/sci/ - Science & Math

It's Tasty...

>>4956712
So is chocolate. Chocolate doesn't waste our farm land, provide bacteria with the PERFECT environment for overcoming antibiotics, and allow herd diseases to pass to humans.

You'll adapt.

How about humans eating other humans? Win-win?

>>4956678
me eating a fucking steak does fuck all to affect that
even if i go veggie, that doesnt magically make all other humans do the same
in a world of billions of people, one persons choice to be a veggiefag or not makes fuck all difference

tl;dr, meat is tasty, and i cant make a difference anyway

>>4956678
>Humanity should drastically reduce its meat consumption.
Morally it doesn't make sense either. It pretty much boils down to
>>4956712
>It's Tasty...

Doubt I'll ever go vegetarian thouhg

>>4956724
Every disease within human meat can be caught by the humans consuming it and humans are better for other roles, like telemarketing and Excel.

>>4956728
You don't have to "go vegetarian". You just have to reduce your meat consumption. If you have meat in every meal and/or meat as the main component of a meal then you are doing it wrong.

>>4956678
yea,,,, except that there's no long-term evidence that humans can live healthy on low- or no-meat diets.

there has never been any significant society (500 years+) in history that has ever chosen to stop eating meat voluntarily. there have been some cultures that have eaten almost-entirely-meat for thousands of years, and they survived just fine.

>>4956734
But meat's fucking good.

>>4956734
even if i eat less meat rather than having no meat, the argument in: >>4956726
still applies.

How about lab-grown meat?

>>4956726
>me eating a fucking steak does fuck all to affect that
Yes it does.

>even if i go veggie, that doesnt magically make all other humans do the same
By your logic you can't fill a bucket with drops of water. Also, you are forgetting that humans can communicate and therefore can spread ideas and habits. The fact that a negligible change isn't sufficient is redundant and moot.

EK, are you an angry drunk?

>>4956741
It's heavy and just sits in your stomach when you eat a lot of it. If you stop eating so much of it for a few weeks you'll know what I mean.

>>4956749
nope
if 4000,000,000 people eat meat, and I chosoe to quit, then
3999,999,999 people still at meat, and all that shit in the Op about:
>meat production is wasteful, increases the rate at which bacteria adapt to antibiotics, and is the primary vector for pandemics.
still happens at almost exactly the same rate, and I just have shit food for nothing

how about no?

>itt: It tastes good and I don't give a fuck about my species.

This isn't my /sci/.

>>4956756
And this isn't 2011. Welcome to /sci/ 2.0.

>>4956744

looking very promising, but right now they only can reproduce cow muscle, and only very tiny pieces.

The purpose of the economy isn't to cram as many people on the planet as possible. It is, in large part, to provide a high standard of living.

That said, any unsustainable practices that sacrifice long term gain for short term gain are wasteful, but these are common throughout the economy. Why single out meat production?

earth can't support a world full of vegetarians.

>>4956749
huh, i probably should reply to the whole post...
>By your logic you can't fill a bucket with drops of water.
people will sill call a 99.99999999% full pint glass a pint.
its still fucking there.

>Also, you are forgetting that humans can communicate and therefore can spread ideas and habits.
true, but veggiefags get on my tits.
i have to fucking live with one, but i aint fucking changing

>EK, are you an angry drunk?
no, altho i did just post a cartoon of a guy holding booze..just coinidence!

>>4956754
Please read my post. >>4956749

Again, by your logic soldiers are useless because no single soldier can win a war, you can't fill a bucket with drops because no single drop fills the entire bucket, ideas can't ever become common because the person who had the idea is just one person.

An idea leads to action, action supports idea, idea spreads, action becomes common.

Now onto the more important question, what kind of drunk are you?

>>4956766
it can actually. eating veggie is more efficient.
<<<

>>4956744
>lab grown meat
I wouldn't think it would ever become an efficient process.

>>4956770
the best kind

>>4956766
And why is that?

>>4956726
Your attitude is literally everything -- EVERYTHING -- that is wrong with the Earth.

"Oh, everyone else is going to keep being shitty, so it doesn't matter if I change my ways."

"Oh, someone else is going to rape this schoolgirl if I don't do it, so I might as well do it myself."

"Oh, someone else is going to commit genocide on this race of people that I don't like, so I might as well become a dictator and do it myself."

>>4956777
EK, are you an angry militant lesbian?

>>4956771
actually, a combination of meat and vegetable production is the most efficient method. All pasture land is not readily converted into crop land and pasture land is much more common. Not to mention crop production has some serious drawbacks on the soil it's produced on.

>>4956767
No one is talking about vegetarianism. This thread is about REDUCTION of meat consumption.

>>4956776
Why? I'd imagine that after the process has been developed it would be little different from brewing.

>>4956785
Soil isn't either capable of growing human produce or not capable of growing human produce. Some land is just better at it than others. The fact remains that you can get a lot more food from any patch of land by growing food crops than you can growing cattle feed, feeding it to cattle, and then eating the cattle.

OP, I don't think you know just how bad it really is.

http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/environment.html

That is some info that just skims the surface... The meat industry is pretty much the absolute worst thing that has ever happened to our planet. And it's only getting worse. You don't hear about it because the parties interested in keeping it quiet have very deep pockets.

>>4956783
>not sequitur
>faggot

>>4956784
nope.

>actually, a combination of meat and vegetable production is the most efficient method
it doest actually. farming cows on x metre^2 of land, produces less food than growing plants for humans to eat on x^2 of land.
energy gets wasted as you move up the food chain (you cant eat bones, hair, animals movement energy....etc. energy gets wasted, hun)

>>4956787
same thing, just even less helpful
nice going, fag.

>>4956784
Well, EK does like women, but not because he's a lesbian.

>>4956795
The protein would still have to come from plants, and I would think it would take a long time to match the efficiency of animals when it comes to turning plants into meat, let alone significantly surpass them.

Maybe you are imagining a time much further in the future than I am.

>>4956811
*she
and bisexual actually, not that its any of your business.

>>4956810
>same thing, just even less helpful
I have no idea what you are talking about.

I like you better when you are in a good mood EK. It's like night and day.

>>4956796
nothing is black and white, don't be a child. just because something can support grass does not mean it can be used to grow something as resource intensive as corn. Obviously some plants require much less to be able to grow and in some lands only crops suitable for livestock can grow. Look up the difference between pasture land and cropland, and how much more we have than cropland. The figures aren't how much we currently use, it's how much is available for use in one method than in another.

>>4956810
Let the butthurt floooooooow through you. Gooooood. Gooooooooood.

>>4956799
I know "how bad it is". I covered everything in my post.

>>4956810
>not sequitur
lal
I basically quoted you directly. But the good news is that I don't give a shit. No thread on /sci/ is going to make you a reasonable person and I have come to terms with that and moved on.

>>4956817
20 people eating LESS meat is like 10 people going full veggie.
you aint helping as much, all the problems in the OP still happen, only at a very very slightly reduced rate.
it makes fuck all difference, hun.

>>4956810
ummm see >>4956785
i already answered this. resources aren't perfectly transferable.

Are you actually the girl in your avatar pics EK?

Captcha: McAnally rworsess

>>4956828
you argument is bullshit because most schoolgirls dont get raped, and most people dont commit genocide.
that kinda shit takes effort
eating meat on the other hand, is fucking common.

NOT eating meat takes the effort here, because i'd need to start being an autistic bitch with my food, and checking all the labels and shit
i dont fucking have time!

>>4956829
Your math is entirely wrong. I know, SHOCKER.
There's worse than 95% energy loss (in terms of calories) for each level of the food chain. Now backpedal and explain what you REALLY meant to say.

>>4956836
>>4956829
enjoy your rose permaban

>>4956831
alright fine, but IF the land can have either, then crops are more efficient.
if the land aint suitable for crops, then yeh, obviously using it for meat production is better than just not fucking using it at all.

>>4956835
nope, im a fan. (shes a youtube atheist)
http://www.youtube.com/user/FactVsReligion

Why? The same reason NASA still waste money on going to the moon instead of using that money to go to Mars--Because we can.

>>4956842
enjoy your BPD and permaban

>>4956818
>in some lands only crops suitable for livestock can grow
>nothing is black and white, don't be a child.
You are contradicting yourself. Don't get mad at me because you didn't communicate your thoughts properly.

>just because something can support grass does not mean it can be used to grow something as resource intensive as corn
>support grass
>can't support human food crops
Cereals are grasses, dude. You can grow human food anywhere you grow cattle feed.

>>4956842
No, it's actually not. Using it for meat production requires massive amounts of fossil fuels to be consumed and massive amounts of water to be wasted. I hate you so, so much. But I also love you because you put a face on everything that's wrong with the world. At least we all have somewhere to point the finger.

>>4956842
which is why i said a combination of meat and vegetables is the most efficient method. apparently you don't understand the abundance of pastureland and how special cropland is. Also, growing plants ruins the land in a much more evident way than grazing. remember the dust storms?

>>4956736
>yea,,,, except that there's no long-term evidence that humans can live healthy on low- or no-meat diets.

Japan? I mean their main protein isn't red meat at least so we know that much to be true. A fish and humans aren't nearly as matched up when it comes to diseases as humans and cows.

>>4956835
this is EK

>implying vegetables and fruits can be created easily

Enjoy trying to make vegetables and fruits when the weather is destroying crops.

>>4956839
it aint math, and obviously i wasnt being rigorous
let me fucking simplify for you, cunt:

say you;re at a barbecue. meat eaters want 2 burgers, veggiefaggots have 2 veggie burgers
faggot fence sitting cunts are like: [high-picthed-faggot voice] "oooh! im just going to have 1 veggie burger and 1 normal burger, because I want to cut down on meat and save the world! yay world! ooh, are those new shoes? where did you get them... [/high-pitched-faggot voice]

and so 5 veggiefags and 5 meat eaters = 10 stupid 'cutting down on meat'-faggots

you only make half the difference.

usee?

>>4956857
enjoy the ban

>>4956853

Last time I checked, Fish is a meat.

>>4956849
I communicated my thoughts perfectly. I assumed you would be smart enough to know the difference between crop land and pasture land. Guess i expected too much. i don't even know why i'm arguing with you.
http://www.emaxhealth.com/1/16861.html

Meat exists,
therefore it makes sense.
(but I would agree to limit the consumption of animal proteins)

>>4956857
Have you ever had an IQ test professionally administered by a psychologist?

Just curious.

>>4956850
>Using it for meat production requires massive amounts of fossil fuels to be consumed
[sarcasm] oh fuck, yeh. if only we can get those fucking cows to stop driving 4X4's and start just eating grass, we'd save the fucking world [/sarcasm]
and yeh, cows drink water, but plants need water too. and water recycles, obviously.

Let's all eat m+ms instead, they're easy to farm and store

>>4956858
Why all this talk of bans?

>>4956855
>>4956858
fuck off 7/7/11-fag
you can also enjoy the ban with me.
you fucktard

>>4956867
ek is permabanned report her posts
>>4956866
enjoy the ban

>>4956865
yep
138
u-jelly?

>>4956871
>>4956874
enjoy the ban

>>4956866
Now you're just flaunting your ignorance. There's even a link right in this very thread that you could have chosen to glance at for five seconds, instead of spending the time typing in failed sarcasm. But then, you wouldn't be EK if you had done that, would you? Please never change.

>>4956874
Thank you. I will now never again treat IQ as a measure of intelligence.

>>4956873
You are obviously a massive piss-sniffing homosexual who longs for the strong arms and heady musk of a black man.

>>4956879
hahaha. oh you!

>>4956877
transporting crops also wastes fossil fuels, not just meat
enjoy you're invalid argument, dickface.

>>4956879
>trusting people's word on the internet
have YOU ever taken an iq test? also, IQ tests were meant to test retardationg. low ends are still reliable

The funny thing about heavy meat eaters is that after about age 60, they're already dead. Either they've had some major surgery involving gastrointestinal modification/removal, a heart attack or 2, they have a plethora of skin problems and bone (yes, bone) problems that without regular drug treatment their lives would be miserable. Honestly, It's like stabbing yourself once a month just for the hell of it, and then getting one more chance after that one time when you lost too much blood.
>oh well

>>4956829
I'm tired of your drop in the bucket arguments EK. I've already tried pointing out to you why they are absurd, and frankly, as another anon said, it's that kind of attitude that paralyzes positive change.

It's people who are willing to be a drop in the bucket that make things happen. Just look at the Civil Rights movement in America. It's the people who refuse to be a drop in the bucket that allow humanity to walk itself a cliff, after all, it's not like one neuron firing can lead to stepping in a different direction, amirite?

>>4956876
Loving that Yeah Yeah Yeahs vibe going on there

>>4956883
Enjoy your ban

>>4956881
fuck off newfag

>>4956883
> enjoy you're invalid argument, dickface.
Watching a person spiral downward into incoherency is one of the true rewards of coming to 4chan. And no one does it better than EK.

OP, I'm sorry that EK turned your thread into a shitfest, but you had a good point and there is some valuable information to be found here if you or anyone else is interested.

>>4956862
We aren't talking about pasture land. Read the OP. We are talking about meat factories where cattle are fed by antibiotic laced cattle feed, grown on farms.

>inb4 I thought you were smart, you child.

>>4956896
Lordy lordy, so much hate and rectal discomfort

>>4956818
Hydroponics.

Just try to grow a cow in water.

>>4956863
Fair enough.

>>4956900
On the outside chance I can get this done before the mods ban EK and delete this thread, here are some graphs...

>>4956914
Yay, go soybeans!

>>4956914

>>4956855
Where, pray tell, did you get these supposed images of EK?

>>4956919

>>4956928
>>4956919
>>4956914
I'll save them regardless, but they would carry a lot more water if I knew the source.

>>4956935
The source is right here: >>4956799

And his sources are actually very well researched.

>>4956904
>>4956923
fuck off summerfags. lurk more before posting

>>4956914
>>4956919
post you;re fucking souurces.
also pound for pound, meat is more nutritious yaknow??

>>4956856
The production of fish is entirely different from cows and pigs though.

The thread is about the negative effects of producing our primary meat sources cows and pigs. As a reason why humans should have less meat in their diet.

We're not even talking vegetarian like you and EK, we're talking like <30% meat consumption instead of >60%

>>4956928
>implying I will eat cabbage or corn for the rest of my life just because it can provide my daily calory input

Fuck no, I'll eat what tastes good and currently meat > veggies

>>4956678
Really nigger, fucking christ

>B-12 in veggies

>>4956928
[sarcasm] yes, because everyone fucking loves eating cabbage... [/sarcasm]

>>4956938
Cool, thanks.

I don't like it that the page has VEGETARIAN plastered all over it, since that word and its implications breed partisanship, but the info sounds legit.

>>4956941
>We're not even talking vegetarian like you and EK
im not a fucking veggie
can you even read??

>>4956919
How come fish is missing off that graph?

>>4956940
No it isn't.
And the source is posted TWICE in this thread. If you have a 138 IQ then the human race is so fucked that we might as well not even worry about meat.

>>4956945
>>4956943
Fruit salad tastes better than liver. Your argument is invalid.

>>4956955
yeh, sorry. i posted that before i found the source

but to be fair, he didnt even link, so how the fuck was i supposed to know if the source was linked in another random post ITT.

>>4956952
There are lots of types of fish, and most of them are hunted, not farmed. It's not in the same category as cows, pigs, and chicken.

Carb based food is more mass produced then fucking meat.

Our Bodies are meant to consume meats, we obtain the more nutrients in beef then in vegetation.

>>4956943
>implying eating cabbage is the only non-meat option

The problem with the world isn't that "the right thing" is hard to figure out or hard to do... It's just that people are lazy. And that should make you feel bad.

>>4956957
fine!
i'll have steak and fruit salad rather than cabbage and liver
double win!

>>4956948
The fuck you talking bout nigga?

>>4956812
I'm imagining genetically modified cell cultures grown in a nutrient solution which are then removed and impacted.

Chicken is the cheapest type of battery farmed meat, yet each chicken body only grows a few slivers of muscle tissue, most is gizzards, skin, bone and so forth. If all the energy goes towards meat production and it is grown in a large tank as opposed to many small chickens with a large surface area losing heat I'm pretty sure it will be cheaper than battery farming, though possibly not as cheap as traditional ranching, depends on feed and fossil fuel prices.

>>4956961

>>4956969
It's the same old shit that pops up in every "vegan" or "vegetarian" thread. People pretend that the only way to get B12 is in meat. It isn't. Lots of pro athletes rely on a purely vegan protein diet because the nutrients are better than what you get from meat. But don't tell them that.

EK, FvR is a vegetarian.
If you are such a fan, why not follow her example?

>>4956951
That's about the kind of memory span and reading comprehension I'd expect from you.

>>4956726
>even if i go veggie, that doesnt magically make all other humans do the same

>>4956959
Humans are omnivores. We were herbivores for a very long time, then we evolved to eat meat. We are now not that great at eating either.

Combined with the fact that we don't live on the savanha anymore, the place we evolved to live on, arguing about what humanity is "meant to eat" is pointless.

>>4956977
> Lots of pro athletes rely on a purely vegan protein diet because the nutrients are better than what you get from meat.
source? there are vegetarian athletes, but they're not a majority as you implied. if your statement was true, most of them would be vegetarians for the competitive edge.

>>4956977
> Lots of pro athletes rely on a purely vegan protein diet because the nutrients are better than what you get from meat

Okay, All of them incomplete chains of amino acids.

>>4956979
i dont have to do everything she does just coz im a fan.

>ctrl+f
>ENJOY YOUR BAN ENJOY YOUR BAN ENJOY YOUR BAN ENJOY YOUR BAN ENJOY YOUR BAN ENJOY YOUR BAN ENJOY YOUR BAN ENJOY YOUR BAN ENJOY YOUR BAN ENJOY YOUR BAN ENJOY YOUR BAN ENJOY YOUR BAN ENJOY YOUR BAN ENJOY YOUR BAN ENJOY YOUR BAN

>>4956952
>gallons of water need to produce fish
>that mostly live in the ocean

Because the water isn't being used, it's doing a calculation for how much air cows breath.

>>4956988
Athlete here. We eat a lot of meat.

>>4956977

Pro athletes are all superstitious morons who believe absolutely anything if they think it will give them an edge.

So their opinion is worthless.

>>4956719
Chocolate is tasty, but not hearty and satisfying like meat. If I ate a big plate of chocolate, I'd feel sick, but if I ate a plate of meat I feel fulfilled.

>>4956976
The animals are themselves inefficient. Our raising of them simply compounds the inefficiency of meat. Even if we grew meat as efficiently as animal bodies do, it still would be less efficient than just eating plants.

That said, "lab grown meat" preserves the usefulness of antibiotics, doesn't risk pandemics, and avoids the headache that is animal rights.

Meat consumption would be better reduced regardless, but switching the remaining meat production from farms to labs is a good idea.

>inb4 hippies won't eat it because they prefer "natural" animal flesh.

>>4956999
>dem trips
more like devils spawn in disguise.

>>4956988
> source?
Google?
https://www.google.com/search?q=athletes+vegan+protein

My other source is actual professional athletes... Yes, people who get paid to participate in sports. I know them and am working toward being one of them.

>>4957001
Oh, well, check and mate.

>>4957000
Atheletes listen to their bodies. They can tell when food makes them feel like crap. The more active one is the more easily one can tell how different foods affect one's body differently.

>>4957002

But humans don't do things because of reasons.

Also, many, many families will lose their entire livelihood.

I agree with you, but what you're talking about does not work with humans. They don't trust vaccines or science. Lab grown meat is perceived as an abomination.

>>4957000
They're also the people who are actually in shape and capable of doing the things you see on TV while you sit on your couch and watch.

>>4957006
no, you made the claim, it's on you to provide the source. i can make any retarded claim and tell you to google it and call you stupid if you can't find it. show me a source that says the majority of athletes use vegetarian diets.
>. I know them and am working toward being one of them.
you're on a science board. you should know better than to use anecdotal evidence and personal experience as proof of anything.

>>4957010

Yeah, and philosophers can understand their own minds by thinking about it.

Oh, wait.

You're just proving my point that athletes have focused their bodies at the expense of their minds.

>>4957016

OOOH BURN ERMAHGERD.

>>4957000
Do they believe the paint gives them magical powers or soemthing? What is the gimmick called?

>>4957021
i thought they were heating pads or something, since most of them were used for pain. some of them look too thin for that though, and with weird patterns.

>>4957019
> show me a source that says the majority of athletes use vegetarian diets
show me that you can read
show me a post that says "the majority of athletes use vegetarian diets"
show me that it matters what "most people" do anyway

I said that "lots" of athletes rely on vegan protein. They just do. I'm sorry if that makes you insecure.

>>4957021

It's a generic tape that they put on their muscles because some japanese guy told them to. It does absolutely nothing and all scientific studies back this up. But since Athletes know best about their bodies because they have a mommy instinct or some shit, they all use it.

Shit, they pray to god, wear magic tape and holograms to balance their chi. They're fucking lunatics.

>>4957021
>>4957026
kinesiology tape

Okay realistically speaking, do think humans are meat to be on a prolonged carbohydrate diet?

For most of our existence we hunted other animals, when their was fruits and other vegetation we ate them but that must of only been once in a while.

Even when we developed agriculture we only ate vegetation when it was in season.

But today when carbohydrate foods our mass produced, that's what everyone's diets consists of and guess what we all our fat and unheathly.

>>4957015
>But humans don't do things because of reasons.

Bullshit I just scratched my balls because they itched.

>>4957015
>Also, many, many families will lose their entire livelihood.

Because that prevented elevators from becoming automated, what ever would we do with out elevatormen.

>Lab grown meat is perceived as an abomination.

And space exploration is a waste of money, you don't stop talking about or pushing for something just because mouth breathers exist.

>>4957001
By "satisfying" do you mean feels like a canon ball in one's gut? Fruits, cereals, and vegetables never leave me feeling tired.

The suffering of human animals aside; humanity is wasteful, increases the rate at which bacteria adapt to antibiotics, and is the primary vector for climate destruction

I'm no fatalist and I have little problem existing, but humanity doesn't make sense. Humanity should drastically reduce its population

>>4956719
You realize that most chocolate is made with milk, a dairy product, right?

>are humans meant to

Stop right there. Humans aren't "meant" to be anything.

Especially with regards to living long lives. If you can live to be old enough to have a few kids, evolution did its job. Doesn't matter if you die afterwards from clogged arteries at the age of 50, if meat helped get you there.

>>4957027
>tries to redirect the point when pressed about a lack of sources
you tried to imply that because some athletes use a vegetarian diet, it is therefore better than a meat diet. For that to have any weight at all (despite the fact that as you said, what most do means nothing anyways) then at least most athletes would have to have that type of diet, since you tried to imply professionals agree with you.
>I said that "lots" of athletes rely on vegan protein. They just do. I'm sorry if that makes you insecure
lots is intentionally vague i'd assume, and therefore dishonest. besides, just because it's vague doesn't mean you're responsible for backing up your posts with a source.

i was just asking you to justify your statements. if that completely destroys your argument I'm sorry.

>>4957040
> do think humans are meat to be on a prolonged carbohydrate diet?
No. But don't imply that meat = protein and vegetables = carbohydrates because that's dumb.

>>4957015
>humans don't do things for reasons
Yes the do.
>polio kills humans
>humans therefore kill polio

>Lab grown meat is perceived as an abomination.
Like I said, hippies gonna hip.

>>4957040
>For most of our existence we hunted other animals, when their was fruits and other vegetation we ate them but that must of only been once in a while.

Yet the human digestive system is more on the plant eating side of the spectrum than on the meat eating side.

>>4957066
Wow.
Ok, how many athletes do I have to name before you're satisfied? And remind me again why I owe it to you to "prove" something that's obviously true?

Jake Shields is a pro UFC fighter.
Junior dos Santos (the current heavyweight UFC fucking CHAMPION) has talked about vegan protein being the best protein that you can get, but he is not vegan or vegetarian, as far as I know.

Those are two that came up in discussion earlier this week. That's not enough for you, is it? Just give me a number so I'll know when I'm done.

>>4957059
MILK chocolate is made with milk.

>>4957067
Yea but it kind of is

>>4957071
Exactly. Bugs have been shown to be far more efficient for farming and can even be made tasty but everyone is like "ewww bugs!" Womens' impact on our societies may have something to do with that.

I agree with OP. People other than me should eat less meat.

>>4957076
>Yet the human digestive system is more on the plant eating side of the spectrum than on the meat eating side.

Are you talking about fiber?

>>4957057
>Humanity should drastically reduce its population

Actually that would a lot from a completely realistic stand point but we can't do that easily so we'll have to settle for not fucking like rabbits.

>>4957085
EK has apparently evaded his ban.

>>4957079
Even dark chocolate usually has milk or fat in it as an emulsifier. Straight up chocolate tastes closer to pepper than the candy you're used to

>>4957020
>McDonalds makes my body feel the same way a fruit salad does
Stop acting stupid.

as long as your eating fat do what ever the fat you want.

>>4957086
Intestinal length is a good starting point.

>>4957077
>Jake Shields....Junior dos Santos
do you not know what the hell anecdotal evidence is? you don't have to name any athletes at all. in fact, naming athletes doesn't help you in the slightest. do you have any grasps of how many people in the world are considered athletes? some of them also have cancer, is cancer also a competitive edge? with your logic it is. show me statistics. what percentage are vegetarians vs meat-eaters.
>has talked about vegan protein being the best protein that you can get
appeal to authority.
>why I owe it to you to "prove" something that's obviously true?
because you made a claim. therefore you have to back it up. It's not obviously true just because you claim it is. You're obviously retarded and wrong. see how much that helps a discussion?
>Those are two that came up in discussion earlier this week
>he actually thinks 2 is of any significance in a pool of tens of thousands.

>>4957104
McDonalds makes a fruit salad, so unless you think the store adds some sort of intrinsic pathology...

>>4957100
No matter how much milk you put into a bar of chocolate, it doesn't amount to the same risks and waste as meat, and this thread has been about REDUCTION since the beginning.

This tangent is useless.

>>4957111
this is completely retarded. you do realize the only reason we evolved into logically thinking animals is because of a switch to a meaty diet? this was about 4 million years ago, do you think we still haven't adapted to eating meat yet?

>>4957117
If you don't want to discuss this shit then why are you posting itt?

>>4957111
>Intestinal length
>implying everything a person eats stays the same size it was before it was ingested

>>4957112
You're just overreacting to cover for looking bad in that earlier post.
> appeal to authority
Citing possibly the toughest athlete in the world in support of a claim about what athletes do is not "appeal to authority." You want to google any other logical fallacies and use them incorrectly, or just call it a day?

>>4957126
Seiusly this, love the people typing on electrical computers who think our body hasn't yet adjusted to eating meat.

And actually dietary speaking were much closer to rat/roach like omnivores than true vegetarians. Just watch a baby stick anything it comes into contact with into its mouth

What does /sci/ think about insects as an alternative food source?

>>4957126
We aren't hunter gatherers any more. We don't need 15,000 calories a day. This line of reasoning is pointless.

>>4957055

>elevator men.

Dude, don't get intellectually dishonest with me. I agree with you, but farming is a multi-generational thing in countries young as the US. What are they supposed to do for work? They will resist the change. Everyone involved in the farming industry will resist the change. I'm not saying that makes it impossible, but it is a pressing issue that we cannot just handwave.

>And space exploration is a waste of money,

Which is why, sadly, we hardly do it anymore.

>you don't stop talking about or pushing for something just because mouth breathers exist.

Tell that to Stem Cell research. How long was that held back by mouth-breather-in-chief and the christian majority that kept him in power? We have to consider these issues.

>>4957151

It's not about caloric intake. It's about the body having the resources to make new brain cells.

>>4957151
it hasn't been that long since we were. and even after we stopped, we still continued to eat meat. to suggest we somehow lost the ability to deal with meat in that short amount of time and despite our continued meat diet, is stupid.

>>4957146
Reported

>>4957151
>We aren't hunter gatherers any more
Yes, but our bodies still think so

>170 posts and 29 image replies omitted

lel

>>4957153
>farming is a multi-generational thing in countries young as the US
Most farmland is owned by large business, not families.

>What are they supposed to do for work?
Why would they be out of work again? Farms grow plants. No one is banning plants.

>>4957168
What about it?

>>4957145
looking bad for what reason? you're the one who made a statement he cannot back up and are not using nothing but words like "obviously" to try to back it up.
>Citing possibly the toughest athlete in the world in support of a claim about what athletes do is not "appeal to authority
actually, it does. His being a good athlete does not equate to him being right on all to do with sports. seriously, look up the definition and tell me how it's not. sad thing is, this isn't even the stupidest thing you've said in this thread.

>>4957167
So you are suggesting we kill off 99% of humanity and become hunter gatherers so that our original high caloric diet is relevant again?

>>4957151
Are you fucking retarded?
evolutionary wise our physically is still of the past.

>>4957126
>we evolved into logically thinking animals is because of a switch to a meaty diet?

What diet did we evolve from before that though? I guarantee you it wasn't a meat based diet and you don't just go from one end of the spectrum to the far fucking end of it.

Further we know that evolution doesn't care what's good for us so long as we survive to reproductive age. A diversified diet has extreme benefits that being the case.

>do you think we still haven't adapted to eating meat yet?

You're asking me if an omnivorous species with characteristics closer to a plant eater hasn't adapated to eating meat? You're retarded, all I have ever been talking about is what percentages meat and plants diets should/did consist.

Ancient man didn't only eat plants when they were in season because of a biological preference for meat. He didn't eat plants in winter because there were no edible plants in winter.

>>4957184
>dat huge strawman
why are you switching this to caloric intake anyways? everyone was criticizing your original point that we are not built to deal with meat. that has nothing to do with our caloric needs. stop trying to change the subject.

>>4957182
Are you 14?

>people still using evolutionary arguments for why we should do things

Guys, the purpose of evolution is to go forwards not backwards, i think we might be able to figure out how we wanna do shit without waiting 1,000,000 years for it to happen over time

>>4957174

>Most farmland is owned by large business, not families.

You're saying that there aren't any multi-generational families of farmers regardless of who buys their produce?

>Why would they be out of work again? Farms grow plants. No one is banning plants.

Why would there be cow farms and the other farms that support their needs? No cows and the market for their feed drops like a stone, again offsetting more families.

How do we transition without causing a lot of harm to people? Just because there is lab grown meat on the market doesn't mean that cow farms will be discontinued, so your solution to stopping the slaughter is ineffective at best.

>>4957210
Oh yeah, perfectly executed and logical comeback there. Next you should call him a fag and question his ability to procreate with women.

Its like I'm watching a debate at Harvard here

>>4956678
LURK MOAR

>>>/b/

>>4957196
>What diet did we evolve from before that though? I guarantee you it wasn't a meat based diet
what does the fact that we didn't eat meat before that have to do with anything?
>you don't just go from one end of the spectrum to the far fucking end of it
i never suggested we did. If i'm understanding this right, you think i'm suggesting a meat only diet? i never did such a thing.
>Further we know that evolution doesn't care what's good for us so long as we survive to reproductive age
but evolution does care about making you better suited to your environment. if we've been eating meat for 4 million years, claiming we haven't adapted to it is stupid.

>>4957210
are you even trying anymore? you have completely given up trying to even argue logically anymore and resorted to simply insults. this is no longer a discussion if you do that. i consider this concluded.

>>4957184
No.
I am suggesting we mimic the diet as realistically as possible

Fat intake high, protein intake high, carb intake low as it was before.

we don't live in the past but our physically does, and since we live in a time when all our nutritionally needs are mass produced there is no fucking point in killing 99% of humanity and become hunter gatherers, but to "mimic" it is logical.

By the why do you think our caloric was anything close to as high as 15,000? we hunted in groups we shared the whole meal within are social communities if anything it was lower.

>>4957194
I'm not "I'm not you".

Meat provides greater caloric density. That is why it helped us get bigger brains. We now are sedentary thus can support our huge brains without meat.

The only thing the human body needs that one can't get from plants is B12, but no one is this thread has advocated vegetarianism, just a reduction of meat consumption.

>>4957223
I'd say that "debate" pretty much speaks for itself. He does sound like he's underage. Or maybe just new to /sci/.

>>4957182
sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=keri/080616

Athletes don't exist in a vacuum they're subject to superstition and tradition. Most athletes still eat high meat protein diets because that's all they know not because it gives them a performance edge. As more athletes learn about vegetarian diets, and that it's possible to succeed with them, we'll see more of them

At that point we can talk about comparing the performance of the two diets but as far as I know there haven't been studies done on the comparative results yet.

>>4957214
That's great and all, but we can't cause our bodies to perform optimally on a certain diet just because we want them to for ideological reasons.

>>4957223
>Its like I'm watching a debate at Harvard here
i'm not sure what this means. are debates at Harvard that low-level?

>>4957236
trololo just because Prince Fielder is the home run champ doesn't mean he's the authority on diet
you guys are so dum
i'm 14
i'm gay

>>4957230
>By the why do you think our caloric was anything close to as high as 15,000? we hunted in groups we shared the whole meal within are social communities if anything it was lower.
It was ridiculously high because we evolved for persistence hunting, where one literally runs all day. The entire tribe didn't run for kill, but they still spent much more than 2,000 Calories a day. Everyone contributes to the group, be it hunting animals or gathering food from kilometers around. I'd say 10,000-15,000 is pretty accurate, but that is just me guessing. I don't know how many Calories one burns by running all day.

>Fat intake high, protein intake high, carb intake low as it was before.
I think it it relevant that humans didn't live long past 30 years back then, that's why that's the point the human body begins to degrade. The body isn't equipped to deal with high cholesterol diets long after the age of 30 or 40 years.

>>4957254

>>4957267
And we don't want you here, so it's a win-win

>>4957238
You mean optimally for hunting and gathering. We need to engineer a diet for our new lifestyle.

Where do we get vitamin B12 from?

>>4957274
Meat and supplements. No one is advocating vegetarianism, so get out of your well practiced anti-vegetarian argumentative mode. That goes for all of you.

>>4957218
>How do we transition without causing a lot of harm to people?

We don't and trying to prevent change just so people can remain employed is luddite territory.

>>4957262
not him, but running is fairly inexpensive calorie wise. persistence hunting is about 20 miles. for a 150 pound person, a mile burns 75 calories (not including the calories spent during that time by normal metabolic rate.) that's 1500 calories to catch one animal and they didn't hunt everyday, more like once a week. a 10000-15000 daily calorie requirement seems extremely far off. also, persistence hunting was not the hunting method we maintained. hunting with spears and other tools is still a fairly old method.

>>4957285
Or just supplements, or seaweed, or spirulina, or brewer's yeast...

Don't act like being vegetarian (or advocating it) is a bad thing.

>>4957302
>persistence hunting is about 20 miles
Source? I would have thought other animals could run more than 20 miles before collapsing.

>>4957262
Net Calories
if i burn 3,000 doing something then eat 3,000 worth of food i need to eat 3,000 more calories to to eat 3,000 cals for the day

>I think it it relevant that humans didn't live long past 30 years back then, that's why that's the point the human body begins to degrade. The body isn't equipped to deal with high cholesterol diets long after the age of 30 or 40 years.

Actually an high fat diet lowers cholesterol

>>4957309
I didn't. Not focus on contributing to the OP's topic.

>>4957273
Ok , simple sugars and quick energy sure isn't one.

>>4957320
Meat does not reduce cholesterol.

>>4957288

...right. I'm saying that if we don't go about it right, people who have every right to protect their way of life will resort to luddite tactics for the exact reasons that the originals did.

It's really asinine to just ignore it. And like i said, artificial meat won't end the beef industry. It won't even dent it because no one will eat what will be quickly branded as "soulless" meat.

God help them if anyone ever gets sick from it. That'll end it for good right there.

>>4957285
politicised much?
>>4957309
Can't readily buy seaweed or spirulina at a supermarket.

RDA of b12 is 2.5 mcg a day

yeast extract only has 0.03 mcg per teaspoon, you would need to eat half a kilo and the vegemite/marmite connoiseurs out there will inform you that it only tastes good when mixed in small quantities in a sauce or spread thinly, which has lead to the erroneous belief that you either love it or hate it, which is not the truth, most love it, they just don't treat it as a seasoning as they should

http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/7852?qlookup=yeast+extract&fg=&format=&man=&l
facet=&max=25&new=1

>>4957227
>what does the fact that we didn't eat meat before that have to do with anything?
Because a species doesn't go from 'not meat eater' to 'mostly meat eater'. It doesn't work that way the biology has to incrementally adapt. Humans still have characteristics closer to plant eaters than they do carnivores. The adaptation is still in transition to get to where you think we already are.

>claiming we haven't adapted to it is stupid.
Strawman. We have adapted to it, that's why we're omnivores. That doesn't excuse you suggesting that humans have eaten meat heavy diets for 4 million years. They haven't, they've eaten whatever the fuck is available and plants are far more common and easy to acquire than game.

>>4957333
Are you attempting a strawman?

>>4957341
>politicised much?
Wat?

>>4957341
Dude. A fucking "One-a-Day" has all the B12 B3 B6 that you need.

This post pretty much answers everything that you're going to say from here on out: >>4956977

>>4957318
not in the heat. we're don't only have endurance, but we can sweat to get rid of heat much more easily.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting#Procedure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o&feature=related

>>4957341
>Can't readily buy seaweed or spirulina at a supermarket.
Yes you can, so long as your supermarket sells multi-vitamins. Spriulina is used in multi-vitamins.

>>4956678
>It doesn't make sense
>We are omnivores
>lrn2biology

>>4957359
Most animals sweat.

>>4957365
Read the thread. We aren't hunter gatherers anymore. What is best for hunter gatherer societies isn't necessarily best for a world feeding more than 7 billion people.

For gods' sake, did you even read the OP?!

>>4957341
Also, if you don't "readily" have access to seaweed, then I don't know where you live.

>>4957366
yes, but it is not specialized for heat dissipation. and certainly not to the degree we are, plus we don't have fur. Even animals like horses, who use sweat for heat dissipation, are not nearly as efficient as us. a horse sweats 4 times as much as we do to get rid of the same amount of heat.

>>4957231
>The only thing the human body needs that one can't get from plants is B12

Which is produced by bacteria anyways so eating large amounts of meat for only that reason would be far sillier than cultivating the bacteria themselves.

>>4957386
>but it is not specialized for heat dissipation
Yes it is. That is what sweat is for. It's not there to make my body look sparkly after working out, lol.

>certainly not to the degree we are
That is what you should have been arguing, that most animals aren't as efficient sweaters as humans.

>a horse sweats 4 times as much as we do to get rid of the same amount of heat.
Source?

>>4957398
Are you for, or against reducing humanity's meat consumption? For? Then stop arguing with posters who agree with you just because they contain the words "vegetarian" or "B12".

>>4957254
>Prince Fielder
>the only athlete in the article
>implying the article isn't about the growing number athletes going on a vegan diet
>implying this doesn't mean we'll soon have concrete data to study.

>>>/b/

>>4957382
I fucking did and I don't want to make you upset and all, but you are whining about fucking meat we there are much worse things going on in the world.

It's not like when we all stop eating meat everybody suddenly has enough food. Those fucking AFRICAN have had BILLIONS of dollars thrown at them and they did NOTHING they get food EVERY YEAR they want more EVERY YEAR, no wonder there is always someone at a family meetings saying that we should just BOMB THE PLACE, because that deals with it forever. And then I can eat my lovely piece of meat in PEACE.

So we are in agreement then!

We must significantly reduce meat consumption!

Huzzah!

>>4957418
you got trolled by a post that started with "trololo" and ended with "I'm gay."

Well played, sir. Well played, indeed.

Meat is highly inefficient.
>implying I give a fuck
> my face when bacon

I will point out that eating things like deer is ecologically useful.

>>4957423
There actually isn't all that much "going on in the world" that's worse than the meat industry. Granted, humans are capable of some horrendous things, like murder and rape and war... But meat really is destroying the entire planet, wholesale. I guess it all depends on how you measure just how "bad" something is.

>>4957399
>Yes it is. That is what sweat is for. It's not there to make my body look sparkly after working out, lol.
that's the reason that humans sweat, doesn't mean that's the reason all animals sweat. in fact, sweating as a method of heat dissipation is pretty uncommon. Care to name one that does it reliably other than humans and horses?
>That is what you should have been arguing, that most animals aren't as efficient sweaters as humans
no not really. the sweat part actually had very little to do with my point. the point was that claiming we needed 10000-15000 because of persistence hunting is ludicrous for various reasons. One of those reasons is that we prey only lasted for about 20 miles, which you found unbelievable and i chose to explain why it's not. Whatever the reason though, the fact remains we only needed about 20 miles, which isn't that energy intensive.
>Source?
i saw it a while back, don't really care to look for it since it's not relevant to my point. You're welcome to look up the efficiency if you want. but for a 10 second google search i found this. (not heat dissipation, but still efficiency).
>Electrolytes are lost in the sweat. Excessive sweat losses can cause an electrolyte imbalance, which rapidly leads to premature muscle fatigue, reduced stamina, muscle cramps and poor post exercise recovery, if not corrected. Horses lose about 3 times more sodium and up to 10 times more potassium in sweat than humans
http://www.athletic-animals.com/sweating.htm

>>4957423
>I fucking did and I don't want to make you upset and all, but you are whining about fucking meat we there are much worse things going on in the world.
I'm not going to spend any time arguing against the absurd notion that because there are nuclear weapons in the world we shouldn't pick up trash.

I get enough of that terrible excuse for reasoning from people who say NASA is a waste of money.

>>4957354
You immediately jump to saying I am in "anti-vegetarian mode" just because I asked about vitamin b12. Seems pretty politicised to me.
>>4957358
>>4957362
60 year old inuits have veins as springy as a 20 year old because of the amount of selenium in seal blubber that they ingest. This is an example of how consuming high levels of essential vitamins of minerals can have a positive effect. Multi-vitamins only have an effect in people already deficient in one particular mineral. People with a normal diet, with plenty of protein from meat, don't have this problem.
>>4957379
Britain isn't renowned for it's culinary prowess.

>>4957340
>people who have every right to protect their way of life

No they don't have the right to prevent the rest of us from living healthier and more sustainably just so they can remain employed.

I'm not going to muddy the waters just to protect their feelings here, there's no need to do it.

>>4957458
I'm not saying that because. But now science is taking away the thirds most thing I love in this world. Meat. I'm not going to let that happen. And if you want to eat like a vegetarian that is your deal, but you shouldn't force it upon others.

shut up you nigger-loving hippie, how the fuck am i gonna get swole if all i can eat are nigger-loving hippie beans and rice

vegetarian here
all of you are fat as shit
enjoy dying at your 50 / 70
and having ugly fat kids
t-thats all

>>4957478
squatz and oatz bitch nigga. do you even lift?

>>4957354
you immediately jump to saying i am in "anti-vegetarian mode", seems pretty politicised to me
>>4957358
>>4957362
Where do multi-vitamins get their b12 from? Anyway, multi-vitamins seem to be overkill to me, they should remove vitamins that are in every food anyway, reduce the amount which are malabsorbed at such high concentrations and add minerals like selenium that are actually beneficial in large quantities.
>>4957379
Britain is not renowned for it's culinary prowess.

>>4957452
>that's the reason that humans sweat, doesn't mean that's the reason all animals sweat. in fact, sweating as a method of heat dissipation is pretty uncommon. Care to name one that does it reliably other than humans and horses?
I was claiming that sweat is primarily used for heat dissipation, disagreeing with your apparent claim that sweat is often used for things other than heat dissipation. You are the only one who can give examples. :\

>no not really. the sweat part actually had very little to do with my point. the point was that claiming we needed 10000-15000 because of persistence hunting is ludicrous for various reasons. One of those reasons is that we prey only lasted for about 20 miles, which you found unbelievable and i chose to explain why it's not. Whatever the reason though, the fact remains we only needed about 20 miles, which isn't that energy intensive.
Sorry, but I wasn't arguing about anything like that. I think you are going too far back into the thread. We've been talking about sweat and nothing but sweat for several rounds now and I have nothing to say about anything else. Link to other posts if you want to argue about past topics more. :P

>http://www.athletic-animals.com/sweating.htm
Much appreciated.

>>4957409
Wasn't arguing, was reinforcing.

>>4957495
>you immediately jump to saying i am in "anti-vegetarian mode", seems pretty politicised to me
Why else would you be arguing against vegetarianism, lol? My best explanation is that you saw a thread about not eating meat and you started posting the same stuff you've posted in vegetarian threads.

>>4957495
>Where do multi-vitamins get their b12 from?
Seaweed and bacteria.

>>4957437
I take everything seriously.
I am a serious guy.
No fun allowed.

>>4957509
Then might I suggest beginning such posts with the word "this" in the first line?

>>4957495
>they should remove vitamins that are in every food anyway
But that is the entire purpose of multi-vitamins.

> Where do multi-vitamins get their b12 from?
Depends on which ones you get. Some are clearly marked "vegan" and some aren't.

> Anyway, multi-vitamins seem to be overkill to me
Ok... but they're not overkill if you need a source of B12. Don't act like getting too much vitamin Q in your multivitamin is the one thing that's holding you back from eating less meat.

>>4956678
>The suffering of non-human animals aside
I would say that the suffering of the animals is actually the biggest issue.
I would not have a problem with eating meat that was grown in a laboratory, and was never part of an animal.
All of the other points you mentioned are also important factors as well, but in my opinion, the pain of conscious beings does trump these.

EGGS
.

>>4957460
>People with a normal diet, with plenty of protein from meat, don't have this problem.

They just have a whole lot of other problems, without even getting started on the ecological damage caused in the name of getting them their 6 24 ounce steak dinner

>>4957477
>but you shouldn't force it upon others.

Fuck you it's trashing the water supply, air quality, and effectiveness of medication.

>>4957497
it's used for various other reasons like getting rid of nitrogenous waste or battle dry skin or whatever. Dogs for example, sweat through their pads but their method of heat dissipation is panting. Most animals do sweat yes, but humans and horses are one of the few to use sweat as their specialized form of heat dissipation which is what gives them an edge as panting is not as efficient specially if you are not allowed to take breaks as in persistence hunting.
>Sorry, but I wasn't arguing about anything like that. I think you are going too far back into the thread
i was arguing about this point >>4957262 and that the only point i wished to correct which i feel I have. if that is not you, i apologize (although it is common courtesy to say "not him" due to anonymity and to avoid confusion.)
as for the particulars of sweat, they are not ones i really care about and would prefer to not continue a side-track argument.

>>4957535
>I would say that the suffering of the animals is actually the biggest issue.
/sci/ doesn't give a damn about your sense of morality. The environment is important because it is important to humanity, not the other way around.

>>4957477
Nobody is forcing anything upon you.
Being vegetarian or not is your decision to make.
Science will not 'take meat away'.

>>4957568
You can not speak for all of /sci/.
It is unlikely that I am the only one here who cares about the suffering of animals.
Remember that Humans are animals as well.

>>4957574
>It is unlikely that I am the only one here who cares about the suffering of animals.
WHY do you care about animals? Your morality has nothing to do with humanity and science.

>>4957535
>I would say that the suffering of the animals is actually the biggest issue.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-112942/Plants-talk-say-scientists.html

>>4957576
I care about them because they feel pain and are capable of suffering. I think that pain and suffering should be avoided if it can be, and not just for humans.

>>4957583
Plants do not have a nervous system.
They do not feel pain.

>>4957589
They respond to damage, same thing as feeling pain.

>>4957589

Then we just need to breed cows and pigs that do not feel pain, problem solved.

>>4957598
It is different.
They do not have a nervous system like complex animals do.
Bacteria also respond to damage.

I'm in favor of the lab-grown meat idea.
>easier to mod for nutrition and taste
>in theory, more variety of animals to eat from such as panda
>more efficient and better for the environment than regular meat

>>4957589
>I think that pain and suffering should be avoided if it can be, and not just for humans.
Why?

>>4957599
It is not just pain that is the Issue.
Even if I remove all of your nociceptor cells, if I place you in a tiny box and do not allow you to move, or to have communication with your own kind, or to experience a good quality of life in any way, and all I do is to feed and water you, then you will suffer psychologically even without physical pain.

I think the government should just stop supporting meat in an artificial manner. This would force the price of meat so high that vegetable protein could compete. Even now vegetaple protein is cheaper, but with loss of government subsidies to meat, people would really see how wasteful producing meat is.

>>4957604
>>in theory, more variety of animals to eat from such as panda

>>4957602
>They do not have a nervous system like complex animals do.
So where in the gradual evolution of animals did it become ABSOLUTELY WRONG to harm them?

>>4957613
The government gives subsidies to the meat industry? I had no idea. Source?

>>4957605
Why do you think Humans are so special if we are just another type of animal?
96% of our DNA is shared with Chimpanzees.
They feel pain like we do.
Most mammals have very similar nervous pathways as well.

>>4957507
you have to get your vitamin b12 in though
>>4957512
You sure do love that seaweed.
>>4957528
Reduce the cost? So they don't have to go through the trouble of extracting something and putting it in the pill. It's like extracting pure water from cucumbers to sell the water.

>>4957616
I do not know.
With very slowly continually changing things like this, it is very difficult to place an absolute moral barrier in between what is right and what is wrong.

For example. Most people consider it ethical to terminate a very recent pregnancy. Most people consider it unethical to terminate a pregnancy if the woman is only hours away from going into labour.
For all the days in between these events, where would you draw the line?

Most people consider it immoral to have sexual intercourse with a 1 year old baby. Most people consider it moral to have sexual intercourse with an 18 year old adult.
For all the days in between these events, where would you draw the line?

Morality is not an easy subject.

>>4957621
>Why do you think Humans are so special if we are just another type of animal?
Because other animals can't communicate nor can they retaliate in an organized fashion. Civilization benefits all humans and civilization requires civil interaction between humans, not other animals.

I don't have a moral code. I will keep pressing this issue until we find the end of your reasoning, because that is what morality is, the point at which one no longer wants to rationalize their beliefs.

>>4957624
>you have to get your vitamin b12 in though
Sorry, but I don't see how that is an answer to my question.

>>4957624
>You sure do love that seaweed.
You sure love asking questions answered by seaweed.

>>4957633
>Because other animals can't communicate
This is not true at all.

>nor can they retaliate in an organized fashion.
This is also not true.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3__L0oAa2T8

>Civilization benefits all humans
No it does not. Some people are exploited.

>civilization requires civil interaction between humans, not other animals.
Other animals are not completely separate entities in civilisation. We keep dogs and cats, and many other pets. We keep other animals for farming. We use insects on our crops.

>I don't have a moral code.
You do. You are just not fully aware of what it is yet.

>I will keep pressing this issue until we find the end of your reasoning
So be it.

>>4957624
>Reduce the cost? So they don't have to go through the trouble of extracting something and putting it in the pill. It's like extracting pure water from cucumbers to sell the water.
Some people need one vitamin while other need another. It's not cheaper to have a tailored mineral and vitamin supplement for every single person. That's why multi-vitamins are so popular.

>>4957642
>This is not true at all.
That doesn't matter. Communication was simply an example as to why they cannot be integrated into our civilization, because that would be the only reason they would NEED to be treated morally, that or if an alien civilization who is much smarter than us sees our use of other animals as an excuse to use us in the same fashion.

>No it does not. Some people are exploited.
Exceptions are just that, exceptions. If most of humanity didn't benefit then they should stop taking part in civilization.

>You do. You are just not fully aware of what it is yet.
Did you not read the rest of my post before typing that? Morality is where one fails to rationalize one's actions and opinions. I can rationalize every action I take (when my willpower serves me) and every opinion I hold.

Now please answer my previous quesiton. Why do you think that pain and suffering should be avoided if it can be?

>>4957661
>That doesn't matter.
It does matter.
Your post was demonstrably incorrect in several ways.

>Morality is where one fails to rationalize one's actions and opinions.
You do not understand what morality is. All humans have it. Would you like to be murdered? Should you be murdered? Why? Why not? What do you think should happen if another Human attempts to do so? Why?

>Why do you think that pain and suffering should be avoided if it can be?
Because I do not think that conscious beings should be made to suffer. I think if we lived in a world where conscious being suffered all the time, it would be a horrible existence to be in.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,,-83446,00.html

Oh no! We better start scooping dirt off the floor and hope we can absorb its nutrients!

>>4957618

http://www.pcrm.org/good-medicine/2007/autumn/health-vs-pork-congress-debates-the-farm-bill

The problem is, with huge goverment support to corn and soy (the main crops used for livestock feed), as well as some support to meat industry itself, the overall price of animal production is relatively low. If this wasn't the case, for example if most people ate vegetable protein, you would need only approximately 10% of the current area to farm those crops (10 kg of crops fed to animals = 1 kg of meat), and as a consequence that area of agriculture would only get 10% of the subsidies it is now getting. Of course, the agricultural sector would shrink considerably if indeed everyone was a vegetarian, which would spare a lot of taxpayers money (20 billion a year to agriculture).

>>4957671
>Your post was demonstrably incorrect in several ways.
Are you waiting to give examples for dramatic effect? LOL
It doesn't matter. We can drop it.

>You do not understand what morality is.
I've told you what morality is, you have yet to tell me what you believe it is.

>Because I do not think that conscious beings should be made to suffer.
Why? And when does one consider a system "conscious"? When in the evolution of life did a conglomeration of atoms become "conscious"? Do you even have definition?

Am I wrong in wanting definitions of the words you are using? Because I predict your avenue of argumentation is going to rely heavily on the grey area within words like "morality" and "consciousness". No offense meant, it's just my personal experience.

>>4957675
Why do they give so much money? What's the purpose?

>>4957696
>Why do they give so much money? What's the purpose?

Artificially lower the price of a specific food without cutting into the profits of that specific food's producers.

>>4957711
The government could do that for any company. Why the meat industry?

>>4957715
Who feeds the populous of people who go out and work everyday who intern give the Government money?

>>4957720
*In turn

>>4957720
>intern
I belive it is "in turn", lol.

I guess that makes sense. I suppose the reason they subsidize the meat industry is simply a product of what Americans eat. If we had eaten less meat in the past they most likely would have subsidized other crops.

>>4957715
Lobbying.

Meat is how we exploit marginal land, increasing our food supply, and convert surpluses of staple grains into luxury products, increasing our food security.

It's because of "wasteful" meat production practices that we could have a global weather patterns that reduces crop yields to one tenth of what they are for several years, and there would still be enough food around that nobody would need to starve to death.

>>4957762
The government must have an excuse though, some reason that industry deserves money above all others.

>>4957764
This threat does not apply in the present time, in developed nations.

>>4957769
It was originally about preventing farmers from going broke due to competition driving the prices down. It has since mutated into what is today.

>>4957764
The land quality doesn't matter. Growing human food crops always feed more people than growing cattle feed, feeding cattle, and then eating the cattle.

>convert surpluses of staple grains into luxury products
You are correct, the monetary value for the grower for growing cattle feed is real, but increasing cereal production would increase the amount of cereal that gets into the hands of the people starving across the world, and as stated in the original post, meat production severally harms public health.

>>4957775
Do you really think developed nations are immune from drought?

You silly, silly motherfucker

>>4957775
>It was originally about preventing farmers from going broke due to competition driving the prices down. It has since mutated into what is today.
Competition? Do you mean American meat producers competing with foreign meat producers? Or is this related to the whole corn syrup versus sugar cane thing?

>>4957775
>This threat does not apply in the present time, in developed nations.
Sure. Specifically because we dramatically overproduce food. And we fund it by feeding the excess to livestock, and enjoying delicious meat.

The reality is that large-scale weather patterns that badly fuck up farming for a whole continent all at once happen sometimes. Not very often, but not never either.

Someday, that's going to happen to us, and when it does, we're going to bitch about the price of meat, eat more grains and pulses, feel bad when we hear on the news about all the farmers going broke, and otherwise not really be bothered.

Because we're being "wasteful" now.

>>4957671
Figures, they always run when they can't come up with an answer.

>>4957781
Times since the last world war when there has been nothing but meat on the shelves:

>>4957778
>The land quality doesn't matter. Growing human food crops always feed more people than growing cattle feed, feeding cattle, and then eating the cattle.
Not all land is suitable for growing human food crops.

Can you eat grass?

>>4957785
Referring to the corn and soy industries which eat most of the subsidies as they're the primary food source for farm animals. They used the subsidies in the past to propel themselves to their current position as such.

>>4957786
>for a whole continent

>globalization

>>4957801
>Not all land is suitable for growing human food crops.
[citation needed]

>>4957801
>Not all land is suitable for growing human food crops.
>Can you eat grass?
Yes, it's called cereal mutha fuku.

But seriously, cereals are grass. Humans eat grass. You can grow human food crops anywhere you can grow cattle feed.

>>4957844
I don't know whether to be more disgusted that you assume that "cereals are grasses" is some kind of a revelation, or that you seriously think that "'eating cereals grains' means the same thing as 'eating grass'" is a reasonable semantic argument.

>>4957860
Mind you, "You can grow human food crops anywhere you can grow cattle feed." has got to be in the running for the dumbest thing in that post.

>>4957860
The fault is in the question, not the answer.

>>4957865
>Mind you, "You can grow human food crops anywhere you can grow cattle feed." has got to be in the running for the dumbest thing in that post.
So you say, and yet you have yet to provide a source on your claim that cattle feed can be grown in places that no human food produce could.

>Mind you, "You can grow human food crops anywhere you can grow cattle feed." has got to be in the running for the dumbest thing in that post.
So you say, and yet you have yet to provide a source on your claim that cattle feed can be grown in places that no human food produce could.

>>4957627
That last example is kind of terrible, because there is an age where most humans reach sexual maturity.