/sci/ - Science & Math

>>5784009
Though a retarded meme, it is a decent book.

Ask >>>/prog/

It's serious. It doesn't seem like it's worth the time as you start, but if you give it a minute and programming is your "thing", you'll soon find it hard to put down

>>5784009
it's more serious than "install gentoo"

K&R is a better book to read and C is a better programming language. Enjoy your parentheses and shitty obscure language that nobody uses

Both.
It's highly likely to turn you into an insufferable, unemployable Functional programming or Lisp faggot though, so be careful.

>programming on my /sci/
this is a board on which we discuss science, not programming.

>>5784097
Programming is math in a different tongue.

>>5784076
to be honest these "factory visitor pattern" guys are just as bad.

the prevailing motive is that programmers are just insufferable.

programmers other than me, that is.

>>5784009

Many use it as a meme but the it's a great book, it opens your mind.

>>5784073

They are two very different important languages.

It would be better to know both of them.

DO NOT QUESTION THE SUSSMAN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY

There are also the SICP video lectures.

>>5784149
Do I really need to watch all the lectures too?

>>5784151

They could be useful if there is something unclear.

>>5784122
actually, properly it should be a "factory visitor meta-pattern" as it is a general principle that applies to a number of design patterns.

>>5784151
The books are supplements to the lecture?

>>5784154

...or if you just don't want to read the whole book.

>>5784218

The book is basically the textbook of that course.

>Not reading this instead

>>5784229

sorry, wrong picture.

>>5784234
What's the difference between the books Little Schemer, Seasoned Schemer and Reasoned Schemer?

>>5784229
>>5784234
Why are functional programming languages so commonly outlined in books obviously aimed at children?

>>5784250
never read the follow ups, sorry

>>5784252
Because they are made by fedora wearing sperglord manchildren for fedora wearing sperglord manchildren.
Functional programming is autistic tinkering with shit, about 10000 times less productive than learning a normal language or assembly.

>>5784009
what language would be the best to learn then?

>inb4 C++

>>5784315
Python is the absolute best way to start.

>>5784315
javascript

- functional, object oriented, procedural, whatever approach you want
- server side since 2010 (node.js)
- all them platforms, desktop, mobile

>>5784305
>1. go to medical school
>2. ???
>3. become lisp programmer

>>5784339
Lisper Logic

>>5784315

Java and C# are the ENTERPRISE QUALITY languages most companies use these days, if you're looking to programming as a job.

What is the philosohphy behind SICP and what is the actual target audience.
I have it here as a pdf and it seems pretty basic - although I can't of course judge too well without reading the text.

Regarding the debate here
>>5784305
I feel it's a two-edged sword: On the one hand, if one is honest, then one must say that all the fancy typing busines, and practice of overthinking programs before you write them down, is not practical. A more or less skilled C++ or Java person will the job done more effectively.
On the other hand, I'm still more on the functional programming language definding side, because I think that the spirit behind the design is what makes programming such a fine piece of human interlectual achievement.
One might admire a C programmer if he's super skilled expert in what he does. But learning "any of these applicable languages" is "merely mastering a craft". That is I can say "wow, jonny, you're a good carpenter, that's a great piece of work!", but nobody will admire the guy as if he was B. Franklin, W. Heisenberg or someone who does something for someone else than the company he works with.
(Okay, maybe this elaboration was over the top)

>>5784073
C is a shitty language. Important to know, sure. Still a shitty language. Lisp (or scheme as it easily leads to lisp anyway), on the other hand, is a brilliant language. Its syntax is excellent if you get far into the language even though it looks obtuse if you're not familiar with how powerful the syntax can be.

>>5784103
No. Programming may be used to apply math to practical activities but programming is not math.

>>5784409
C++ for high-performance applications that aren't embedded or system-level, though (this includes games and scientific applications' back-end).

>>5784553
What makes C a shitty language compared to LISP? Scheme is bigger than C and even slower.

/sci/ knows more about programming than /g/
well I'll be damned

So.. is the wizardry that I would learn from SICP be applicable to any programming languge / style?

What is the philosohphy behind SICP and what is the actual target audience.
I have it here as a pdf and it seems pretty basic - although I can't of course judge too well without reading the text.

>>5784638
Scheme is a functional programming language. Are C, C++, and many others functional? No, right?

>>5784623
Lisp has no advantages
its only good for forcing students to learn recursion

>>5784623
>scheme is bigger than C
Lol'd.

What makes C a shitty language compared to lisp is essentially the level of abstraction. In lisp, you think in terms of goals rather than implementation details. At the same time, lisp can express concepts that take a few dozen lines of C code in 5 or so lines even with a very small subset of the language. Another important point is the antiquated systems in C: #include? Really? Lisp's package system is incredibly powerful, on the other hand. Macros in general in C are pretty shit. Even C++ offers templates as an alternative. Sure, the syntax is crap, but it's safer and can be more expressively powerful. Lisp's macro system is really something else. You can have arbitrarily complex transformations work such that you can completely change the language's syntax if you so want with no external markings (that is, you don't have to use (my-super-macro '(function text as data)), you may directly use "for i in '(a b c): ..." and it would be parsed correctly into (loop for i in '(a b c) ...) if you want), while keeping the inherent safety of macros that aren't just text replacement.
Finally, features. First-order functions, anonymous functions, type inference (with optional type assertion enforced at compile time), and that's ignoring map, reduce, and fold operations which are of themselves extremely expressive, unlike everything in C.

>>5784645
It's about, as the name suggests, the structure and interpretation of computer programs. It's basically a cross between algorithmic and data structures. It's addressed at any programmer, really. It just so happens to use scheme (which is all the better, in my opinion).

>>5784655
>you think in terms of goals rather than implementation details.
>express concepts that take a few dozen lines of C code in 5 or so lines

Something like Java has already accomplished? Java is more popular so Googling shit is easier and it has better documentation and stuff

>>5784658
So it's not just a Scheme tutorial by itself?

>>5784638
Yes. Python and ruby, for example, have many similar constructs as in scheme or lisp in general. Even languages like C++, C#, and java are slowly adopting more and more features taken directly from lisps, and C and C++ support tail-call optimizations (which means you can adopt the non-stack-limited recursive style suggested in SICP).

>>5784638
You will learn a lot of recursion techniques but then again recursion in C is shit.

>>5784660
Then use clojure.
Checkmate.

>Something like Java has already accomplished?
Java takes a dozen lines of code to express concepts that C expresses in 5 lines or less, and the opposite is only true when you count implementations of features that aren't present in C's standard libs as part of the 'dozen lines' count for C.

>>5784664
It takes really no longer than an hour or two to learn scheme. That's how simple it is a language and it isn't a major part of the book by any means. From there, you'll work up algorithms and data structures and build up on your knowledge of scheme.

>>5784664
No, Scheme was the language that they felt would best convey the ideas. It's an old book and is no longer used for the MIT program.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_and_Interpretation_of_Computer_Programs#cite_note-3
""I talked to Professor Sussman on the phone... He said that he'd actually been trying to have 6.001 replaced for the last ten years (and I read somewhere that Professor Abelson was behind the move too). Understanding the principles is not essential for an introduction to the subject matter anymore. He sees 6.001 as obsolete"."

>>5784553
>let's write drivers in LISP

>>5784675

>>5784666
recursion is pretty much always shit

>>5784678
Always bliss, you mean.
>just as fast and memory-efficient as iteration
>very readable
>powerful
>closer to most mathematical definitions than iteration

>>5784675
>what are lisp machines
Also, it's funny how that's always what Cfag come up with when their language is criticized. Just because your language is shit doesn't mean there's an alternative for every application. Consider how both verilog and VHDL are complete crap language with obtuse syntax. Or matlab/maple/mathematica. Same shit, they all suck and there's no real alternative.

Lisp is only made for things related to mathematics. Lisp isn't used for serious things like >>5784675 said operating systems (modern ones), web servers, backend clients and applications like office applications, browsers, terminal emulators despite being a high level programming languge. It's just always C, C++, Java, Ruby and stuff

It makes me want to cry just thinking about it.

>>5784685
Verilog is a decent language

>>5784688
Compared to VHDL, it sure is. However, by itself, it's still crap. Bad syntax, bad paradigm. Ugly as sin.

>>5784687
Lisp is great for webservers. There are also very good webserver libraries for lisp. There's also no reason why it couldn't be used for any other kind of program. Common lisp can even do procedural programming very well (also, it has CLOS). With SBCL, it can be just as fast as C. Lisp has also been successfully used for games (see: naughty dogs using GOOL and then GOAL for all their games up to uncharted 1 (which still contains lisp code)).
The biggest problem with lisp is how although it should be crossplatform, it really isn't in general. It supports linux very well, mac pretty well, and windows not so well.

bump

>>5784621
There's a reason people call it /g/ - consumer electronics

>>5784694
>Bad syntax, bad paradigm.

What? Verilog is practically C and there are multiple paradigms you can code in.

I went through the videos as a philosophical pursuit, I talked about it in another thread:

Lambdas, anonymous operators, which are already understood because of my poor speaking/language skills and organization

Reaction-driven definitions: Instead of limiting something to a representation and then drawing out properties from that, you declare the reactions to exist, and then build a framework to try and contain the reactions, whichever way is easiest. Under normal conditions, people like object-oriented programming, but for me, functional designs are much more useful, because objects are always >implied to have certain properties or behaviors, whereas with a function, you want it to be the simplest which contains only the responses you believe something should make. It allows things to not be burdened by stereotyping and permits the least amount of thinking to have something interact with another system.

First-class functions: By not limiting to function to arbitrary regulations, functions can be used to create everything. Obviously not using data structures is dumb in programming and irl, the important piece is they are reactionarily equivalent. A good use of this is in problem modeling. Instead of the question "How can we get people to use less harmful drugs?" the question should be "What situations can we create which cause a decrease in the use of things which appear to have deleterious effects under certain circumstances in what appear to be people?" It is literally dehumanizing, but to solve something, you inherently have to unload cognitive biases and permit all of your knowledge and reasoning to seep into the problem, not in only the problem solving, but in the first step of creating a theoretical system which permits you to interact with possible outcomes, and choose which methods to pursue based on limitations of the system you're trying to work in.

>>5784901

Interesting. Thank you.

>>5784076

Jokes on you, I'm already unemployable!

>>5784554

lamda calculus is calculus

calculus is math

lamda calculus is programming

programming is programming

>>5784926
>lamda calculus is programming
And that's where your argument falls apart. Computer science is not programming. Programming is a tool used by computer science. Lambda calculus isn't programming, it's computer science.

>>5784901
at whom is this directed?

>>5784076
>unemployable
>Implying that "employable" in the software world means anything other than "knows Java" and "lives in India"

>>5784927
It's a general statement on some of the things I like about SICP.

One of the things I really like, using bits and pieces as personal methods, is that in my mind I can just say "well I'm using these thoughts, let's see if I'm forgetting anything", where if I was more of a C++/C/Python programming I might say "what systems of knowledge do I have" (i.e. under those paradigms I'd be more apt to think in terms of what have I been taught or given to use, instead of what can I use of all my knowledge)

I also like Lisp's parens and quotes. Makes syntax way easier than worrying about whitespace management, though I do like C-likes using semicolons and curly brackets. I do not like Pythons syntax.

>>5784935
Alson syntax, yeah, NO OPERATOR PRECEDENCE. I do not like operator precedence, though it's fun to abuse sometimes in math classes.

>>5784930

haskell is a scripting language
a scripting language is a run time environment programming language
lamda calculus can be implemented in haskell
haskell is programming
lamda calculus is programming
programming is programming

you're backpedaling on your definitions bro. I'm just arguing that the statement "programming is not math" is false, unless you have a very narrow definition of "math"

if elementary algebra and regular calculus (which is just a set of hints for elementary algebra) falls into the category of "math," then programming is also math, because at the end of the day, a function is still a function and a bit shift is still a multiplication or division by 10.

>>5784940
>programming is also math
Computer Science is a very specific subset of math. Programming is just its real-world application to problems.

>>5784940
Haskell is not a scripting language because it's compiled.
If X can be implemented in Y which is a Z, that doesn't mean that X is part of Z (otherwise, that makes math a programming language). You're being dumb. Please stahp.

>>5784045
install gentoo

>>5784950

surely you have a degree in computer science.

no man, you are literally shitting-out-of-your-mouth retarded.

you need not reply.

>>5784950
Until math includes time precedence, math describes less than computer science.

>tfw math only has indefinite states and no oscillating sets.

>>5784409
They're also repulsive, pig disgusting languages meant for code monkey zoos. There is zero room for creativity or imagination, and thus very little potential for true programming as opposed to just shitting out code.

Learn Python as a first language, then learn C, C++, and/or Javascript. If you truly love computer science by then, learn Lisp, Haskel, and/or Fortran. If you love mathematics and/or are a masochist, learn Assembly.

>>5784305
Do you know why Lisp isn't popular among businesses? It's because it's TOO productive. Businesses love Java because it is so tightly regimented that you can give a horde of barely literate community college graduates a list of psudo-code to translate and they will generate the exact same code every time. There is never any room to experiment, innovate, or try different solutions in Java; you simply follow the rules that have been handed down to you by your Sun/Oracle overlords. That way, one true programmer who does the actual thinking can herd the code monkeys effectively and they can be used as a machine to translate ideas into code.

Lisp is the exact opposite of that. Boundless possibilities; where Java is a regimented barracks of a language, Lisp is a blank slate; a tool that is used to manifest ideas in ways that can control machines. There are little in the way of restrictions on how certain things can be done, and thus it is all but useless in group based, zero-thought cubicle farms. Code monkeys would struggle to understand Lisp in the first place, because they are trained not to think but to follow rules, and Lisp has no rules. Even if they know the syntax, give ten Ivy Tech "graduates" psudo code and they will all produce the same or nearly the same Java code. Give the same psudo-code to ten Lisp programmers and the ten samples of code you get back won't even resemble each other.

>>5785081

Software firms create software the same way automotive firms create cars: through ordered assembly lines and chains of command designed to crush any form of individuality or inconsistency. They use employees as machines that repeat the same tasks over and over, all producing exactly the same end result. Java is perfect for this factory approach to programming, because it was designed for it, and thus companies use it. Lisp is horrible for it, as it *encourages*, and in fact *demands* thought, imagination, and creativity, rather than eliminating it. Thus, companies do not use it.

Java is McDonalds: mass produced trash put together by people whose actions are controlled utterly and any variation from the established canon is unacceptable/impossible. The end result is disgusting, and an insult to cooking. In fact, the word "cooking" is rarely used in reference to McDonalds, just as "computer science" is rarely applied to Java. Instead, "burger flipping" or "coding" is substituted. However, the end result is consistent across the world.

Lisp is a restaurant opened by a chef who is passionate about cooking. It can be difficult to accomplish because it requires actual knowledge instead of rote obedience to protocol, and any attempts at mass producing or outsourcing it will end in failure, but the end result is wonderful, beautiful, and a sublime example of what is possible in cooking/computer science.

>>5785081
>>5785082
Do all CS dropouts get this attached to a random method of writing their code and go on rants? I don't even want to wander over to /g/.

>>5785105
>I don't even want to wander over to /g/
It's not quite as hell-tier as /b/, /soc/ or /jp/, but it's definitely an extremely shit-tier board.

>>5785105
>CS dropouts
Wow, dude, stop projecting already. I'm doing my post-grad right now and I love the shit out of lisp. Go monkey up somewhere else.

>>5785105
>CS dropouts
Dude, that's the people who get hardons for Java. Actual graduates hate it because it's a shit language.

>>5785081
>>5785082

Christ, man, I like LISP, but you're not doing anyone any favors by going on huge rants about how "The Man is keeping LISP down."

>>5785081
>>5785082
Managers of programmers in large companies often don't give a shit about the projects they are working on and/or can't understand them. Writing lines of code is used as a metric to show you have accomplished something, as is fixing bugs. Java is a highly verbose language and you can fix things without actually fixing them.

And like you said, Java can treat programmers like replaceable pieces in a machine.

>>5785190
We have to go back to lisp machines. Only then will we have computers worth using.

>>5785081
>>5785082
>>5785203

...if I read SICP, will I turn into this? Is it like some dark tome that drives mortal programmers mad with the beautiful and terrible secrets within? Will I buy a cardboard box and a laptop and live under a bridge, ranting to passers-by about close-parens?

>>5785081
>>5785082

>implying you can't write a lisp interpreter in java
>being this mad and not starting their own firm
>remaining this mad

>>5785207
>It's GNU/Linux, or as I've come to call it recently, GNU + Linux

Use several languages so you don't go full retard. You will start to think in whatever languages you use often, which can turn you into a psuedo religious retard unless you diversify.

>>5785207
Pretty much, yes. It contains dangerous memes.

>>5785215
Would Python, some flavor of C, and maybe LISP just to see what all the fuss is about be a good combination?

>>5785221

add java.

it's useful if you need to interface with some things.

>>5785226
Which should I learn first? I hear Python's a great starting language, but C-alikes get you closer to the hardware, and maybe the magical insights of SCIP only work if you're not already conditioned to something besides Scheme or LISP.

>>5785081
>>5785082
Lisp.
Not even once.

>>5785248
Anything but lisp.
Not even 0 times.

>>5785234
As much as I dislike it Python is probably a decent starting language. It's what MIT teaches to their new students, so it can't be that bad.
C is great, but I wouldn't recommend it as a first programming language.
As for Lisp and Scheme, don't even think about touching a functional or hipster/alternative programming language at this point.

Anyways. Time to post some /prog/, from before it was nothing but spam and racism.

2 of 12

3 or 12

3 or 12

4 of 12

5 of 12
How did I manage to get a /prog/ folder when you can't even post images there?

6 of 12

>>5785282
I love how they covered op the fingering.

>>5785292
Fingering? What are you talking about? Lisp does not involve fingering.

7 of 12

8 of 12

9 of 12

10 of 12

>>5785301
>>5784009
so whats op with the snake?

11 of 12

12 of 12

I don't know about you guys, but this made me learn with the power of a thousand suns.

12 of 12

I don't know about you guys, but this made me learn with the power of a thousand suns.

Le Google engineer Peter Norvig says it is probably the best introduction to computer science.

>>5785309
Not completely sure what the origins are, but it's some sort of mascot / meme associated with SICP and /prog/.

>>5785296
I've read SICP and achieved Satori as well. Feels good man.

>>5785301

I forgot how shitty a language Lisp is. Brackets everywhere.

>>5784009
I searched my online bookstore for it, and saw this..

>>5785317
>>5785309
I decided to take the bus, so I headed for the bus stop. A short while later, the bus had stopped at a traffic light outside of the library when all of a sudden this huge black snake head with retarded-looking eyes pops through the window and screams loudly "HAVE YOU READ YOUR SICP TODAY?" With almost no thought I departed the bus, and I ran inside as quickly as possible; the snake head was now chasing me around as I frantically searched for the legendary book among the shelves. I spotted the distinctive blue cover and ran toward it, the huge head inches from my ass. With great force I pulled the book from the shelf and instinctively directed it at the black head which by now was dripping with saliva at the mouth. It disappeared as it made contact with the book, disintegrating into a flurry of glowing parentheses.

I sat there dazed for a few seconds, watching the feathery parentheses slowly become smaller and fade away into nothingness. Slowly, I stood up, still clutching the purple book. I wondered about what I should do with it, then decided to put it back on the shelf. After doing so, I walked back out to the exit and boarded a bus, for where I did not know. The bus driver looked strangely familiar as I dropped the coins into the farebox;

"HAVE YOU READ YOUR SICP TODAY?" he suddenly yelled at me. Oh fuck, I thought to myself. Now I knew why he looked so familiar: He was The Sussman!

"Umm... no," I responded weakly. Suddenly his head looked a lot darker than it was a moment ago, and an evil grin appeared across his face. The bus's doors slammed shut and The Sussman's face turned an almost negroid black. His left hand shot at me and I could see that it was not a hand, but the head of a snake which protruded from its end. I turned around and ran towards the back of the articulated bus.

"Let me show you the power of Satori," The Sussman said in a deep hiss. His snakelike arm extended from his body towards me as I continued to run for what seemed like eternity towards the longbus's rear door.

"Longbus is loooooooooooooooooooooong", I thought to myself as I continued to run, the snake's head fast approaching. The bus seemed to go on forever. After a while, I passed the driver's seat. WTF, I thought. Ahead of me was The Sussman, standing in the aisle facing the same direction as me, with his left arm pointed forward.

I looked behind me, and saw the snake head was still approaching; I had managed to outrun it for a bit, and it was racing towards me. RECURSION! I jumped into the stepwell just as the head gained a sudden burst of speed, piercing through The Sussman and sending bright glowing parentheses everywhere. I watched first his body, then his hands disintegrate in the same manner that the head had earlier. The long black arm, floating in mid-air, slowly disappeared into a cloud of these glowing parentheses, and the snake's head, which I now noticed had come through the windscreen along with me, did the same after a few moments.

I stepped over to the driver's seat, looking for the door release switch. I found what appeared to be the switch and toggled it, but the doors did not open. Shortly after, a low hissing sound emanated from the bus itself, followed by the loud booming cry of "HAVE YOU READ YOUR SICP TODAY?", which felt as if it was coming from inside my head. Suddenly everything turned black.

>>5785565
Clearly SICP readers are great lovers.

>>5785081
>>5785082
Congrats, you are now in my pasta folder.

>>5785590
Or just really obsessed with jerking off.
Probably that.

>>5785565
100% relevant. That is the power of lisps.

>>5784009
How does Lisp compare to Python? I know little to nothing of Lisp. Also, what dialect would you Lispfags recommend?

>>5785758
PROTIP: Experienced programmers know that all languages have their strengths and weaknesses.
Only naive ones get obsessed with one specific language.
For this reason you should avoid taking advice from Lispers.

>>5785770
Yes, but who best to state the pros and cons of a language then the fags who are most obsessed with it. So long as they don't pull the usual Javerfag response of "Because it the best" or "muh industry standard" or something like that, I'm very fine with whatever elitist opinions they might have....

>>5785777
But what they say is still just as much bullshit.
Did you even read the rant earlier in the thread? It's hilariously deluded. The first couple lines alone made me lol heartily.
Being an industry standard is a far more valid reason than "THERE'S A CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE LANGUAGE BECAUSE IT'S TOO GOOD!!!!1!!"

>>5785267
>>5785270
>>5785277
>>5785282
>>5785285
>>5785291
>>5785296
>>5785301
>>5785303
>>5785305
>>5785308
>>5785313

Thanks

>>5785758
Use common lisp.
Also, the macro system alone is so powerful it has its own addictive properties. Aside from that, the lack of use of whitespace as delimiters makes it a more pleasant language to use. It supports pretty much everything python as a language supports, and its OO system is stronger as well as not as annoying (having to add self to everything in python is a pain in the ass). It also sports a much better package system giving excellent control over inter and intra package interactions. Other than that, it shouldn't be too hard to get into coming from python if you're used to python's functional features.

>>5784315
compiled - C or C++
interpreted - python or ruby

>>5785977
>interpreted - ruby

Ruby is a fucking train wreak. Learn Scheme instead

>>5786051
Scheme is a fucking joke. Learn python instead.

>>5786054
One word: THE FORCED INDENTATION OF THE CODE

>>5786054
Python is great, I was mocking ruby.

>>5786056
>>>/prog/
>>>/shithole/

>>5786059
Go back to /b/ please!

It's from 1985, a comparatively elderly era of computing. Its ideas are barely relevant today.

The world has moved on, and we are using more modern programming techniques and languages.

Please take my advice and realise that you are wasting your life by worshipping this ancient, forgotten text and its creator.

Thank you.

>>5786069
>implying

You don't program do you

>>5786069

>implying the lambda calculus and a near transparent representation thereof could ever be irrelevant

>>5786069
>its creator
What is Abelson doing these days?
Cooking up a justification for MIT's will to see Swartz be convicted of a felony for breaking into a closet? (Or is it for downloading articles that he had legitimate access to? lol.)
Maybe it won't play out that way, time will tell.

The Lisps are Science.

Java and the rest are marketing.

This seems like some cult text going by this thread.

>>5786482
But it is

>>5786069
Because Java and C++ are modern ENTERPRISE programming languages right?

>>5786488
Posting this to help the Java and .Net people and NO your sacred E N T E R P R I S E has not caught up yet....

>>5784073
IIRC the point of SICP is to give the reader a general thought process about approaching programming tasks, and it just uses Scheme to achieve this.

>>5786932
>average incomes reach $150k

>>5786972
The top 10% make way more then that. Don't be so butthurt Jews steal all your gold, goy.