/sci/ - Science & Math

If true, that is absolutely amazing.

Vegans are monsters.

http://www.news.uwa.edu.au/201204034491/research/talking-plants

So, they are conscious?

>>5048337
NO

>>5048346
what makes you say that?

>>5048346
they could be conscious, and they are all like "let's never tell the humans we know they are there" you know WHAT THE FUCK

>>5048400
Maybe they just can't communicate with us.

We can't understand dolphin sonar language and yet they are inarguably conscious, yes? They also have a complex brain so it isn't the best analogy.

WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO EAT NOW

DO WE HAVE TO MURDER THINGS TO SURVIVE?

>>5048559
Lab grown synthetic hyperfood.

>>5048559
You aren't murdering them. A plant is its seed. What you cut off the top is like cutting off someone's hair and eating it. It keeps growing back.

Each leaf on a plant is not a single living entity.

>>5048337
No, as they have no brain, or other functionally analogous organ.

Do they experience? Do they have qualia?

>>5048753
We don't know that consciousness is a product of the brain.
That's mere speculation.

>>5048776

As one with a degree in botany, some of this is true and some imagined. Yes, a plant may emit a chemical when the tissue is damaged, but to conclude that they do this to "warn" their neighbors is attributing intelligence that they just don't have. And the clicking noise is not "talking." It is simply some biochemical reaction. Like my hamburger telling me it is ready to eat when done frying.

This piece displays a stunning level of scientific incompetence, assuming conclusions that are not justified on the basis of the study and omitting caveats that would put this information in accurate perspective.

For example, one plant reacting chemically to a certain stimuli, and another plant's reacting chemically to that first chemical reaction, does not constitute "talking." Though there is some definition of "communication" that might be applicable here, it isn't the conscious sort that could be relevant to deciding whether or not plants are anywhere near the level of animals in terms of the moral consideration they deserve.

>>5048787
>implying we do

>>5048753
>hi i'm a dogmatic faggot who thinks that consciousness is exclusively a property of this meat inside my cranium of which i own zero understanding at any level of analysis

>>5048796
>>5048794
How come physically fucking with specific parts of the brain have specific and documented effects on emotion, cognition, and personality? What do you propose is responsible for consciousness?

>>5048805
Great, so you can change the subjective experience (whatever that is) of an animal with optical/electrical stimulation or ablation of some anatomical region of the brain.

That doesn't *AT ALL* mean that there aren't other systems that are conscious (whatever that means), and the absence of the only organ that we suspect is conscious (whatever that means) doesn't disqualify an organism (or any system, for that matter) from consciousness.

>>5048796
I would appreciate it if you would convince me that consciousness lies elsewhere instead of calling me names.

>>5048805
>What do you propose is responsible for consciousness?
If I knew, I would be receiving my Nobel Peace Prize tomorrow.

>How come physically fucking with specific parts of the brain...
It affects the processing of information being received by the brain. E.g. visual, sensory etc. And the outward processing. E.g. communicating, focusing etc

We have no clue what effect it has on thought. That's a subjective experience and we are bound to never know.

>>5048707
Does that mean eating grains and grain products is murder?

>>5048817
>But we can see that they are mentally retarded and stupid
That's only from what they communicate to us (outward processing).

>>5048821
Grains come from rice plants.
Same applies

>>5048814
I didn't say something needs a brain to be conscious. I said you need a brain or something functionally analogous. Plants do not have either.

>>5048828
That is false. Cellular machinery that detects changes in the local concentration of any chemical and adjusts physiological properties of the cell accordingly, e.g. any signaling mechanism, is analogous to what the brain does. All the non-autonomic nervous system does is detect changes in the firing rate of sensory neurons and adjust the position of skeletal muscles accordingly. Of course, the sensory->motor mappings of the brain are EXTREMELY nonlinear and not markovian in the slightest, so much so that people are obsessed with this idea of free will as a lazy explanation for the complexity.

Anyway, that said, trees have systems level responses to external stimuli. There is a type of tree that engages a long-distance signaling mechanism to locally poison leaves that insects land on. I don't know the type of tree and I couldn't provide a citation, however, because I only work with organisms that have nervous systems.

>>5048817
Have you ever heard of lobotomies? Changing the physical structure of the brain changes not just subjective experience, but the way we think and our decision-making. If that's not consciousness, I don't know what is.

>>5048856
Nobody knows what consciousness is. I think the most valiant attempts at defining it only got published in PLOS computational biology.

In science, we can't settle for pornography-like "i know it when i see it" definitions. That's lazy, and we should leave that to the social psychologists.

>>5048849
When I said functionally analogous, I meant that it performed the same supposed functions as a brain: interpreting stimuli, making decisions, storing and reviewing memories, etc.

>>5048856
>I don't know what is.
glad you admit it.

>>5048881
It's definitely interpreting stimuli (discerning the presence of an insect) and making decisions (inducing the appropriate change in physiology to the stimulus), but I suppose I can't speak to learning and memory. Perhaps some of the citations in the OP can, though.

>>5048881
>interpreting stimuli
cells do this when they respond to chemicals
>making decisions
a chemical reaction ina cell can "make decisions" in the same way as neurons
>storing and reviewing memories
plants store chemical memories of previous attacks and damage

>>5048856
That's behaviour isn't it? Besides, what's so special about consciousness? It's more of a hindrance than anything else because it means you have to start being able to justify what you do

>>5048791
Sounds like you're making some stunning assumptions here too. Most importantly that anything that's been said above has anything to do with putting plants "near the level of animals in terms of the moral consideration they deserve"

>>5048874
I'm not going to pretend there's a clear definition of consciousness, or that the concept is meaningful in the first place. But what most people describe as consciousness, likely takes place in the brain. (I'm a laymen, if that might help you explain this to me better.)

>>5048913
This kind of consciousness sounds like a legitimate idea - I guess I would call it the identification of the narrow self? As opposed to the expansive sense of self which takes in our necessary embeddedness with everything around us too.

Carl thinks this is the shittiest thread of the night.

>>5048934
>feeds the trolls
Knock that shit off.

>>5048889
You can hardly call some kind of osmosis-induced chemical reaction or chain thereof 'making a decision'. Are you arguing that your immunological defenses become active in the presence of some foreign body, they do so consciously? That's retarded.

>>5048895
>can "make decisions" in the same way as neurons
neurons don't make decisions

>plants store chemical memories of previous attacks and damage

Oh, please, tell me more!

>>5048913
I would definitely agree that consciousness probably takes place in the brain. People like to assume that it takes place in the neocortex (the outer layer), but measurable deficits in behavior can be induced by subcortical (most famously hippocampal) damage.

There really isn't much else to be said, though. Just about everyone, layman or not, has the same idea about what consciousness is because no one really has a damn clue what it is or how to define it. It's helpful to forget about it all together and treat your brain as a machine that maps sensation to movement in a really really really really complicated way.

>>5048938
I fully agree with this comment.

>>5048563
Is that being developed?

>>5048934
Why waste time and energy 'making a decision' when you already have the best response coded in your genes?

Animals make bad decisions all the time, especially humans, it's not really all that 'good' a strategy. Just a different one.

We don't 'make a decision' to move our hand away when it touches something hot, but it's still a 'good' thing to do and a pretty interesting way of responding to the environment. This stuff about how plants respond to the environment is also pretty interesting, right?

>>5048954
In your specific case I agree. Get yourself lobotomized in a way that only the reptilian brain and the parts for the necessary functions still work. Since you won't be able to shitpost/troll you'll automatically have made the best decision! You'd be as effective as a vegetable!

>>5048791
Sweet, where did you train? I'm just about to start a plant biology course (I'm really interested in sustainable agriculture projects and GM) but I have the option to switch to 'pure' Biology. How did you find the course? Would you recommend it?

>>5048975
A vegetable only needs to be effective as a vegetable! Why should it waste time making pointless decisions.

I'm a human, so to be an effective human I need to make decisions.

Neither strategy is inherently superior to the other, just as evolution is not a linear process with an endpoint

ITT: What is the meaning of life?

>>5049089
To live.

>>5049102
to flourish?

>>5049102
No, it's to do whatever you think is right, and justify it as hard as you can.

This is why I smoke cigarettes. You're fucked whatever you do, I like smoking, I smoke.

>>5049113
jesus dude, the world isn't a big endless competition. you don't have to spend your life justifying what you do as hard as you can....

relax

>>5049118
Pah.

The world's full of people trying to take what they can get, and anything you enjoy will be sought to be taken away from you.

I don't see the point in helping people, doing something useful, profound or beautiful anymore. I gave up studying music, art, hard science.

Great, I could do anything, but for what? What's the 'best' choice?
What's my responsibility?
What do I do to ensure I regret things the least?

But lucky me! I found a nice girl, and 'love'.

Love. Something I have to believe isn't just some instinct or fairytale. Fuck, this'd be easier if I wasn't a rational person.

Now I just have to find money. Money enough so I don't have to think about money.

Where do I sell my soul for the largest income, and hope to be able to have some time to spend doing what I want, sometime?

I love being alive sometimes, uncertainty, futility, yet regret.

>>5048707
What if

Hey

What if each leaf had it's own consciousness

And like a plant is made up of hundreds of separate consciousnesses

Trees would be like cities

>>5049162
So fucking edgy, man. You're so deep and thoughtful.

You aren't "rational", you're a teenager or just out of your teens.

>>5049233
No. I just gave up studying, was at University for 4 years.

I'm disillusioned and at a loss at what I'm supposed to do with myself.

Not everyone disparaging is an angsty teen. Occasionally there are genuinely conflicted and frustrated people.

Throw me a fucking bone

>>5049277
We get hundreds of you "hurr life is so tough and there's no point to doing anything" fags every week on 4chan.

The only bone I'm throwing at you is aimed at your fucking head.

>>5049281
It's not tough.

I don't think life ought to be pointless. I'm just at a loss as to where to direct my energy.

I want to get on with things, that's all.

I'm sick of being told 'you can do anything'.

Fuck, my grandfather got the first job he could during the depression, worked his way up, then became foreman and rolled in it.

What the fuck is a person who 'can do anything' supposed to do? What ought he do?

>>5049299
>more edgy bitching

Confirmed for not caring about science and only using /sci/ as his personal soapbox to whine about his problems.

>>>/adv/

>>5049307
Yeah, you're right. This isn't the place for this. Neither is /adv/ though.

toodles, I'll go save face someplace else now...

>>5049299
It seem you've dug yourself into a hole to the point where you cant crawl or climb back up.... I'm guessing the only way from here is you either keep digging, or wait till someone (this rarely happens) can pull you out.

>today I hit a nail into some wood with a hammer
>the nail and wood pushed back on my arm with an equal force
>WOOD AND NAILS ARE SENTIENT

this thread

>>5049381
Are wood and nails conscious?

>>5049381
>Wood is capable of registering memories and communication

Assinflamed vegan detected