/sci/ - Science & Math

wow that sounds pretty cool i'll have to try that out sometime

Right, because fucking with you brain's chemistry whichs makes you see pretty lights while you stumble around fighting vertigo will really bring you closer with the divine 'unknown'!

Take your bullshit and get the fuck out of /sci/, you moron. You and other imbeciles like you are the cancer killing this board.

>>5859735
DMT is not alcohol, friend.

>>5859739
It's still an opiate. And any experience you have while on it is the result of chemical imbalances in the brain. Misrepresenting it as anything else is just pseudo-religious masturbation.

>>5859735
god thing your don't need drugs, sex, or religion to feel euphoria.

Hows enlightenment treating you?

>>5859746
>DMT
>opiate
I seriously hope your are trolling

>>5859746
And when you love a girl, it's just chemistry, right? Who cares. It's much more interesting to talk about how it feels than explaining why it works.

>>5859751
their is no such thing as love retard
just as their is no such thing as God

Go overdose faggot

>>5859749
I meant to write hallucinogen, the word 'opiate' popped out 'cause I was reading >>5859739 at the same time.

Anyway, my point is that tripping is just playing with your brain's neurochemistry, there's nothing shamanistic about it. And the faggots who insist there is are just stoners with fried brains who've done too many drugs over the years.

>>5859756
You anger directed at me simply reflects your anger directed at the world. Take two deep breaths and relax.

>>5859759
>my point
And my point is that you got it wrong.

>>5859704
Shit's just fucking with your brain m8. You're not connecting with some higher truths or any shit like that.

>>5859764
You're a god, I'm a god. It's funny how two gods argue about the illusion they themselves put forth

>>5859759
yea sure you did

I not the one who thinks all drugs are opiates

How retarded are you?

no wonder you bought into the whole
anti-drug propaganda

>>5859765
Please, go ahead and cite peer-reviewed material that explains how DMT links one's consciousness to a 'higher' realm, ie. one which is undiscernible to our regular senses or scientific instrumentation. Go ahead, I'll wait.

>>5859766
The fact that you're focusing on this minor mistake kind of shows that you have no counter argument.

Any "magical" experience you have while on drugs is just because they temporarily fuck your brain up to a hilarious degree.

>>5859760
>>5859767
SHUT THE FUCK UP

all drug users and religious people need to be gassed like the jews were

>>5859773
Does it really matter how real it is? If it feels real, and doesn't do any serious harm, why shouldn't people try that experience.

>>5859773
You need to really turn your way of thinking around if you're going to try and understand this.

The DMT experience is beyond words. Words do not exist to describe it. Concepts do not exist which encompass it.

>>5859766

The fuck are you talking about? I'm not buying into anything, you retard, I just think idiots who trip and then talk about religion and the unknown divine are faggots possessing little common sense and even less intellect.

But go ahead, keep tripping buddy, see how your brain feels after a decade or so of non-stop neurochemical buttfuckery.

Fucking hippies, you people really are the scum of the Earth.

>>5859775
> no counter argument.

Like you had any argument to begin with.

You should try researching the differences between drugs and then form your opinion

>>5859779
Right. In other words, you can't.

Look, it's I'm not saying it's not fun, but for fuck's sake, why do you people insist on making trips something they're not? All they do is scramble your brain for a short period of time, there's nothing special about that. It's all chemistry and biology, nothing more, nothing less. That's all there is to it.

>>5859779
Yes

Because your brain is in an entirely irrational state while under its influence.

>>5859781
Not that guy but I'm not saying that no-one should do it. Just that people shouldn't go around blathering on about how they've reached some sort of higher plane of existence just because they took in some chemicals which messed with their brain.

>>5859780
agreed 100%

all these kike enablers need to be gassed

Soon drug users will meet their end on the day of the rope

HEIL HITLER

>>5859786
Love is chemistry and biology as well, but look how profound the experience can be. Don't confuse descriptions for reality. One is a concept, the other is not.

>>5859787
You are used to rationality. The truth is rationality is only a small band of the spectrum you are able to perceive as a human being. The fact that you are stuck in the rationale is exactly why you're defending it.

>>5859786
>>5859787
>>5859789
euphoric

>>5859776
>>5859790
/pol/ pls go

I think they're being dumb as well but pls

>>5859791
Come back when profoundness is a quantifiable concept

You're just spouting buzzwords

>>5859796
I'm not here to persuade you. I'm simply enjoying chatting with my fellow god-heads.

>>5859795
>MUH EUPHORIA
Is this the stock response to any kind of scepticism now?

Don't get me wrong dudebro, drugs are fun as hell and everything but they're just chemicals that mess up your brain for fuck's sake.

>>5859796
Druggies gonna drug.

>>5859783
I'm not the guy that made the mistake, I know that opiates and psychedelics are different things.

What now shitIord?

>>5859804
I'm the guy who wrote opiates instead of hallucinogens. The dude has no argument which is why he keeps fixated on my lapsus linguae instead of actually coming up with anything factual.

There's a whole bunch of entities waiting on the other side, saying "How wonderful that you're here! You come so rarely! We're so delighted to see you!"
They're like jewelled self-dribbling basketballs and there are many of them and they come pounding toward you and they will stop in front of you and vibrate, but then they do a very disconcerting thing, which is they jump into your body and then they jump back out again and the whole thing is going on in a high-speed mode where you're being presented with thousands of details per second and you can't get a hold on [them ...] and these things are saying "Don't give in to astonishment", which is exactly what you want to do. You want to go nuts with how crazy this is, and they say "Don't do that. Pay attention to what we're doing".
What they're doing is making objects with their voices, singing structures into existence. They offer things to you, saying "Look at this! Look at this!" and as your attention goes towards these objects you realise that what you're being shown is impossible. It's not simply intricate, beautiful and hard to manufacture, it's impossible to make these things. The nearest analogy would be the Fabergé eggs, but these things are like the toys that are scattered around the nursery inside a U.F.O., celestial toys, and the toys themselves appear to be somehow alive and can sing other objects into existence, so what's happening is this proliferation of elf gifts, which are moving around singing, and they are saying "Do what we are doing" and they are very insistent, and they say "Do it! Do it! Do it!" and you feel like a bubble inside your body beginning to move up toward your mouth, and when it comes out it isn't sound, it's vision. You discover that you can pump "stuff" out of your mouth by singing, and they're urging you to do this. They say "That's it! That's it! Keep doing it!".

>>5859810
As I said, druggies gonna drug.

Well, If I can add something of my own, I don't think the only time I took magic mushrooms connected me to anything spiritual, but it sure as hell made me think in a very different way. And I did review my life and made changes because of the realizations that I made. People think the ideas or feelings they have come from the spiritual world, while they come from using your brain differently. Your brain is the real beautiful thing over here offering all theses ideas and feelings to you, not the spiritual world

ITT: Virgins afraid of trying drugs, and unaware of the positive effects of psychs. If you've never taken at least good dose of LSD/shrooms just stfu because you don't know jack shit about what your talking about.

You will never feel the blissfulness of having all or some of your senses combined into one.

You will never 'feel' your music coarse through-out your body

You will never have 10 trains of thought flowing at the same time

Depending on how you utilize your trips you can have massive realizations during, it's like your taking on a whole new mentality

>>5859817
How were you changed? I'm not trolling, I'm genuinely interested.

'cha: Kyngdomes faxRun

>>5859820
Take advice from someone who doesn't know the difference between you're and your? No thanks, I think I'll stick with the scientific method. But feel free to wreck that precise neurocircuitry within your head - after all, it's your brain, you can abuse it in any way you like.

>>5859820
I have tried drugs and it's cool and everything but I'm not retarded enough to think that it's anything more than chemical fuckery going on in my brain.

Where does that leave you now?

>>5859837
Not him, but it tells me that the spirit never let you through. If it would, you would be singing a different tune right now.

Drugs don't make for a fun game; love and social status and self-enlightenment and scholarship and parenthood and physical fitness and skill and altruism are all complex, human challenges. I don't want to risk losing that by becoming a stoner for whom the highest good can be bought for €20/day at the coffee shop around the block from here.

To misquote Dawkins: Can you not see a garden is beautiful, without having to hallucinate fairies at the bottom of it?

Don't worry, I'll venture into that self-absorbing masturbatory abyss one day. When I've got nothing better to do.

>>5859820
>You will never feel the blissfulness of having all or some of your senses combined into one.
My senses work just fine the way they are.

>You will never 'feel' your music coarse through-out your body
I don't produce music. And I doubt you do, either.

>You will never have 10 trains of thought flowing at the same time
I always have multiple trains of thought flowing through my head. I'm an INTJ, it comes with the territory.

>Depending on how you utilize your trips you can have massive realizations during...
When I want to have 'massive realizations', I sit down in a quiet room and proceed to study.


I swear to god, you druggies are hilarious, always spouting the same inane nonsense about spiritual apotheosis and hidden knowledge. Drugs are fun. That's all they are. Fun. If you want tangible rewards, you need to pick up a book. No pain, no gain. Nothing comes easy, or on its own.

>>5859830
Autist detected, its ok bud you'd probably trip out hard from weed so you should probably stay away from drugs since its obvious you wouldn't be able to handle them anyway.

>>5859837

That chemical fuckery is precisely what allows you to experience combined senses and new perspectives, if you've never had either then you haven't tried the right drugs.

>>5859839
Yeah exactly, I'm not a moron.

>>5859844
Psychedelics are not drugs in any conventional sense of the word. They are not fun, they are not addictive, and they don't harm your body. They simply show you who you are. And the truth of the matter is that you are god. You are a divine power. You just forgot about it. You need to remind yourself of it once in a while.

But don't take my word for it. Trust that the culture that brought you up is right about its naive assumptions. This is a far more serious game and one that you play willingly.

>>5859852
How quick you are to judge, how easy to dismiss. Your own ignorance is the mud you are swimming through.

>>5859848

You are clearly ignorant on the subject, why bother replying?

>>5859848
A full blown DMT experience cannot be fun. Fun means you're enjoying it. If you enjoy DMT then you took too little.

>>5859851
Look m8, the stuff you're saying about "the right drugs" is devoid of any actual meaning. You're just saying random words like "new perspectives" and "combined senses" without actually talking about what they mean.

>>5859853
What makes you so sure that the stuff you feel when your brain is whacked out on chemicals is some sort of fundamental truth?

>>5859853
Aha. And what divine powers have you unlocked via these drug-addled journeys into the depths of your psyche? Aside from the realization that we're all 'connected'. Seriously, that doesn't count for shit. Please explain what tangible benefit you've had from your recreational use of hallucinogens.

>>5859864
>What makes you so sure that the stuff you feel when your brain is whacked out on chemicals is some sort of fundamental truth?
Because it feels more real and more powerful than the reality I am currently experiencing.

>>5859868
All I have discovered is how much of a fool I was.

>>5859869
>Because it feels more real and more powerful than the reality I am currently experiencing.
In some of my dreams I feel more powerful and real but that doesn't mean I'm going to meet any talking burritos any time soon.

>>5859864

New perspectives = New outlook on life?
Combined senses = as in you feel your senses merge together (I.e. you hear something but feel it physically)

its not that difficult to understand what I meant and not like explaining my personal qualia would do jack shit for helping you understand

like I said you're going to be ignorant of what I have to say if you've never taken psychedelics

But the new perspectives and combined senses, anyone who has experimented with psychs knows exactly what I mean. and if done at a good point in life opens up new doors to understanding who you really are.

Basically LSD and Shrooms aren't addictive and if you've never tried them you either don't know how amazing the experience is OR a massive pussy who is missing out on a huge experience in life

>>5859869
>Because it feels more real and more powerful than the reality I am currently experiencing.
Drugs will do that to you. They overload the senses. In a way, what you're saying is true because our perception of reality is just that, a perception. It's just the way our brain processes sensory information.

But that doesn't mean you had some sort of epiphany. You tripped, had some vivid experiences, and now your brain's 'bored' with the same old vanilla reality. It's all chemistry bro, scrambling up the inside of your brainbox like an omelettte isn't really something that should be on the top of every person's to-do list.

>>5859824
First thing is pretty dumb but it was realizing how much life is short and now I try to enjoy each day at it's maximum.

Second thing : I always thought I put a mask on in front of my friends and family, but I was putting the mask on myself. For years I made it look like I didn't really care/love/like them ( I thought so), and during the experience, I realized I loved every single one of my friend and family member so much I would have gladly died for one of them, I was only blocking my love/feelings for them so that If I ever died or went away they would'nt miss me. I loved them so much I looked like an asshole for all those years so they weren't attached to me, and all of this unconsciously.

>>5859877
>New outlook on life?
You just said the same thing but with different words

>you hear something but feel it physically
I can do that at a Swans concert

Look man I know it's a cool experience and everything but that's just it. There's no crazy higher plane of being that you're accessing with this stuff, you're just temporarily messing with your brain for entertainment.

>>5859876
What other handle on reality do I have? All I have to judge reality is to explain how real it feels. A delightful conflict arises. What is real in the end? What isn't? Am I dreaming now?

>>5859884
>There's no crazy higher plane of being that you're accessing with this stuff, you're just temporarily messing with your brain for entertainment.
Not him, but ... why should I take your word for it? I've been there. I know it is just as real as whatever you consider real. How can you be so sure it's just nothing wrapped in colorful plastic? You're just saying these things so you can find someone who agrees with you, so you can reinforce your own belief system even more firmly.

The truth is, you don't know. Neither do I. But at least I don't pretend to.

Alright. Some people can get more out of taking certain drugs than others.

Some people don't get anything out of it, some get a lot of mental benefit from it.

Is there a problem with that?

>>5859884

I never implied anything hyper-dimensional. That messing with your brain is what causes you to experience what I listed,

No matter how unrealistic it sounds you do have a new perspective after you try it, and you can indeed feel your senses combine.

Concerts are not even close to comparable to the feels you get while listening to music on psychs

I can copy and paste it >9000 times but I'ma just say it 1 more time 'you just don't get it and you never will till you try psychs'

>>5859895
The drug is like a microscope. You need to be versed in using it if you're going to benefit from it.

>>5859751
Yes, correct, it is just chemistry.

>>5859704
YAA MAN DMT IS LIKE TOTALLY MAGICAL AND SPIRITUAL BRAA, YOU GO TO ANOTHER REALM WITH SPIRITS MAAAANN, THE MOLECULES INTERACT QUANTUM MECHANICALLY WITH UR BRAIN TO MAKE U SPIRITUAL, NOT JOKING MAAANN READ SOME BOOK MAAAANNNN

>>5859894
Oh right I thought you were going with the hyperdimensional thing. Once you take that out then what you're saying is fine, that's the only thing I'm disagreeing with here.

>>5859906
It's funny how you think your argument is now justified because you used the word "just".

You live in the world of words. No wonder you have no reference points to discuss something so magnificent and ridiculously astonishing as the DMT experience.

>>5859909
They're just words. They don't describe anything. In fact if we were having this conversation on DMT we would both fall off chair laughing, just because the words are so meaningless when you come into contact with the real experience. And when you do, you're free to call it whatever you wish - it doesn't matter. Hyperdimensional, spiritual, or chemical. It's the same experience. You're just labeling it because that's what the culture has taught you.

>>5859903
Confirmed for never having tried DMT

>>5859884

your ignorance is showing man
have you ever seen music coming our of your speakers?

Pfffffffft. Get a load of you guys.

The reason why DMT works is because it resembles the receptors of a highly similar substance our body produces endogenously. There's nothing special nor magical about it. It's just that you're tampering with your brain, in a similar way to how electric stimulation to the motor cortex produces movement. Now it sounds amazing, but considering how it eventually ends up messing your brain's circuits, which in a way is yourself, it's just not worth it, at least for me anyways.

>>5859937
DMT is non-toxic. It doesn't mess up your brain circuits, not permanently anyway. You clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

>>5859941
It acts as a serotonin receptor agonist. I'm 100% positive that anything that acts as a receptor in the brain can alter the circuits. Hell, even hystamin agonists can induce sleep due to how they're connected to the cycle of sleep, so I'd be in the cautious side here.

>>5859955
It causes no more "circuit alteration" than watching the TV.

>>5859920
>>5859909
New anon here. I tried DMT once, and it was outside of and far away from any state of mind I could have imagined. But that said, I came out of it without a "spiritual experience" of any sort. In fact, I temporarily (for an hour) forgot who, where, what I was and felt as if I were whirling around backward in a centrifuge. It was pretty terrifying to say the least. I'm not saying that's a common DMT experience, I'm just volunteering my experience to you guys as a data point so you faggots can at least gain some new info from this thread. Anyone else have a similar experience? Much different?

>>5859964
The problem is that you expect a spiritual experience to be such and such. When you go into the trip with expectation, you can only be sure of one thing - it's not going to be as you expected. In a similar way, the spiritual awakening is not how you picture it. It can't be.

>>5859959
There's simply too little information right now according to studies to say it's benefitial or harmful. Like, some studies said it had benefits, but after reading them they do have a lot of methodological bias.

Thus far it does seem to affect working memory, but we know little else about its benefits or whatever, so better be safe than sorry.

>>5859982
Everything you do affects your mind. You're reprogramming yourself on a daily basis. You really think a natural agent that has been used for thousands of years and one that your own body is capable of producing as well, is going to harm you in a meaningful way?

>>5859983
Oh and don't think I'm trying to persuade you into trying DMT. In fact I would advise against it as you're probably not ready. Most people aren't.

>>5859983
Same can be said about THC then right?

Yes drugs are just tampering with brain chemistry. But think about the fact that you can experiment with brain chemistry and human consciousness for 10 bucks a night.

>>5859993
Sure.

>>5860000
Life is just tampering with brain chemistry. Just because you cleverly arrange words so that they appear meaningful, doesn't mean they really are.

>>5860002
Do you realize that adverse effects of THC are more than well documented?

>>5860010
What can a scholar tell me about love?
What can a girl tell me about love?

What can a scholar tell me about DMT?
What can DMT tell me about DMT?

Choose your sources wisely.

>>5860014

the only relevant source is Your own experience. everything else are unconfirmed rumor and speculations.

>>5859983
>using the word "natural" in an argument about MOLECULES being healthy or not
>>5859986
>hurr durr I'm such a badass I can take DMT.

Hallucinogens are just fucking up your brain and if you believe in anything you experience during the trips, you are psychotic. If you ever quit drugs, every drug, even marijuana, you'll realise. I did it, and damn, I'm still ashamed of what I believed while I was using.

>>5860028
>just
Please read >>5860004

>>5860004
>Life is just tampering with brain chemistry
Not really, a brain that functions normally in life is not being tampered with.

>>5860028
>Life is just fucking up your brain and if you believe in anything you experience during life, you are psychotic. If you ever quit life, every life, even life, you'll realise.

>>5860033
By who's definition? Yours?

>>5860030
you are implying that objective reality doesn't exist but somehow it doesn't seem to disappear. clearly, everybody have a different subjective reality but it's different. you can explore your consciousness and subconsciousness, you can get experiences, you can even make your life better with that, but you can't get new informations about objective reality. you can get that only by clear thinking and proving experiments. that's how scientific research works.

>>5860065
And you're sure of this?

>>5860036
again, objective and subjective reality is different.

>>5860068
I never heard of anybody discovering anything only by using drugs, so yes

>>5860069
It's really not. There's no such thing as objectivity. It's an ill concept contrived by humanity to allow for stability of the rational mind.

>>5860076
http://www.miqel.com/entheogens/francis_crick_dna_lsd.html

>>5860078
yet, physics work the same way in isolated communities

>>5859964
lol'd at the pic, I've only done dmt once as well and I had a pretty scary trip myself, same deal with the lack of spirtual experience.

DMT is one of the most powerful psychs available if you want to have a spirtual experience on it you need to have been around the block with other psychs or lower more controllable doses of dmt a few times

>>5860086
Do they? And how do you know? Through the subjective experience. So even if things appear objective, are they really? How would you know, being a life form that can only perceive subjectively?

Maybe things simply aren't there when you're looking at them. Maybe you're inside a computerized matrix. Or maybe there are invisible spirits, floating all around you. Or maybe the world truly does exist independent of you. But how would you know? You don't have any way to differentiate. No reference points, either.

The only thing that you can do is ponder about how little you know. The wisest know that they don't know.

>>5860078
and I tried to exit this "ill concept" during my psy times. the only thing happened is a big psychotic breakdown, losing contact with reality, panic and darkness. I somehow managed to ingore the inputs of objective reality and there was NOTHING ELSE. I know it's not proving because it's a subjective experience, I just wrote it as a curiosity. most horrifying 30mins of my life.

>>5859747
>enlightenment
>drugs, sex, or religion
>not obstaining from bodily pleasures to achieve a philosophical state of enlightenment similar to that Socrates embraced
ishygddt

I've taken LSD a few times. I used to be very much in the same position as many of the posters in the thread; LSD is something that affects brain chemistry, and any perceived spiritual value is laughable nonsense.

But I grew up. I learned more. I realized that all functions of the brain (love, memory, taste, thought) were all nothing more than chemical reactions occurring in our mind.

If the very basis of our perception and awareness is chemical, then why should we shun the use of chemical alteration of our minds? Particularly with a compound so thoroughly researched and effectively harmless as LSD. LSD and other psychoactive drugs, when combined with meditation, can end addiction (as was concluded by researchers before LSD was banned).

I'm an atheist. I believe processes in the brain cause human beings to pursue spirituality and understanding. I believe these processes can be augmented through the use of chemicals.

>>5860106
Socrates never advocated complete abstention from any of those things. Only moderation.

>>5860081
>>5860076
rekt

>>5860098
Or maybe I'm a carrot but everybody pretends I'm a normal human being so I can live a whole, happy life. What you just wrote are just possibilities. Unproven beliefs. Same as religions.

But let's go, create an other form of cognition of the world, a Science 2.0. You won't succeed.

>>5860122
I will if everyone in the world takes DMT at the same time.

>>5860114
>claims chemical reactions have the capacity to produce love, memory, taste, thought
>claims that love, memory, taste, thought are "nothing more than" chemical reactions

http://lesswrong.com/lw/or/joy_in_the_merely_real/

>>5860081
>http://www.miqel.com
Wow really reliable source there homie

The whole discovering DNA while on LSD is probably bullshit. There's no real evidence to suggest it ever happened.

>>5860134
But he's explicitly not saying that this somehow devalues those things.

The argument is that since we understand that emotions have a chemical basis we should think more highly of psychoactive chemicals, not less highly of our emotions.

Humans ITT:
>using reason to argue states of an illogical mind
>tagging phycs as 'mere' chemicals and not focusing on the effects
>making judgments without any experience
>pretending we understand the mind holistically
>pretending we understand the nature of reality
All the while /sci/fags know that our minds work on the quantum scale
All the wile /sci/fags know that quantum scales fluctuate space-time dramatically
All the while /sci/fags know that they don't understand the quantum scale and/or beyond

>>5860147
>All the while /sci/fags know that our minds work on the quantum scale

Penrose plz go

>>5860130
I would have a counter argument for that, but I have to sleep now. Read some of George Berkeley's books. He was the biggest spreader of your concept - immaterialism - and I (and many others like Descartes) found there are many logical glitches in his thinking. But do your research, you may find it otherwise. Some breaktrough in phylosophy would be beneficial anyway.

>>5860081
I enjoy taking psychedelics myself, but I cringe at all the "spiritual" people who think that you can just take LSD and come up with profound scientific revelations about the universe. Crick would have had to work hard for years in order to figure out the structure of DNA, he didn't just take LSD one day and magically figure out the double helix. There are plenty of good scientists who take psychedelics, but good scientists are the scientists who are willing to work as hard as they can, that's the main reason why they've made good contributions science.

>>5860115
>Socrates never advocated complete abstention from any of those things
>Phaedo
>whole discourse on how great being parted from the material world, one's body, and being able to embrace the immaterial plane of the forms
orlly?