/sci/ - Science & Math

>m

Could somebody translate it into non retarded measurement units?

>>4557530
You mean in the international system of measurement? Well 1m is 1m.

>>4557534
I mean in the traditional and historical measurement system based on human references universally recognisable, such as foots or pounds and not in some arbitrary convention the french forced down your throat 50 years ago.

>>4557544

10/10 keep going dude

>>4557544
Or the size of a step, as standardized later by the french, using less variable measures, such as a fraction of a fixed distance, or later the wavelength of specific materials.

>>4557544
Thing is, I (OP) am actually French. My parents force it down your throat. And it makes me really happy to imagine how confusing it's been to your less able minds.

>>4557565
Not French, but Metric master-race bro-fist. I don't even want to imagine the time they spend converting units.

>>4557565
>French
>typing in English
You ain't fooling me bro.

>>4557584
A tiny fraction of the French population can actually speak English. Or at least read/write it, because since our education system is mostly about reading and writing tests, and since the main TV channels dub English movies instead of subbing them (you never hear English on the main channels, unless it's some pop music shit which you probably shouldn't be listening to anyway).

>tfw no other country will be cool enough to take on science advancing projects that the Soviets were doing

instead we'll just be plagued with media brainwashing and the latest fashion scandals.

the creator must have a lot of aspergers

>>4557530
>>4557544

>implying the SI system isn't god-tier
>pic related

now GTFO and let's have a discussion about awesome deep-sea beauty

>>4557709
One of my professors never loses the chance to point out what a disaster the collapse of the Soviet Union was from a scientific point of view.

>>4557723

>>4557723

I love so much your picture :3

http://biologie-cellule.blogspot.fr/

>>4557733

gtfo frenchy

>>4557732
the UK's official unit system is the SI system...

>>4557838
Oh and the common Englishman knows how to use it?

>>4557811
Dude. What the fuck. What the fuck.

I'm pleased. Whether or not I like that comic, it's more popularization of deep sea. The more people become fascinated the more support for increased funding.

Of course now that Cameron's made his dive and the three other competitors are close behind we do not lack for subs capable of piercing those depths. What we need now is to take some of those legacy undersea labs out of museums, refurbish and upgrade them, and then station them at sights of interest on the continental shelf. The Great Barrier Reef comes to mind, stick Hydrolab there or something. And if Tektite is still rotting in a warehouse somewhere stick that in Pavilion Lake.

Leaving them to rust on land is a tragedy. Let's get the public intrigued by living, working and exploring the undersea world so we can get these labs back in the water and maybe build some new ones.

>>4557688
Frenchfriend here. We all learnt to speak English on the Internet. I once used an Internet meme in an english test, I thought it was just an idiom.

Also, abyss are awesome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sternoptychidae

>>4557879
Yeah, I didn't really care about your opinion on the comic itself. Hell if I'm interested in promoting something, I'd be glad if someone else advertises it, whoever it is.

Anyway, I've been off /sci/ for some time, how is it going with the Mars expedition simulation? Is it still on your agenda?

>>4557879
> Let's get the public intrigued by living, working and exploring the undersea world so we can get these labs back in the water and maybe build some new ones.

That's morally and economically wrong. It's a fad and it just consumes money. The oceanic trenches are totally useless to us. Now that we know enough about them, there's no sane reason to go back to them.

>>4557900
>how is it going with the Mars expedition simulation? Is it still on your agenda?

Just got back from it.

>>4557903
>there's no sane reason to go back to them.
So there was no sane reason for Greek astronomers to study the stars? Not only knowledge is arguably an end it itself, but on the path of that knowledge, you will for sure acquire techniques that can be applied in a more practical or general way. Sure, economically, it's probably that this kind of research wouldn't generate more income than it would cost, even if you give it several decades. But considering the small amount of money that it would take compared to other relatively useless budgets (*cough* army *cough*), it's worth it.

>>4557910
Oh, I didn't realize it had been that long since I read your post about it. How did it go?

>>4557879

Mad Scientist, if your still around, if one were to build a diving-bell type enclosure with a moon pool for entry, how much would this cost? I was thinking something like Loyd Godson's enclosure, except much much simpler, because it would only need to be underwater for 24-48 hours at a time, and I would prefer oxygen and maybe power be routed from the surface. Would you have any tips on how to do this sort of oxygen setup safely?

I figured you would be the right person to ask, if you can spare some time.

>>4557903
>That's morally and economically wrong. It's a fad and it just consumes money.

Well, no, some forms do and some forms do not. Virgin Oceanic for instance will be taking high paying tourists to the Challenger Deep. The Jules Undersea Lodge and various other undersea hotels and restaurants like the Red Sea Star and Ithaa around the world cater to tourists and turn a tidy profit.

The science side of it is funded without expectation of profit because that is how you do science. Occasionally they do find astonishing things that make money.

Specifically in recent years many advances in biotechnology and life extension research have focused on deep sea organisms that show either negligible senescence (deepsea lobsters) or the ability to age in reverse (Turritopsis nutricula, pic related).

>The oceanic trenches are totally useless to us. Now that we know enough about them, there's no sane reason to go back to them.

We don't, though. We've just begun to properly explore one out of the five deepest trenches on Earth. And perhaps 5% of the ocean floor overall as of the recent Marine Census.

>>4557916
>How did it go?

Repaired and tested rover, repaired simsuits, experimented with growing algae on human waste, wrote exhaustive report on sea/space analog principles as applied to improving Mars Society analog operations, recommending annual undersea exercises aboard the Jules and Marinelab habitats in Florida.

Glad to be back on this fine-ass Earth though

>>4557913
> So there was no sane reason for Greek astronomers to study the stars?

The resources of the solar system are useful and can be obtained through practical levels of investment. None of that applies to the deep-sea trench environment.

> Not only knowledge is arguably an end it itself,

No it isn't. You pasty-white retards sitting in your basements surrounded by empty bags of Cheetos, always make that absurd claim. It's wrong. Knowledge must serve a practical purpose, like making money or materially increasing the quality of life (often the same thing).


> Sure, economically, it's probably that this kind of research wouldn't generate more income than it would cost, even if you give it several decades.

It's been given decades, you virgin-nerd retard. And it always turns out to be a FAD.

> But considering the small amount of money that it would take compared to other relatively useless budgets (*cough* army *cough*), it's worth it.

If you're spending your own money, then you can decide that. But you're not. You want to spend billions in OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY. And that's where the sin enters the picture.

The sum total of everyone claiming their fad requires funding, is massive government spending that leads to national collapse. DUH.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ontario-fresh-water-freaks/400747-sublimnos-diving-bell-going-waste
.html

>>4557933
Awesome! It must have been quite the experience, even if it's obviously good when it eventually ends.

>>4557933
>the ability to age in reverse (Turritopsis nutricula, pic related).
Awesome as well! :-)

>>4557943
>It's been given decades, you virgin-nerd retard. And it always turns out to be a FAD.

See: flight, computing

>>4557943
>The resources of the solar system are useful and can be obtained through practical levels of investment.
They didn't know about that. They didn't study because of that. They studied because they wondered.

>>4557943
>The resources of the solar system are useful and can be obtained through practical levels of investment. None of that applies to the deep-sea trench environment.

It does however apply to mining the abyssal plain. We're already doing that, it's much more feasible in the near term than mining asteroids:

http://www.nautilusminerals.com/s/Home.asp

>Knowledge must serve a practical purpose, like making money or materially increasing the quality of life (often the same thing).

Undersea colonies in particular serve the latter purpose. To say they aren't useful and shouldn't be built is like saying that Disney World serves no purpose and shouldn't exist. If people will pay for the joy of living in the sea it's entirely valid.

>It's been given decades, you virgin-nerd retard. And it always turns out to be a FAD.

And steady progress has happened over those decades. We now mine (Nautilus Minerals, Neptune Minerals), farm (Kona Blue), vacation (Jules Undersea Lodge, Lime Spa) dine (Ithaa, Red Sea Star) and do science (Aquarius, Marinelab, Baylab) in the ocean.

>If you're spending your own money, then you can decide that. But you're not. You want to spend billions in OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY. And that's where the sin enters the picture.

>Sin

Lol

>>4557943
Why do you hate science and increasing the sum of human knowledge you luddite piece of shit? Only doing research that leads to profit cripples actual science and discovery. And you would have to be a moron to think its easier to exploit materials in space than it is to exploit ones here on Earth.

>>4557922
> Virgin Oceanic for instance will be taking high paying tourists to the Challenger Deep. The Jules Undersea Lodge and various other undersea hotels and restaurants like the Red Sea Star and Ithaa around the world cater to tourists and turn a tidy profit.

Firstly, those who plan on making money by selling to the rich, are taking huge risks. Why? Because there aren't enough rich people, moron.

Secondly, all that can be privately funded. Let Branson spend his own money, moron. If it's actually a good business plan, then he'd fall all over himself to fund it. Right?

> We've just begun to properly explore one out of the five deepest trenches on Earth. And perhaps 5% of the ocean floor overall as of the recent Marine Census.

Sorry, but all you get when you run an exploration there is: MORE TRENCH. Big fucking deal.

If Cameron wants to blow through his money just to have a few more hours of video of MORE TRENCH, then that's his business. But when public money is proposed, it's pure waste.

Knowledge leads to extremely steep diminishing returns. That's why pasty-white retards like you love to tap the government for it. Well, your governments are fucking BROKE. Time to pay your utility bills and pensions, rather than keep up this pretense that you're some sort of adventuring civilization, chum.

>>4557976
>Knowledge leads to extremely steep diminishing returns. That's why pasty-white retards like you love to tap the government for it. Well, your governments are fucking BROKE. Time to pay your utility bills and pensions, rather than keep up this pretense that you're some sort of adventuring civilization, chum.

Man, you do know how to make yourself look dumb. You've just read the "Using stereotypes" chapter of your LookDumb101 book?

>>4557976
You are fucking kidding right? every single expedition down there uncovers things never before seen by science. It saddens me people like you hate actual science and discovery in favour of blind money grabbing.

>>4557973

It's not Luddism to expect your tax money to be spent towards the maximum ROI, moron. Or to expect your tax money not to be wasted on elitist fads like this deep-sea nonsense.

Do you want science to be funded? THEN FUCKING DO IT YOURSELF. And keep the proceeds, as befits REAL CAPITALISM.

>>4557922
> Firstly, those who plan on making money by selling to the rich, are taking huge risks. Why? Because there aren't enough rich people, moron.

Nothing prevents the cost from coming down. I've been on a tourist sub. They are not expensive. The only reasons Branson's tours will be, initially, is because the novelty of going that deep commands a steep price. The actual overhead expenses of operating and maintaining the sub permit much lower ticket prices once all the rich people have had a go.

Pic related, tour sub I went on. Good times.

>Secondly, all that can be privately funded. Let Branson spend his own money, moron. If it's actually a good business plan, then he'd fall all over himself to fund it. Right?

Yes, and it is being privately funded.

>>4557918

Anything, MS? An email I could contact you at would work as well if you'd prefer that.

>>4557987
Well the thing is that being on a science board and hating science means one of two things:
- Either he's a troll that comes to a board about something he doesn't like just to argue, like some go to religion chat rooms,
- Or he's a /sci/ resident who actually enjoys science and is just trolling on his off-time because he's bored and not clever enough to sustain an interesting scientific discussion.
In any case, he's not really worth answering seriously anymore.

>Sorry, but all you get when you run an exploration there is: MORE TRENCH. Big fucking deal.

Actually the trenches are a fascinating place. They are home to literal football sized ameobas. Single cell, just very large. And the floor isn't sand, it's an organic goo caled diatomaceous ooze. For biotech reasons alone this is a realm worth studying.

>If Cameron wants to blow through his money just to have a few more hours of video of MORE TRENCH, then that's his business. But when public money is proposed, it's pure waste.

I disagree, and my vote cancels out yours. :)

>Knowledge leads to extremely steep diminishing returns. That's why pasty-white retards like you love to tap the government for it. Well, your governments are fucking BROKE. Time to pay your utility bills and pensions, rather than keep up this pretense that you're some sort of adventuring civilization, chum.

Science is not what is bankrupting us. It's a tiny drop in the bucket and in fact a huge part of what made us wealthy to begin with. To cut science loose to save a few pennies when it's welfare, medicare and the military that are sinking this ship would be foolish. Especially when subsea technology built for science has been applied to mining, opening up the blue frontier to mineral extraction that creates jobs and a tremendous influx of wealth.

>>4557996
Scientific progress is far more important than your petty ideologies and idiotic lust for money.

>>4557996
>Do you want science to be funded? THEN FUCKING DO IT YOURSELF. And keep the proceeds, as befits REAL CAPITALISM.
What if I want to use the money that I currently pay, as taxes, to the military, to be used on deep sea exploration instead? I can't. Why? Because that's how taxes work. Some people want funds for the army, everybody has to pay for it. Some people want funds for research, everybody has to pay for it too. If almost no one wants funds on a given topic, it should receive less money, which is why promoting it is a clever attitude if you do want some money. The day I can stop funding the army, I'll listen to you when you tell me to fund deep sea exploration by myself.

Oh and I understand very well that a system in which each individual chooses what he pays taxes for wouldn't work. If you thought that it was what I meant, you didn't get my point.

>>4558003
>Anything, MS?

I answered you here: >>4557945

SubLimnos sounds like what you want. It cost $10,000 to make in the 1970s. Factor in inflation for a more up to date figure.

If you don't need to be up out of the water entirely, a transparent bubble like this one would be much much cheaper: (pic related) http://www.subaqua.alldaydrive.com/index.php

>>4558007
>wanting to explore/colonize trenches
>still haven't explored/colonized siberia, American southwest, Alaska, Canada.

>>4558025
>>wanting to explore/colonize trenches

No, not trenches. Explore, yes. Colonize, no. Nobody wants to live there.

>>still haven't explored/colonized siberia, American southwest, Alaska, Canada.

Lots of people want to live undersea in tropical waters. Nobody wants to live in those places. It's a matter of demand, not taking the path of least resistance technologically.

>>4558018

The Bubble room looks interesting, but from a quick glance at their site it seems like decompression sickness would factor in if I were to be underwater for ~24hrs at say, ~15 feet. If the oxygen were pumped in from the surface instead of using O2 bubblers, would this not become a problem anymore?

>>4558029
your argument still falls on romanticized images of underwater capsule cities

>>4558037
>your argument still falls on romanticized images of underwater capsule cities

Did you mean "fails"? And how does the "romanticized imagery" invalidated it? Cynicism equals correct, and anything happy and hopeful is automatically impossible and retarded? Just trying to make sure I understand your reasoning here.

Posting to let MadSci know he's my bro. You're my bro, bro.

>>4558054

You're MY bro. I love this board warts and all, because you guys get what's important.

>>4558018

That would be ~$60k, for anyone interested.

>Had he been wearing standard scuba gear, Pipin could descend to about 350 feet before suffering "rapture of the deep," a narcotic like stupor caused by compressed nitrogen. If Pipin worked for a commercial diving outfit that serviced oil rigs, he'd spend weeks in pressurized nodules so he could work at a depth of 1,000 feet. Some test dives using oxygen mixed with various exotic gases have enabled people to survive at 2,400 feet, but that seems about the limit for unprotected humans.
Could anyone explain why there is a 'limit' there? Why can't you just reduce the oxygen content of the helium-oxygen mixture and dive to the bottom of the Marianas trench?

>>4558083

That quite sucks. I was really hoping a very rudimentary setup could take me to ~15 feet for ~24 hours on a budget of $5,000-$7,000, but it's looking like that might not be possible. I was willing to sacrifice comfort, but not safety.

>>4558091
>Why can't you just reduce the oxygen content of the helium-oxygen mixture and dive to the bottom of the Marianas trench?

Powerful madness beyond any naturally occurring neurological affliction. Increasing pressure gradually reduces the firing threshold of neurons.

>The symptoms of water pressure at 33-100 feet include mild impairment of performance of unpracticed tasks, mildly impaired reasoning and mild euphoria.

>Symptoms at 100-165 feet include delayed response to visual and auditory stimuli, diminished reasoning and memory capacity (to a greater extent than motor functions), calculation errors and wrong choices, obsessive fixation on a single and sometimes arbitrary idea, over-confidence and an increased sense of well-being, laughter and a tendency to talk much more than usual.

>Symptoms at 165-230 feet include sleepiness, impaired judgment, confusion, hallucinations, severe delay in response to signals/instructions, dizziness, uncontrollable laughter/hysteria, and occasionally terror.

>Symptoms at 230-300 feet include poor concentration and mental confusion, stupefaction with further decreased dexterity and judgment, greater loss of memory and increased excitability.

>Symptoms at 300 feet and beyond include severe hallucinations, increased intensity of vision and hearing, sense of impending blackout, euphoria, dizziness, manic or depressive states, a sense of levitation, disorganization of the sense of time, changes in facial appearance, and in some cases unconsciousness or death. All of this assumes a normal atmospheric mixture, hence the use of alternative breathing gases like hydrox, heliox, nitrox and trimix for different depth ranges, requiring very deep dives to transition from one breathing gas to the next on descent and ascent.

>>4558101

Make a bubble room like these guys. That's what I'm doing. Much cheaper and easier than a rigid diving bell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHV8I_Ck1Jo

>>4558091
Lay your hand on the ground.
Stand a broomhandle on your palm.
Now stack 8 volkswagen beetles on top of that handle.
Hurts, doesn't it?

That about the pressure you'd feel at the trench.

>>4558120

Yeah, I saw your post earlier, but I also had one question about the Bubble Room that went unanswered earlier

>>4558034

Sorry if its a stupid question, but I only have a rudimentary understanding of these things.

>>4558122
>That about the pressure you'd feel at the trench.

He's talking about saturation diving. His body would be equalized with the outside pressure. The reason he can't do that is because your brain stops working and somewhere beyond that your lungs can't admit oxygen. Cells behave differently under high pressures.

Deepest (simulated) dive in a hyperbaric chamber was to the air pressure equivalent of 2,300 feet. As best we know that is the safe physiological limit for humans.

But wait...what is this sudden interest for the bottom of the ocean? James Cameron, the guy from virgin mobile, a Google guy...whats down there that is so damn interesting?

>>4558112

Why haven't I heard about this before holy shit

I want to feel that

>>4558165
>whats down there that is so damn interesting?

The picture is a giant ameoba species that lives in the trench.

Conditions are so different down there, the rules for what kind of lifeforms can evolve are different. You get really bizarre alien creatures and weird phenomena like diatomaceous ooze, underwater brine rivers/lakes, etc.

It's just really fucking creepy and fascinating.

>>4557530
10/10 i fell for it

>>4558134
'Your brain stops working' just brings up the question: how com it stops working? From a 1981 paper:
>High hydrostatic pressure (20.8 MPa) reduced the maximum inward current to 0.78 and the delayed outward current, measured at the inward current reversal potential, to 0.75 of their value at atmospheric pressure.
What mechanism is at work here? How does pressure on a non-compessionable liquid influence the opening and closing of ion channels?

There's very little in the way of limits to what kind of creatures we could conceivably find. The deep just keeps surprising us.

Pic awesome but inaccurate. For example, Deepwater Horizon actually reached the depth of 10 685 m, not 12 000 as suggested.

>>4557945
>>4557968
>>4557999
>>4558007
Sorry do not read tripfags

>>4558184

Fuck if I know why it happens, but you go as insane as it is possible to be. I really wonder what it's like, what they see and feel under those conditions. If someone volunteered and signed a waiver, could they try it out with a diving bell or suit?

>>4558176
where is the picture of the ameoba?

These are just jellies so far. Tip of the iceberg. GIS for "nudibranch" to see even greater biodiversity.

>>4558201
>where is the picture of the ameoba?

It was attached to the post you just replied to. Here's another, less developed one.

>>4558209
ooh i thought it would look different.

>>4558201
the pic is the amoeba

>>4558215
>ooh i thought it would look different.

Well, it looks uniform in color and texture as there's no subdivision into smaller cells and therefore no cellular specialization. The outside looks as you'd expect a bi-layer of lipids (aka molecular fats) to looks and the foldy shape is to maximize surface area to get nutrients to every part of it, since it has no specialized cells for nutrient transport.

On a very very large scale, this is what a single celled organism looks like, and you only find weird shit like this in the deep sea.

>>4558191
You pathetic /b/tard.

When are we likely to see pictures of what the Deepsea Challenger saw down there?

Is the thing about the door some reference I'm not getting?

>>4558176
right here, apparently
>>4558201

>They are home to literal football sized ameobas. Single cell, just very large.

wow. just wow. How on earth did they figure out it was a single cell? It looks like a sponge, nudibranch, or coral growth to me.

>>4558244
>When are we likely to see pictures of what the Deepsea Challenger saw down there?

A few months to a year most likely. Here's a summary that includes details on what they saw. The most significant finding I can see is amphipods of unprecedented size.

http://deepseachallenge.com/latest-news/expedition-update-phase-ii/

>"On March 8 Cameron set the record for a single-manned dive to 27,119 feet (8,265 meters) in the New Britain Trench off Papua New Guinea. An expedition lander, or unmanned research vehicle, captured images of an enormous amphipod—the deepest instance of gigantism reported to date."

Whatever they saw while actually down in the trench (not during a test) will only be revealed when the documentary comes out.

XKCD is really awesome in doing such 'graphs'. The 'graph' showing the gravitational potential of the planets in the solar system is also quite cool.

http://xkcd.com/681/

>>4558262
>wow. just wow. How on earth did they figure out it was a single cell?

Dissection on the surface. Same molecular structure as a cell, just on a much larger scale.

>>4558271
That just blows my mind! There is probably decades of research just to figure out the structural mechanisms that allow it to keep its shape! Exploratory science is awesome!

And when you say "amoeba", you just mean protozoa, right? It surely isn't genetically related to the actual amoeba species.

>>4558271

>>4558248

bump because I want to know this too

The door in the Marianas Trench is a joke, right?

>>4558327
Nope, it's totally real.

>>4558327
>>4558327
>>4558327
>>4558327
>>4558327
is it?

>>4558349

By the way, I will soon be publishing a short deepsea scifi horror book for Kindle, Nook and other ebook readers in case anyone is interested.

what ever happened with lake vostok?

even /v/ loves deep sea threads, and they don't love many things.

Im sure they will like OP's pic in the next sea thread

also
>not using meters

>>4558834
>deepsea book by madsci

>>4558893
contact was lost with the expedition

i'm sure they're fine though, it's not as if there'd be something dangerous lurking beneath miles of ice which has not seen the stars since the paleogene ended

>>4559002
Soggoths,
But in reality they are waiting for summer again.

>>4559140
shoggoth I should say