/sci/ - Science & Math

Going into space is useless for now. We should invest the money for better education instead.

Agreed with education post.

We're to stupid as a race at the moment. Aliens would laugh at us and dis-include us in their social gatherings for being the class retard.

I agree that the education system is TERRIBLE, but this is only 1 percent of the governments budget the petition is trying to use. Also, because of the stupidity of the human race I think it would be wise to have humans off planet in case a nuclear disaster occurs, or any other doomsday scenario.

>>4576596
>>4576608


What do you guys want except more money to be thrown at the problem?

I am in school now, I was on high school. I certainly dont feel like the problems in my education were due to lack of funding.

If anything I think we are getting too "educated." As in people are just sitting around in schools more and more and more and more resources are going into this massive day care program. I think the best thing might to be cut every one loose.

>>4576620

I was in high school***

>>4576620

I 'half' agree with you. I grew up in California, all the way until I was 21. Schools had so much to offer. Now, I live here in Penn and sometimes in West Virginia with my husband and his sister who is a teacher in WV doesn't even have a chalk board in the classroom and has to pay out of pocket for paints and pens and paper for her students. They do not even provide whiteboards... Now that is sad.

Anyways, what I believe is Teachers need to get paid solely based on how well each student does on their exit tests, I believe every grade level should have an exit test. I also believe that we should build some type of incentive for the student (and parent) that fits what grade level they are in so they WILL attend each day.

Like grade school students get a party hour or something each week if every student comes to class. Parents get fined or something if student misses more than 3 days of school. Just a suggestion.

>>4576588
I'd sign if the damned site was working right.

I think the education system would benefit from not being mandatory. Everyone needs to have at least a testable grasp of basic math, grammar/spelling, human history, and biology/science. After middle school kids should be free to decide what they want to do and ONLY learn that subject. Public education needs to be computerized and free.

>>4576658
FUUUUUU

How about a new question. The other day I was discussing with some comrades about the education system. We started talking about the distribution of passing and failing grades in rigorous math and engineering classes. One guy was arguing that grades should be reflective of your success in class relative to your peers. As in, every class will have a predetermined amount of failing grades. Me and another guy were arguing that standards should be absolute, like, to pass calculus you need to be able to meet some objective standard of skill in calculus.

What do you guys think? Whats your philosophy of education?

>>4576647

>I believe every grade level should have an exit test. I also believe that we should build some type of incentive for the student (and parent) that fits what grade level they are in so they WILL attend each day.

I dont know. I think if you incentivize attending class than you are encouraging people to go to school for the wrong reasons. Education should be a reward in itself.

I agree that we need exit tests, but I dont know that if you make education competitive between test scores, and you make it clear to teacher's that their success will depend on test scores you are necessarily getting a better education.

>>4576662

>I think the education system would benefit from not being mandatory

AGREE.

>>4576691

Shit thats me.

make students choose what they want to study, learn them to study things themselves without the need of teachers from young age

current "schooling" programs are modeled after the Christian detentions made to keep the growing middle class in line with the faith in the 18-1900's and need a total revamp to be successful

>>4576691
I Think one key point has been said here, that education should be a reward in itself. I did not receive good grades in school because I had no incentive to do the assigned work when I already understood the subject. I did the exact amount of work required to pass, usually relying on near perfect test scores.(thank you RUBRIC) Education was rewarding, but why do so much busywork if I already understand? I'm know I'm not the only one who thought school was terrible inefficient, I just wanted to learn not work.

>>4576691
>relative or absolute
Absolute. Failing just because others happen to be even better gives one a crooked world view.

>Education should be a reward in itself.
Yes, but incentives for the first few grades might be good in establishing that behavior. Or perhaps get more educational games, or make education itself a game. Little 'tards love hunting trophies and achievements.

>>4576691

Yeah, I hear what you're saying, just children now days are being brought up way differently than you or I have (I don't know how old you are, I am 24), children now days expect everything to be handed to them and easy or they seem like they just give up. If you give them a choice... of either having education or not succeeding in the world, half of them (exaggerating) will give up on education because it is too hard and it doesn't produce that instant gratification that people are too used to now.

>>4576716

By the way I am>>4576647

>>4576713
I agree that absolute is the best method for scoring, because your not trying to eliminate the weakest, your trying to teach. They pass the test if they understand the subject.

>>4576716

>half of them (exaggerating) will give up on education because it is too hard and it doesn't produce that instant gratification that people are too used to now.

That wouldnt be the worst thing in my opinion. I think that would be preferable to countries like Korea, where everyone has a bachelors and a masters degree doesnt mean anything.

I mean I dont hold it against people for being uneducated.

>>4576726
If you do that, you need to advocate meritocracy, or what you get will be USA of the last ten years TURNED UP TO ELEVEN!!!

>>4576588
>petitions
>doing anything at all
>the general public not being a bunch of mouthbreathing idiots who cannot into scientific/technological progress, thus getting very few votes
you're a funny guy OP

>>4576726

I suppose so, nor do I look down on anyone without a college degree either, my husband works on a gas rig for four years and came from being a worm to a driller and has not step foot in a classroom since high school and makes about $100k/yr. So you can make good money without being highly educated.

The way I look at it is that those same people with no extended education have a high tendency to pass down that attitude to their children, and their children will pass it down, etc. Also, those people are voting without exactly knowing how the world works past their blue collar jobs. So when a lot of people want to fund places such as NASA or whatever, when a bill gets placed in front of the voters they do not see the importance of it and just look at OMG I AM GOING TO HAVE MORE TAXES.

I don't know, I am the only one in my family going through college. My 21 year old brother doesn't even have a high school diploma or GED. I just look at them when I visit and I notice their way of thinking and wonder if their views would change if they all had more education.

>>4576749
But it's not about money you fucking retard. Pursuit of knowledge is a goal in itself. Don't you see the beauty of math and science? Ignorance cannot be tolerated, these people might be "good" people but at the end of the day they are holding back the progress of our society.

I cannot understand how anyone cannot hate blue collar laborers. Machines do their jobs better eventually anyways.

>>4576770

You obviously do not know how to read.
Perhaps start with the beginning of the tread and work your way down.

25,000 signatures only gets you a response from the administration, which will go something like, "no."

NASA has proven time and time again that it has vast inefficiently. Both internally and the fact that the government can kill any program they don't like regardless of international commitments. NASA needs direction and freedom from the government.

>The United States of Amurica
>Trillions of dollars in debt
>Expects a failing government to spend more money on an already canceled program

>2112

>>4576608
What makes you think these aliens we'll apparently meet in and around our own solar system are so damned smart? Universe is still pretty young you know.

>>4576770

Have you not read any other post I've made, you obviously do not know how to read. Go from the top of the thread and work your way down. I never said anything that supported 'money is the only way,' I gave an example.

1/10 for having me reply.

>>4576726
>>4576749
It's a tricky question. I think having a more educated populace is a good thing, but I'm not sure if universities are the best way of achieving it. To be quite honest, they seem to me to be a social sorting mechanism first, and a means of eduction second.

I guess what I'm getting at is, should something that gives great but intangible benefits come only at such a great price?

>>4576797
"educated' is a buzzword meaning "more brainwashed into marxism"

>>4576770
Why would I hate someone for the job they have? Seriously, most people have jobs they don't want because they can't afford to go to college for the degree they want. People are opportunistic. Imagine you're kicked out of the house at 18 and you could choose between thousands of dollars of debt in student loans or a construction job that takes no degree and makes enough money to afford a life. Once your in the cycle it's hard to get out. Don't hate someone for that. It's easy to have an elitist view, but remember that not everyone is presented with the same opportunities.

>>4576795
>missing the point still
The point is these people are the problem. I don't care how friendly they are. Only the highly intelligent, motivated, and educated should continue on.

That means not us two also.

>>4576800
Someone ban this fuckwit. There is a "Liberal farts" education, then there is a actual education. Learn the fucking difference, this board is /sci/, what do you think we think of those faggots in liberal farts?

>>4576699
>THOSE EVIL CHRISTIANS!!!

fuck off to reddit

>>4576691
Should just privatize the whole fucking system and let the free market work it out.

>>4576811

If you're so smart, why are you letting someone rustle your jimmies so damn hard? You came into this thread guns blazing, for what reason?

>>4576806
What do you mean 'continue on?' To space? I think we're just talking in general here.
>>4576811
Ignore him.

>>4576809
If that was the case I choose suicide. Don't drag everyone down with you. As a dysfunctional cog in the machine, I am subject to removal, and everyone else should feel the same way.

If you aren't helping society in a objective (discovery of knowledge) way you should get out. I don't care if you didn't get the "opportunity", if that is the case then you should get out regardless, don't ruin shit for everyone else.

>>4576813
Privatizing schools put the child's education in the hands of the parent. Have you ever met irresponsible parents? So many people would just put their kid in the cheapest school possible, and this would lead to an upper class education advantage. People start having elitist views like this guy here.>>4576770
Free public education is important. But it needs to break the paradigms of teacher/classroom/everyone learns at the slowest kids pace. Individual, computerized education would rock.

>>4576822
Of course to space, and beyond. The purpose of every existence is to further itself, and the more we understand the universe we live in the better we can propagate ourselves as a race.

Think about it. One day we will understand everything in the universe, and possibly have control over everything as well.

>>4576832
Are you seriously suggesting that parents don't want the best for their children?

Also: There could easily be things such as communities and greater "families", of course the government reserves coercion for itself, they don't want competing authorities.

>>4576823
So you think that individuals aren't important, just society as a whole. Do you think for yourself or do you let society think for you? So what your saying is, the only important task of the human race is to discover knowledge?

Have you no empathy? Most people just want to be happy.

I do agree completely with you on something though.. All physical labor on an industrial scale should/will be automated. Much more efficient.

>>4576847

I am not the guy you are talking to, but I believe that people always have great intentions for their children and either do not know how to give their children a great education or believe that any education is good enough. Some people only want good enough... sad for the children, but that is how some people are.

>>4576778

The fraction of our budget that goes to NASA is relatively small. We could probably handle budget problems AND increase spending to NASA at the same time.

>>4576813

>Should just privatize the whole fucking system and let the free market work it out.

We could do that... but...

1. I am not sure that people should have some say in what public education is. If we let people make judgements about what kind of education they want, then they might pick something bad, like creationism or something. By the very nature of being uneducated, you arent qualified to make the judgement.

I think this particularly applies to parents trying to pick the best schools for their kids. Probably isnt a big deal at all when it comes to self-motivated young adults

2. Its not fair. I mean, you can consider anything you want to be fair, but I, like many people, dont think education should only be available to those who can afford it. Taking a hands off approach doesnt give education to those who deserve it.

>>4576800

I still love you.

>>4576819
I am not that smart. I never claimed to be.

The reason I came in guns blazing is because I HATE THE WORLD WE LIVE IN. EVERY FUCKING DAY I HAVE TO PUT UP WITH STUPIDITY I SEE, AND THEN I LOOK TO MYSELF AND SEE NOT MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE.

if ONLY i was born much smarter, and more chramismatic. Then I could change the world we live in. Kill the plauge known as stupidity and ignorance. BUT NO. I have one life to live, and IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

THE NATURE OF EXISTENCE IS INJUSTICE. I HATE IT ALL.

>>4576864

I have a serious question for you, how old are you? It would help me so much to understand where you're coming from if I knew.

>>4576857
>>4576823
So you think that individuals aren't important, just society as a whole. Do you think for yourself or do you let society think for you? So what your saying is, the only important task of the human race is to discover knowledge?

Have you no empathy? Most people just want to be happy.

I do agree completely with you on something though.. All physical labor on an industrial scale should/will be automated. Much more efficient.

YOU are under the delusion that there is such thing as importance. Live to vanity right? Our existence is nothing but a automation, our individual feelings a primitive method to further our race. We have no need for such a inefficient mechanism in this day and age, it works against us completely.

Get it through your head. WE EXIST TO FURTHER OUR EXISTENCE AS A RACE. IMPORTANCE IS A HUMAN CONCEPT. WE MUST SURVIVE AND EXPAND FOR THE SAKE OF SURVIVAL AND EXPANSION.

>>4576872
20. University of Michigan Electical Engineering Computer Science program.

>>4576876
I don't want to, but this existence is turning me into a sociopath. SOME DAY. I EITHER ACHIEVE OR DIE TRYING.

>>4576873
Well, you proved you have no empathy, and lack emotion. Do you enjoy music? Also, I do believe I already said "because of the stupidity of the human race I think it would be wise to have humans off planet in case a nuclear disaster occurs, or any other doomsday scenario."

I too value the survival and continued existence of the human race. I just think you're living for someone else.

BTW, what have you done for society? I'm calling you out, give me your contribution.

That feel when you realize that no matter how far humanity expands, eventually we will go extinct.
Malthusian philosophy...

NASA's job isn't to expand Humanity into space, retards. It's job is to pipeline billions into the hands of aerospace contractors. That's why you keep THROWING AWAY your space stations.

>>4576620
>we are getting too "educated"

>>4576879
>>4576876

Ah, okay. Thank you. I am just going to go on an assumption and tell you that when you go through a ton of hardships in life, you will look back and realize that little shit like how stupid someone is... becomes irrelevant to you and you keep working towards your goal because it is just too much energy to focus on everyone else in the world. If you do great... or even good at something and it changes everyday mechanics, rest assured that you will be the reason the world progresses. What Joe Dirt is doing in his backyard will not stop us as long as we do have some people willing to passionately work at making the world better.

But you say you do not see a change, you have to look at the change you make to the world at a microscopic level right now.

>>4576588

>>4576908

I put education in quotes for a reason.

>>4576588
Great Idea OP!

>>4576887
I don't particularly enjoy music.
I'm a student. We'll see what I do eventually.
>>4576910 Those are the specifics

>>4576876
You see right through me I realized. You're right. But I don't want the dream to end. I want to fix what is wrong with mankind. It probably won't happen ever though.


I seem to let my emotions get the better of me. Eh.. should be studying actually.

>>4576908
>>4576908
i think he means we're getting too much information thrown at us, for us to totally digest it all.

>>4576934
Fair enough. I expect greatness.

>>4576934

Do not worry about it. I used to think like you, which is why I asked how old you were. I don't care what names you called me or whatever, just it reminded me how I was and what it took for me to move past that. We all let our emotions boil over and what better way than to be anonymous, right? Anyways, you seem passionate about wanting to change humanity. You can either go the positive route and keep your emotions in check or be the next Columbine shooter. I say to use that passion to make yourself at the top of your class.

>>4576941

I guess my central point was that schooling doesnt necessarily result in education. I think anyone can become reasonably good at calculus fairly easily with just some self-motivation. By locking up a bunch of kids you are forcing them all to sit down and listen to a perhaps uninspired high school teach talk about calculus for a whole year. I dont think that educates anyone. I think that just wastes everyone's time and money.

>>4576862
>but I, like many people, dont think education should only be available to those who can afford it

First of all: "Education" itself is incredibly fucking expensive right now, mostly invented costs which wouldn't exist in a free market.

Secondly almost all the time in the classroom is purely wasted, math, reading, writing, etc can all be taught in maybe a year or two. Beyond that they are just wasting their time.

More money doesn't really help anything at all, there is no "best education", these rich private schools do better because the shitskins/genetically stupid are kept out.

>>4576991

>First of all: "Education" itself is incredibly fucking expensive right now, mostly invented costs which wouldn't exist in a free market.

Whats an example of an invented cost that wouldnt exist in the free market?

>Secondly almost all the time in the classroom is purely wasted

I agree. But I dont see how thats pertinent in the public vs private education argument.

>>4576999
>Whats an example of an invented cost that wouldnt exist in the free market?

Massive buildings.
Lots of support personnel, you especially see this in negroid inner city schools who have shitloads of money to spend.
Hell, i dnno i'm not an expert.

They literally spend over 15k per student per year.
And then they talk about "not having enough money for books and desks"

>But I dont see how thats pertinent in the public vs private education argument.

I think it is, if the private schooling didn't have to meet arbitrary standardized testings, then you could drastically reduce the amount of time spent on it, and we would be much more productive as a society.

>>4576620

Cut the military's budget in half.

Dump half into education, half into NASA. How fucking rad would that be?

>>4577025
>15% of the budget on critical defense spending
>OH GOSH THIS IS TOO MUCH WE NEED TO CUT THIS NOW
>85% on worthless socialist waste
>MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE

Why do you think "Education" needs more money pissed into it?
Why do you think a bureaucratic mess like nasa should have money spent on it?

>>4577006

Listen, I am trying to work with you here, but I dont think you mentioned any particular costs that the government has artificially created.

>Massive Buildings

Really? The public schools where I live are not big enough. One of the local schools literally has insufficient amounts of oxygen in the air because of how crowded the building is.

You have mentioned race quite a lot. I guess the impression thats a priority concern of yours. What if we had no black people, would you be okay with a public school system of only white kids?

>standardized testings

The standards in the US are ridiculously low. The problems with standardized tests arent the standards, but problems with making sure everyone meets them.

>>4577025

I bet we could cut more than half. Given that I bet we can do better than just dump it into education.

>>4577054
I am guessing thats a priority concern of yours****

>>4577025
That would basically fix most of americas problems.

>>4577031
Beacuse education is the future dipshit.

How fucking retarded are you? The better education system we have, the more productive memebers of society we will produce. The better our country will be prepared for the future.

If education is shit, society will be shit (what is happeneing today). The only way to reficiy the problem is to set the bar higher. We need to pay teachers more, and make the job more worthwhile. If being a teacher is a more worthwhile job, you will get better teachers, and hence better educated studnets, and hence a more educated society, making better decisions.

i signed

>>4577031

I haven't the foggiest what I would do with that money. I don't know if the educational system needs more funding, or if it just needs reform. I was mostly using hyperbole to make a point -- we have the money to do some awesome shit, and we're not, really.

But since you decided to be a tool about it...

If you think that 15% of the budget is "critical defense spending", you're fucking delusional. As isolated as America is, bordered by two huge oceans and two large, friendly, weaker countries, and, you know, being the world's only economic and military superpower, no country on Earth poses any kind of threat to us. Probably not even any realistic coalition of countries. Past a certain point, military spending is offensive, not defensive, and we're way, way past that point.

It's also worth noting that all the figures I can find for what percentage of our budget goes to defense are considerably higher than 15%. And if you think that whatever percentage it is that we don't spend on the military is socialist waste, then you're just flat-out ignorant. And an asshole.

saged for belongs in /pol/

>>4576588
America is lost, it will be a third would country within the next hundred years.

It is your own fucking fault for encouraging ignorance (electing republicans).

By all means though, speed up the fucking process. I can't wait until your county is complete shit. Romney 2012!

>>4577080
Seems its gone up, critical defense is closer to 20% of the total budget.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_United_States_federal_budget

>And if you think that whatever percentage it is that we don't spend on the military is socialist waste

What the fuck do you think the government spends money on? Most of its socialist waste.

>>4577085
Einstein stole all his work by the way. He worked as a physics patent clerk, he saw all the new ideas and theories coming by, crossed out their name and took credit for it. Google it. Also both parties are the same if you haven't noticed.

>>4577085
Unfortunately, this is true. The 21st century will belong to the Chinese and Indians.

>>4577085
>It is your own fucking fault for encouraging ignorance (electing republicans).


It's laughable how fucking stupid liberals and democrat voters actually are, and they yell "ignorant" at everyone who disagrees with them.

>>4577073
pumping money into education has never worked. what we need is quality teachers and a culture of parents who hold their kids accountable. also too much money is being used for teachers generour retirement packages. also tenure is a failed system.

>>4577073
They don't need more money, they need to do things better.

And future? hah, these fucking socialists want to flood our country with shitskins and non-whites, and discourage children/family, don't even fucking talk about the future.

>>4577099

Building and maintaining roads, airports and public transportation. Maintaining the court system. Keeping you safe (law enforcement being mostly separate from the military.) National parks. Agricultural subsidies. Protecting the environment. Scientific research and yes, education.

Do you want to do away with all that, or privatize it? Either is naive.

>>4577132
You can privatize most of that, and the rest are tiny amounts.

>Either is naive.
You are the naive one, statist.

>Implying aliens aren't already here

>>4577136

what you said.

what's the military complex's budget?

how much for education? space exploration? h'mmm???

>>4577136

What the fuck are you doing outside of /pol/? You have a whole board for your racist, ultra-libertarian babbling, what are you doing here? You haven't a clue how an economy or country works and I'm not going to have this discussion with you unless you demonstrate a shred of humility or reason. Wise up or get out.

(for posterity's sake: it is worth noting, relevant to the discussion on the military budget above, that the figures of 15-20% are misleading. That doesn't include what we spend paying for past wars, military spending by other executive departments, and interest on the national debt incurred by the military. The actual amount we spend on defense is a good deal larger, and poorly-defined.)

>>4577177
So, 80% of the budget is socialism, yet that 20% has magically caused the whole debt?

People are stupid and need to be controlled.... by other people?

>>4577180
>if we evolved from monkeys why are their still monkeys

>>4577191
My point is, its utterly fucking retarded to think that these things must be done by government, he also ignores that it was all a goddamn power grab in the first place.

>>4577180

Do you seriously contend that I said either of these things or even implied them?