/sci/ - Science & Math

If there really are Dyson swarms out there, I feel happy for them.

And angry at us for not having started on our own.

>the government
I don't think it quite works that way.

Hope they're amicable.

I wonder if true FTL is actually impossible, and all there is in the universe is a few neighborhoods of species hunkered down on their home stars, occasionally beaming telegraphs at each other.

I really hope the builders haven't just built a virtual universe for themselves in the swarm and retreated into them.

It's a very slow form of suicide, but it's suicide nonetheless.

This isn't cited by the government it is a research archive of a particular researcher. It also seems to be personal research (done in his own time). Its listed as .gov because he obviously works or worked at fermilab.
At several points in his paper its emphasised that he is only setting an upper limit on such structures, he is not claiming (nor is there evidence to support) any of them are dyson structures.

>>4176029

>implying anyone with a "gov" job can just upload a page with out the government thourougly reviewing and agreeing with it.

>>4176111
>irrational ideas about how the government works
yes.

>>4176136

What?

>>4176016

in that case life itself is similar to suicide in that you know you're going to die and most people are pretty much just resigned to that fact.

think of the sphere as an organism; it doesn't really matter that it will die (and all of its components will die too) as long as at some point it has reproduced. that is, if the inhabitants have sent people & technology out to other younger stars, then they are simply completing a life cycle and the eventual loss of that particular sphere is trivial.

>>4176006

That's actually pretty crazy. They can't explain what it is either.

>>4176015
That would be fucking gay.

>>4176489
>reproduced
see the line
>a virtual universes for themselves in the swarm and retreated into them

If they had spread out, they didn't just retreat, making your post kind of pointless.

>>4176009
Ive always felt the dyson swarms are naturally emergent rather than by design, it starts with a few research sattelites in stellar orbit, followed by hydroponic farms then industry, all revolving around the sun at their own pace until the neccessary orbit becomes so clutters that government is required to manage it at which point the use of the orbit becomes more efficient (swarm to ring) and then after many centuries of this the dyson ring expands to become a sphere.

It seems strange that any species would set out with the goal of building a dyson sphere, at least around their own sun.

>rigid sphere
HURRRR

>>4176015
1) Travelling faster than light through space is impossible. It would require more than an infinite amount of energy...
2) A lack of faster than light travel won't stop us.

>>4176016
A society of billions or perhaps trillions of individuals is almost inherently diverse. It only takes one individual to choose growth over stagnation, to keep the spiral of progress turning. Natural selection dictates that it will be that individual and his progenitors that will survive and not the zombies of the infinite that reside within star fueled virtual worlds. The individual who chose growth will lead in the taming of many more stars, stars that will be used for further progress - like using its computational power to unravel the physics of the impossible - instead of creating yet more monuments to virtual hedonism.

>>4178074
It's not impossible.

Just improbable.

>>4178257
it is inevitable.

do you really think that once we have solved all the obstacles we already face, that we will be satisfied with sitting around?

no, no that is a challenge. And humanity doesn't take challenges sitting down.

>>4176015
John Gribbin's latest book might shed some light for you.

>>4176015
pseudo-FTL communicative is possible in the following sense:
you have 2 planets 10 light years away, you create a FTL link between them and initialize it.
the initialization takes 20 years to complete but after that you have instant communication between the 2 planets.
connecting more that 2 planets would require to create a network of these devices that never create a closed loop of communication, otherwise the device stops working.

its pseudo-FTL because it doesn't cause any of the problems real FTL cause such as time travel paradoxes.

i know this works becasue i designed the device, it can also be used to put a whole satellite in a superposition to test QM.

If you accept the hypothesis that the human brain is a chemical computer (maybe chemical + quantum), then that implies that it has a regular structure that may be observed and manipulated.

This opens up the possibility of post-physical ego, and artificial body space exploration. We might even be one day able to create bodies identical to the ones possessed by the post-physical humans from elements.

>>4176006
>>4176015
http://www.science20.com/alpha_meme/opera_confirms_faster_light_neutrinos_and_indicates_ultra_superl
uminal_small_initial_jumps-84774

Comfirms neutrinos max speed is millions times speed of light

>>4178304
>oh boy

It doesn't matter how long it takes to initialise the link, if one bit of information can be transmitted in less than the time it takes light to get there it violates SR and causes paradoxes.

Just because you made shit up doesn't mean it isn't nonsense.

>>4178332
Not confirmed, the result from OPERA will only be confirmed when another experiment with a completely different timing set-up gets the same result. It will be a few years at least.

>>4178304

>pseudo-FTL communicative is possible in the following sense:
>you create a FTL link between them and initialize it.

I love how your solution to FTL communication.....

Is to create FTL communication.

>>4178341
The best cure for the world hunger is to feed the people.

>>4178342

Seems legit.

>>4178339
It was confirmed, first of all CERN has detected superluminal neutrino, then OPERA did another test to confirm/disprove, this time they accounted relativity but the result still the same ...superluminal neutrino still being detected

>>4178333
>>4178341
it doesn't cause any paradoxes, you need 2 end to end to create any paradoxes (just like how a single wormhole doesn't create any paradox but 2 forming a loop does) and the act of initializing it destroys the previous link if you try to create a loop. and "FTL-link" is just what its called, i guess it should be called a pseudo-FTL link, but its just a name for the 3 communication channels (if you want to send 1 bit at a time), one normal classical channel and 2 channels that are entangles with each other. this is what makes the instant communication possible, you entangle 2 photons and send both to the other planet along with a classical channel.

>>4178074 It would require more than an infinite amount of energy...

You don't know what you're talking about

>>4178354
No, neutrinos are generated at CERN and detected by OPERA in both runs of the experiment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laboratori_Nazionali_del_Gran_Sasso

>>4178378
No actually he's quite correct. Special relativity dictates it would take an infinite amount of energy to reach the speed of light.

>>4178374
You don't understand quantum entanglement. Entangled photons don't travel any faster than regular photons and they cannot be used to transfer information once separated. Altering the state of an entangled particle destroys the entanglement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem

>"no-communication theorem is a result which gives conditions under which instantaneous transfer of information between two observers is impossible."

>>4178390
no he isnt. all SR said is that accelerating from slower that c to c or faster than c would need infinite energy, if you dont have to accelerate or if it is always FTL, you dont need infinite energy. you will however need equally weird shit to get it done, but not infinite energy.

>>4178400
>You don't understand quantum entanglement
yes i do, this isnt your "hur dur, its entangled thus its instant" shit, it works in a completely different way, but uses entanglement.

>they cannot be used to transfer information once separated
they are never separated, both entangles photons are sent to the other planet.

>Altering the state of an entangled particle destroys the entanglement.
thats basically how it works, planet 1 can detect if its entangled or not, while planet 2 can chose to keep it entangles or not.

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem
not applicable to this device

the principle has already been tested at a distance of about 2m and it works.

>>4178390
> you can't travel at the speed of light
> only a fraction of it, 0.999...
> 0.999... = 1
> you can travel at the speed of light

>>4178412
>thats basically how it works, planet 1 can detect if its entangled or not, while planet 2 can chose to keep it entangles or not.

If both photons are sent to planet 2 how could planet 1 alter their state.
You also can't detect when a particle is no longer entangled.

>>4178412
>the principle has already been tested at a distance of about 2m and it works

You've built an ansible?

>>4178416
when you put an infinite amount of energy into an object, it can travel at the speed of light. There doesn't exist in the universe an infinite amount of energy- and even if there did, you couldn't use it. you can't get 0.9r from adding 0.9^n+1 to 0.9^n a finite number of times.

>>4178412
You cannot communicate information through quangled particles. It's simply impossible.

>>4178420
it works in almost the same way as a delayed choice quantum eraser, but changed to allow communication. the secret is "freezing" the other planet for 40 years when its initializing. "freezing" is a term used to describe how the events that are seen to happen at the same time from the planets frame get shifted 20 years to the future.

>>4178425
not me personally, but ive seen one. its being used to test something of QFT at the moment, but im not sure what exactly they are using it for.

>>4178425
I also read that book

>>4178435
Could this device be used to communicate with a vessel traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light?

>>4178435
>but changed to allow communication.
this is not sufficient to explain away decades of research on quantum entanglement.
source.

>>4178449
ill try to find a picture / draw a picture of it. it would be easier.

>source.
no public sources yet, maybe late next year

>>4178442
yes it should be possible, but it would be difficult to do because of the time dilation and Doppler shifts.

>>4178456
>no public sources yet, maybe late next year
That's nice.
If all of modern physics changes late next year then i'll be over the moon but as it stands communication by quantum entanglement is impossible.
When presented with mere rumor and vague, hand wavy detail about an experiment, scepticism is the proper course of action.

pic of setup

>>4178477
>scepticism is the proper course of action
as it should be

>>4178501
> clasicle channel

>>4178505
excuse my spelling
>English is hard

http://spider.seds.org/spider/Mars/Marsrock/marsrocks.html

>mfw evidence of life elsewhere in the solar system has already been found
>mfw there's not really a good reason for why it isn't taken srsly
>mfw Mars was suitable for life before Earth was
>mfw Mars had liquid water for millions, possibly even billions of years
>mfw we've never found fossil evidence of life as old or so small on our planet before
>mfw Earth got a kickstart from falling Mars rocks containing primitive life
>mfw we're all Martian descendants

>>4178501
I don't really see how that would transmit usable information.

>>4178501
cant understand shit captain

>>4178536
Yeah, weird that this shit wasn't all over the news. We discover fucking aliens, and no one gives a shit.
Also, the other day I was watching a documentary about solar system, and they said : "Yeah now it's confirmed that there was life on Mars at some time.".
Also, it is very likely that there is some life on Europe, since we now know there is a liquid ocean under the ice.

>>4178616

Which is more likely:

We discovered aliens but the entire scientific community collectively agree to ignore it.

or

We discovered chemical compounds on a meteor which appeared to be signs of life, but they didn't hold up to further investigation.

>>4178616
Yeah, I'm from Europe and I can confirm there really is life here.

>>4178616
Also confirming life in Europe. It's massively diverse, far more than we expect to find on an extraplanetary object.

>>4178642
seconding this. We didn't find life, we found some chemicals that life forms use.

>>4178277
>>4178257
It's IMPOSSIBLE. Learn the math or GTFO!

>>4178655
>>4178647
>Life in Europe
How can we be sure you are actually from Europe and not Martian life trying to troll us again?

>>4178753
I'm from the neighboring scandinavia and I can confirm that there's somewhat intelligent life in Europe.

>>4178616
That shit was all over the news. Including Clinton's speech in the WH garden.

They conveniently didn't cover how it's probably not real life though.

>>4179024
Scandinavia is part of Europe, it's in the same solar orbit as it at the same speed. Martian lies

>>4178753
beep boop humans