap and independent study. I wanted to be a hacker. The other 2 kids that where there one wanted to actually study computer science and the other wanted to be a video game maker but then the last year wanted to do something with drones in the army.

>>5901573
what are you having trouble with? most of these posts are shit

You only see idiots in your "introduction to C++" classes as knowledgeable people don't need such class.

>>5901697
>introduction to C++

Most CS programs don't even try to teach programming and use Java/Basic instead

>>5901697

But you need to take these classes don't you

I want to take programming courses at a community college. Most are filled up, but Python is available as an online course. Should I take it?

>>5901726

Or should I wait for C++ and Java. EE for transfer needs Java.

bump

>>5901729
Python is such a basic language, a good place to start if this is your first time but if you understand the basic concepts go with java or c#, in my reccommendation.

>>5901718
Don't know how it is in the USA. When I went to university in 1995 we had a test in the beginning and those who passed could skip the introduction subjects.

>>5901729

Just wait for c++

Learn python out of uni so you can learn the concepts easily.

>>5901726
>>5901729

If it's not required, don't take it in the university/college. Just learn it on your own.

>>5901729
>EE for transfer needs Java
all my wtf?

>>5899496
I started programming on an indy mmo called GraalOnline when I was 14.
I never took a CS class in highschool.
I'm finishing my CS degree this semester.
I started wanting to go into game dev, but I'm having second thoughts.
I still want to do something in Computer Science.

have you ever thought about Computer Engineering?

>>5901798
Already did, data structures, electronics, some maths, binary, bit of law and low level languages. Shame the coursework was php though. Bretty good would take again.

>>5901650
Other than numerical analysis those other math subjects are completely worthless to a CS students.

I majored in mechanical and did take PDE/complex and have never once in ten years used that crap.

>>5901426
I don't see why double majoring in CS and Math isn't the perfect choice for him

bump

>>5901798
OP here, and yes, I have in fact thought about doing and I think that is what I may want to do. This is my first reply to the thread beside all of the bumps.

Electrician : Electrical Engineer
Mechanic : Mechanical Engineer
Plumber : Chemical Engineer
Financier : Economist
Potter : Material Scientist/Ceramic Engineer
Computer Scientist : Computer Engineer
Software Engineer : Senior Software Engineer

bump

I had a guy in my science class say he wanted to be a director. Just saying.

I had a guy in my computer science class say he wanted to be a director. Just saying.

I had a guy in my computer science class say he wanted to be a gay porn director. Just saying.

>>5903519
bumpetey bump

I wish I Could be a programmer but I have arthritis in both my hands From long PC usage so I now use a tablet to write to my PC rather than type. Suit sucks.

>>5899496
I always hear about that. Even in community college, there was like maybe one hipster with his macbook who looked like he was one of those looking to make the next Angry Birds, but just looked the part, he wasn't anal about it nor did he even mention games or mobile apps. Programming takes some dedication to master anyways, so besides the little games people did for practice, I've never actually seen the type.

Unfortunately, people eventually learn that making games isn't half as fun as simply playing them.

Fun fact though, every asian I've met who programs played SOME sort of alchemy/crafting game. Guaranteed. Usually Monster Hunter.

>>5899597
>I am scared shitless about offshoring.
Don't be. This isn't the 80s, despite the hipsters bringing it back. Too many projects are dependent on fast debugging and building on past work, and there's no time for fixing up code from India.

I personally encourage engineering, as well. If you can problem solve, you can code.

>>5899816
>Normalfags and/or business majors looking to poach nerds for their brilliant startup/app idea.

You got me. No apps, though, just simple contract work

#undef true
#undef false
#define true 0
#define false 1

Have fun with it!

>>5899496
I felt most of the way up my CS degree that I was the only one enjoying the "real" computer science. I knew a criminally lazy vidya game maker who didn't know shit (couldn't write simple programs without an IDE, sucked at math, argued against other people learning algorithms, was scum...), but I was the only one who couldn't stand him.

CS is filled with the shit you're talking about OP, but there are always a few mathy people in every lot.

>>5901626
if you're still reading:
a bunch of the material overlaps, and most of calc3 is not super complicated.

I've never taken DE, but my roommate said it was hard. He never attended class though. Just work hard.

>>5903908
a lot of people are like this, but this is in every major. they weed themselves out usually by the end.

that being said, the pure amount of shitty CS majors just gives good people in the major that much more in terms of job opportunities. there's no lie here, CS majors are not here for the academics. they would be in Math or some other related field. so, just be good at CS and get a good job. if you are very smart, CS is probably not for you. try out CE

>>5903904
put it in a random header and include it when #ifdef DEBUGGING

>>5903908
>without an IDE
You have to admit that would be a lot nicer and cut out a lot of the uneeded work. Also, most companies use them.

>>5903888

>I personally encourage engineering, as well. If you can problem solve, you can code.

Sorry I am ESL, do you mean that I should study engineering rather then computer science because you implied that if someone can problem solve then they can code also?

>>5903920
H-he followed me for three years before I got away from him. He was a spoiled rich motherfucker who never worked a day in his life, and he could apparently just waste an infinite amount of his father's money sticking with CS.

>>5903923
I have nothing against IDEs. I do just fine in vim, but to each their own. IDEs seem to hide information from the user, though. And when you're knowledge of a language is so bad that when given a simple editor and told: "write quicksort in Java... write Fizzbuzz in C++... write Hello World in C... No? How about python?" and you can't manage it, it's time to quit and start applying yourself.

If you are absolutely sure you want to go to grad school to do research but you want to study computer science at the undergraduate level then do a double major of mathematics and computer science.

Me personally I don't know what the fuck I want to do, I need to spend even more time on it but I would like to have a lot of options. I think studying engineering would allow me to be able to get a well paying career with only an undergraduate degree but it would allow me to do work in software too (if I self study it) and I think it would also allow me to go to grad school for computer science or financial engineering.

Is there anything wrong with my perception of what I can do with engineering?

>>5903928
absolutely

CS programs are typically filled with engineering dropouts

>>5903931
heh I know the type. the rich motherfucker fucked off to Columbia though, maybe he'll stop being a bitch there, and know that his father's teet will only get him so far

>>5903931
>>5903941

Did you guys ever use rich people?

>>5903944
no, my town is full of rich fucks though. i love it when i meet people who are low income ask me this question. when i went to university i found this asked a lot.

rich people like to show off. this particular rich fuck bought me an xbox 360, just on a whim.

>>5903931
I used both in my class, I just like using IDE's more. I hated Vim.

>>5903964
Note: Used the IDE along with Emacs, mostly for convenience sake for any debugging I needed to do ( fulfilled my purposes ).

Should also preface to say I am a Math major not a CS major, so programming wasn't my main gig.

>>5903947

>i love it when i meet people who are low income ask me this question.

Why lol

I had a friend in high school who used to buy me shit all the time. Looking back on it I feel fucking terrible about it. I am such a parasite man. I am a low income guy so it was either play videogames and don't complain or get a job on the side of school so I can have money to go to movies, internet cafes etc.

One time I was in deep introspection and I asked myself and him if I was just using him for his money.

Fuck my life

>>5904063
it tells me they're low income and that they don't know the riches i've seen.

i'm low income too, but my parents suffered through debt so i could go to one of the best school systems in the country. thankfully, CS has pulled me out of the low income bracket.

i felt like a giant dickhole when he bought me the xbox and I stopped talking to him about a year after that. i also had introspection like that and realized that he wasn't a friend and i was wasting his time, money, and my time. i know the feel, /sci/bro.

>>5899496
I'm going into my 3rd year of undergrad CS. Personally I'm often torn up over the choice of whether to drop out, because honestly you don't learn shit from a professor lecturing on the syntax of a language, you learn how to program by programming. The way it works is you listen to a lecture, go "huh that makes no fucking sense" and figure it out when you code the lab. It's inefficient.

At my school CS tries to strike some balance between practicality and theory, where the first 2 years lot of time is spent on mechanics of programming, but after that it gets more interesting. Kids work hard (they're often joked about for being masochists). That said if you are interested in CS in the more formal sense, you might be disappointed many are driven by an interest in software development rather than math. You're not going to hear most students raving about calculus. But you will find them raving about Haskell.

In higher level courses (ones I haven't taken yet) my guess is people will become more interested in math and theory as they're increasingly exposed to it. Up until taking a discrete math course I hated math (calculus felt like rote memorization to me) but now I'm excited for more. Next semester there's cs theory along with probability, maybe graph theory as an elective if I can make room for it.

So no people are not like I WANT TO BE GAEM DESIGNAR, though you will find many of those students in the Game Design major at my school (my god are some of them ignorant of the field they're going into). But DO look into your specific school and what makes it unique. At some local colleges I looked at CS was more like IT, incorporating networking hardware and so on. To me that seems terrible and an entirely different scenario.

>>5903920
>they would be in Math or some other related field

Please tell us what math has to do with making commercial software?

So if I had had the idea for Instagram/Tumblr a math major is going to code up a professional program I can show to investors? I think not.

Also Sony Online has stuff here in San Diego. They never touch hardware, only lots of C++ and some Java. CS is the perfect major for the job not CompE.

CS here
CS is shit
don't take it, take a math or engineering degree, trust me. I'm a CS major

>>5904171
since you seem to not be trolling, the scalability of those systems and making them fast as hell is where math comes in. your codemonkey can't optimize code nor can he figure out algorithms that allow these systems to be massive. if you think making instagram is child's play then you have no understanding of CS and how it works.

and pretty much my school's entire department for CS (it's a large research university) were all Math/EE/CE/Physics majors for undergrad. a select few were CS majors, and I'm not sure how good they are.

>>5904177
All the math you need for CS is taught in CS courses. So stop your bull shit.

>>5904181
when did I ever say it wasn't? and i'm sure the people writing google's search engine algorithms and building their distributed systems didn't do just a BS in CS, so i'd say you don't know shit

>>5904185

I'm doing cs and we got some of google's former top brains giving full semester courses about algorithms for human and foreign machine interactions, so they seem to think undergrad CS is worth investing time into.

>>5904193
undergrad CS is worth investing time into, if you're going to be doing grad level CS you will need to know a lot of the math that undergrad CS didn't teach you (maybe not need it, but it will be incredibly helpful to know about the subjects).

Just popping in with my thoughts...

For practical matters-
If you graduate in CS and you need math for some algorithm or scaling problem, you learn the math. The converse is equally true, a math major will have to learn cs material to succeed programming. It doesn't make a lot of sense to say people should go toward one or the other on the grounds that one will be more qualified. You learn it either way, so a better way to make the decision is to do what you enjoy. If you enjoy it you will learn more.

Going into grad school or academia-
Yeah probably a better idea to do a math major.

>>5904199
>know a lot of the math that undergrad CS didn't teach you

Like what?

I don't see why a computer science major shouldn't double major math and why a math major shouldn't double major computer unless of course they are already double majored with something else or they are not interested in working with software.

You can use the math taught to do some type of analysis programming or data science which seem pretty lucrative at the moment.

>>5904174

An engineering degree done by someone who self studies programming seems like the crème de la crème for job opportunities and grad school opportunities. Maybe engineering + mathematics double major is even better.

What do you guys think?

What do you guys think?

>>5904199

seriously though, as far as I can tell at the moment, the math is trivial. it's all abstractions of elementary algebra you learn in high school. whether you have topologies, matrices and/or graphs, it can always be decomposed back into that, and for optimization most algorithms can be reduced into algebraic form to isolate redundancies and spot parallelisation potential. I agree, it takes some mental flexibilities and I see a lot of my friends struggling with that aspect of CS, but once you reach a certain a-ha moment (if you do) everything just suddenly makes sense and is super easy and every benchmark is way too lax.

but that might just be the inexperienced inebriated undergrad talking.

>>5904211

what about someone who gets a CS degree and does engineering projects on the side?

>>5904202
hmm, most upper level stats classes, (this is for data mining and stuff), further logic classes (not just intro to logic AKA discrete math), some finance classes, and analysis classes are always helpful for improving your problem solving abilities

>>5904212
it is relatively trivial, you don't need to do most math for pretty much all jobs, there's a bunch of niche jobs that require a high amount of math and that's about it. having higher level math is always good, regardless of major. it helps you think and problem solve much more intelligently

>>5904218

do you know any good math "sun tzu"/toolkit style books?

a book that gives hints and would for example, teach calculus in a single sentence like:

>The inverse function of the function that delivers the function that delivers the slope of a function at x delivers the area between the function and the axis.
period.

and vector calculus like:

>This can be extended to any dimension.
period.

etc.?

>>5904211
A degree in any subject teaches you all you need to know for a job in that area. Again another faggot with the math. Outside of selected topics from PDE/complex variables pure math courses are worthless to 99% of engineers.

>>5899816

this is so accurate it's frightening

>>5904222
no clue, im a lowly undergrad that wishes he did more math. if i knew i would help you

>>5899816

haven't seen any fedoras

I do occasionally wear a cowboy hat and a flannel shirt tho

>>5904211
Maybe a Physics major. Many math classes will be worthless to an engineering student aside from PDE and Complex Analysis and maybe a few others.

bump

>>5904261
There was this one guy in my intro to CS class that wore a cowboy hat, a fox tail, flannels, had a neckbeard and never bathed. Luckily, he dropped the major after his second semester.

>>5904181
>All the math you need for CS is taught in CS courses
>implying CS discrete math even counts as math

gtfo

>>5904213
I wouldn't hire them

>>5904860
Another fucking idiot. Upper division CS courses cover all the math required for the course. There is no need to take pure math unless it is an elective.

>>5905000
>Upper division CS courses
Are all pathetic. You don't need any math knowledge other than "a graph is G=(V,E)".

To do real work, you're going to need math.

You sound like my chem professor that hated engineers, OP.

>>5905000
why do you keep posting, if you don't feel like reading the entire conversation. you need more math than what's supplied in the undergrad CS curriculum for a CS grad program. please get your head out of the sand

>>5899795
>implying engineering isn't a bunch of "based alpha bros" who just want to make money

>>5899496
Since what age you liked C++ commands and macros?

>>5904886
And your company would fail unless you had a way of attracting the top 1% talent in the country that could meet your ridiculous standards.

>>5905143
>that could meet your ridiculous standards

>requiring ENGINEERS to an ABET accredited degree
>ridiculous standards

Right...

You know it's illegal to even call yourself an Engineer if you don't have a PE license.

>>5905143
>that could meet your ridiculous standards

>requiring ENGINEERS to have an ABET accredited degree
>ridiculous standards

Right...

You know it's illegal to even call yourself an Engineer if you don't have a PE license.

I want to make video games. I understand how they work, and can design their infrastructure. I understand game theory and what makes them fun as well.

However, i'm an artist. I design characters, places, themes and other elements. I know how to program, but I prefer to express myself and my ideas visually. People call me an idea guy even though I can design a game's entire library of visual assets, level design, and mechanics.

>>5900006

This is why I hate engineers the most. As an engineer, I can safely say that my school holds the most insufferable faggots in the entire university. I mean look at me, and I represent only one of the stereotypes.

>>5905135
OP here, second post. I taught myself C++ in October 2012. I will be a Junior in high school in august..

>>5906197
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