/sci/ - Science & Math

>>4733597
yup, that's about the size of it
"sanity is the unerring comitment to reality"
what's your point?

for one thing, pascals wager isnt a choice because if an omniscient god exists, she knows your faking belief on the off-chance that she might be real, so she'd see past it
the fact is that i just aint gullible enough to accept any religion.
so it aint a choice
also this
<<<

which god to bet on?

That's if your specific religion is right
What about the other million of them?

also this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU

basically it just sums up what I just said in my last post, but with more detail.
its a good video on pascals wager, i recommend it.

Actually, being an atheist is the safest choice. If you had actually read the Bible, you would know that worshipping false gods is way worse than not worshipping at all. The chance that you happen to pick the right god to worship is astronomically low, so it's best to ignore them all.

>>4733658
huh, i guess so
<<<

pic related

oh ek u so silly

Also the 'eternal joy' and 'eternal suffering' side of the equation are not (cannot be?) proven, the best evidence we have is for 'nothing' both before and after. who knows - mebbe the real god will just say "well, you didn't believe in me, but I forgive you for your debauched life anyway. Here, enjoy your 72 virgins.".
Obviously Pascal's wager is a cop-out, you're betting the gods will take a bribe.

>implying just believe in take you there
>implying is not more important your acts

if i am wrong and really there is a god. he, god, must to be superior to this shit and judge people by what they have done based on their individuality. I do not believe in the because i choose, all my family are religious, i actually do not know any atheist like me, and i am atheist from 7 years old. but my life is not a orgy or way of sin. i have a normal life, if you consider christianity, the religion i most know about and their follower, i am more christ like than the christians. christians are full of bullshit about hate the other and judge the others, unlike christ. so, if there is a god he most to be bigger than all this, then everyone will end up in hell, if it exist.

oh god, people actually responding. sad.

Why can't you guys simply accept that beliving in a god is a choice, nothing more nothing less.

The wager argument only works if u make many assumptions.

For instance whats the probability that "your" god exists? Is it 1 or does he almost surely not exist?

Does he care that you worship him "only with lip and body and not with soul"?

What is his stand on believing in other gods?

>>4733597
OP is a fag

This whole things is called Euler's Paradox (yes, math guy Euler).
An atheist and a theist both lived to 80 and died at 80. If there was an afterlife, the theist would go to heaven for believing, while the atheist goes to hell.
Theist: 1
Atheist: -1

BUT
if there is no afterlife, and the atheist was right, then neither get any benefit or loss.
Theist: nothing
Atheist: nothing

>>4733724
fuckshitdamnit it's not Euler its Pascal.
I am a dumb.

>>4733710
it isnt a choice though

think of it this way, are you capable of making yourself believe in santa claus? honestly?
for most of us, the answer is no, we know santa isnt real, we know its impossible, we could PRETEND to believe, but like i said before, an omniscient god will know you're pretending, even if you manage to fool every human on earth into thinking you're truly and deeply religious.

>>4733597
How about this, faggot:
"I don't fucking CARE one way or the other, you're wasting everyone's time with your pointless prattle"

>>4733724
no benefit *after*life, but plenty of benefit *during* life for not having spent 8 decades in self-delusion.

>>4733597
It really depends what sort of person you are.
If you are willing to kiss ass of the most vile being that has ever existed just to save your ass, then you're should believe, but if you are unwilling to be a bitch of this vile being, even if it means hell, then atheism is a place for you.
Pascal's wager fully works only on egocentrics.

>>4733728
First of all would god care if you didn't really believe?

Also ofc you can make yourself believe, same way you can believe anything else.
Do you truly believe that the world is round? I do. (i am well aware that i cannot be 100, but i still believe it)

>>4733731
actually, if hell was real it'd be damn worth caring about!
can you imagine how horrible it'd be to burn for ever and ever?
just holding your hand over a candle flame for a few seconds becomes unbearable very quickly.
you'd suffer INFINITE MILLENIA of burning all over your body for ever and ever, and you'd never get used to it, it'd always feel as bad as it ever did
If hell was real, finding a way to avoid it would absolutely be the best use of your time.
but theres no evidence of it being real, and ITT we already see the flaws with pascals wager, so best to just be sceptical and hope we're right.
aint exactly any way to stack the odds in our favour with guessing at a particular deity.

>>4733752
i dunno, some gods do, some dont.
if jahweh is the real one, he certainly does
so does allah, jehovah, etc. probably several others.
so we just have to hope they aint real.

no, belief still isnt a choice.
you cant suddenly force yourself into believing that the world is flat, with no evidence.
you can only pretend to, thats my point.

>>4733760
Unless you are sure, or sure enough, the deity you place your bets on is the real one. (which is how you should view religious people)

>>4733772
they arnt really sure though
<<<
its mainly based on the community they live in, what their parents believe, what the religion of the country is that they happen to be born in.

the odds arnt higher for them than anyone else.
they arnt really sure, even if they think they are.
their confidence is misplaced.

>>4733770
How did i start believing that the world was round then? Was i born believing that?

Also half my point with the "do all the things and god will like you" is that if you do all the things you are supposed to you will probably start to believe in god. (i don't but i never go to church).

Also please don't say you are one of those retards that think morality can exist without a god.... (or sure we can define it, but then it is pointless).

>Atheist believe theist believe in different Gods
Unless you count christianity as a polytheistic religion then every monotheistic religion believes in the same god

>>4733760
>and hates gays
Literally laughing so hard I almost fell of my chair.

All of these images have one, massive problem with them-they all assume that every single religion in existence thinks that non-believers go to hell.

It's funny how atheists can be so much more educated then theists about religion, and still completely fail to understand that not every religion is Christianity.

>>4733780
Sure what they believe most likely depend on what they were taught but does that make the belief any less real?

How can you know that their confidence is misplaced? How is your judgement any better than theirs?

>>4733597

>>4733770
angsty 5 year old atheist
>mom, theres nothing wrong with killing people, why shouldnt I do it
mom
>No, killing people is wrong and I forbid you to do it. You'll understand when youre ready
angsty 5 year old atheist
>NOPE, I choose morality over what you say

>>4733792
Each monotheistic religion has different beliefs and stories about their one god. Every permutation of god must be counted as a separate possibility.

>>4733787
no, you were taught, you'll have seen maps, globe models, satelite photography. several sources of evidence all confirming each other.

a lot of religious people fortify their faith the same way, but none of it's true evidence.
they get more confident if lots of their friends and family all believe, and all talk about it, and strengthen each others beliefs.
theres also the fear of ostracisation for rejecting the belief that all your friends and family share
even the risk of death if your a muslim in a fundamentalist country who wants to give up the faith.

>do all the things and god will like you
different religions, different things your supposed to do.
you cant follow them all.

>Also please don't say you are one of those retards that think morality can exist without a god.
nope, so i take it you didnt read/understand the pic in the image you just replied to?

>>4733799
>atheism
>advancement

Atheism isn't based in logic... it's based in faith. I have complete faith that there is no God. none of your logic can convince me otherwise.

>>4733792
But the bible (for example) says the only way to god is through Jesus. It dosen't matter if the abrahamic god is the same the religious doctrine is different.

>>4733792
nope
in christianity, god has a son, and:
'the only way into the kindom of heaven is through me' -jesus

allah has no son
the religions arnt compatible even if they're similar.

>>4733787

Lol what an idiot.

>Thinks morality can't exist without a God

Stupid is stupid. Ultimate morality can't exist without a God, but morality sure as hell can. Do you really believe any religion has given us morals that mankind didn't already develop without religion? Do you really think that without a God people would be killing and raping 24/7?

Any moral advancement during the last 200 years is due to secular growth. Its due to intelligent people telling religatards that there outdated modes of thinking are antiquated. Religion didn't do away with slavery, racism, etc. Secular society did.

tl;dr your an idiot. Morality comes from human solidarity, not cosmic sky daddies.

>>4733804
Your Atheism is showing.
Lets start with the three big ones, Christfags, Islamfags, and the Jews. Each begins with Genesis. No matter what discrepancies they may have in INTERPRETATION of the books, each believe that YWH is god.

If you have another God in mind then I'll happily engage is the philosophical argument of how they are the same God.

>>4733802
basic "moral" code of a free society: right to live, right to justly acquire property and the right to remain free.

a kid trying to kill someone else will be shot by the guy trying to defend his right to live.


Morality is independent of religion

>>4733810
>But the bible (for example) says the only way to god is through Jesus. It dosen't matter if the abrahamic god is the same the religious doctrine is different.

No it doesnt. This is where the religions differ. Each interprets it differently.

>>4733795
not every religion.
i know some christians that think all good people, atheists agnostics muslims whatever, they all get into heaven
but thats got nothing to do with the bible, and its not central christian dogma

in fact if you read the bible theres something like only 700 places in heaven, i forget the actual figure, but kudo's to anyone who knows chapter and verse for this, becuase its quite interesting.
obviously christians dont follow the bible to the letter anyway, but to not follow the bible, and to then make up other stuff about who god may or may not let into heaven, it just doesnt make any sense. why make these stuff up without evidence just because you want it to be true, or just because its what you'd do if you were a god?

>>4733787
>those retards that think morality can exist without a god.... (or sure we can define it, but then it is pointless)
Feeling a bit opinionated, are we?

If you act moral out of fear, then you're not really a very nice person.

Atheists have a better reason to act moral. We know that acting like a douche is a pretty dick thing to do. So we stop acting like douches so that we wouldn't be so dickish to other people.

>>4733816
>Genesis is the only book in the bible.

>“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

>>4733812
If I thought that my mother was Brazillian but she was Japanese instead, does that mean that I dont exist.

>>4733806
First how are those evidents? Read the bible it says God exists, there are many other texts that also talk about the existence of God. What makes the books about the world being round so much more believable than the bible?

obviously i meant do all the things the god you choose tells you to do. Also we agree on that you gain faith by being around the faithful....

The picture (if i understand it) implies that religions contradicts morality (aka you can't be both moral and religious).

I believe the exact opposite of that (you can't be moral unless you are religious).

>>4733796
im not doubting the strength of their belief, but considering all the thousands of religions, and all the trillions of potential exclusive religions that COULD be supposed, the odds of them being correct are extremely low, even if we were certain some sort of religion was correct

then you have to factor in the lack of evidence for any sort of god at all, a god magically existing forever; having no origin, all the magic and miracles that supposedly happened. are these just ALL metaphorical? and if so, for what purpose?
its just more sensible to not believe in supernatural phenomena unless you experience some evidence of it.

>>4733826
First book. Each agree that YWH is god. Dont bother them about it. If you want to talk about how they believe in getting to YWH differently then thats a theological argument.

>>4733816
All those religions have different sects and different holy books with different teachings that contradict each other. In order to get to heaven you must blindly follow completely different dogma that is often mutually exclusive.

>>4733820
I does say that.
>>4733826

When Jesus said "I am the only way to god" and other religious deny Jesus as the messiah that isn't a contradiction between religions?

Well I mean logically we should all be theists because of the proven health benefits... but it's really just a personal choice. You're not supposed to use logic in determining your religious beliefs.

>>4733836
see>>4733833
Im not saying they dont have discrepancies, but that doesnt mean they believe in different Gods.

>>4733814
agreed

can you imagine the townsmen sitting around waiting for moses to come down with the 10 commandments, and then he reads hem out:
"#5, thou shalt not kill"

"...oh...really? oh shit, sorry, we had no idea, i always thought it was totally fine. i just went around killing people every couple of weeks because i was bored.
sorry... just so i fully understand, am i NOT supposed to do that anymore? oh shit. ok then. wow, good thing you got these 10 commandments, moses! we had no fucking clue how to behave before you brought religious morality to us"

>>4733597

Yes, because reducing an INFINITE NUMBER OF SETS OF INFINITE NUMBER OF PROPOSITIONS ABOUT ALL POSSIBLE UNKNOWN STATE OF AFFAIRS to the op image is so fucking logical.

Jesus fucking christ how FUCKING retarded do you have to be? You don't have to smuggle any nonsense garbage argumentation about "omniscience" or anything to even dispute the retardation.

"Hey any number of 'metaphysical' entities might draw from any number of behaviorial and psychological modes out of a set of infinite possible such modes so maybe trying to gamble on something that's as abstract as set theory isn't a good fucking idea especially when we have no knowledge of the connection between our actions and the judgements of entities we have no actual knowledge of"

>>4733816

>>If you have another God in mind then I'll happily engage is the philosophical argument of how they are the same God.

My God is basically Azathoth from the Chthulu mythos. It is a blind, idiot mass who cares nothing for man. It hasn't prepared an afterlife for it's creations, and so every single sentient that comes into existence without care, and when it dies it's consciousness is snuffed out forever.

>>4733838
>reading King James rewritten Bible

You should change "nothing" in "you're wrong" to "every sunday of your life and 10% of your income wasted"

>>4733833

In Christianity Jesus is god incarnate, yet in other religions he is not. How can this still be the same god if they can't agree on this?

>>4733839
I think that an individual who is smart enough to realistically ponder that, is smart enough that he/she can find other reasons to be happy than throwing critical thinking to the dogs.

>>4733728
You can choose to "try" to believe in a God, and through events not under your control (e.g. massive acid trip, near-death experience) you could authentically believe in a God. Choice though? Eh. Gray area.

>>4733825
My points is merely that any morality we define is not absolute. And MY personal belief is that such morals are pointless since they are totally dependent upon your culture.
>>4733814
Why are these so obvious the moral thing? Obviously it must be moral to enslave and/or educate subhumans?
>>4733817
wot?

>>4733846
You mean "the most common translation" and yes. If most people, or even some people read it then it's relevant to the discussion.

>thinking things happen when you die

>oh, wait, this must be the dead me

>>4733848
>Jesus is god incarnate
You dont even into religion. Look up Christology and return.
Only trinitarian Christians believe that to begin with.
Also, all agree that YWH is god, don't bother them about it.

>>4733855
Interpretation. Do you no what it is. The only differences between the books is interpretation.