/sci/ - Science & Math

wager

Regardless of whether there is or isn't, there's nothing you can do about it. Enjoy life and see what happens next.

>>4334040
You should keep believing there is an afterlife, because being conscious every morning you wake up that it's all pointless can be very depressing

>>4334057
Thats pretty much the thing
I feel like if there isn't an afterlife then the only worth while thing to do in life is satisfy yourself while you can

But if there is an afterlife then I feel like it gives me a reason to try being the best I possibly can. Which seems like it would lead to a far more fulfilling life in the long run

Life is meaningless but waiting for an afterlife to live is just stupid.

>>4334040
>Unless there's an afterlife, life is meaningless
Explain to me why this afterlife must necessarily have more meaning than this current life.
Then explain to me why this current life must necessarily have no meaning.
Then explain to me how this life having no meaning means that there must necessarily be an afterlife.
Don't even bother trying. You won't succeed.

>>4334071

I don't understand that line of reasoning. If you lived your life as if there was no "afterlife", then it should follow that you would attempt to maximize fulfillment on earth, whether by hedonism or a higher moral activity, where either would be done for their own sake.

If you posit that there is an afterlife and that you have to live according to some higher purpose, then you are putting arbitrarily restraints on your lifestyle which could only lead to a less fulfilling life.

So simply ignore the chance of an afterlife, and impose self-restrictions on yourself if for pragmatic sake in the long run. That's just a future orientation, but for the benefit of a future which will you will see one day.

>>4334090
Not OP but I believe life is pointless, and every day that goes by I wonder more and more why even bother. When you really realize that it is utterly pointless, it becomes hard to live.

>>4334110
It's only pointless because you did nothing with it.

>>4334080
Because afterlife is forever. It not like I'll die in it and be gone forever

If there isn't an afterlife and you die, then what was the point of it all, if you aren't even there anymore? The only possible reason to live would be just to satisfy yourself while you can, because thats all that matters. And that just seems kind of meaningless to me.

Why satisfy myself, when I can just kill myself right now and it wouldn't make any difference to me?

>>4334052
This guy.

The universe doesn't care what you would 'prefer'. The universe is how it is. There is no suggestion of evidence that hints towards an afterlife. If you have any consideration for such things as 'reality' and objective truth, you would accept this. Anyways we are responsible for deciding our own purpose. We have evolved some rewarding emotions that we can exploit and you might derive your purpose from these. My favourite is awe.

>>4334114

are you in a hurry to die?

>>4334114
>Afterlife is forever
I bet you like the idea of eternal life.
You're just afraid of death OP.
I prescribe healthy doses of polar bear liver daily.

>>4334071
Eh? Wouldn't the non-existence of an afterlife actually make this life have more meaning? Since, you know, it's the only one. I don't understand your reasoning.
In any case, this >>4334078
Meaning is completely subjective.

I would just like to say that im not trying to convince anyone that there is an afterlife
Im just trying to here what you guys have to say about it, so I can get closer to figuring out what I think myself

Its just that right now in my life im at a crossroads.
I can go in the direction of living a normal life, starting a family.
Or I can just do what I want to do at that point in time. Live completely in the moment.

And I just feel like this afterlife question would let me decide which path I should choose

>>4334110

If you TRULY accept that nihilistic reasoning, not just for its logical implications about meaning, but also the underlying moral and "spiritual" intuitions, then why do you still think that it would be preferable to live an illusory life than to die? Doesn't your thinking that a "meaningful life, even if illusion, is preferable to death" PROVE that your innermost drives are primarily eros and life focused, even if founded on illogical maxims? Because of this feeling, why do you consider death?

You do not know meaning. I do not know meaning. But there is something driving us to stay alive, even if its just for a biological evolutionary benefit. Nonetheless, here I am, caught in an absurdist struggle, not needing to trick myself about afterlifes. I am here because I want to be. What is my rationale for existing? Go fuck yourself with a rake, that's what.

>>4334136
That's because you're an idiot.

>>4334040
>I just cant help but feel like unless there's an afterlife, life is meaningless
So you're saying that unless you can exist forever... the finite life you do have means nothing?

...right.

>>4334130
I just feel like if there isn't an afterlife I should just do whatever I want to do at that time, and live completely in the moment.

>>4334113
It's pointless because it fucking is, who thinks about the big picture every day? We are on a tiny piece of rock in the immensity of the universe, and everyone acts as if our actions had any kind of importance. It's all futile, we come and go on this tiny piece of rock, and who is there to care about our fate?

>>4334146
Are you gonna die tomorrow? If you're not, that wouldn't be a good idea no matter what.

Asking for the meaning of life is like asking what is the flavour of yellow. It's a category error. Life just is.

>>4334147
thats depressing though
I would rather accept a reality where what I do in life is important

>>4334146
>live completely in the moment
You do this anyway. Thoughts about the past and future are experienced in the present. Thoughts about non-existence and 'afterlife' are experienced in the present.

>>4334161
So you just want to believe what feels good instead of facing the truth.

And your logic is backwards anyway. If you exist forever, nothing you do now is important. Whereas if you only exist till you die, you only have this life, which means it's the most precious thing you have and you should live it to the best that you can.

>>4334138
>Doesn't your thinking that a "meaningful life, even if illusion, is preferable to death" PROVE that your innermost drives are primarily eros and life focused, even if founded on illogical maxims?

That's the thing, I'm becoming less and less convinced that living a meaningless life is preferable to death, at least the way I'm living it. Maybe I should go climb Mount Everest or something and then maybe I'll have a slightly different opinion about it all, but if I can't even enjoy the life that I'm living then fuck man, rather die than live a meaningless life I don't even enjoy.

You are a shallow faggot that only cares about himself. You don't give a fuck about anyone else, and you don't give a fuck about the people that will live after you die.

>>4334040

>without an afterlife, life is meaningless

I knew a girl, a smart physics major actually, who killed herself because her life was "imperfect". Prior to this, a couple of friends and I attempted to pick apart her reasoning, thinking that she would accept that (i) the nihilistic paradox essentially shows that you can't logically dismiss meaning and (ii) our current theories may very well imply no meaning, but there is still a possibility that upon further speculation, the basis for these claims of meaninglessness may in fact be grounded in irrationality. She accepted our claims, which seemed to force her into a limbo of existing (as we can assume that existing can lead to non-existing, but you can't reverse death, thus, for pragmatic sake, it is wise to stay alive until you come to a full realization) and she could not properly articulate (or perhaps she didn't even know) what was still urging her to kill herself.

I'd like to say I have found a better argument since, but I haven't, They still seem well-grounded, though, which is why I think nihilism is nothing but rationalized depression, where the source is not rational, but rationality is used as one doesn't like the fact that they can't understand their innermost motivations to die.

>>4334188
Nor do you and I.
The only actions we can take are those that satisfy our own desires.
>>4334178
>that living a meaningless life
What does this mean?
The meaning of 'life'=Life is the characteristic that distinguishes objects that have self-sustaining biological processes from those that do not.
>rather die than live a meaningless life I don't even enjoy.
This has nothing to do with meaning. This has everything to with the fact that you aren't enjoying your existence. 'Good feels' are the only intrinsic good, they are the driving force behind every action you have ever taken. If your life was devoid off good feels you'd be actionless ie;dead.

>unless there's an afterlife, life is meaningless

So? Are you implying that an afterlife must exist because you want it to exist?

>>4334114
Why does there need to be a 'point'? I don't live my life tihnking, damn, if i was't put here for a purpose, I would stop replying to this faggot on sci!
what the fuck man. The idea that there's no point to this shit is philosophical at best, argument from ignorance at worst.

I see life as a sandbox mode video game. No objectives, but fun while it lasts. Why do you play it? For fulfillment? No. You play it because you want to. It's that simple. Sometimes you'll have to spend a while working on menial things like constructing giant rube goldberg machines, but the payoff of seeing them work is worth the effort. Then, when you get bored, you shut the program down and delete it from your computer.

>>4334202
It happens to spend days without "meaningful" good feelings, apart from those natural good biological feelings of satisfying one's hunger and emptying one's bladder. One cannot base his whole life on this now can he, every human aspires to experience more good feelings than these primal ones.
Sure life in the biological sense has no meaning in itself, it just is, so in the same way my life and everyone else's life has no meaning. Most people find their own meaning in living it though, either because they don't think about it, or because they experience enough joy in it that they don't care about the meaninglessness of it.

babbys first afterlife thoughts

The older you get the more you'll come to realize that life is really about those transitory moments where you make your love smile.
When you help your mom through a mid life crisis.
When you understand how much your simple absence from life would hurt those that have come to love you.

I only have a few friends, and one really fantastic boyfriend(I'm male as well), but if I left them behind If I could think on it anymore I would be incredibly guilt stricken to abandon them.
Everyone has thoughts like this from time to time.

But it's best to just keep moving forward, and try to be true to yourself.

Love like you've only got one life in a vast infinity of time.
Reason like it really matters, because it does.
Enjoy what you can while you can, when you're 65 life may itself be quite a chore. But by this point hopefully you have a web of friends and family you can rely on to help you and who rely on you to help them.

>>4334223
>don't care about the meaninglessness of it.
This is absurd.
Again, asking what the meaning of life is is like asking what the flavour of yellow is, it's a category error.

>>4334202
>Good feelings are intrinsically good
>Hedonism
I thought we all grew out of this?

>>4334245
The logical point still stands though. The only thing that we know of thus far that is absolutely good are the experiences of good. It's just lucky we all happen to mostly agree on what makes you feel good.

>>4334238
I am referring to the meaning one attributes to his life, not to the meaning of life itself which is indeed inexistent.

OP, this is a weird statement:

>unless there's an afterlife, life is meaningless

seems to expect that the time that matters isn't the time you have now, but the next try.
You want do-overs.

You've got a chance to do everything, right now.
All through your life, people have told you that what you do now matters.
This (right now) is your chance to do it.

>>4334256
>I am referring to the meaning one attributes to his life
The fuck are you on about, some sort existentialist shit?
The meaning of my life is duck, because I give it that meaning.
But I am my life, I cannot escape it to give it some sort of meaning, it's like trying to see what the outside of the universe looks like.
>>4334245
Why?

>>4334254
No it doesn't.
Hedonism is a laughable stance. You realize that every single human being on the face of the earth has differing viewpoints on what feels good, and that many people enjoy things that cause harm to other people, right.
Of course you don't. You're a hedonist.

>>4334273
No you moron.
Do we mine good in Australia?
Where in nature do we find objective good?

Ohh that's right only in sensations that are appraised as good in individuals. Good job sucking cock at logic.

>>4334273
Seriously you don't even understand what hedonism is.
> You realize that every single human being on the face of the earth has differing viewpoints on what feels good, and that many people enjoy things that cause harm to other people, right.
Yes, hedonists realize this. What *causes* (ie;killing babies or giving to charity) good feels has nothing to do with the fact the good feels are the only intrinsic good.

>>4334276
>Objective good
>Things that are praised as good MUST be good
Are you trolling? Even someone who just watched a few videos on YouTube and read Wikipedia could point out how fucking retarded those statements are.

>>4334286
But... you can't? Hmm, interesting!

>>4334282
But that's obviously wrong.

>>4334286
Instead of telling me how brilliantly you can counter that the only known good thing in reality are sensations of good you actually tell me your counter arguments.

>>4334282
>>4334282
>>4334282

This a million times.

>>4334291
Why are they good? Feeling good does not make something good, and the fact that good feelings are derived from awful actions alone invalidates this idea.

>>4334289
How is it obviously wrong? You're on a forum, don't be bashful.

>>4334289
Proof?

>>4334297
If it's awful to you it must be objectively awful. Way to sink your own argument.

Guys I think we just got trolled...

>>4334303
Yes pain is objectively awful, what causes pain is not objectively awful.

>>4334300
Nothing can be demonstrated to have intrinsic value. And you're asking for proof to deny a life stance that has no proof. Do you really want to argue that brutally murdering people is okay because it causes good feelings in people?
If a=b and a=c then b=c

>>4334309
>Has never heard of BDSM

There's no purpose for our existence, only reasons that caused it. You believe that there's an afterlife only because you wish it were true.

>>4334313
Nice straw man.
The argument isn't in support of Hedonism.
The argument is that the point that the only thing we know of that is intrinsically good are feelings of good.

You'll have a hard as shit time arguing your way to objective morality(Noone has successfully done it in over 5000 years, take your shot.)

>>4334309
if action x causes pain and all pain is horrible, ten action x too must be horrible. Hedonism is self defeating because a given action that gives pleasure must also be good, but they can cause pain at the same time and so must be awful

OP, if there is an afterlife, can you imagine any situation where your behavior, accomplishments, or attitude in this one don't matter?

If you don't do the best you can (social, philosophically, behaviorally, not financially!) here, you might find you're second-class there.

You could arrive at the resort and find you aren't allowed in, you're serving food to the staff.

>>4334318
Our existence could serve some arcane retarded purpose in things. Our understanding of the universe/multiverse is far from complete thus far.

>>4334324
>If all pain is horrible
>If pain doesn't induce pleasure in some people
>If I considered my post for more than 5 seconds before pasting >it on the internet.

>>4334321
Morality isn't objective, but we can say that a given action is bad because it causes unjustified suffering. If hedonism is true, then all that produces good feelings must also be good, and all that produces bad feelings must also be bad, but this is obviously untrue, and needs no explanation.

Without an absolute purpose for our existence we are truly free instead of being slaves created solely to carry out our purpose. Some people cannot handle that freedom, they need to be told what to do.

>>4334327
And the odds of discovering that hypothetical purpose in our lifetime is as close to 0 as it can be, so for my part my existence and your existence serve no purpose.

>>4334321
...which is hedonism.

>>4334313
>Nothing can be demonstrated to have intrinsic value.
Intrinsic= Belonging naturally; essential.
For something to be called good an essential property of that thing must be 'good'. The use of the word 'good' proves good has intrinsic value.
Wrong things aren't called good. Only good things are called good.
>brutally murdering people is okay because it causes good feelings in people?
It doesn't matter, the only action we can ever take are those that satisfy our desires for good feels. Life isn't stop---action--stop, life consists of actioning, you are in a state of action. The driving force behind this actioning is to attain good feels.
Good feels are intrinsically good otherwise we wouldn't label them *good* feels, they'd be called something else.

>>4334316
Pleasure is achieved by physical pain, not the same as mental anguish, but keep arguing semantics, it will take you far.

>>4334334
Why can't you people understand that asserting a point made in an argument can be valid while the argument itself may have errors.

Fucking idiots.

>>4334340
>>4334340

Yes when I say that a logical point is sound it totally implies that I fully adhere to an obviously flawed ideology.

Straw man. You are an idiot.

>>4334324
Wrong, what causes pain for one may not cause it for another, therefore not gaining the title as objective. Are you even trying?

>>4334342

Tell me how it's the same. Are you only capable of boasting how amazing your arguments are? Or can you produce some of them?

>>4334341
>Good feels are intrinsically good or we wouldn't call them good
What.
This doesn't even make any sense.

>>4334350
It's not the same though

would doing it forever make it any MORE meaningful? pic related.

>>4334352
Your assuming some sort of objective good.

>>4334356
Holy shit is that Spaghetti Horse?

>>4334344
Mfw you think that you can save yourself by pulling your trump card
It's not a fallacy here because intrinsic value cannot be demonstrated in anything. All value is completely subjective.
Your fallacy did indeed wreck the argument because the conclusion isn't true.

>>4334355
THEN TELL ME HOW! You can't just say something like it's God's word. TELL ME HOW.

>>4334362
Non-demonstrable =/= false

>>4334364
What are you even on about?

Are you talking about how some can gain pleasure from being masochistic? Why don't you read a wikipedia article?

>>4334362
>Intrinsic value can't exist in a judgement of intrinsic value.

You know there's a physical world out there yeah?
You know that we are essentially AIs running around with retarded shit that evolution made in our heads right?

Do you just shit on your keyboard and let your log press the keys?

>>4334375
You're talking to me, a human being, and a number of others.

>refers me to the wikipedia.

How about you go fuck yourself if you can't produce any sort of logical legitimate thought on the matter.

>>4334360
No I'm not.
You think that morality is bunk because it's subjective?
If pain is intrinsically bad, and pleasure is intrinsically good, then actions causing these must also have the same status, but actions that cause pleasure also cause pain, and cannot be both intrinsically good/morally justifiable and intrinsically bad/morally wrong, because these are contradictions.

>>4334377
>You know there's a physical world out there yeah?
>You know that we are essentially AIs running around with retarded shit that evolution made in our heads right?
hahahahahahahah
hahahahahah
hahahahahahahhahaha
Omg you got a single shred of evidence for that?

>>4334381
Okay here you go big boy

>dysfunctional brain regards physical stress as something like achieving a goal
>releases dopamine

There

>>4334370
You can't assert it as true. There is no reason to believe anything that is undemonstrable.

>>4334356
Anyway. Lack of "intrinsic" meaning doesn't mean there's no point, it just means YOU have to be the one who cares because quarks gravity and the speed of light aren't gonna do it for you.

Look at this, picture, you jewnigger. That's the mandelbrot set, all it is is the iterated plot of Z = Z^2 + C. It doesn't mean anything, it doesn't have a purpose, but fuck you look at it it's beautiful.

Listen to me you clownfaggot, you only have one life and unless we fix that pesky senescence soon (srs tho, someone should get on that) it won't be very long, so make it totally rock.

Here have some rockified pachebel's canon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdDDxMhUqXQ

>>4334386

>Chooses outlier cases.
>Ignores that some people like pain.
>Has attained creationist levels of stupidity.

>>4334395
Godel disagrees with you

'This statement is unprovable'

Uh oh!

>>4334377
What does that do to support your point?

Why must organic matter have a purpose?

>>4334390
So what are you saying? God gave us special souls that could never be put into something like an artificial construct(which we're rapidly approaching being able to do)?

STATE A FUCKING ARGUMENT. YOU HAVE CONTRIBUTED NOTHING TO ANYTHING.

This thread gave me cancer, I'm gonna go end my life now.

>>4334386
>You think that morality is bunk because it's subjective?
Nope.
>If pain is intrinsically bad, and pleasure is intrinsically good, then actions causing these must also have the same status
Why?

>>4334407
Bye

>>4334400
>drops a name
>makes a tautology
>LOOK AT ME I'M SO SMART

>>4334412
>is wrong
>attacks me
Poor baby

>>4334399
What.
Do you seriously think that your statements somehow make my argument less sound? Are you trolling?

>>4334415
This isn't a library. You're an idiot if you can't state arguments that you supposedly agree with.

This is a forum. Talk. State your arguments as best you can.

>>4334406
These are experienced ideas, no part of your existence is physical. Thoughts of physical objects are just that-thoughts,experiences.

>>4334405
If a=b and a=c, then b=c

It is completely irrelevant whether you find your existence meaningless or not. You exist regardless.

>>4334416

Yes I do because it has been stated that your example is wrong about 5 times in this thread alone.

Some people like pain. Your argument is invalid. How many people actually engage in these situations?
>Not outlier cases

Do you have anything reasonable to even contribute?

>>4334419
Uh what? You're the one that isn't arguing points.

>>4334398
lolol forgot pic

>>4334420
Yes and they are therefore distinct from physical reality.

I could state some stuff that would help the argument along but I imagine you/the others couldn't handle it without a 5 hour shitstorm of stupidity.

>>4334425
The fact that some people like pain only further invalidates your argument, because that causes a contradiction within your belief system.

>>4334427

">is wrong
>attacks me
Poor baby"

Seriously? You aren't fooling me or anyone with the ability to click the post reference links.

>>4334422
What?
You might as well say a=a=a/

>>4334433
'Pain' in them causes 'good' sensations. I'm failing to see how you have valiantly stamped out thousands of years old arguments.

>>4334434
>drops a name
>makes a tautology
>LOOK AT ME I'M SO SMART
You aren't fooling me or anyone

>>4334431
>Yes and they are therefore distinct from physical reality.
So physical reality is unknowable, yet you know it exists?

>>4334437
..............

>>4334446
Nope.
But what we experience as reality can be nothing but a stable state hallucination that most people around also can roughly agree to.

>>4334439
But pain is a bad sensation and must also be bad. This causes a contradiction.
And you are still failing to address the fact that pleasure is derived from actions that cause pain to others.

>>4334440
Ohh the wonders of anonymous posting and illiteracy.

>>4334451
>But what we experience as reality can be nothing but a stable state hallucination
Dude, just no. You know nothing of qualia.

>>4334454
Ohh the wonders of cognitive dissonace and the dunning-kruger effect

>>4334452

That's irrelevant though. We're not talking about objective right or wrong. We're talking about the only known thing in the universe than can actually be said to be good, that being good sensations.

As earlier, you cannot mine good. You can only find good in someone's experiences.

>>4334450
Something can only be identical to itself.
A=B is the same as saying A=A.

>>4334456
Thanks for once again gibbering like a cow.

Tell me how or don't bother posting.

I have about 20 pages of a report I've written I can just dump in here for noone to read. But no, this is a discussion. This isn't procedurally generated google gibberish but what other people are actually thinking.

>>4334457
Do you even know how many people you're talking to?

>>4334468
What's the difference?

>>4334472
Probably 0 since nobody exists

>>4334473
Because I don't expect anyone in this thread to sit aside 2 hours to read a report from a nobody. Instead I treat this as a discussion that I would normally engage in with someone like a professor.

We have the advantage of being able to post supporting material but don't kid yourself that many if any are going to read it.

>>4334040
Build a life worth living, and you won't ask stupid questions like this.

>>4334462
>Doesn't even know the commutative property
>Doesn't understand what I mean when I say it
>Doesn't understand that intrinsically good things will also be objectively good and must be moral
>Good can only be found in experiences
I think it's time to stop posting. I just figured out that I'm arguing with a 10 year old.

>>4334463
sense vs reference, yo!

"bruce wayne - batman" teaches me something, while "bruce wayne = bruce wayne" does not

Life is less meaningless than your arguing in this thread.

>>4334463

If A = B, and B = C, then A and B and C are identical.
Therefore A=C.

>>4334452
>But pain is a bad sensation and must also be bad.
If pain is pleasure then it isn't pain.
>And you are still failing to address the fact that pleasure is derived from actions that cause pain to others.
Why ought one care about the pain of other people?
>>4334468
The fuck are you on about?
You agreed, thoughts about reality=/=physical reality. Then you said physical reality exists and is distinct from thoughts even though this is in-itself a thought.
You're literally claim to have accessed the inaccessible.

>>4334479
Quit arguing with yourself. ROFL OWN3D

>>4334483
>Implying that any meaning exists outside of the meaning we assign to things

>>4334479
>Assumes intellectual high ground.
>Is probably the same 20 something I am.
>Most people my age are ignorant assholes.
>Good job.

>>4334484
Yes A=C is the same as saying A=A.
What this has to do with hedonism I really have no clue.

>>4334485
>If pain is pleasure then it isn't pain
You just contradicted yourself.

>I shall be told, I suppose, that my philosophy is comfortless — because I speak the truth; and people prefer to be assured that everything the Lord has made is good. Go to the priests, then, and leave philosophers in peace! At any rate, do not ask us to accommodate our doctrines to the lessons you have been taught. That is what those rascals of sham philosophers will do for you. Ask them for any doctrine you please, and you will get it. Your University professors are bound to preach optimism; and it is an easy and agreeable task to upset their theories.
http://www.archive.org/details/studies_pessimism_librivox

>>4334498
Pleasure=good
Pain=bad
Bad=/=good.

>>4334485
Basic logic time.

Is your thought of something the same as the thing itself?

No? Ohh, well I guess you just lost that point.

Yes we all access reality through our subjective experience. However the fact that it appears to be shared with several billion others indicates that our subjective experience is indicative of something that actually exists.

>>4334495
Attention span is a good thing.

Philosophy thread on /sci/ makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Essentially I break it down into this. My current options in regards to living are this: A) I continue to live in my current state of existence or, B) I find some method to end my current state of existence.

From this I examine the situation. Do I want to continue to live in my current state of existence? Most times yes, but I have been severely depressed throughout my life at times and have questioned an alternative. So in those instances, do I want to end this current state and step into an unknown? The answer is always no. I would ALWAYS rather know than not know. And by choosing option A I will ALWAYS know, even if that's the knowledge that I do not know what happens after this state. Option B is surrendering all knowledge in turn for the mysterious and unknowable.

>>4334506
>Is your thought of something the same as the thing itself?
No.
If the only access to something we have is through our experiences then how can we say this thing exists independent of our experience of it (especially when the statement: 'Objective reality exists', is in-itself a subjective experience.)

>>4334071
Isn't it reason enough that if you were a shitty excuse for a human being your whole life, the guilt would eventually catch up to you? Regardless of if the "karma" of your shitty choices keeps you out of some afterlife, wouldn't it fucking suck to suddenly realize you've been an ass since you were born?

>>4334505
And that's where the contradiction lies.
If pain = bad and pain = pleasure then you get pain = bad = pleasure = good
While one can derive pleasure from pain, something cannot be intrinsically good and bad at the same time.

>>4334516
Yes!! It is.
But nevertheless you have to deal with several billion apparent other beings that more or less share your range of possible experiences.

>>4334512
You
>>If pain is intrinsically bad, and pleasure is intrinsically good, then actions causing these must also have the same status
neo
>why
you
>If a=b and a=c, then b=c

What the fuck are you trying to say?

>>4334516
It's an unknown, and it is best to continue living as if this were the case.

>>4334519
It very much can be.

The serial killer dissecting a live victim may be in an orgasmic state of bliss.
The person being killed is probably not sharing it.

>>4334521
>But nevertheless you have to deal with several billion apparent other beings that more or less share your range of possible experiences.
Proof?
Or is this just another one of your subjective thoughts..
Your thoughts don't relate to outer things, they relate to a relationship you have created between *your* mental constructs.

>>4334522
You responded to the wrong post bro.

>>4334527
>Contradictions can be true
I would expect nothing more from a hedonist.

>>4334530
If I have to prove to you that the external world exists then why are you here at all?

What are you doing?

>>4334519
>While one can derive pleasure from pain, something cannot be intrinsically good and bad at the same time.
This is just a language game.
Pain=bad things
If someone gets pleasure from pain then they aren't in pain, they aren't experiencing bad things.
ergo no contradiction.

>>4334537
4chan sure is a house of stupid assholes thinking they know everything.

>>4334540
>only bad things cause pain
>only good things cause pleasure
>derive pleasure from pain
>intrinsically good and bad at the same time
This is a contradiction.

>>4334545
To you. Not the people doing it.

>>4334538
>If I have to prove to you that the external world exists then why are you here at all?
What?
This conversation that I am having consists of me interacting with my own experience. I have assigned the same meaning to your words that I have assigned to my own words. The meaning you ascribe to your own words makes no difference to my experience.

>>4334540
You're denying the fact that they ARE in pain. They just happen to enjoy it.

>>4334551
So.... What are you talking about again?

>>4334550
But if an action that causes pleasure is intrinsically good by the commutative property, and this same action that causes pain is intrinsically bad by the commutative property, you have a contradiction.

>>4334553
Wat.

House does sadomasochism even coexist with your worldview.
People pay to get beat and treated like shit.
People enjoy both sides of the interaction.

Just wat.

>>4334545
>only bad things cause pain
The only bad thing is pain
>only good things cause pleasure
The only good thing is pleasure
>derive pleasure from pain
Your playing language games. Replace the word pain with killing babies.
>intrinsically good and bad at the same time
Killing babies isn't wrong, it just is. Only the outcome (bad feels, or good feels) can be intrinsically good.

>>4334563

How do you define pain and pleasure? A one sentence response wont do it.

>>4334567
>denying the commutative property

>>4334574
>Denying reality for what you think is morality.

This thread is fucking retarded.
Hedonists spewing unprovable and self contradictory bullshit and then saying that contradictions can hold true.

>>4334580
Yet another one off statement with nothing behind it. I credit your brain for creating such bizarre illogical behavior.

>>4334559
You:
>If I have to prove to you that the external world exists then why are you here at all?
Me trying to explain:
You are a product of my internal world. There is no you external to me, you are my mental construct I've used to label some aspect of that which is being experienced by me.

>>4334595

Once again. This isn't procedural Google chat. I exist. If you can't take my word for it then why speak to anyone but yourself.

They may be complete hallucinations or otherwise not exist.

>>4334604
> If you can't take my word for it then why speak to anyone but yourself.
This is the only possible thing.
Your experience is unknowable. All I have of you is my experience, so this conversation (to me) consists of me interacting with my own experience.

>>4334235
>>4334254
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>>4334299
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>>4334604


My posting history in this discussion. And I bet anyone here still wouldn't be able to tell me from any other anon posting.

Wonders of the internet.

bump

>>4334629

Ok. Lets assume that's totally correct.

What does it contribute to this discussion? What does it contribute to anything at all?

>>4334649

Also. This is what happens when anyone normal tries to interact with the fucked up nonsense ocean created on these forums.

>>4334658
Nothing, it just is.
Your bringing morality (ie;it doesn't contribute anything ergo it's bad) back into it.
You believe an external reality exists, yet thoughts of an external reality are internally experienced, you aren't thinking about externality your thinking about relationships between your own mental constructs.

>>4334040

Ba ha ha ha ha ha

What a sickness to higher spirits this desire for a "final solution" is! Billions of years of the universe going on, of self-organizing compounds surviving unfathomable hells. A multi-hundred million year ice age! Primitive CNSs responding idiotically, new mutant phenomonologies being generated and discarded with a few surviving as templates for further mutation. Great terrible creatures roaming the earth with delight and despair at various stages of their existence. And then comes a sad ape at the middle of this ever-flowering, this sad ape who barely knows a fraction of his inheritance, of how much of his woe and folly and joy he inherits from the mixture of his physiology and society, and this sad ape whispers "None of this matters UNLESS my megalomania for a persistence of my ape CNS is guaranteed!".

What ill will towards everything else such an ape must hold in his heart! An ill will that even lies to itself, that it exists as a higher "idea" rather than the outgrowth of a beastly drive. But a beastly drive that seeks to overpower all others. Namely something as puny as a type of circuit for easing the workload of normal life, of ordinary justification and motivations. Under the aegis of the lie of "idea" though, this will represent itself to the CNS as "OH MY GOD LIFE ISN'T WORTH LIVING". What a disease then that instead of intensifying the beastly drives and desires that drive all apes, this longing seeks to deny and postpone them until it is satisfied!

>>4334673
which Nietzsche book is this from

>>4334692
I'm not the one that posted that.

However, it strikes me more as original writing. Hopefully this is the case.

>>4334673

Of course it'd be bad faith to suggest that a mere "thought" could wash this all away. Personally in the absence of a mass social machinery of good mental health, most of which seems to be invested in a mixture of tribal resentments, sublimated Christian lying (about morality and psychology), and crass emotional manipulation, you'd be better off with altering physiology.

A mixture of various supplements would probably aid you and a look through http://www.longecity.org/forum/forum/291-bioscience-health-nutrition/ would help. You might even need a change in location. Also exercise. If you have a friend who actually goes to the gym and weight lifts, go with them. Remember, the point is to increase the capacity for and increase your active inner motivation.

You might want to read some anthropology that deals with hunter-gatherer tribes and something on the transition from H&G cultures to Neolithic tribes (not that "AND WITH THAT EVERYONE WAS HAPPIER THAN BEFORE" bullshit, as if the transition wasn't a step backwards for most except certain classes in the transitional society). Focus on how modes of survival determine society (hint: resource monopolies encourage class creation, resources that cannot be monopolized encourage more loose egalitarian bands). At stupid shit people take seriously ("the deservedness of poor people in poverty", "the suffering of the masses", etc) and try to bandaid over, you'll be able to laugh on the inside as if having partaken of a eon long joke.

In a sense, such knowledge allows one the rare luxury of a light-heartedness at a majority of what mass society represents to itself as matters of essential reality rather than simulations of simulations of a mode of survival.

i have never feared death out of a wish to exist, my body will still exist after i die but with no electro-chemical processing being done in my brain, rather i fear death because i believe that i will be missing out on the scientific advancements to be made in the future. I always imagine a world where everyone is connected and shares the entire sum of knowledge at the same time. anything that is contested or cannot within reason be considered true is set aside until new knowledge is gained and whatever changes it brings be accomplished quickly. i think it'd be amazing to live in a world where everyone knows everything there currently is to know and nobody has to die until entropy increases to its maximum. i think that would be great and is the only reason i have to not want to die.

Life is meaningless?

Make it meaningful.

>>4334342
I read some days ago what some anon said that he was working on a theory that every argument ends up devolving into a fight over semantics

>>4334040
>Im not religious at all; but I just cant help but feel like unless there's an afterlife, life is meaningless
Then by all means continue believing.

My stance is thus
>I will pursue truth and understanding up to and only until the point at which the depression incurred is such that it causes me to become unproductive.

>>4334984
Not arguments that start with operational definitions.

>>4335017
can you illustrate me on a example of one?
I'm dumb when it comes to this, I just quoted what one anon said without really understanding its implications

>>4335017
well I'm not asking you to start such an argument but illustrate me on what an argument with operational definitions would be about/like

>>4335022
Say you're arguing with someone over communism.

One person is using the really existing forms of socialism as their operational definition of what communism is.

While you could possibly be defining communism as a stateless and classless society.

If you don't start with the same definition, at no point during the argument will you be able to make a point, because two people are arguing about different things that they both think are the same.

Anyway, operational definitions aren't some super secret smart people shit. Just google it for better understanding.

Is there anything interesting that I can synthesize with naphtha(zippo fluid) or is it too wide of a range of chemicals to make anything specific?

>>4336678
Oops. I meant to start a new thread