/sci/ - Science & Math

>>5499118
engineering is babby tier

>>5499116
>Implying grabbing my nuts will make me anything I want

>>5499118
>Engineering mathematics
babby tier

>>5499118
Comp sci has the same science requirements as most engineering majors.. and engineers barley program.

>>5499116

comp sci if you want a job as a code monkey 60k starting

econ isn't that marketable
I have econ degree and I work in insurance now, it's okay, money is decent I guess

but I realize all jobs/careers are soul draining wastes of time--

What you need to figure out is how to make enough money to retire early, working 9-5 anywhere is terrible, no man should have to suffer wage labor and gainful employment

>>5499118
Take your elitist bullshit, and go somewhere else.

This type of idea is a cancer that slows and destroys discovery, innovation, and science.

>>5499118

Why would you save this?

OP, double major. You'll be indispensable and have something to show off for the rest of your life.

>>5499128
OP here..

Yeah man thats what im afraid of..
>Being stuck in a 9-5

If i double major maybe i could go into some kind of financial engineering. Which would seem to be more interesting than being a paper pusher.

>>5499128
On your note about computer science: NO. This is absolutely incorrect.

Programming is an essential tool in CS, but it is not the career of one. This is like saying looking through microscopes all day is the career of a biologist, or telescopes for astronomers. Nope.

Stop giving advice about things you are not informed about.

>>5499128
>>5499136
Software Engineering and IT would be code monkeys

>>5499136
Whats your advice for me anon. Seems like you've been in the comp sci field for a while.

>>5499136
>Programming is an essential tool in CS, but it is not the career of one.

The real world does not give a shit about your CS theory. They want coders

That is what comp sci majors get hired as. Yes they usually suck at coding because their programs don't teach enough of it. This is irrelevant.

You will be hired as a coder in 90% of cases with a comp sci degree.

Stop deluding yourself into thinking a company will hire you to analyze logical proofs or write theories about artificial intelligence and data structures.

They want coders.

>>5499134

>finance engineering interesting

90% of them are programmers.

Well that's a bit incorrect, I should say 100% of them are programmers. Their jobs are tedious and super competitive and usually require PHDs now.

their field is also shifting towards algo analysis and not much independent work.

>>5499136

this. Com. sci. is a math, logic, and an overall problem solving degree. Software Engineers are more of a code monkey than cs majors.

Also, cs is the third most "valuable" major. Engineers are just so butt-hurt their "hard work" doesn't pay as much as a cs major. Moreover, majority of the people that made significant difference in the computer world are cs majors.

>>5499141

Dont listen to his advice, He doesn't know the real world of comp sci careers.

He's a 1st year major at best with delusions of grandeur.

Comp sci majors get hired as code monkeys 99.999% of the time.

>>5499137
Software engineers spend a shit-ton of time collaborating between teams, and translating ideas into computational frameworks. Most often fueled by logic and systems. Then the rest of the time is putting those elements together into carefully constructed programs.

IT is such an all encompassing field of work, I can't comment on it.

>>5499148
>is. Com. sci. is a math, logic, and an overall problem solving degree

That's what the degree is. That is not what you get hired for.

After 4 years of interesting logic puzzles get ready to be a code monkey in a cubicle.

You 1st year freshmen are really deluded lol

>>5499154
>>5499149
>>5499146

This.

>>5499154

That delusion is what gets us through life aha.


I always thought STEM majors should run for politics. They are reasonable people, educated and understand the importance of logic and the bigger picture. Then I realized, nope, we are all just a bunch of elitist fucks trying to prove to one another that we are better than each other and how babby's firs step each of our majors/studies are. Heh.

Soo should i double major or go to grad school for econ?

What would be optimal?

>>5499154
>>5499149

I'm going to assume that these two posts are written by the same person, and I respond:

Stop your spouting of "Delusions of grandeur" bullshit. You can sit and whine to others all you want about what you THINK Computer Science is as a whole in practice, but if you had the experience and education of a CS graduate, you would understand what is the TRUE.

As >>5499148 said, it is a problem solving degree. It might as well be called Computational Science, or Computational Mathematics, because really, it is all logic and math. I am doing the exact same job as most engineers and mathematicians with my CS degree, and I love it.

So, FUCK OFF with your uninformed ideas, and stop acting like you are trying to prove something.

>>5499171

stay in academia as long as you can op.
enjoy the relaxtion, time off, and no work.

Stay out of the private job market as long as you can; it's utterly disgusting.

They make you wake up at a certain time. You have a schedule to follow 5days a week, sometimes they'll call you in on saturdays. You have to listen to your boss.

Even though I just surf the net for fun 70% of my job, I still detest it. The fact that I have to wake up at a certain time, look presentable, shave, wear a suit and drive to work during rush hour is atrocious.

Why did I ever leave University?!!?!!!

I should go back and just get a bunch of Phds, live off grad funding until I die

>>5499171
OP, I would recommend going with the CS BS, and get a minor in econ. Go onto grad school for economics, and your expertise in logic and mathematics from CS will propel you into a pretty great career.

>>5499174

Strong delusions.

>>5499174

This is about as retarded as a Philosophy major believing someone will pay him to philosophize and do ontological proofs when he graduates with his bachelors.

Hilarious

>>5499180
Your trolling will get you nowhere.

Defend your argument, and give me some actual coherent evidence behind the spouting of your favorite word, "Delusions."

>>5499179
After this semester ill be 1 class from having my Econ Degree.. The rest is Extra Credits.. So i might as well double major. And thank you for the advice.

>>5499188
>Defend your argument,

Do a job search on Indeed.com that look for Comp Sci degrees.

99% are just code monkey jobs of some sort, where you won't use any math beyond high school algebra.

>>5499177

Are you serious man? What's your major? There are a lot of start-ups that don't pay as much, however their work schedule is flexible. Of course the work is demanding, however, it all pays off because you get to be involved in a smaller community, have better experience for your resume and get to know about start-ups. Give Y-Combinator's HN a try.

To be honest, I can't wait till I finish my degrees and get out to the industry. I'm doing a double major in pure mathematics and computer science and I also have work terms in between, so it's going to be another 3-4 years until I can work.

>>5499183
I find it just as hilarious that your ideas of what those majors are, seems to be based on only the introductory classes. Seriously? Ontological proofs? Philosophize? Hahaha! Please end this headache of a conversation. Seriously. I'm heading to rest. I suggest you do the same. And when you wake up tomorrow, begin researching what computer science and philosophy jobs really are... after you get some rest.

>>5499196

I'm arguing about where these majors lead, not about what you learn during the 4 years.

Clearly you have no idea of the job market or reality.

Yes Philosophy majors do all sorts of neat proofs and study crazy arguments about transcendental apperception of time and space...

They won't be doing any of this in the jobs they are likely to get. Same goes for comp sci majors, they will just do basic code monkey shit all their lives.

>>5499193

Indeed.com? You mean the first job searching website that shows up for CS degrees, and is full of shit-pay jobs by shit companies?

Seriously? You're basing your assumptions of what the entire field of computer science is... on THAT?

Refer to my post, >>5499196

>>5499201

Are your certainties based on personal experience? Is that what happened to you? Did you graduate in CS and Philosophy, and ended up doing both fields, where you found out what "job market" and "reality" really are?

>>5499200

Yes those shit jobs are the future of CS majors. But they do pay pretty well for being a code monkey 40-50k/yr.

What were you expecting? 90k a year at google doing something advanced?

Lol

>>5499211
No, I'm expecting more of doing analysis and data mining of biological implants in a neuroscience research foundation for 100k. Wait, that's the job I have lined up for this summer.

AWESOME

>>5499212

I have dbl major in Phil and Econ, minor in Comp sci

I've done a lot of research on the job market because of my interest in Econ and I have tons of friends who graduated as comp sci majors and some of them work for my insurance company now doing programming

so ya, I kinda know wtf is going on

>>5499214
Hooooold on a second. Your minor in computer science and hiring up CS majors for your INSURANCE company doing only PROGRAMMING gives you the right to judge what EVERY SINGLE CS MAJOR DOES FOR THEIR CAREER?

>>5499215

>100k summer job

yep, your anecdote is definitely the "average" of what CS majors can expect...

also data mining is for statisticians, without a masters in stats be prepared for some fucken 1st year babby tier regression analysis

actual econ grad here. I work in the policy area or my state (energy policy) No need to finish comp sci degree. a bonus if you can, but no need.

>>5499219

I don't own the insurance company.

I'm not judging every CS Major, god damn freshmen can't fucken read or think logically...

Listen moron. I'm saying on average the CS degree leads to being a code monkey. I'm saying this based on job statistics by gov research and average starting salaries that reflect being a code monkey, and the fact that being a code monkey is one of the highest in demand jobs for STEM majors...and they tend to hire CS majors more than anyone else.

Sure there are exceptional cases. There are welders who make 120k a year, and there are CS majors who do interesting research for 120k a year or own their own companies and make millions...blabalbal

But the average, the most likely outcome of a CS major is being a code monkey. You won't get to use analysis or any interesting math, you'll just code in different languages for employers and do bug testing and so forth.

>>5499225
>I work in the policy area or my state

Cuz those jobs are so plentiful and easy to get, right?

>>5499194
>pure mathematics and computer science

Was it hard? I've been thinking of going this route. I'm starting college this Fall.

>>5499228

You're pretty damn adamant about using the educational tier as an insult. It's far from the truth, but I wonder why you use that?

Also,

>some of them work for my insurance company...
>I don't own the insurance company

Huh?

Anyways. I'm just going to go now. I don't think we benefit from debating any further. Have a good day, evening, or night.

>>5499229
They are if you do the right things.

>>5499230

As much as many of these /sci/entist would like to deny it... CS and Math are very closely related. Doing a CS & Math double major makes so much sense as most of the content intertwine.

>>5499241

doing the right things doesn't increase their supply.

If only you took

>>5499240

>You're pretty damn adamant about using the educational tier as an insult

It's what the data show. Programming jobs are the most abundant for CS majors and code monkey is the job title most will get, and by most I mean over 90%.


>>some of them work for my insurance company...
>I don't own the insurance company

>Huh?

You are confused easily.

When you get out of high school hopefully your reading comprehension will improve and you will be able to understanding that the word "my" doesn't necessarily imply ownership.

>>5499264
I was commenting on the easy to get part I suppose. You are half right.

economics.

>>5499253
That's a filthy lie

>>5499116
that dude has those thin "I'm gay" lips. Is he gay? Seems gay. Gay guys in porn always have that kind of face for some reason.

Science > Economics
any day.

You are more useful to society, and you make more money as a scientist than as an economist. Not to mention it's also more fun.

If you are a retard who can't science, then pick economics.

>>5499272
I think a more accurate statement would've been. CS includes a lot of mathematics.

>>5499130
Actually this is true, and if you are good at writing code for Stata or R you will be the most popular person in your future potential Econ grad program. Especially if you want to go into computational stuff like numerically solving equilibria.

>>5499314
Someone's just jelly about 'dat causal identification.

Computer Science you faggot.

Don't be a pussy, do real math.

captcha: financial math is Kindergarten math

(true fact)

>>5499329
Yes, he will afford more jelly than the unemployed, over-abundant economics majors whose jobs can be replaced by a 16 year old and some free time.

>>5499316
Not that much to be honest, and it's a different kind of mathematics.
You won't be studying geometry or analysis.

Mathematics involved in theoretical CS is combinatorics, especially graph theory and recurrence theory.

>>5499340
At my University we do a lot of heavy math.

>>5499333
>comp sci
>"real math" compared to economics

I think I just shat myself laughing, Anon, thank you for that.

>>5499314
>You are more useful to society
naw
>>5499116
>and you make more money as a scientist than as an economist
definitely not
>>5499116
>Not to mention it's also more fun.
nice try

>>5499341
Economics is highschool math, feel free to read about it.

>>5499346
Biased? Biased. Check your facts.

>>5499348
I invite you to the world of theoretical econometrics.

>>5499353
I did, I'm a first year econ grad. I am the facts

>>5499341
Generally, the math involved in computer science can be pretty intense, while the machinery is usually not very advanced.
Economics is still stuck in the early 1900s in terms of mathematics involved, from what I've heard it's PDEs and basic linear algebra at best. There was some stuff about utilizing the tools of topology in the stable equilibrium theory I've read, but I don't think that took off properly

>>5499339
Your evident ignorance of what actually goes on in mathematical economics is leading me to believe you are severely mad due to possibly failing the fuck out of a principles/intro course and never actually reaching the math part.

Seriously, you sound like an asshurt anthropologist.

>>5499357
>from what I've heard it's PDEs and basic linear algebra at best.
Unless solving systems of stochastic PDES are counted as easy nowadays, then I would say you heard wrong.

What's with all this repetitive nonsense about "oooh if you go CS you are gonna be a code monkey." You sound like freaking parrots with this "code monkey" crap over and over. As someone who has been in computer software for 25 years and is still actively in the game, let me put this "code monkey" thing in the ground.

Programming is a hell of a lot of fun if you do it right. You don't need to be a fool who goes to work for a 2500-person company writing some trivial, pointless code for unappreciative asses (unless you are one of these fakers who are flat-out stupid and barely scraping by in school to get their diploma.)

Learn web coding, hook up with your local hacker groups and entrepreneurial scene, go to hackfests and educational nights, improve your skills, and get yourself into a startup company while you are young, can live cheaply, and don't have a wife and kids and a house bogging you down.

It's not about money -- sure you might hit the big time, or get some lucrative contract work, or decide to take a regular salary job with an interesting company -- but it's about learning with the best, challenging yourself, contributing to open source projects, building your reputation, networking in your area, and having fun.

In my area there are contract programming groups who are taking on apprentices -- guys who want to learn web coding and may or may not have a programming background, and after they have taught them they give them paying jobs with clients, give them advice and support, do pair-programming sessions to help improve their skills, and can open a lot of doors. There are great hacker scenes in many major cities -- if you don't have one where you are, go someplace else!

>>5499344
Define "heavy math"? Mathematics evolved quite heavily after 1900s. To be considered a mathematician, one should know basics of analysis (real and complex), topology, algebra (group, ring, field theory) and geometry (differential and algebraic), and have good knowledge of one's own field.
While there's a lot of cool math in CS, it's not exactly the same kind of mathematics.

>>5499367
It may be difficult in particular cases, but it's not exactly at the pinpoint of current mathematical research, is it?

>>5499348
...If you went to High School at MIT, maybe?

Seriously, people who hate on econ for *not having enough/hard enough math* are in fact the ignorant retards in any situation, because they clearly have no fucking idea what anything related to econometrics or math-econ is about.

I really am starting to think it's just the small population of sciences students who were actually too stupid to make it past Principles.

>>5499357
>Economics is still stuck in the early 1900s in terms of mathematics involved, from what I've heard it's PDEs and basic linear algebra at best. There was some stuff about utilizing the tools of topology in the stable equilibrium theory I've read, but I don't think that took off properly

LOOOOOOOOOOL!

Are all hard-sciences majors this bone-headed and ignorant? It would explain why econophysics is such a shitfest.

Let's put it this way, if you can't even do a dynamic programming problem, you can't get an economics Ph.D. from pretty much any top30 institution, unless you cheat.

>>5499368
so that goes for CS majors, what kind of jobs do post-grad CS students get?

>>5499374
I don't know. I don't study pure math. I'm a first year econ grad. But then again, some mathematical principles are useless in economics. We have very little use for algebraic geometry and other sorcery. It's not about how "hard" it is, it's about being able to connect the mathematical theory to what we observe. That is what matters. Anyway, I find systems of stochastics hard to solve.

>>5499386
You're saying that as if dynamic programming is some kind of voodoo magic, and wasn't invented in the 1940s by mathematicians.

>>5499403
No, I'm giving you what is generally considered the bottom of the expectations barrel.

You seem depressingly out of touch with what is easily the most quantitative "social" science, I'm just trying to bring you into the real world.

>>5499394
Well, it's not for someone to decide which area of math will be used where. Algebraic geometry is widely applied in theoretical physics right now, who knows, maybe someone will be able to unite economics with that subject, which is beautiful and meaningful on its own terms.

>>5499415
You're doing a pretty shitty job of convincing anyone. The tools economists use are dated and long abandoned by even statisticians, who are the black sheep of mathematics community.
It's like if there was a branch of computer scientists still proud of researching the semantic power of COBOL.

>>5499417
I'm sure it is. And maybe such a day will come. I love the theory and things like that simply for brain masturbation. I'm sure one day even more advanced topics will come into economics and physics.

>>5499390
I am at Stanford so this is not entirely representative, but the answer is really awesome high paying jobs.

Everything really cool and exciting, like self-driving cars, computer vision, neural networks, and doing stuff on distributed systems, needs a PhD.

Master's also lead to very interesting jobs, though not quite as specialized.

>>5499421
How do you know any of that? Tell me why you think this?

>>5499421
Who should I be convincing? If you don't know, that really is your problem. But when people say that economics requires "high-school level" or "19th century" math, that's laughably bullshit and so ignorant that it does make me wonder if the person posting it would even be capable of passing econometrics.

As for these "tools" you nondescriptly speak of, I'd love to know, because I don't know if there are any statisticians around who don't have a healthy and appreciable respect for sharp economists like James Heckman.

I mean, it would be one thing if I were wrong. However, I'm not, and since this isn't a Literary Criticism class where the answer is ambiguous and open for interpretation. Anyone who makes the statement that economists use "19th century" methods or "high-school level" anything are, simply, wrong. Incorrect. Sadly misinformed. Et cetera.

>>5499442
Hey where do you go to school? Are you a grad student? I don't see many economists on this board. Or maybe there used to be? I just found out about his place like 3 days ago.

>>5499448
>Are you a grad student?

Yes.

I assume there aren't many econ students here because most people who talk about economics in the internet are far more interested in mises.org and crap like that than actual economics.

>>5499456
It's because they can't do math.

>>5499456
Cool. I don't know about this either. It seems that from this thread that those who don't know are the quickest to make assumptions or keep their memories from what econ was like in high school. Whatever though. I really only go here for some laughs. Other sites are much more suited for research and discussion for math. I assume the site is mostly populated with high school people and some undergrads.

>>5499462
I'm pretty sure most economists (Ph.D. and up) can "do math" as well as anyone else on this board. The range of math and statistics that is applicable to economics is far less than other sciences, especially natural sciences, like physics.

The evidence was pretty clearly on the wall when a bunch of smug physicists tried "doing economics right" and ended up creating such an abominable abortion that it could only be described with a straight face as "performance art."

>>5499456
>most people who talk about economics in the internet are far more interested in mises.org and crap like that than actual economics.
Also /pol/, who would call you a Keynesian jew shill for calling mises crap

>>5499465
I think you're right. Just go to the other thread about asteroid mining and watch as the monkeys fail at thinking about even the most basic economic ideas.

>>5499490
I think that guy (>>5499462 ) meant that the people who are more interested in mises.org are the ones who can't do math.

I'm also an Econ PhD.
>The evidence was pretty clearly on the wall when a bunch of smug physicists tried "doing economics right" and ended up creating such an abominable abortion that it could only be described with a straight face as "performance art."
Can you provide a link, that sounds like the sort of thing that would be both interesting and amusing for me.

>>5499505
>Keynesian jew

That one honestly made me laugh, Anon. It would either be that, or screaming "STATIST SCUM" while frothing at the mouth.

Honestly though, Mises kiddies are like the creepy deformed cyclops-child that economics keeps in its basement. Every few decades something will shake up and they will find a way out. 2008 has been one long, unending headache for shit like that.

>>5499516
>I think that guy (>>5499462 ) meant that the people who are more interested in mises are the ones who can't do math.

You're probably right, actually.

Anyway, EconomicLogic actually does some coverage of econophysics if you go to the blog and search for it. I tried posting links but 4chan got mad at me.

>>5499526
I wonder why Mises/anarcho-capitalist economics is thought of that way, though. The only reason I remember from /pol/ threads is because they don't use real maths or evidence

>>5499559
Long story short, they have a very old beef with empiricism, and very few of those types of economists will engage in empirical work.

It's interesting because Peter Schiff is an asset manager who buys into that craponomics and *tries* investing. I don't think anyone seriously gives a shit about Euro-Pacific Capital (his group) though.

>>5499554
Thanks, looks interesting.

From what I've seen, both sides suffer from similar problems: you can get any result you like using econophysics agent models, and you can get any result using traditional rational-agent/general equilibrium models.

I am TA'ing a course on health econ and it is kind of embarrassing how every empirical paper has a "theory" section that we basically ignore.

>>5499573
See, by me, theory really ain't so bad-- however I may have a bias, as some of the research I have been enjoying lately is the design of markets and auctions for water concessions/rights for areas that are suffering from a scarcity of it.

It's a niche little area where traditional micro theory does a great job of explaining why that area of policy is such a wretched mess.

>>5499574
>very few of those types of economists
It'd be interesting to see those people

>>5499605
If you're genuinely curious to see some of the work they do, hit up faculty pages at George Mason University and Auburn. Between those two institutions, most of >those types

>>5499605
>>5499574

I study math/econ in school. I always thought econ has a weird place in academia. Economics doesnt try to pretend to be anything, so, you can get away with quite a lot. There are a lot of really great economists who are just good mathematicians, and they only do theoretical work. Complaining they arent empirical doesnt even touch them because it was just math from the start. On the other hand, you could be an old dude who is really libertarian and doesnt do any real work, and you are just as much as an economist. These two people could have offices next to each other.

Finish Econ
Learn R,SAS,and SQL
Fuck Comp Science, shit is useless and filled with professor who rail on about Assembly.
Claim you understand Big Data or something as well. It's a buzz word thrown around by Mckinsey/Bain faggots who think they understand tech because they hired people that actually understand tech.

>>5499613
Checked George Mason's Economics faculty page
>http://economics.gmu.edu/people/full_time_faculty
Only Peter J Boettke, Donald J Boudreaux, Christopher Coyne, and Virgil Storr seem to be obviously anarcho-capitalists. The guy with Adam Smith listed I'm wary on since someone on /pol/ said people who fixate on Smith aren't really 'legit' as opposed to people who like Friedrich Hayek.

And I wish there were a way to see what they work on besides books.

>>5499490

What kind of jobs can you get with an Econ degree?

Does it hurt that I'm going to a below-average tier school?

Glorious Austrian School!

>>5499526
>2008 has been one long, unending headache for shit like that.
Nice to know we keep you thinking.

>>5499116
Can you take enough courses to finish the minor (I imagine you're close) and then apply for a masters in CS or math-y finance (financial engineering or quantitative finance are the typical names)? What math do you have done?