/sci/ - Science & Math

I should also add that both sides of my family are from Hungary, but as anybody familiar with Magyar history knows, the Carpathian Basin has had every ethnic group and the kitchen sink waltz through it at some point in history.

Historical analysis of what the makeup of the typical Hungarian is fine and all, but at some point you kind wanna have yourself tested, yah know?

Ethnicity is more like a social/cultural thing that you choose to identify with, not a genetic thing. Anyone trying to sell you testing to tell you your ethnic makeup based on genetics is scamming you or referring to nonsense science from back when people thought genetics between people differed enough that you could break them down into races.

At best you will get your MT-DNA and Y-DNA haplogroups, but that won't really tell you much.

What you should do is get yourself tested for genetic deficiencies and shit. There's even home testing kits for that.

>>5368677
>back when people thought genetics between people differed enough that you could break them down into races.
Dohoho in major denial about genetics lefty?

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/magazine/16-01/ps_dna

Why do you care about your ethnic heritage?
If it's because of racism shit then chances are you're going to be very disappointed with the results

Wow. Is /sci/ usually this ignorant?

>>5368683
>2012
>Still using skin colour as your main method of race categorisation

>>5368677
By ethnicity I don't mean nation (as in "Am I Irish or Italian?"), I mean the groups that developed on the European continent such as the Germanics, the Balts, the Celts, and so on. I know you don't take stock in such categorizations; however, I do.

I respect your different opinion, and don't wish to derail the thread down an argument over this. all I'm looking for is the best site to accomplish my purposes

Unless Hungary gave rise to a lost branch of humanity, you're descended from blacks.

>>5368690
What will you do when you find out that most of your ancestors were mongols, arabs, and a few lowest class white plebians?

>>5368692
>implying dna testing clumps groups around skin color and not around almost exactly the same criteria as those in the common sociological definition of race

>>5368692
Because there is a large chance this man is not African.

>>5368693
>you're descended from blacks.
Poor blacks never evolved since then. You racist.

>>5368695
Well first off I will ask as to which testing site has the best methodology to determine this heritage you propose I have. Sorry, you're not going to bait me into going down this path. Read the OP, and give me your opinion regarding that.

>>5368693
Ok, and all life is descended from a bunch of germs. Your point?

>>5368692

Why the fuck are you using a /fit/ shitty meme? All you are missing is Constanza and you would start shittying up this board even more. GTFO.

So basically OP is trying to show once and for all that he is in fact a direct descendant of Napoleon and that he was born to be a leader (even though he works as a shoe salesman)

>>5368709
But we're all the same species. For example, blacks can do anything any other race can.

>>5368720
But they can do more, like say, run faster.

>tfw I've met incredibly intelligent black studying PhDs and such
/pol/ is just jealous that they're not smart enough to do the same.
They've never actually achieved anything of note in their life, so instead they cling to the achievements of their "race" like pathetic babies

>>5368722
No, they can't, many individuals can, many individuals are also less intelligent than many individuals of other races, however to say "blacks can run faster" or "blacks aren't as intelligent" is false because there are countless exceptions to the general trend.

>>5368697
>sociology
>not pseudoscience
choose one

>>5368722
Many people attribute this to 'all people with dark skin' because of people competing at the olympics. However, as it turns out most of those 'great black runners' actually come from the same village where running is a large part of their culture. It's analogous to saying that all amerindians are great runners because the tarahumara are.

tldr: you're an idiot

>>5368713
No. Pretty much i'm just interested in this stuff, you're the one erecting strawmen.

and so far, neither the people refuting or affirming biological divisions smaller than species have been kind enough to mention which sites are the best. But hey, what else can I expect from 4chan? Same shit always happens on EVERY other board whenever I have a question.

>>5368749
because you're asking for pseudoscience in the science board. It'd be the same as asking where to go get the best acupuncture. Go to /pol/ or /x/ and ask, they'll give you better "help".

>>5368748
I'd wager that they have biological differences from the rest of humanity that aid them in running

>>5368751
>asking for science on the pseudoscience board
>fixed

not OP

>>5368754
Not really as it's not something present in descendants raised outside of the culture. Same with the Tarahumara. Genetic change at that level doesn't happen nearly that fast. The differences between all humans is tiny, even compared to the differences between different dog breeds.

On a sidenote OP, you were a dumbass for using that picture as your OP post on /sci/.

>>5368751
Genetics is pseudoscience. You heard it on /sci/, folks. Only math and space is science. Every other topic is discussed on the basis of how socially acceptable it is.

>ITT: every naysayer is either a brown white-hating immigrant living somewhere in America or Canada, thus biased, or a pasty white-hating white guy wearing a checkered shirt and black-framed glasses.
Oh, it's true.

You know, genetics doesn't have to be a Eurocentric thing as you like to think. Everyone should be open to the subject.

>>5368740
I never implied otherwise, I was merely pointing out that the biologically real and genetically observable concept of race corresponds to much more than just skin color.

>>5368751

DNA doesn't have markers for you ancestry?

Excuse me?

The notion that Africans don't run faster in general basically suggests that no such thing as talented people exist in the world. According to you, we're all born in a blank state with equal physical and mental capabilities, and only through hard work do you achieve success; everything else is irrelevant. In other words, Usain Bolt and Christian Wenston Chandler had an equal chance at birth of becoming the fastest man in the world. You know as well as me that's not true.

If we accept the idea that talented people exist genetically-speaking, then it's also logically possible that these genetics can concentrate among a group of people, such as families, or even what we perceive as races (, which are essentially just big families). Now, why couldn't the running talent be more prevelant among some African tribes? If talent is genetics, then it also allows for races to be different.

JIDF is on patrol in this thread. Denying genetic differences between races is like denying 2 + 2 equals 4. It's a matter of fact.

>>5368812
>implying ancestry = ethnic group

>>5368818
You are retarded, Usain Bolt does not represent all africans. Use scholar.google searches and you'll understand why.

>>5368818
I accept that talented individuals exist, but the fundamental unit for our species is the individual, not the race. People are the synergy of all their alleles combined and unique in this sense; so I don't believe judgement based on race is scientifically sound any more than lockheed martin would hire someone on the basis that the average chance for someone of their race being an engineer was higher. Nor is it humanitarian. You may call it "PC", but there is a reason it is socially unacceptable to make judgements about folks before you know anything about their individual nature.

For anyone whose ultimate agenda it is to make others respect them by birthright and not by individual merit, they are wasting their time; I will neer do so, and I will actively convince others not to do so as well.

>>5368877
A majority of the fastest runners in the world are of African descent. This fact can't be denied. It gives ground to the notion that Africans are better at it.

How do you define "talent"? Do you think it's attributed to genetics? If not, why?

>>5368909
I think 'african' is an arbitrary denomination. Why not say, kenyans are better than congolese at running? Or the people of the eastern hemisphere are bettwer than western hemisphere? Or darker skinned are better than light skinned? Or Bostonians are better than New-Yorkers? There's an infinite number of possible ways you can group people and then find averages on a genetic basis; but a free-market society will naturally tend to judge based on individual merit because that is the most viable denomination on which to make judgements. And indeed, that is the direction society is tending when one considers historical precedent.

>>5368868
>implying it doesnt

>>5368902
>but the fundamental unit for our species is the individual, not the race.
This talent most certainly didn't just spring out of thin air. Your genetic makeup is that of what you inherited from your parents. This result can be predicted to a degree based on the parents characteristics.

If two top athletes have children together, and two office workers, who were never good at anything athletic, have children together, whose children do you think has a better chance of exceeding in sports with equal training? Of course I would bet on the athletes. It's common sense.

>>5368902
So basically, you're saying that you know you're completely wrong, but you're so opposed to the implications of what the truth is that you cannot allow yourself to admit that it is true?

>>5368933
Because "Africans" are a supercluster of genes comprised of the populations living on the African continent, which are distanced from other genetic clusters.

European and asian genes make their own genetic clusters similarly.

>>5368868

I never said that you retard.

Learn to fucking read.

>>5368944
What's you point? We were all once tiny furry animay living in burrows, but that doesn't mean I'd suspect a modern person of burrowing underground for shelter. What does it matter what our parents were when individuals are still the fundamental functional unit of our species, each with a unique genome? Who cares if our mother was sucessful if we didn't inherit the combination of genes to manifest in success in our own life?

>>5368933
Because the traits generally shared by individuals of East African descent as a result of common genetic heritage specifically lead to those individuals being better at running. If you were comparing Bostonians and New Yorkers, the two groups are genetically both extremely diverse, whereas East Africans share an empirically much less diverse set of genetics that is specifically more effective at running than other ethnic groups.

>>5368958
>>5368958
That doesn't answer the question of what utility judgement by this denomination provides over any other.

>>5368972
>Who cares if our mother was sucessful if we didn't inherit the combination of genes to manifest in success in our own life?
But that's not the point AT ALL, the point isn't whether it MATTERS it's whether it's TRUE and you went from trying to argue that it isn't true when you know it is to arguing that it just doesn't matter.

Half of these posts are pure shit.

The test won't tell you anything except for what haplotypes you belong to

If I was you, I would stick it out for a couple of more years. The price of sequencing is drastically falling every year.

It's what? $2000 for a whole genome now? Used to be $10k two years ago

>>5368988
Whether what's true? I already told you, races are an arbitrary denomination when it comes to making judgements about people.

>>5368958

all of my wats

>implying lapps and norwegians are extremely similar because they are european.

>implying arabs,indians,persians,central asians,turks,han chinese,ainu are an "asian" supercluster

If "athletic ability" is not in the genes, then it implies that race horses were not selectively bred to be fast but each and every foal of the "breed" simply becomes magically and individually fast. It has nothing to do with the way the breed was bred for centuries, the horses are just incredibly lucky to be fast! It wins the genetic lottery every time!

>>5369012
Well, they do form big clusters on different continents with some "bridge" groups, but when you inspect closer you'll start seeing differences even within the clusters.

This is almost like looking at star formations, galaxies and so on.

>>5369048
with that logic you're seeing a pattern among noise

there is some "reason" in the noise, but for the most part, it's noise

>chaos theory anyone

>>5368677
>nonsense science from back when people thought genetics between people differed enough that you could break them down into races.
Wait wut? Are you that economics guy who is doing the mod job?

I believe you could put modern indians and arabs(Turks/Northafricans) in the same racial group. They appears to be very similar.

Other races would be Eastasians, Black Africans, White Europeans and maybe Aboriginals.

I read that 23 and me is less usefull for people with both ancesters coming from 1 country due to the way they use to define etnicity.I however have not better sugestion

http://www.igenea.com/

>>5368666
>That picture
Why did they specifically pick the ugliest white girls in the world?

>>5369099
please say you're trolling.

The turks originate in central asia, speak turkic language
The arabs originated in yemen, speak semitic language
indians are central asians more related to iranians (aryans) than turks, speak indo-european language (and the sub continent of india is not just one "race")

>basing race only on looks instead of language patterns, history, and GENETICS!

With that logic you could say indigenous people in new guinea are the same race as sub-saharan blacks even though they are separated by at least 30k years

>>5369143
Probably some of these IDF models.

>>5369150
>The turks originate in central asia, speak turkic language
What has language and origin of the "culture" fot to do with racial background? You wouldn't even notice a turks who hides among arabs.

>>5369150
Basing race, somthing strictly biological on cultural patterns... I bet you consider americans a race. lol

>>5369158
because a language develops when a group of people are separated geographically and culturally
over time it leads to a "race"

turks are not arabs. period.

i'm arab and I can tell the difference between a turk and an arab. I can tell the difference between a north african, levantine, and gulf arab too

if you're still basing race on only looks, please go back to the 1920's with your eugenics logic. take your skull measuring device the nazis loved so much

i believe theres something called GENES and Y chromosomal and mtDNA analysis proves a clear difference between the two groups. but it seems your brain can't process this knowledge

please take your rasist ideals and shove them up your ass.

>>5369165
no. can you read
culture, history, and genetics

emphasis on GENETICS

>>5369178
I can tell the difference between a Spaniard and a Brit. That doesn't mean they are different races.

>>5369178
>if you're still basing race on only looks, please go back to the 1920's with your eugenics logic. take your skull measuring device the nazis loved so much
hurr durr

>>5369212
that's my point exactly.

phenotype doesn't mean shit. genotype is better

>inb4 genotype dictates phenotype

human features depend on many genetic and environmental factors.

>>5369221
>phenotype doesn't mean shit.
Genotype determines your phenotype.

Do you at least have the basics in biology?

>genotype is better
Even if you take a look at the genotype Turks are closer to other Arabs than to central asian people. The only thing they share with central asians is language.

>>5369248
do YOU understand the fundamentals of epigenetics?

genotype greatly influences phenotype but it's not set in stone.

I believe there's a field of biology known as epigenetics... you should read about it

it doesn't mean turks belong to the same ethnic group as arabs, just implies that for the 1000+ years of proximity the two peoples mixed.

koreans and chinese people look a like, most likely bred with each other, but are considered different ethnic groups`

>>5369309
>ethnic groups`
At least you are getting some terms right. Why don't you go back playing with some leftist kiddies on /pol/?

They have about as much knowledge of biology as you and they are ready to believe every story you tell them. ;)

>>5369340
>>5369340
what does science have to do with a political agenda?

i'm a doctoral candidate in immunology so my knowledge of biological sciences is not an issue.

the issue seems to be one of semantics, specifically the definition of race, which lacks a justifiable quantitative means of determination. the best distinctions of race using quantitative methods are nothing but broad brushstrokes based nonsynonymous mutations.

>>5369375
What a coincidence. I'm doctoral candidate of Fuck you. lol

>>5369382
my first day on /sci/ and I was hoping to find a vestige of logic, maturity, and healthy debate on 4chan.

i was dead wrong.

>>5369398
Try again sometime without your trip

I will never understand why people give a shit about their ancestry. It's the most meaningless thing in the world. The only relatives that I care about are the ones that I personally know and that know me. Anything else is completely irrelevant to anything.

>letting political correctness and liberal emotional bullshit get in the way of finding the truth about human differences

I am so dissapoint. Oh, what could have beem

>>5369398
LOL, sorry bro but you really had this one comin, unrealistic expectations mang

>>5369537
self-hating white detected

>>5369398

Remember. All boards are on 4chan. So you can never expect too much.

>>5369398
>calling this shit 'logic'
>bringing this shit to a /sci/ence board
May the hounds of tindalos shit you onto a white dwarf.

>>5369592

Nope. Just a guy that knows that my skin color means that I require more sunlight than others, and that I'm more easily burned by it and that it's a matter of chance that determines where you'll be born and to what parents.

Aside from those factors, it's completely meaningless.

>>>/pol/
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>>5369616
yes, because every race's culture is the exact same. you're fucking retarded

OP your answer is 23andMe.

You never should've created this thread.

>>5369627

Who the fuck cares? What does it matter, like, at all?

I'll just leave this here.

http://infoproc.blogspot.ca/2007/01/metric-on-space-of-genomes-and.html
Metric on the space of genomes and the scientific basis for race

>>5369616
>Aside from those factors, it's completely meaningless.
If it really is so meaningless, why the constant "debating" and this need to force others to adopt your opinion?

>>5369655

Because I'm sick of seeing a bunch of so-called adults acting like children?

>>5369041
Who is breeding humans then, you fucking tard

>>5369248
Turks are not Arabs so them can't be closer to "other Arabs" you dumb fucking nigger

>>5369543
"liberal emotional bullshit" doesn't actually exist...
it's people like you that are butthurt emotional cripples that need false feelings of superiority about your "race" who engage in "emotional bullshit"

>ITT: Trolled again /sci/.

>race
>/sci/

>using the term race
>Science board
>race

I'm not saying that there are no genetic differences between groups of different backgrounds, but there's none of the differences are significant to classify these groups as different races.

>>5369719
I'm sleepy as fuck

meant

>but none of the differences are significant enough to classify these groups as different races.

>>5369719
This.

But all the storm fags will soon spout their pseudoscience rubbish and have you believe otherwise.

Don't believe the lies.

ohhh hohohoh this was quite fun snathfoolery and successful bamboozle

>>5369726
>>5369725
What exactly do you object to about the idea of "race"?

That the boundaries are not sharp (true, but then we don't say that color has no objective basis for this reason)

That the differences aren't enough to reliably classify individuals by race (false, pic related*)

That racial differences are significant according to your subjective judgement? Ok but that's, I guess, subjective

*Technically this pic is probably based on principal components formed from groups, not individuals, but anyway...