/sci/ - Science & Math

How dare you oppress that woman.

Hey OP, I'll soon have an MS in biology. Hire me please, I can easily pass all your exams and I'm great in the lab.

>>5482438
Unfortunately we cannot afford an MS in this position. Sorry.

>We asked her to do a simple calculation using molarity of a solution to determine how many grams of something dissolved was in a milliliter of the solution.

Holy fuck. That's AS-level tier shit there.

>>5482443
What's an "MS salary"?

How difficult is it to convince an employer that despite being overqualified, I am genuinely happy starting out with a BS salary so long as I get to work in a lab environment free from the distractions of academia (like courses)?

>>5482405
lrn2go OP
That move offends me

>>5482459

this. I'd be happy if people weren't this retarded and realized that we need jobs too.

>>5482472

hy does that move offend you, white now has a clear disadvantage. would you attack on the third turn? (although the question remains what the fuck white was trying to accomplish)

>>5482475
It's not retarded. You hire a 70k guy for 40k, he'll leave you a year later when he finds a 70k job.

>>5482482
>what the fuck white was trying to accomplish
Symmetry?

>>5482483
>implying he finds a 70k job

>>5482459
I understand your frustration but from our point of view, an overqualified individual will only be using us to bide their time until they can move on to something more suited to their level of education. Therefore the risk is much higher, even if it seems intuitively that we should jump at the chance to hire an overqualified individual.

>>5482472
I hope you're trolling. B is Go Seigen, if you don't know this game I suggest you look it up, it's a really exciting game. (First pro game I memorized actually.)

I'm presuming america?
I'm currently doing A2 chemistry and calculations involving moles is pretty much considered on the same level as being able to form coherent sentences, if you cant do them you are mentally challenged.

Anyways, right now i am studying Aromatic chemistry and previously ive done rates, entropy, optical isomerism, quite a lot of organic chem, titrations, acids etc. also gonna do some stuff on transition elements and organic synthesis later on (really looking forward to the latter)

>>5482459
The problem is not whether you'd be happy with a BS salary, the problem is that you're probably going to jump ship as soon as you find someone who will give you more, which means they just wasted weeks to months training your deadbeat ass.

>>5482492
My question was, what would it take for you to become convinced that an overqualified individual does not have this intention?

>>5482502
Good question, actually. I've often wondered this myself, as I someday soon hope to move down into a position where I'm overqualified in order to reduce stress. I have no answer, unfortunately.

OP, what level are you talking about?

In high school, we didn't really do labs. Our "labs" involved wrapping plastic wrap around some old textbooks and putting drops of dilute-as-fuck chemicals on it and looking at things like indicator dye color changes and gas production.

In college, we had actual teaching labs, but it was mostly just basic hands-on techniques stuff and probably most everyone forgot it as soon as they handed in their lab report.

Biology is even worse than chemistry, I think. The only reason I came out of undergrad knowing how to do anything in a bio lab was because I did undergrad research all four years.

>>5482443
>>5482459
So OP, you haven't replied yet. What is a typical salary for an MS in your area (would be nice if you said what area)?

>>5482499
> on the same level as being able to form coherent sentences
This was my thought. I figure the question wasn't even elementary but rudimentary. It was surprising that it caused some troubles.

To be sure, we actually didn't give her enough information to solve the problem. She needed to ask us what the molecular weight of the compound was. But as far as questions go it seemed like the ultimate softball for a lab chemist.

>>5482512
undergraduate

> it was mostly just basic hands-on techniques stuff and probably most everyone forgot it as soon as they handed in their lab report.
This is the pattern we are seeing. I think your lab experience will mean a lot for you.

>>5482510

so basically you enforce upon others what you wish not to be done unto you.

a respectable human being you are indeed.

>>5482523
I am not in charge of hiring. I wasn't even present at the interview. My "we" is the royal one.

>>5482521
You'd need to check the occupational outlook handbook and dig into their regional statistics to get a feel but we're in eastern MA and there is a lot of competition in the area which drives salaries up.

>>5482543
I know how to independently do my own research. I was curious about your opinion.

Obviously there's no reason why you'd bother helping me, but should you feel generous, can you give me some advice on how to get a lab job?

I'll soon start a PhD program in biology at a decent school (not top 10 but definitely top 30). Should I just start looking for jobs right away, expecting to drop out? Should I finish the PhD? What areas are good to focus on these days? What non-obvious skills etc can I gain to maximize my chances?

OP where are you from? And what's the position?

I'm studying chemistry right now and I feel that's there a real big gap between people that want to do research and those that just want the diploma and a good paying job. Those with that want the good paying job know NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, that's not in the books. And they even forget the shit that's in the books as soon as the test ends. Don't get me started on the lab work, they're just following orders having no idea what they're doing.

The people that want to do research on the other hand can do that simple test in 5 seconds in their head, because they're actively working with the subject outside classes. They are doing courses years ahead on their own (badly without the knowledge of the former subjects, but it still shows motivation and learns other skills). Those are the people you want, if you want to attract them market it as research position with freedom. The quality of applicants will probably go up.

Also, how's the job market for research positions in chemistry? Do chemists generally get to do drone work like engineers or are they more in the RnD fields?

>>5482472

Let me guess, double digit kyu?

I can't speak much of chem OP but from what I remember in HS those kind of questions where the think where majority was spent on. Grads should be more then competent


Off topic but does /sci/ enjoy go, or most of you just chess fans?

>>5482593
>The people that want to do research [...] can do that simple test in 5 seconds [...] because they're actively working with the subject outside classes. [...] Those are the people you want, if you want to attract them
"Working outside classes on their own" is already covered by work experience. I'm amazed that OP claims they had people who couldn't do these basic things, either they could and were just nervous at the interview, or his company actually interviewed people with no work experience (why?).

>>5482561
I'm sorry, but I am not a chemist, I just work with them, so there is a practical limit to what I can advise. I will give you my opinion but please take it with that grain of salt.

I can just say what we're looking for. 1) people who have rudimentary lab skills. 2) people that are interested. But we're hiring bachelor-degreed people, not masters or PhDs. A Bachelor's degree is a license to learn; there is no way you will know anything about what we're doing out of school so rudimentary capabilities and interest are all we can reasonably expect.

If you're already slated to start a PhD program I'd say don't change it, but if you're not accepted yet I'd say take a year to work in a related field before your education level gets too high. A PhD is a huge investment and you might want to be sure you're on the right track, if you catch my drift, but if you're already there best to stick with it.

As far as the salary thing goes, again, I'm not doing the actual hiring I can only relay what has been said and we look for recent grads because that's what we can afford for the position. Sorry, you seem a bit let down by it, I wasn't trying to be obscure on purpose.

Sometimes you fuck things up.

I spent a couple years of college thinking molarity was (moles solute)/(liters solvent).

Felt like an enormous dumbass when I realized my mistake.

>>5482617
I meant working in as an actual paying job, but just being busy with chemistry in your own free time.

It's a fucking shame though that being a graduated chemist isn't a mark of quality anymore.

>>5482634
>I meant working in NOT as in an actual paying job, but just being busy with chemistry in your own free time.

>>5482633
isn't that was it is though?

oh god

>>5482634
>It's a fucking shame though that being a graduated chemist isn't a mark of quality anymore.
It's because for a lot of people, going to college has stopped being about "the thing you do to become a specialist" and has become "highschool 2.0".

Probably a good 3/4ths of the people graduating with a STEM degree from colleges these days aren't going to touch their degree's material for the rest of their lives.

>>5482634
>>5482640
If you mean having a chemistry lab in your garage, you can't really do that anymore. It's not the 1950s.

If you mean volunteering at a lab, that's covered by work experience.

>>5482644
It's (moles solute)/(liters solution).

It doesn't actually make a huge difference, because for most of the shit you need to do, the solute has a negligible impact on volume. The only situation where it becomes tricky is if you're dissolving a LOT of something in your solution, and even then usually it's expressed as %v/v or %w/v, not molarity.

>>5482647
I do have a chemistry lab in my garage. There's a whole forum full of people with chemistry labs in their garage.(sciencemadness.org) Also, you become a better chemist if you just actively work with the subject matter everyday, solving problems for fun etc.

I'm not that far in my study yet, but going from your tone I should probably be volunteering very fast for some substantial things on my CV.

>>5482653
oh goodness, thank you so much
that's fucked up

>>5482647
>If you mean having a chemistry lab in your garage, you can't really do that anymore. It's not the 1950s.

why not, with household robotics becoming more and more accessible I imagine competitive home labs should be blooming again.

>>5482658
We don't hire temps but some of our customers do. The market for chemists is pretty bad right now overall (for the employees, not the employers), but this actually works in your favor if you're interested in temp or temp-to-hire chem work.

If you mean undergrad level, I do 9 hours of lab work a week. Mixture of organic and inorganic synthesis, analytical and physical chemistry.

>>5482668
you're fucking hired

>>5482665
They're not really competitive in anyway. It's more of a hobby, because you need very, very expensive equipment to get experiments done that you need for quality publications.

There's still some superfun and inventive things being done. The synthesis of metallic potassium from over the counter products without electrochemical equipment is a beauty.

>>5482658
You can't do anything substantial these days. The equipment needed is too elaborate. Many chemicals (and just running your "lab") may be illegal. It's so expensive that if you can afford to do really interesting experiments, you don't even need a job.

If by garage chemistry you mean distilling the alcohol out of vodka, sure you can run some monstrously inefficient protocol, but the fact is that's so distant from the setup in an industrial lab that it won't translate into a useful job skill.

Some HR guy might be "impressed by your enthusiasm", but that's the same as him being impressed by your stamp collection or thinking your tits are cute (if you're a chick). It has very little to do with your competence at the job.

>>5482684
I'm not saying that having a home chemistry lab gets you hired, I'm saying that it makes you a better chemist. Just like studying outside your courses makes you a better chemist. OP post is about why so many chemists are crappy.

Just like the people doing math and physics problems on /sci/ are probably above average engineers and physicists.

I'm not expecting to be hired on enthusiasm alone.

>My yields and purity are 10% above everybody else, and I'm almost always the first to finish an actual synthesis.

>>5482700
If you have so much free time, why not just volunteer at a real lab?

>>5482748
I periodically have a lot of free time, and I don't think I will get hired for 2-3 weeks at a time. I also don't know any labs outside of my uni. There's a water treatment facility nearby that needs help, I can always try. I'm 19 though, so I don't think it will work.

> mfw: it sucks to not get hired due to lack of experience. Since i am not hired i do not ever gain experience in the workforce. should i start out flipping patties?

I'm 19 and second year undergrad, can I get hired?

>>5482405
budget cuts killed every chemistry lab from NYC to San Fran

My first real chemistry class was in college.

We are falling behind in international competition (academic and industrial) because primary and secondary education lack rigorous science education

I did not major in chemistry but took some organic, it was mainly predicting the main product of a reaction with a large focus on the behavior of aldehydes .... These concepts are not extremely difficult and are BETTER taught at a younger age ...... Science and Math are a language, we should teach kids more complex science and math at a younger age like they do with Spanish these days

I cant sell Spanish, but I can sell chemicals (breaking good not bad). Why is the USA F'ing themselves over? BECAUSE SCHOOLS ARE CONTROLLED BY LIBERAL ARTS MAJORS WHO THINK READING SHAKESPEARE IS A GOOD EDUCATION .... CHEMIST GRADS KNOW THAT CHEM IN PRIMARY/SECONDARY GETS NEXT TO NO FUNDING OR ATTENTION BY SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS AND STUDENTS ARE CONVINCED IT IS BORING BEFORE THEY EVEN TRY IT SO WHY BOTHER TEACHING IF YOU ARE GOOD AT CHEM.

thats my 2 cents

>>5482838
>I cant sell Spanish
You can sell Spanish, to any company that works with Spanish speakers.

>>5482838
Maybe. As I said, high school was some time ago for me. I'd hate to think my education was stellar compared to today, but god damn, I just told my mom what the question was, she was a fucking art major, and her first question was, "What's molarity?" When I told her she answered the question correctly.

This is seriously depressing shit.

Undergrad here. I have instrumental analysis lab, which so far has been a lot of calibration curves and unknown analysis. I also have second sem organic lab, which is basically all just random synths. Did some grignard today and it was alright. They teach us to use our 300MHz NMR and we run IR all the time, etc. Had quant lab last semester, so titrations and related mathematical problems are like second nature at this point. Going to have p-chem and that lab next year, along with biochem + lab. Also doing research synthing silicone-stereogenic organosilanes for a prof on campus currently.

You must live in a shitty area for chemists. I feel like my school is really trying to prep us for real world work before we get there.

>>5482838
When you have to control and afford the highest military in the world there isn't much room to force education downs kid throats. Kids today are completely fucked unless they themselves put in the effort in to learn important shit. The money just isn't there from the gov't like other countries, even though Americans have to pay an arm and a leg for it

Its stupid really, but such is America

>>5482405
>implying most students take classes seriously anymore
Note I said most, and not all. I mean seriously, some students in my current chem class will probably forget the material after the test. C'est la vie OP. So, I wouldn't blame professors or teaching, even though my professor is not the best teacher. Students in my class have shit attitudes towards learning for the most part and fail to internalize the material.

tl;dr: Most, not all students, see Chemistry as an obstacle in their academic path.

>>5483201

Its generally the western mindset revolved around education, its honestly sickening. There is more focus around the "school experience" then the education itself.

Sure the west suicide rates are much lower then lets say China or Japan, but at least they don't have generations of retards who can't even do simple mathematics

>>5483206
I absolutely agree with the idea of "the school experience/the college experience." Of course, we all know what that entails. People at my university seem to waste time with senseless activities while some students truly do what one is supposed to do while in college, study. The former results in individuals that were described by OP.

in case anyone is wondering about the game in OP
http://senseis.xmp.net/?GameOfTheCentury

When is it too late to get involved in undergraduate research?

I just started my fourth semester of college and I'm starting to panic because I've accomplished absolutely nothing during my time here.

>>5483173
>>5483201
>>5483206
>>5483211
I'm glad to hear there's plenty of folks out there that find this horrible, but this is a /sci/ence board. Of course statistically it is impossible to draw any conclusions from such a sample but it's depressing as fuck.

I feel real bad for the girl, in a way. Found out this evening that she graduated last year. She's been looking for work for a year. Well, no surprise, given that she flubbed such a softball, but still. It's sad to think about all the money spent on a degree she got absolutely nothing out of.

>>5482405
I never learned any chemistry in high-school.
>and not a single fuck was given all those years

>>5483231

>fourth semester

learn something first

>>5483173
You got to actually use an NMR machine?

They just had us prep samples and then I'm 99% sure they threw them out and gave us all a generic spectra.

>>5483231
It is NEVER too late to get involved. Any experience helps.

I would say that as long as you get started before your junior year, you're in a good position. It'll take at least six months before they'll give you a real project and you stop washing dishes and prepping media, and you should try to get at least a year of good research experience out of it.

>>5483269
I use it a decent amount, actually. We are required to use it for chem major organic lab (we have two lower levels of the same classes for bio/bms/cmb majors), and we will be having a lab practical that running a sample will be part of soon. I also use it pretty frequently for research. I also pretty frequently run GCMS and IR, use q roto vap, run columns/TLC plates, occasionally use a polarimiter, play with MP apparatuses, etc. Spectroscopy is a huge part of organic courses here. My professor likes to say it's a big part of what distinguishes us from people who take the lower level classes.

God I love playing with chemistry machines. My PI is the guy who is in charge of maintaining them all, too, so he is helping me understand a lot more about them.

>>5483269
>NMR

build your own you niggers, it's not that hard. you don't have to buy the grossly overpriced 15 million dollar machines that are marketed to you.

>>5483310
Well I don't need one anymore. I do genetics with plants now.

Although I have been thinking of building a spectrophotometer for a while now.

>>5483310
Any links to homemade NMR designs? I can't imagine having time/money to actually do it, but out of curiosity.

>mfw manually setting shivs

>>5483325
>spectrophotometer

you chemists and biologists come up with the darndest names for machines which make them sound better but are actually worse.

>>5483350
>implying UV/vis isn't awesome

>>5483349
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skb5VQbNc_Q

>>5483355

i'm jsut saying why not just say "I'm building a 100-1000nm spectrometer" instead of coming up with words that everybody has to look up because they're not entirely sure what they're supposed to mean.

>>5483362
That's fucking awesome! I would need to know more about NMR to figure out how to look at a spectra like that, though. I'm still getting used to looking at still images of spectra that are generated by the UI of the machine at school.

>>5483379
Fair enough.

>>5483405

google: c++, stamp, java, java gui, microcontroller, usb cable, transistor, resistor, capacitor, signal processing, etc, etc..

you don't have to read it off an oscilloscope.

>>5482405
18 y/o AP Chem student here in High School.
My teacher never involves labs in a large amount...
The only lab we have had all year had to do with the light spectrum and protons becoming excited. We sprayed lithium on an open flame...
Woo.
They taught us everything up to converting the Mole unit so far... So much for fucking AP.
FL, USA. Home of the shit-tier southern educational system. It's almost as good as the south during their secession.

I'm actually self teaching myself.

senior in hichschool.

>>5483484
>hichschool
>hick*
Lol'd

>>5483474
I'm from Florida and I did well on the AP exam for chem. I also have a few friends from another part of Florida that learned single variable and multivariable calculus in addition to linear algebra and differential equations. Don't blame your lack of knowledge on the education system. Faggot

>>5483506
What high school did/do you go to?

>>5483515
I'm from the Gulf coast near central Florida, but that's irrelevant. My friends were from the Miami area. I go to a good university now.

>>5482405
I've known grad students who were unable to do simple calculations like this, and serial dilutions just about made their heads spin and explode...

>>5483379
>i'm jsut saying why not just say "I'm building a 100-1000nm spectrometer"
Because "spectrophotometer" is shorter and easier to say while still conveying the information that it's visible light only.

>>5483529
How do they get into grad school? Don't they have to, you know, talk to people? Isn't their problem trivially exposed?

This thread gave me hope, I'm going to ask a professor of mine on Thursday to see if they'd let a disgusting undergraduate plebeian like me work in her lab.

>>5482438
>I'll soon have an MS in biology
you'll soon have a piece of worthless paper and a huge amount of debt

>>5483610
Don't biology trolls get tired of forcing memes like some kid from /b/?

>>5483349
Not an NMR machine, but still related.
DSM has recently made an IR spectrophotometer for drug conformation for the police. It's a work of beauty, handheld, cheap (under the $300), autocalibrating because cops are too stupid to do it, comes with an inbuilt database of spectras while you can still get the raw data. It's magnificent.

Also, for DIY stuff, I'm going to say it again, look on sciencemadness.org. One guy built his own cyclotron. Useless but cool.