/sci/ - Science & Math

Herp all pathogens bad
Derp vaccines good

>pseudoscience

inb4 biology

I love that podcast. Surprisingly informative.

The Government doesn't rule out stuff like homeopathy because they keep their product claims just non specific enough to not be illegal. I think

>>4089610
That is honestly the most intelligent form of answer you can give?

>>4089614
But they claim it can treat ailments. Which is completely idiotic and a false claim.

I would try that OP, but I honestly think it will make me rage too much. So I'm going to spare myself from that.

Not even joking

>>4089620
Rage in which way?

>>4089591

Its hilarious how impressionable you are.

>>4089630
So, you're telling me the anti-vaccine movement is right AND homoeopathy works, is that right?

If it's not what you want to say and only want to personally attack me, there's a board called >>>/b/ for all your trolling needs.

>>4089634

>So, you're telling me the anti-vaccine movement is right AND homoeopathy works, is that right?

Really?
Is that really what you inferred from this:
>Its hilarious how impressionable you are

Just take you medicine kid.

>>4089649
Yes, there's nothing else implied in my opening post. I hate things that are scientifically bogus, and it's what my opening refers to.

Again, for all your trolling needs and shitty memes alongside with a sweet drop of reddit, go to >>>/b/

>>4089591

>Why is it not banned and illegal yet everywhere in the world There's TONS of scientific evidences that both are literally unfounded bullshit.

Why do you assume that unfoundedness is sufficient for an activity to be illegalized?

>>4089662

You're right OP, and that other guy is just trolling, ignore him.

Consider that even if you tried to help the people being fleeced by this shit they'd just get mad at you for telling them it isn't real because it makes them feel stupid. So you may as well get cut in on those profits. Look into selling healing crystals or those magnet/hologram health bracelets. A few run-ins with people who shout you down because you try to help them avoid being scammed will allow you to turn around and scam those people with a clear conscience. They WANT to be fooled and are hostile to anyone who tries to prevent it.

>>4089701
I guess I didn't say it clearly enough, but it actually HARMS people. They think this will work to cure their ailments so they often totally skip the real medicine to only take the one that won't work, resulting in many casualties. Like I said, I wouldn't ban shit like acupuncture, because they are pretty harmless in the sense that people won't skip real medicine to get this instead(well, obviously SOME will do this, but it's not lots of people). Also, anti-vaccine is starting to bring back shit that we thought were gone, disease are coming back and it's terrible.

>>4089712
Like I said, I classify this as totally something else. People getting trolled by this are gullible and they obviously won't listen, as this can cause harm. If you tell someone their kid have a way higher percent chance to fucking die because they're not getting vaccine BY THE GOVERNMENT, they will probably listen.

Of course, after that the anti-vaccine movement will claim conspiracies.

>>4089743
>People getting trolled by this are gullible and they obviously won't listen, as this can cause harm.

>as this can cause NO harm

Fixed.

I think people should be allowed to do as much stupid shit as they want. Should people play lottery? People ruin their lives gambling, it's the same thing.

But I kinda feel your pain. What personally irks me is how the news talk about shit they obviously don't know a shit about, which is pretty much everything. Everytime they talk about anything that deals with probability I believe they're actually trolling me.

>>4089752
I agree, this is basic freedom. However, and this is more the case of the vaccine, it's public health. Someone contaminated gives ME health risks. I don't want to get some really deadly virus because they're too stupid to get a shot due to autism and mercury scaremongering.

>>4089764

How exactly can you develop a disease that you have been vaccinated for?

A doctor told us about some kind of epidemic of renal failure a few years ago that was later found to be linked to the consumption of some chinese plant as an alternative medicine. Well to be fair, a lot of diseases have also been linked to actual medicine. I think a good compromise is what is currently being made which is a database that allow the doctor to see if the stuff his patient is taking might be dangerous or negatively interact with the treatment.

Other than that, you can't expect dumb people not to be dumb.

>>4089764
> Someone contaminated gives ME health risks.
For some reason, my brain didn't consider that. Now I'm mad as fuck.

>Why is it not banned and illegal yet everywhere in the world?
>>4089662
It's your adoption of a scientific narcissism which is immature. Get off your high-horse and let people suffer if they want to.

>>4089791
Not everyone respond to a vaccine.
Also, children can't have all their vaccine at a young age and so are at risk with certain diseases.

We can also make it illegal for people to leave their house when they have a fever.

>My health is your responsibility!

>>4089798
I... I didn't know this. You don't have any idea what was that about? The name of the plant? anything? I'm kind of shocked.

>>4089804
I don't want to suffer, or anyone that actually has concern with his health to suffer.

>>4089833
A fever is not really a harmful disease, don't you think?

>>4089808

>Not everyone respond to a vaccine.

Then it (Disease) would happen irrespective of whether one has or hasnt taken their vaccine.

>Also, children can't have all their vaccine at a young age and so are at risk with certain diseases

Those children are at a risk of developing the Diseases as much as those that (Didnt want) havent taken their Vaccine.

So what would illegalization exactly achieve?

>>4089892
Probabilities. There's way less probability for you to get something if you have had the vaccine. Medicine is never 100% accurate, it's about positive vs negative.

Also, the only thing that should be done in the vaccine area is just stop anti-vaccine movements. I can understand that some people don't want to get vaccinated for various reasons, such as religion. However, the movements are scaring people for no reason, using the worst fucking studies ever to back up their faulty claims.

>>4089837
After I quick reasearch, I found these : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11805172, http://www.sharkeyshealingcentre.com.au/content/media/not-worth-the-weight/

>>4089892
see the picture
For children I don't remember exactly what was the disease but basically :
Say a guy lives through childhood without encountering a certain pathogen (protected by vaccinated people). He becomes a teacher and eventually contracts the disease. As he is an adult, he is more or less symptomatic but isn't at a life risk. The children, however, aren't yet vaccinated and have a much less developed immune system and develop a high mortality disease that we'd hope was eradicated. An important thing to note is that there are little to no treatments against viral diseases, which is why vaccines are so important.

>>4090019
>Commercial herbal concoctions offering easy solutions to weight problems should be avoided unless prescribed on a professional basis, said Gold Coast natural therapist Ruth Sharkey.
>said a natural therapist

I sure can take this one with a grain of salt, but it does not invalidate the whole thing. Thanks the links however, read them.

>>4090112
yeah I know but it seemed more digest than the pubmed link. If you're motivated for even more just search for "chinese phytotherapy erasme hospital"

>Why is it not banned and illegal yet everywhere in the world?

So that the inherently worthless vile scum like me, that deserves to be slowly tortured to death but won't be because of humanitarian principles of western civilization, can make a living by preying on the gullible and desperate. because otherwise the lowly scum I am wouold be unemployed.

>>4089837
It is likely to be a symptom of a virus. Do you just arbitrarily choose which probability you feel safe, do you just swear by any vaccine no matter what probability against disease contraction it gives you or do you just like using science to justify your angst?

I mean, if you really indiscriminately care about the health and safety of the human race on the probabilistic and statistic level then you'd be petitioning against US involvement in foreign countries -- cause, you know, you'd also have to convince less people to see things your way.

>>4089591
> I ask a complete and legitimate question : Why is it not banned and illegal yet everywhere in the world?
Are you serious? That would itself crush science just as quick as it wiped out pseudoscience. Jesus, just think about it for three seconds.

>>4089837
>A fever is not really a harmful disease, don't you think?
1.) you don't vaccinate against diseases
2.) it is potentially a symptom of a virus your immune system is not capable of handling, therefore you should care I think.
3.) you shouldn't play dumb

So tell me, you were talking about probability elsewhere, do you just arbitrarily choose which probability you feel safe with, do you just swear-by any vaccine no matter what probability against disease contraction it gives you or do you just like using science to justify your angst? Perhaps though, your "hate" is just disingenuous advocacy to begin with because that's certainly nothing new around here on 4chan.

I mean, if you really indiscriminately care about the health and safety of the human race on a probabilistic/statistic/scientific/figures level then you'd be petitioning against US involvement in foreign countries -- cause, you know, you'd also have to convince less people to see things your way.

>Why is it not banned and illegal yet everywhere in the world?
>Gibbe international trillion-dollar contracts please.

>>4090213
0/5

I agree with op. I don't know what to do about society's anti-rationalism though. I think there should be a course in grade school where you just learn about cognitive biases and how to be rational.

>>4090236
> he thinks self-moderated organizations have never abused their authority ever
Don't like a scientist? Accuse him of pseudoscience! Problem solved. Yes, this will surely usher in a new wave of excellent science.

>>4090257
>implying that the only way we know (or could know) that homoeopathy is false is by accusations

>>4090267
It would make more sense if Homeopathy was illegal as a medical practice, and nothing more.
That phrasing would still allow studies in homeopathy, without giving lawyers room to screw other people over.

>>4090227
I'm trying to understand this post but I can't

Are you saying that if we vaccinate for some diseases we should vaccinate for every diseases ?

>>4090227
>mfw I was reading it
>mfw I look at the name

Ho, I was like wait what. I'm also sorry for saying disease instead of a virus, English isn't my first language. Also, to be honest, I have no fucking idea what you're even trying to say in that post other than a long formulation of "You are mad against something, so you hate blinded faith in the counterpart", is that it? I am not against testing rigorously vaccines as some might have really noticeable side effects, but if the thing it's used against make sense to get because it's a risk and the cons are something I can either risk or deal with it, I will take it.

>>4090276
I ain't sure either.

>>4090272
What's wrong with making it illegal to make false claims about the effectiveness of drugs that you're selling?

I don't care about labels like "medicine" or "science." I just care that humans are wasting effort on useless things, while getting paid for it thanks to our gullibility.

>>4090282
Ho, I was like wait what.
>I'm also sorry for saying disease instead of a virus, English isn't my first language.
It's ok, I also slipped up and use disease instead of virus too. It's a small thing but if you want to be taken seriously then it is important to use the correct words, debates can never work if you always expect the other person 'to understand what you meant'. BUT, this implies you failed at comprehending my previous distinction.

>Also, to be honest, I have no fucking idea what you're even trying to say
I can understand that, especially if you didn't understand what I was saying in the first comment.

Basically you feel safer around somebody with a fever and unknown virus rather than somebody without a virus and vaccine.

>>4090294
It IS illegal to make PATENTLY false claims. It IS NOT illegal to make ambiguous claims. Lord help you if you want to make ambiguous claims illegal. Talk about proverbially treating the symptoms and not the cause!

>>4090267
You're missing the point. Who would judge whether something was scientifically valid? Might as well ask Disney to set laws on expiration of copyright. If you can't see the moral hazard, you shouldn't even be thinking about legislation because it is way, way over your head.

While your sentiment is admirable OP you're never gonna stop the snake oil salesman from finding snake oil customers. Consider the amount of people who use drugs like crack and heroin despite the enormous disincentives. Health and reason are not the motivating factors here.

>>4090516
Of course, but there's thing that could be way better legislated.

It's history repeating itself again, sadly.

>>4090693
As an avid historian I would like to know which bit of history you are referring to.

>>4091075
not >>4090693 but I assume he's talking about the turn of the century patent medicine market in the United States and europe