/sci/ - Science & Math

no way to find out

>>5589951
That's a huge fallacy. We've located several underground ruins that are evidently very old and man made. What is the concession here?

>>5589954
That you're spitting out bullshit

>>5589954
You're missing the obvious explanation.

>>5589978
Elaborate.

>>5589983
Well, where are these underground ruins?

>>5589983
No elaboration necessary. Hitchen's razor.

>>5589988
Sorry, I meant underwater not underground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonaguni_Monument

>>5589992
The absence of evidence doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Entropy and time destroy things eventually.

Yes. In africa, before europeans destroyed everything, stole their tech, and gave them the plague which mutated into HIV.

>>5590010
Aaaaaaand what's your point exactly. There was a thing there once, and now it's gone. Probably sunk by a tidal wave. They're all dead.

>>5590018
Can you be any more passive? It's our history we're talking about. Of course it is important that we try to understand it.

>>5590024
Well, what can we learn from this dead civilisation?
Another doomsday calendar? Even their most advanced discoveries have been surpassed by us in the last few centuries.

>>5590043
Humans haven't been around for very long. Earth is billions of years old.

>>5590010
>The absence of evidence doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
No, but there also has to be a fair amount of evidence too. Otherwise this argument could be used for anything, and would be highly fallacious.

>>5590052
True. But there have been discoveries that don't fit into the mainstream Darwinian explanation. The problem is that people are unwilling to even look at it. It's a hear no evil see no evil type of thing.

>>5590049
You aren't seriously suggesting that there have been other sapient species who died out recently enough for anything but their fossils to remain, right?
>>5590054
You may be right, but this still sounds like a crackpot conspiracy theory to me.

>>5590056
Imagine how quantum physics would sound to an ancient Roman.

>>5590054
Just read the Wikipedia article; that looks natural to me.
>>5590058
I'm not sure which part of my post you're referring to, but it doesn't matter much. That's why science must take babby steps instead of trying to make big-boi leaps, aint it?

I seem to recall we had an almost identical debate last month when the subject of deep-history pre-hominids rose its ugly head. Let me lay this down for you in 3 easy steps

1. Knowledge is based upon evidence. Everything else is , at best , conjecture , at worst outright fiction.

2.Though it is increasingly clear that the shift from nomadic to agrarian socieites was neither linear nor concentrated in one specific part of the world , there is little evidence to support the existence of urban civilisation prior to ~8000BC.

3.What little evidence does exist is inconclusive , poorly explored , and often entirely fictitious. For example most Hydrographers have concluded that the Yonaguni Monument is nothing more than a unusually regular natural rock formation. Human remains recovered from nearby islands suggests that the area was not settled until 2500BC. Old , but still off by more than 7500 years.

TLDR; Cryptoarcheologists are still burdened by the need for hard fact

>>5590054
Yonaguni is about as artificial as the bimini road.

>discoveries that don't fit
Interesting. Examples? Sauce?

>>5590107

>>5590108
Anomalous, for sure, but hardly compelling.

Sure, there might have been a flourishing culture of mechanist artificiers, with most structures built from perishable materials, but if no other evidence is found, the anticythera mechanism might as well stay as the brainchild of a lone inventor.

>>5590112
Lone inventors aren't very redundant through history. In my opinion the mechanism is one of the few remaining pieces of evidence of a pre-Babylonian civilization. I think we will find more as we explore the oceans.

of course - read your Earthdawn/Shadowrun

There could have been. Archeologists are trying to protect their current narrative so we don't know.

>>5590119
>Archeologists are trying to protect their current narrative so we don't know.

Bullshit. That's what crackpots always say when experts don't take them seriously - it's not that my reasoning and evidence is flawed, it's all a giant conspiracy to silence me! The truth is, any archeologist would kill to discover an entire ancient civilization.

>>5590113
What I mean is that the steam orb of Heron is as much evidence for Egyptian steamers on the Nile as the anticythera mechanism is of an advanced civilization.

Without collaborating evidence, any idea of an advanced ancient civilization is just a flight of fancy and will be treated as such.

While alternate-history stories are fun and interesting, works of fiction are not evidence.

If you claim otherwise, you might as well go to /x/ with this.

>>5590167
The difference is that in other fields anyone can perform the experiments. A supercollider isn't cheap but it isn't bound to any particular location. The archeologists trying to protect their story can keep others from making digs at the only place they can be made.

Indus valley civilization had nukes

Radioactive dust in that region

>>5590107
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OOPARTS

>>5590108
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism#Similar_devices_in_ancient_literature

There's no evidence of synthetic materials such as polymers, no evidence of landfills, no evidence of advanced architecture (chunks of rocks placed on one another are nothing but an evidence of primitive yet resourceful society building monumental buildings that do nothing), we still have oil left.

There's no evidence of synthetic materials such as polymers, no evidence of landfills, no evidence of advanced architecture (chunks of ridiculously heavy rocks placed on one another are nothing but an evidence of primitive yet, organized and resourceful society building monumental buildings that are completely useless for any real practical purpose), we still have oil left.

>>5590213
OOPARTS are interesting, but at most are evidence that some people traveled further than was thought.

If I find a coke bottle in the antarctic, that just evidence that someone was there with a coke bottle, it's not evidence for a secret imperium that has a super-scientific coke-bottle projector that can produce coke bottles anywhere in the world.

There's no evidence of synthetic materials such as polymers, no evidence of landfills, no evidence of advanced architecture (chunks of ridiculously heavy rocks placed on one another are nothing but an evidence of primitive yet, organized and resourceful society building monumental buildings that are completely useless for any real practical purpose), we still have oil left.

Picture totally related, they are marvelous, but in the end were completely useless.

There's no evidence of synthetic materials, no evidence of landfills, no evidence of advanced architecture (chunks of ridiculously heavy rocks placed on one another are nothing but an evidence of primitive yet, organized and resourceful society building monumental buildings that are completely useless for any real practical purpose), we still have oil left.

Picture totally related, they are marvelous, but in the end were completely useless.

There's no evidence of synthetic materials, no evidence of landfills, no evidence of advanced architecture (chunks of ridiculously heavy rocks placed on one another are nothing but an evidence of primitive yet, organized and resourceful society building monumental buildings that are completely useless for any real practical purpose), we still have oil left.

Picture totally related, they are marvelous, but in the end were completely useless.

THE PROBLEM WITH OP IS THAT HE'S ALREADY DECIDED THAT ITS SOMETHING SUPER IMPORTANT. TO HIM, IT CANNOT BE SIMPLY SOMETHING.

>>5590252
What if it were buried 2000m deep in ice?

>>5590272
Then I would propose searching for signs of boreholes, fissures, bottom-melt or similar, non-extranormal ways for it to have appeared there.

If none were found, I would mark it as a mildly-interesting anomaly.

The problem with saying "advanced civilizations" is that to some people that means nukes, electricity and plastics and to others organised, megalithic stone age societies.

I think the second interpretation deserves more discussion. The Gobelki Tepe is perhaps the most fascinating find in modern archeology, and there are as yet largely unexplored megalithic sites in the Urals. My guess is that these were one off experiments, failed transitions to urban society: like the Kincaid site, but we really don't know.

how would people react to our culture in 500 years

>as you can see the secluded basement dweller would spend most of his days arguing about topics he skimmed on Wikipedia.

>Ancient humans always settled near the coastline
>The water levels were much lower in the past

It is not unthinkable that there are some "lost civilizations".

>>5590279
>non-extranormal
That we don't know about something doesn't make it extranormal

10000 BC?
I'm pretty sure the planet is only 6000 years old

I wouldnt say advanced.

But you could bring someone from 12,000 years ago into the modern world as a baby, and raise them like a typical modern child, and they'd be absolutely no different to the rest of us (so long as they are the same race).

>>5590405
>6000
>not 2000
dumbass it's fukken TWENTY THIRTEEN, lrn 2 year
>>5589950
yes.
also defined advanced pls

>most ancient
>most complex
>doesn't get the attention it should from the international community

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

12000 year old archaeological site with monoliths, probably a religious site for hunter gatherers of the region

>>5590412
If you could bring someone from 12,000 years ago into the modern world as a baby, he would quickly become ill and die. Viruses and bacteria changed a lot over time.

>>5590453
So breastfeed the baby from a modern woman. The human immune system will take care of the rest.

>>5590453
This is retarded. They would not auto-die, maybe become a little ill n shit but nothing serious. You've watched too much War of the Worlds.

>>5590448

sure is joe rogen in here

>>5590272
It wasn't 2k deep when it was dropped there. Jesus is that hard? Do you even basic thinking?

>>5590470
1/10 see me after class

>>5590261
>useless for any real practical purpose
Counting time, marking stars and burying people. And of course, worshipping. (that is a pratical purpose.)
>we still have oil
American?

>>5589992
I imagine that when people like you are discussing about something with other people you use Epistemology as some sort of yugi oh cards, screaming "BURDEN OF PROOF I CHOOSE YOU" when someone makes a unsupported claim.

>>5589950
probably, they're are instances of quite advanced medicinal practices and what not.

Ancient india before the influx of the muslims had plastic surgery.

There is proof that Miyako Island in Japan had an master race civilization.

Japanese master race etc

>>5590532
>asians
>master is something but not being good
Pick 2.

>>5590488
>yugioh
>I choose you
No childhood confirmed

>>5590448
>Gobelki Tepe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igigi

Its because the Jews. We alreadu spoiled their lies about Egyptian exodus and Nazi camps in which they almost died. More primitive human rest show us that different cultures traded between each other among very distant places (shells necklace ).

>>5590618
>Young enough to watch yugioh as a kid
>Underageb&

>>5590618
>yougiohh

Not using magic cards as example.
I though kids were not allowed here.

>>5590672
Uh, yugioh came out when current early-twenty-somethings were in middle school.

>>5590646
>fuck the jwes

any advanced civilization that could have disappeared 10.000 bc would have left behind lots of junk, garbage and buildings behind.

i've read that the hoover dam can easily last 5000 years. the great pyramid could last millions of years.

so if there were ancient aliens and atlantians building up great cities and monuments... where are they?

>>5590724
there's stuff all around

but clearly you've never watched the history channel show about how stuff degrades over time. the majority of stuff we have right now will turn to dust in <1000 years, and there'll be no evidence that we existed.

>>5590742
ashes to ashes, dust to dust, sure, metal and glass.

but there are plenty things made out of highly durable cenemt types.

the things left behind on the moon will last forever.

>>5590724
The more advanced civilisations become the less permanent their structures and artefacts become.

This is why there is no evidence of the Kingdom of Dinosaurs, the very first space-faring civilisation, apart from the abandoned spaceship of Phobos

>>5590796
oh god, you just reminded me of that awfull episode of startrek voyager with the space dinosaur kingdom that came from earth.

less permanent structures with more advancement may be true, but civilizations dont go from caves straight to quantum computers.

>>5590802
Unless they find a crashed alien spaceship from the future

>>5590796
To be fair there could be evidence for dinosaur cities but they're buried so deep that it would be extremely hard to find them

>>5590213
The only thing I can think of when I see "OOPARTS" is that album by the Pillows.

What's sad is that there are so few good vids / images of bimini road / yonaguni that it's virtually impossible to make any sort of conclusion without being there.

Oak Island is actually another interesting one when you consider all the tunnels and shit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Island

Seriously, all the skeptics - put this shit on mute and watch it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDGUn6Nh4oM

Does that genuinely look like random rock formations to you, by any means? I mean, by just using your personal logic, would you EVER conclude those right angles are random? Especially the fucking cut in triangle and another protruding one just on top of it?

I am not saying aliens or anything, but just look at it.

>>5591002
>Does that genuinely look like random rock formations to you, by any means?
Yes, yes it does.

>>5591002
>>>/x/

>>5591002
From the wiki link someone posted earlier:

>Schoch observes that the sandstones that make up the Yonaguni formation "contain numerous well-defined, parallel bedding planes along which the layers easily separate. The rocks of this group are also criss-crossed by numerous sets of parallel and vertical (relative to the horizontal bedding planes of the rocks) joints and fractures. Yonaguni lies in an earthquake-prone region; such earthquakes tend to fracture the rocks in a regular manner."

>>5591005
>>5591006
>>5591013

1. Look at the triangle shit in pic related. How would one level erode in one direction like that, the other in another.

2. What about the archways? What about the "corridor" with the stairs. Note, I put it into quotes to signify that we don't know that it is one.

Also, where did the filling of the corridor go, just floated away?

Yea, yea, I know /x/ - but seriously, /sci/ can be as hard-headed as /x/ in terms of not being willing to think at all.

>>5591002
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDGUn6Nh4oM

>clicks link
> sees history channel logo
> automatically discredits

am i missing something?

>>5591023
I don't know how those were formed. I'm not a geologist, and all I have to work with is a youtube video.

But I'm not willing to make the leap from "I don't know how it was formed" to "humans did it", not when I know far more bizarre rock formations than this have occurred naturally.

>>5591029

You are not missing anything, that's why I told you to mute it. Look at the footage though.

>>5591035

I am not saying "humans did it," I am saying that triangle looks like an artificial formation, especially next to one that's fucking inverted. Makes no sense.

Ib4 you think I am claiming aliens or some shit.

>>5591029
>am i missing something?
Yes. The ability to think on your own.

>>5591043
>Ib4 you think I am claiming aliens or some shit.
You're going to have to clarify what you mean, then, because I don't understand how you could be saying "it looks artificial" but not be saying "humans did it."

Lots of things in nature look artificial but aren't. This is just one more example.

I'm sure these are natural formations too...

>>5591054

"While I am definitively saying that the structure is man made, the evidence warrants serious consideration of such a possibility."

Got it?

>Lots of things in nature look artificial but aren't. This is just one more example.

Like what?

Like sandstone concretions, or the Giant's Causeway. Here's a whole page of them: http://webecoist.momtastic.com/2009/07/22/18-natural-formations-that-look-man-made/

And okay, I see what you're saying, but while think it did at one time warrant serious consideration, I think the time for that consideration is done. I don't think we have enough evidence that it's worth considering human origin anymore.

Looks natural

>>5591071

Thank you for reading that correctly even though I forgot the "not" in there. Also, thanks for the link.

>>5591072
>pyramids in Bosnia

lel, some old roman buildings.

>>5591100

you ever been to Bosnia SON?

>>5591105
I am Bosnian, I've been there.
Yeah, there is some weird, forgotten and unknown culture there, but they are certainly not ancient aliens, or something older than Romans.

>>5591113
....

okay, done.

this board is far too literal and dense for any real discussion

I am so sorry

>>5591117

/sci/ seems to have the dumbest people short of soc and x

>>5591129
Have you ever been on /pol/ motherfucker

>>5591129
Damn, I don't even post here, I just reacted to his image of my homeland. Nothing else. I come from other imageboard culture where things do get taken literally. Even though he had some sarcasm in that post.

You guys are the dumb ones if you judge a whole board based on one or other newfriend posts.

It's possible. What of it? For all we know there may have been some sentient dinosaurs living a hunter-gatherer existence right at the end of the Cretaceous or even a little while after. So what? If they existed they didn't last or develop into anything big, as we can tell from the way ore deposits and oil layers were completely undisturbed when we found our way to them.

>>5590043
>Another doomsday calendar?

Another?
There has never been any doomsday calendar!

>>5591134

haha, no. Why would I go on pol?

>>5590010
>The absence of evidence doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Entropy and time destroy things eventually.

The absence of evidence DOES mean that you cannot say it did happen.
Evidence determines what you can say about something.

And, of course, it is ridiculous to imagine what things might have existed in spite of evidence and patterns surrounding it. We don't imagine technological civs predating our own for good reason.

>>5591105
>>5591117

>>5591023
>1. Look at the triangle shit in pic related. How would one level erode in one direction like that, the other in another.
That's specious -- you've seen regular-looking angles very often, in things that craze and crack.
Such events happen in rock, so the angle is hardly any reason to assume anything.

>2. What about the archways?
We've all seen rock arches happen -- the explanation is hardly complex.

>What about the "corridor" with the stairs. Note, I put it into quotes to signify that we don't know that it is one.
Neither are lava tubes deliberately-made tunnels. Nature opens paths for material.

>Also, where did the filling of the corridor go, just floated away?
All the paths of material have material move; there is nothing the least bit odd about material moving.

>>5591023
Let me suggest a problem I saw in the video:

The stepped layers all rise in the same direction, and to different degrees, with differently-sized steps.

That suggests natural weathering, not architecture.
No human structures make series of steps all going the same direction.
Human structures reveal both changes in direction and elevation -- progress, literally.
Humans also wouldn't make many differently-sized steps, particularly very large ones.

>>5589982

>>5590488

>>5590272
ogga bogga
dont thraw me out

>>5590470
you rang, silly bitch

>>5591061
>>5591054
>>5591043
>>5591035
aliens did it

>>5591350
I'm pretty sure it was ghosts.

>>5591295
>The stepped layers all rise in the same direction, and to different degrees, with differently-sized steps.

I do agree with this - they are not regularly stepped.

>>5591215
So you can wake up from your Jewish-Liberal brainwashing m8

>>5592259
>m8
automatically lost all credibility on all issues for the rest of eternity.

>>5591302
>>5591350

>>5592297
I jumped a little you fucker