/sci/ - Science & Math

Was it really necessary to start a new thread? The old one is still up.

>>5606739
I figured that since the old one was clusterfucked I should make this one, I was in the middle of making a post with all my neurosci info though

I can delete it if you want I guess

By the way, here's some resources I've accumulated on learning neurosci. Saging so as to be polite. I know it isn't impressive at all, but I figure some people haven't seen these.

Neurosci.faq: http://pastebin.com/H7RgZDwx

CNS's neurosci and stat. phys thread: Go to chanarchive and look on the first page, its there, but I can't post it

Neuropharmacologist PHD on /fit/:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?kroc2ygp5rr0bxl

Some guy's neuro question thread:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?r1wx361diqrquai

>>5606739
the other one's autosaging btw

aaaaaanyone? I'm trying to get in touch with a prof but its kind of hard

>>5606742
>I can delete it if you want I guess

Please do it.

Teh old one has become self-awear.

>>5606826
I'm not going to do it anymore, as the other one is autosaging, apologies

Whatever you do LEARN MATH, it's tempting for biologists to dismiss mathematics as being something used in physics and chemistry but there is a fuckton on math in neuroscience if you actually want to understand what's going on. Learning differential equations and dynamical systems is probably a bare minimum.

>>5606864
Definitely, I was intending on doing it myself if I wasn't able to take a real class on it.

Thanks

it depends on what you want to do within neuroscience. if you're interested in cognitive neuro, you should double major in neurobio and psych; if you're interested in computational, you should double in comp-sci and neurobio, with a minor in math (be sure to take multivariate calc and differential equations).
if you plan on going to grad school, try to figure out the general area you'd like to do your thesis in, and tailor your undergraduate career to that

>>5606889
I want to learn about how the brain does calculations and makes decisions based on input, and how these abilities degrade, and how to stop said degradation. I'm also kind of interested in neuroengineering but I suppose that its not a very good field to go into?

I suppose I'll take the compsci, neurobio, and math though. Thank you VERY much :^)

>>5606907
hmm... well the calculation and decision making is probably more computation neuro. as for the degradation, that's probably more biologically based. you can't go wrong with a neurobio major, minor in compsci and math

>>5606973
Ok, I think I'm prolly set then

Honestly, thank you so much

>>5606985
yea no problem. i'm fortunate, my uni has an undergraduate degree in neuroscience that covers all the disciplines, so i feel like i should share what i know

>>5607006
wait up, mine has a neuro specialist that leads to a BSc. is that what you meant?

>>5606747
>CNS's neurosci and stat. phys thread: Go to chanarchive and look on the first page, its there, but I can't post it
Keep in mind, that thread isn't consolidated science, but mostly just my opinion on the particular framework. I don't think you'll be able to learn much about neuroscience from that, unless you have a firm grounding in the basics, and are able to see how the thread is an alternative (or complementary) way of looking at the brain as a system.

Sorry for the off-topic post. I assumed your question was already answered.

>>5607030
I figured it was interesting, sorry :^)

>>5607033
Alrighty then.

>>5607030
>Keep in mind, that thread isn't consolidated science

Yeah, like most of the garbage you're usually spouting.

>>5607035
Hey, no worries. That was the main point of the thread: to be an interesting read.

>>5607011
yes, it's a bachelor's of science that covers cognitive, biological, and computational neuroscience

Question: I'm planning to declare a double major in neuroscience and mathematics. I really like pure math but I feel applied math might look better paired with neuroscience (my school allows a pure math major or one of several different types of applied math majors). Should I compromise here and go for applied?

>>5607040
8^)
>>5607047
Oh, okay. Mine doesn't give you access to the upper level compsci courses (You need to have at least a minor for most of them), so I prob wont take it, thanks again!

>>5607058
I think it might be clearer if you tell them/me the possible applied majors offered friend-o

>>5607066
Computational math, operations research, prob/stat, or scientific applications. Its all an "applied math" major, but you have to choose a concentration

>>5607074
Well i guess operations research and prob/stat could be ruled out. Does the concentration even matter or is it just one of those dumb things universities do, like it doesn't restrict courses at all

>>5607082
It's kind of restrictive. After the general, foundation courses, you have to take one course from each of the four areas, and then three from your concentration. But abstract>applications, imo, and doing this would make it so I don't get to take as many of the math types I like

>>5607098
I suppose you should take the pure if there aren't any restrictions, as I don't REEAAALLY think it will matter for acceptance as long as you do well. Not sure though, maybe someone higher up will answer your question better than I can.

>>5607103
Thanks. I'm meeting with my adviser next week about it too

A wave of what can only be described as "shitty math skillz" is plaguing biology right now. Case in point:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/doubts-about-johns-hopkins-research-have-gone-unanswered-scientist-says/2013/03/11/52822cba-7c84-11e2-82e8-61a46c2cde3d_story.html

The people that are going to be successful in biological research, neuro or otherwise, are the ones who can write grants clearly defining how you are going to arrive at unbiased statistical significance and develop models based not on your gut, but on the raw facts. Big data is also pretty much overtaking Mom & Pop genetics labs. They used to thrive, but now single labs can discover decades worth of connections in less than a year, and then suggest new ones. If you're serious about research, you want to be at the front. Not a hen pecking at the flakes left by the guys telling you what is or isn't possible.

>>5607255
Is this copypasta?

Neuroscience major here, you only need stats and every single course includes them. They also use software (spss) to even skip through that. For PhD math, and coding helps, but neither are prerequisites to your BSc. Even then it depends on the project. /sci/ will tell you you require calc III to eat breakfast.

>>5607368
I think they referenced the differential eqn's and "dynamical systems" because it is probably integral to know them to understand papers and such

Guy with neuroscience degree and doing active research in the field here

Whether or not you need math for neuroscience depends ENTIRELY on what you want to do in neuroscience. It is a gargantuan field that has it's fingers in pretty much everyone else's pie. It's the new central science in that every other field of science manages to somehow link up with neuroscience.

The reality is that if you want to do traditional neuroscience research the only math you really need to know is statistics. There are fields of research that do use shit like diff. eq. and linear algebra, but they're mostly confined to computational neuroscience which is just one branch in the field. You can also run into more advanced math if you go into electrophysiology, but you'll have programs to take care of most of that for you in that case.

Yes, it's true that computational neuroscience is getting interesting. However, contrary to popular belief, neuroscience is not entirely focused on figuring out how information gets processed by the brain. In fact, the research most likely to get funded is good ol' biomedical "find out how to keep us from dying horrible deaths" research, and the two most hottest fields in that area are molecular and behavioral neuroscience.

Anyway, if you're interested in computational neuro, then yeah, double major comp sci and neuro, and may as well minor in math if you're going to major in comp sci. If you're interested in brain-computer interfaces and shit like that, then you need to do biomedical engineering instead with an emphasis on neuroengineering. If you want to research neurological diseases, stick with just plain neuro. If you want to research psychiatric diseases, double major in psychology. If you want to find treatments for diseases, buy a dragon dildo to get ready for the MD/PhD admissions process.

>>5607464
Holy shit I'm cumming you are the fucking best man, this is literally everything I need, fuuucking fuck thank you

capped for future generations, may you be blessed eternally by qualia

>>5607464
felt like thanking you again :^)
polite sage bcuz i'm not a bumpwhore

>>5606724
It all depends on what you want to specialize in. Computational/mathematical neuroscience is going to be vastly different than molecular neuroscience which will be vastly different from cognitive neuroscience, etc. Neuroscience is a field you can practically get in at any level. Mathematical, Physical, Chemical, Biological, so just choose the one that interests you most.

>>5607591
Wish I just read >>5607464 before posting my drivel...

>>5607601
i still love you anyway :^)
polite sage, offtopic

Doing undergrad research work will do more for you than your choice of major. It is a pain, basically laboring for free, but it is worth it for two reasons:
1. you start getting connections that will help you with future applications
2. you will see what neuroscience research is really like and bail early if its not what you expected

Find a lab to work for a few months in the summer and you will be able to answer a lot of questions by yourself. Good luck.

>>5607753
Thanks. I don't intend on bailing though. :^)

Keep in mind that math majors are overrepresented on /sci/ and are ceaseless advocates for their field. I think majoring in math is totally unnecessary and perhaps counterproductive. All you need is the "workhorse math": Calc 1-3, diff eq, linear algebra. Some probability/stats. Maybe some numerical methods, definitely some programming.

From what I've seen of undergrad neuro/cogsci, it's like econ in that the undergrad curriculum is way too soft. All the real action is in grad school and requires more technical ability.

>>5607780
This is exactly what I've heard too, which is why I wanted to just take the math major + neuro major and learn supplementary neuro by myself, because I would be able to. I'm still reviewing everything I know and putting together possible action plans

Thanks for the advice though :^)

>>5607793
make sure you get the required courses to apply for grad school. if you apply to a neuro program, they're going to require coursework in bio, chem, etc.

a biomedical engineering grad program would be more welcoming to a math major, as you could do neuroscience without once putting on gloves.

your major really only matters so much though, most people i know in any program didnt get their BS in that same field, id say 80% are biochem or biology majors. i have met only one other person so far with degree in microbiology though, which i find weird.

anyway, your undergrad research and letters are going to matter a lot more than your major or your gpa (as long as youre above 3.3)

i say this speaking as a grad in a neuroscience dpt

>>5607833
grad student*

>>5607833
Shit, all this different advice is confusing me. I'll make sure to do research every summer and attempt to get buddy buddy with a prof without being one of those fake suckups, ugh.

Thanks a bunch brother :-], Extremely appreciated.

Honestly all this advice has been extremely helpful and I would have probably made a couple of bad mistakes if I didn't make this thread.

>>5607851
good luck

>>5607780
Guy from >>5607464 here

I don't know a single neuroscientist who took math above calc 2. The most math I've ever heard anyone say they used as a PhD neuroscientist is calculating area-under-the-curve values, but that's kind of silly considering statistical programs do all the work for you with that analysis. I've also never seen math beyond statistics used in any paper I've read. I'm sure things are different over in the computational neuro world, but those guys don't really hang out with the bio and behavioral people.

I also don't know anyone who knows how to program. I've been asked on several occasions if I knew how, but that was only because someone wanted a protocol hacked up. Granted I'm actually learning right now, but that's more as a hobby than anything else.

Undergrad neuro curriculum differs from school to school. At my undergrad it had a few classes that were considered some of the hardest in the entire undergrad college. I had several classes where the professors straight up admitted that said classes were no different from the graduate versions other than the semester being longer. I took a grad class from the grad department while I was there and I wouldn't say it was any harder than undergrad, just different. I've also published several first author papers, presented at conferences, and led two independent projects of my own design and for me the hardest part was never the theory, but rather the methodology and actually doing the experiments.

>>5607753
No, research is worth it because without it you're not going to grad school. Research is the most important aspect of your undergrad career. Even GPA and test scores are secondary to research experience. Find a lab, work your ass off, get a project, and then work your ass off even harder until you graduate. I personally put in 20-40 hours a week in my lab during the school year and 40-70 hours a week during the summer and holidays. Fuck those "summer experiences".

>>5607861
fwiw everyone i know who can code learned to do so when put on a project that required it. as far as languages used, ive only ever seen matlab and python, and some idl once. not to say that others arent useful, ofc

>>5607861
You're making the terrible and narrow minded assumption that what was required for today's neuroscientist will be the same 10 years from now.

If you don't know any people in your field using math or programming, you are probably not doing major research. You should reflect on that and consider where you stand in the bigger picture of the field before giving advice for someone to take the "standard" route.

I've advocated multiple times, in both threads, for higher math because within a reasonable and not too distant future the majority of important neuroscience work - if you want to be an actual player in the cutting edge research - will require that you are able to comprehend complex mathematical systems and theorems. Any monkey (or machine for that matter) can do most basic biological assays. It takes a mind that can sculpt the output of those experiments into the greater context of the discipline that will thrive in the environment.

If in 10 years you want to pick up where everyone left off, doing pyschoanalysis on fMRI-linked patients and poking brain slices with electrical probes, you go right ahead. I'd rather be the guy who hires people to do that shit and then finds new questions to ask through reasoned mathematical interpretation of the data.

Neuroscience is at a beautiful state in it's history right now where it can LEARN from the horrendous mistakes made by oncology and general cell biology. They've spent decades doing correlative experimentation and are just now starting to use math to get at the intricate substructures of cell motility, division, kinase cascades, receptor interactions, transcription/translation relationships, and more. All of it requires math. All of it requires computers. All of it requires people that know how to put those two things together in the context of biology.

>>5607861
>>5607872
Fuck. Time to apply to research courses. Thank you again, I'll be contributing as soon as I can.

>>5607887
I'm not sure whats happening anymore, fuck.
I'm going to read through all of these in context with eachother.

>>5607887
this guy just has a real math fixation. sure, its important, "advanced math" will see more application in the future, but most neuro research is not going there.

there remains plenty of basic science (with minimal math) to do before these crazy mathemagicians have enough data to spin the webs

I did neuro, I understand neuro papers. It's a big field with many things to specialize within it. I know some guys who transferred over from physics and do channel stuff. Some came in from bioinformatics. Most are just neuro people. I say do neuro to get a grasp of what there is, then after you decide on what particularly you like in neuro you can supplement with whatever classes you like. Just make sure biochem and cell bio is in there, they are not always a requirement in all curriculums.

>>5607887
What's your experience in the field?

>>5607887
As I said, I've published papers. I've attended conferences. I'm involved in some projects that are pretty fucking impressive, stuff that's been published in Nature and Cell.

What's your experience in the field? Because you sound like a freshman undergrad whose concept of science comes from Hollywood when you say shit like
>doing pyschoanalysis on fMRI-linked patients
>I'd rather be the guy who hires people to do that shit and then finds new questions to ask through reasoned mathematical interpretation of the data.

There is no push towards more quantitative methods in biology or neuroscience right now. If anything there's a greater push in the OPPOSITE direction. Behavioral research is big right now, and getting bigger. The NIH practically demands to see behavioral components to any neuro grant proposals these days, and even big pharma is scooping up behavioral researchers to run tests for psychotropics. And behavioral research is very qualitative.

You are seriously the first and only person I've heard announcing this upcoming paradigm shift towards heavy mathematics, and I really can't figure out where you've gotten this idea from.

>>5607984
I can confirm this sounds right, neuro dept is 2 floors up from me. Also pictures. You guys are really into your pictures.

guy from >>5607753

I also dont see this much math being used, unless you are doing computational neuro. Programming is useful if you will be correlating neuron firing and behavior, usually using MatLab. But most of my colleagues learned how to program once they had to start working on the project.

If you are still confused just try asking a bunch of post docs (they are less biased than professors). You can normally find their email listed online in lab web pages.

>>5607984
>What's your experience in the field?
Biology and Genetics Bachelor from Ivy League Institution. PhD from top Pharmacology Department in the U.S. studying cell signaling. Writing Neuro fellowships for potential early lab positions in the Fall.

>I'm involved in some projects that are pretty fucking impressive, stuff that's been published in Nature and Cell.

I'm not out to flame you, that's not what this thread is about, but to me that means: I work on topics that were already published in these journals. Everyone works in a lab that had a big paper at one point. That doesn't mean you're doing the cutting edge material now, or that you're looking toward the future horizon of what will be big.

>>5607984
>There is no push towards more quantitative methods in biology or neuroscience right now.

The above statement is simply false.

>You are seriously the first and only person I've heard announcing this upcoming paradigm shift towards heavy mathematics

Really? Do you even literature?

http://www.nature.com/embor/journal/v11/n5/full/embor201055.html
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v491/n7425/full/nature11554.html
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/338/6103/60.full?sid=7d498449-6828-4ef3-af65-0c7fd5bf1e4d
http://www.maa.org/mtc/quant-bio-report.pdf <-- this is 13 years old. Is your head that deep in the sand?

Every good institution in the country has started quant. bio curricula within the last decade.

http://www.princeton.edu/quantbio/
http://www.oeb.harvard.edu/research/math_comp.html
http://cbb.yale.edu/
http://csbi.mit.edu/
.. I could go on. These programs are all federally funded.

Whatever. It isn't about proving you wrong, or educating you. I honestly don't feel the need to keep going. OP, you should decide what you are actually INTERESTED in doing. If you don't love math, don't do it just because it gives you a leg up. But if your question is what will make a good neuroscientist of the future, I'd consider math.

>>5607909
>>5607976
>>5607984
>>5607988
>>5608379
>>5608607

Fuck. I didn't think people were still replying to this, thanks for for all the points though fucking hell, neuroscientist arguments are scary

>>5608946
shit didn't mean to bump I am an aidslord

Great now we have a dick measuring competition between two babbies.

Listen up OP. You dont need to know what will make you a good neuroscientist in 10 or 15 years. By then you will have forgot most of your college education anyways.

What you need to know, is what makes you a good PhD candidate in how many years you have left of college. See you could be the next Kandel but if you dont make it past the hurdle of phd application then the world will never know.

Now I dont know how familiar you are with the kind of selection that goes on in doctorate program admissions, and I do not want to scare you. But it is fucking nasty. Especially when you consider the ever growing competition from foreign graduates, especially from China and India, that have developed a reputation for being incredibly hard working and happy to be slave away for pennies.

But you have one advantage over them. Because you physically live closer to the professors and institutions, you have a chance to begin building connections now. So take that chance and make sure that when the time comes to apply for a good phd program you have a bunch of old men and women ready to vouch that you have a big dick.

Follow this advice and you will thank me one day.

>>5609791
Fuck, I hate doing this, I don't wanna be a suckup. Thank you though, I will try. :^}