/sci/ - Science & Math

It seems to me that the majority of people who feel the need to "correct" religious individuals are those who are most uncertain about their own beliefs.

>>4068236

No, it's not about me wanting to "correct" them. You misinterpret my point.

It's when these evangelicals come up to me and start "debating" me, or when some guy starts talking to me on the internet, or when I'm talking to a friend of a friend or something. It's not about me being a "militant atheist" or whatever. It's me wanting to be prepared to defend what I personally rationalize intelligently and concisely, whilst hopefully expanding the intellectual curiosity of those that generally are very closed minded.

There's no point in arguing with them, OP. Just respect their beliefs.

Anything you say can be countered with "God put that there to test us"

>>4068248

I do respect their beliefs. I was a former Christian. I believe that Religion is a beautiful thing that really helps millions of people that otherwise would be complete trainwrecks without it, and I think it's an integral part of society.

I do, however, want to know if there are any ways, tactics, or methods that fellow /sci/ users have to help encourage intellectual curiosity and actually convincing them, even if they don't admit it, to look into matters themselves instead of sitting there listening to a pastor. Whether or not they choose to rationalize as I do is irrelevant, I just want them to RATIONALIZE instead of let some retard who got a degree is theology at some bible institute make life changing decisions for them.

That's all I ever want when I talk to a Christian, is for them to look into it themselves. I just don't know how to, as they so eloquently put it, "Plant the seed."

Just pretend you're an Odinist and tell them that you're certain the Norse creation story has more merit than the Ancient Canaanite one they believe.

Trolling is the only option for dealing with people like that.

(assuming they're christians and not some dumb deist bullshit)

I don't argue with them, I laugh and walk away.

>>4068290

That's just the problem. I got this complex where I can't stand people being so ignorant of rationality. As I said, they don't have to believe it -- that's not my intention. I just want them to THINK for themselves and be aware of what is established science. I just don't know how to convey that in a way that interests them, despite being a deconverted Christian myself. It baffles me honestly why I can't think of this.

>>4068297
You have the exact same mindset as them.

They want yo to believe for a second, and you want them to think about theories for a second.

You're both too vain and arrogant to share any kind of wisdom amongst yourselves.

>>4068311

I don't want them to think about theories for a second, I want them to think for THEMSELVES for a second.

Is that really that similar to some evangelistic christian?

>>4068319
>Person A thinks he's right and has all the answers
>Person B think's he's right and has all the answers
>They try to convince each other of their own truths while thinking "this guy just refuses to even seriously consider my argument for a second"

It doesn't mater if you're A or B, you're an idiot for trying to argue like you do.

For all the talk about rational thinking you sure seem to be doing none.

>>4068345

That's not my position at all.

My position is that everyone should rationalize for themselves with all the evidence, instead of taking some random guys' word at your church. Even on my "side" this is true, I think a lot of Atheists/Agnostics should take a good, long look at major religions and evaluate their own reasoning with that of the religious. No one has all the answers, and the only way to make a rational decision is to culminate the ideas of many different people -- not just one figurehead in your church, or in a book you read, or a person you idolize in the scientific field.

However, do humor me then -- you say I'm an idiot for arguing "like I do."

What is the correct way to argue then, do tell?

>>4068222
The problem is you are treating them like "people", when they are not. Christfags are not humans, they are animals. They have none of the higher brain function that real humans have.

Would you argue with a dog or cat? Nope. You just realize they are a lower life form and walk away. Do the same shit with christfags.

>>4068222

The problem with arguing members of any religion is that you can not use logic or rationality. Religion is all about appeals to emotion, justice, sense of purpose, etc. When members of a religion try to argue, they're already trapped in their belief and will come up with anything they can to justify that belief. No matter how rationally you state your point, you cannot convert them using logic and reasoning alone.

That being said, not all hope is lost. You're just going to have to come up with some roundabout way of planting the seeds of doubt. I remember when I first lost my faith, I realized every time I thought about thinking negative thoughts about religion, I felt guilty (since obviously God is watching everything you think). As soon as I noticed I was feeling guilty just for thinking, I decided I did not live with a trapped mind. Besides, if God was real, he should stand any and all thoughts I could come up with. As soon as I let myself think anything I wanted, the everything fell apart instantly.

You'll have to make arguments like these, such as telling people to feel guilty for thinking critically of their own religion (this might be very difficult since it sounds so condescending). Once you can open the door to rationality, it's quite easy to pick religion apart. Also suggest people to read more, ignorance is always an enemy in these situations. If possible, convince them to read the Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins.

>>4068353
>everyone should rationalize for themselves

A religiousfag is incapable of rational thought. They simply aren't smart enough.

>>4068372

I was a religiousfag. It took well over a year or two, and lot of feeling like utter shit that everything I knew and trusted in may have been wrong, but I finally made my own rational thought. It was when I first said "I am an Atheist."

It was the most depressing, yet strangely liberating and happy moments of my life.

>>4068372

thats just bullshit, my friend is the most religious fanatic ever, however, he gets perfect scores in informatics.

If you could rationalize with them they wouldn't be Christian. But think about this what if you DO manage to convince them. You could potentially ruin their life and destroy their their relationships with their parents and every other religious perosn they know. Just leave them be.

>>4068389
Your friend has imaginary friends. This is mental disability. He may be good at someother shit, but he is still mentally disabled. There are people like this, they are called svants.

If you are really his friend you will make sure he gets help.

The only thing that kept me as a Christian, and still makes me sad today is the idea of death. I still can't accept the idea of me dying, and that's just it. I hope some form of reincarnation is true, because it would really suck to die and go to hell or to just die and that be it.

I would have to completely disagree with some of what is being said in here, especially with the broad brush strokes Christians are being painted with.

I'm Christian and I'm Catholic, don't always agree with the Church but that leads to debates that lead to greater understanding.

I see the wonders of God's creation through science. In fact I believe that eating the forbidden fruit of knowledge, which I further believe was part of the plan, we attained the knowledge to create the scientific fields needed to understand God's creation and fulfill the purpose of the fruit.

For those that would call me a nutcase, before you do, please answer a few questions.

First, if, 6000 years ago, you created something 13.7 billion years old, how old is your creation?

Second, if you took all the parts of a digital camera from the transistors to the casing and put them in a box, then shook box, how long would you have to shake that box before you had a working camera?

Third, given that in quantum physics, physics at the subatomic level, fundamental particles can blink into existence in pairs and annihilate each other an instant later, and Stephen Hawking has proposed that the particle that was the fuel for the big bang blinked into existence out of nowhere, why is it so absurd to believe that a consciousness couldn't?

There is no point in arguing with a creationist. It's like arguing with a solid brick wall. If somebody is stupid enough to grow up to be an adult in the late 20th/early 21st century and STILL believe that the world is 6000 years old, I don't think that a debate with you will change their mind.

The manipulation and brainwashing is just way too deep. No common sense helps there.

You could try though. If you do, it is vital to put your arguments in the most simple, most understandable form for them.

I'd start like this: "Imagine you are born 2000 years ago. Somewhere in the desert. Your life consists of tending to a group of goats and trying to survive. You do not have any knowledge of any modern science. No physics, no math, no biology, no chemistry, no cosmology absolutely nothing. And because you are curious about the world you live in, you fill the gaps with myths that already exist and make up your own little stories. Eventually you gather followers by convincing them of your stories. You write them down to what later becomes the bible."

Just tell it like it is - a fairy tale. It's just a made up story. A made up story written by sandpeople living in huts 2000 years ago. Completely outdated and unfit for the science we have in the 21 century.

I generally pity those people but if one of them insults science, get angry. Tell them to stop driving their fucking SUVs, use their computer, any artificial lighting, warm water, stop taking medicine or going to the doctor and tell them the survival chance of their infants would...

ah fuck this I'm wasting way too much time on this shitty forum again

>_> Seems I've created a "does not compute" loop in the minds of the creation/Christian bashers by forcing them to divide by zero. Sorry folks, seems we have moments before multiple holes the size of Belgium are blown in the universe. It's been fun.

>>4068222
This "Zaden" >>4068435, proves my point comepletly OP. Christians are fucking retarded.

Notice how he thinks he is making "points", but all he is doing is spouting meaningless dribble. These people are essentially too dumb to argue with or even converse with. They dont have critical thinking skills whatsofuckingever.

Don't waste your time on these people, they are beyond help. What you need to do it think about how you can help prevent this "sickness" in future generations.

>>4068435
>First, if, 6000 years ago, you created something 13.7 billion years old, how old is your creation?

This is something that I always ask myself, even though I'm not religious.
See if I was God, I'd imagine that the control I have over the universe is the same omnipotent control an author in the real world has over the imaginary world that you invent when reading his book.
The book has physical limits, but the description of the universe has none. The author simply has to write something like "there was boundless space in every direction" for it to be true in THAT imaginary universe, which is as real to the characters as this one to us. The author just has to write "the universe was 13.7 billion years old" and it would be for the sake of the story - even though the book was written yesterday for all we know.

Why debate them? If they dont care to learn about the world around them why should it fall to you to try to give them a crash course in what they've been neglecting throughout a decade plus of school?

Just make a mental note that they are incapable of participating in adult discussions and stick to subjects that they are willing to put effort into comprehending.

Its not a battle, you're not fighting for a "side" they are ignorant and thats a result of choices that they made.

Maybe they spent their time learning about something else and could actually say something interesting if you change topics.

But probably not. Still, hope springs eternal.

>>4068412

youre retarded, because there are only 25-30 known savants in the world.

>>4068464
>First, if, 6000 years ago, you created something 13.7 billion years old, how old is your creation?

This is possibly the stupidest, most fucking retarded shit, I have ever heard on /sci/. That question is literally fucking moronic and nonsensical.

Only people with mental illness think that question makes fucking sense. LMFAO

/x/->

>>4068457
And you're taking the moral high ground by throwing around insults and not even attempting to answer the questions I proposed?

The six thousand year mark for the age of the Earth is based upon the seven days of creation being based on seven 24 hr solar Earth days. That is an assumption I do not ascribe to. For what is a day in the eyes of one who does not live on Earth?

The digital camera question was raise question to the odds of amino acids coming together just perfectly to form life and that simple life evolving in just the right way to become highly complex. I'm not saying there isn't evolution, it would be foolish to believe that something that could create all the life on Earth would ignore the need for life to adapt to a changing world.

And the third, well, that's just a fun question of meta-physics and philosophical debate.

>>4068222
>How much alcohol does one I have to drink to start thinking like a christain?

How much braincells do you need to kill?

>>4068486
If you pose an actual intelligble question, then maybe someone would try to answer it.

Your current questions are mornonic, kid. You need to grow the fuck up. Santa Clause isn't real, neither is the Easter Bunny, neither is God.

Fucking act like an adult and fucking deal with it, instead of trying to construct some needlessly overcomplicated framework that accomidates your fucked up fantasy and bends known reality. Lex Parsimony motherfucker!

>>4068486
>Hey, guize, I will oversimplify very complex issues, with shit analogies.

That always works, right?

Oh I am fully versed in Occam's Razor. But I also know that more that is learned of the universe the more questions that get raised.

Simplest generally is best, but that's not always realty. Take black holes. The simplest solution to what happens to information when pulled in is that it is destroyed as proposed by Stephen Hawking. In reality, the Hologram Principle shows that information is both in the black hole at the center and on the event horizon. Hardly, simple.

>>4068520

Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

>>4068520
Gotta love that herd mentality. I bet you buy the hologram stuff, don't you? Even though I'd be willing to bet you don't understand what they're trying to say. Thoughts on strings?

And you're insults are embarrassing you showing how insecure you really are since you can't even bring yourself to post anything but insults.

>>4068520
>Well versed in Occamz razor
>Believes in magic

Nope.

Yes, "more evidence" can change previously concieved notions about the universe. However, there has NEVER FUCKING EVER, been more "evidence for magic". In fact the evidence for magic (god) has gone to "0" over time. Unless, I missed some huge announcment? Did we in fact discover anything that proves magic?

LMFAO, go to bed kid

>>4068526
Oh string theory. I LOVE string theory. String theory actually makes a lot of sense especially when one adds in the existence of dark matter. The 9+ dimensions of the various string theories would perfectly explain where dark matter is, why we can't see it, and why it doesn't interfere with photons.

I could go on, but you'd just assume that I have no idea what I'm talking about because you've yet to put up any facts to disprove me or even debate the questions I've proposed. You're actually as bad as the people you hate since you say that it's pointless debating them, like debating a stonewall. Instead of debating you just sit there firm in the belief in your own superiority.

The sharing and debating of ideas is at the very core of what science is. You sully it by acting superior and failing to keep an open mind when ideas contrary to your own are presented.

>>4068222
Instead of trying to alter the decades of religious brainwashing on grownup's, you should try to take a more active role in your community to make sure poor kids like Zaden don't end up as fucking retarded as their parents.

There may still be hope for young Zaden (~12 years old). You need to get active in your community and the education system OP.

>>4068550
Oh fuck you, I'm 27 years old. On my way to becoming well read in the literature, religions, and sciences of the world.

If you can't even have a debate about ideas that you disagree with why are you even on the science and math thread when science is about exploring the unknown truths of existence?

>>4068541
>Wonders why no one will argue with him

Your "thinking ability" has been made shockingly apparent, by the quality of your posts. /sci/ doesn't like to pick on the mentally disabled. I wish you the best, and hope you are getting the help you need.

>>4068541
>WHOOOSH

You're all insufferable bastards, you know that? You are so assured of you're own superiority that you can't even bring yourself to debate with people who don't think like you. You claim to have open minds but really they're all closed to ideas you've already passed judgement on. And anyone who brings up ideas you've judged as inferior to your own gets insulted over and over showing just how pig-headed you really are.

>>4068554
>27years old

WTF? Calling bullshit (or from the american south).

If you don't see the obvious mistake you have made by believing in magic (yet claiming to abide by lex parsimony), then you truly are beyond help.

It is okay though, not everyone needs to have a fully working brain. There are tons of mentally handicapable people like you, who do fine in life. They lead good lives and function just like regular people. Some even meet other handicapable people, and start families!

>>4068564
>>4068564
see
>>4068559

When did I say I believed in magic? I never once mentioned magic in any one of my posts. Link me to one post in which I mentioned magic before this post. If you can't then STFU about magic.

Just because I can't explain something doesn't mean I call it magic. I do believe everything can be explained with science in some shape or another even if it takes scientific tools we've yet to develop.

>>4068570
This is pretty much it. I see where you stand intellectually, tripfag. At this point it's not worth any effort. My favorite was your take on strings. Missing the point, did you really think "haha, I'll show him. Check me out when I drop this knowledge I picked up in that Brain Greene doc".

Someone points out something the scientific community talks about that has no evidence, and you say "Oh I love it, it's so great!". Figures.

>>4068564
>1) Presents no new ideas or concepts

>2) Presents ideas so inherently ridiculous and laughable, that no one even takes the time to debate him

>3) Throws a temper tantrum that "no one is taking him seriously"

Trollin?

>I can never debate a Creationist.

Duh. You can't reason with religious people.

You fucking retarded faggot.
Just fucking die. You're a lonely faggot loser with no friends. You have autism and you will never find love.
You're a disgrace to me, your mother and aunt. A complete disgrace.
I can't believe you're even alive. Your STUPID beliefs mean nothing in the grand total of things.
But seriously, believing in a god that isn't real will give you a feeling of having had a full life.
If you think that's bad, then you're sick and stupid and should burn burn burn in hell forever you motherfucking cocksucker.

>>4068572
>Implying god <=> magic

Just stop kid, you are fucking embarrasing yourself. This is just fucking sad now.

Ask your mom to take you to the library, and read as many books as you can.

>>4068572
>>4068582
From now on I will associate the name 'Zaden' with a retarded baboon.

>>4068582
This is why you don't talk to christians. They just aren't worth the time, and can't make an intellecutal arguement for shit. Then they results to name calling.

>>4068592
FUCK YOU

>>4068595
>LOLSHOWEDUIWASTROLLINGTHEWHOLETIMEGUISE.jpg

>>4068595
Thanks for the offer, but I will have to decline. I don't fuck the mentally disable children with anger issues. Maybe you might want to check /x/? or /b/? more a more compatable mate.

op, everything you say can be shot down with "god/satan/FSM/a wizard did it"

life is too short for this sort of bullcrap.

>>4068607

> I don't fuck the mentally disable children with anger issues

he said fuck you, not him, so youre calling yourself a mentally disabled child with anger issues.

It's not really that big of a deal to believe in God.
It gives life a purpose for a lot of confused people.
And why not be confused? We're just barely out of the ape lineage. We're still a young species, people aren't going to catch up as quickly as the technology.
Just try to be kind to people, no matter what they believe.

..or what if what they believe is utterly evil and corrupt, filled with it's own brand of selfrighteous hatred? That it's influence is so great over these people's minds that they resort to suicide. They kill themselves in order to kill hundreds of other people. At least some do.
A lot of others may just be just passively hateful. Maybe teasing a gay person, because they are sinful and wrong no matter what they do.
Or a black person, because they came from a lineage of murderers in the bible.
Who knows what these people will do. I have never met a Christian who didn't believe insane and illogical beliefs. Maybe I will someday.
Or not.

ITT:
>OP: hey guise how do I argue with religious pplz
>you don't argue with them they are retarded you are just as bad as them for arguing just walk away
>religious fucktard comes
>everybody argues

>>4068641
This is an anonymous board, how do you know the same people arguing were the same people giving the OP advice?

hello /sci/
this is a momentous occasion for me because this is my first trip to /sci/
also I'm a Christfag.
I love learning about physics, the universe and I have many Athiest friends so I understand where you people are coming from. Now I didn't really have a problem with this thread until people just started insulting Christfags without giving any valid points. That being said, no you can't use logic with religious people being that religious bases itself on FAITH which I'm sorry that many of you lack. But whatever everyone has their shit.

I don't have any problem believing God created the universe 13.7 billion years ago and eventually created the Earth and living things. I also do not have a problem believing that God created something that after tweaking and adapting (evolution) it became a human. He's God, He can do whatever the fuck he wants however the fuck he wants. Now if anyone has anything to respond to post with, please feel free, unless you're the dumbass Anon up there that can't think of anything but insults to throw

>>4068651
gtfo

>>4068660
cant read can ya?

>>4068651

how can you be a christfag if you dont believe some of the stuff in the bible, i mean, if you think that some of the stuff in the bible is bullshit, then why wouldnt you think that people claiming jesus performed supernatural miracles, is bullshit as well?

>>4068651
I am god. You should stop posting here. These atheists are an abomination before the lord.

>>4068651

you can't be a christfag and a real scientist. Engineer detected...

>>4068685

>>4068541

>Oh wow string theory just solves everything, and I know that and it's just perfect, and I could go on!

You could go on praising string theory? So could any idiot. I don't believe for a second, that you understand string theory. Especially because of how much of an idiot you have come of as, in your previous posts.

>>4068671
I do believe in the Bible, I never said anything in the Bible was bullshit, It's just some things are open to interpretation and until someone invents a time-machine, we can never know for sure if it was actually made in seven days, or if the "one day is as a thousand years" part is literal. Like I said before it's based off faith.

Everything is just to beautifully designed to be completely random. If you study any exact science deep enough, you'll see that heaven is already here.

>>4068706

Yea, like quantum mechanics.

>Oh the particle is in this box, it doesn't have enough energy to escape, so it will remain in the b- what the hell, it escaped, but how could it just go right through the side of the box?!?! WHAT THE HELL!!

It all makes so much sense.

Study nature and tell me it is beautiful. animals that eat their young, animals that eat other animals, animals born defective, starvation if they don't kill other animals, Diseases that cause pain and suffering and eventually death. Beautiful system that, heaven is already here.

>>4068706
Glass half full
>>4068724
Glass half empty

>>4068724

Don't forget: Horrible painful parasites, that slowly makes the life of the host more and more painful and unbearable, until it kills it. And that is it's only purpose (at least the only things it's doing).

>>4068728

There are a lot more horrible things happening in nature, than there are beautiful things.

Atheism vs Christianity: Where does the evidence point?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4zgfoKZgmE

I was surprised to see atheism lose this debate.

>>4068724
That is a meager fraction of a fraction of reality.

Really it's just a few different types of particles, floating around in this manifold, governed by a few (really just a few) rules. It is elegant. So elegant, there is no need for a creator. It's unnecessary and silly.

>>4068728
Any "all loving" god would have made it glass completely full regardless, that is the point. Good and bad are 50/50, exactly what you would expect from RANDOM HAPPENSTANCE.Accept there is no one at the controls, and not only do you appreciate the good things more, but you don't feel the need to explain why it isn't perfect.

>>4068222
>However, I can never debate a Creationist. I just don't fucking know why.

One cannot argue rationally with an irrational person.

>>4068740
There is no such thing as "good" and "bad", and it's incredibly arrogant and silly to insist the laws that govern the universe are based on what happens to the carbon reactions that the sun pulls out of the atmosphere/dirt here on Earth.

>>4068740
>Good and bad are 50/50

Nope. There is alot more "bad" the good.
Maybe a "satan like being" exists, but not change god exists.

>>4068651
>christfag

Let the laughing begin

>>4068749
Nice overly reductionist viewpoint there. Good and evil aren't physical laws, they are concepts pertaining to conscious beings

>there is no music, it is arrogant to think that arrangement of sound vibrations can have meaning
>there is no writing, it is arbitrary to think that color variation on surfaces has any bearing on recorded ideas.

>>4068740
theres really no arguement I can give that isnt based on faith so I'm sorry
>>4068746
you're irrational to them it's all a matter of perspective and opinion.

>>4068751
if a Satan like being exists, it is because god made him, gave him power to do evil, refused to stop him when he caused evil, and refused to fix evil once it was caused. No excuse for a satan like being to exist under an all powerful all loving creator of everything.

>>4068755
When you're talking about the entire universe, in the whole of time: yes. It is arrogant to think whatever flavor of the week (we could even say flavor of the millennium) artist's music has any meaning whatsoever in the big picture.

>>4068756
>you're irrational to them it's all a matter of perspective and opinion.

Yep. I'll continue to use my definitions that those who use the scientific method = sane. Those who don't - deluded.

>>4068222
The world has:

1) People that Rape and murder children, and never get caught

2) Slaves

3) Children born with horrible diseases, who live only to experience complete pain

If god did exist, he is a mean terrible fucker who laughs at the misery of others and doesnt give a fuck about you.

\thread

>>4068766
But raping children is hot.

>>4068756
Faith: The word people use when they have run out of logical ways to defend themselves. The opposite of rationality. ie "i doesn't make sense, you are irrefutable on every point, but i have a magic word that means it doesn't have to make sense"

Protip: The word faith is the point where a christian has admitted there is no further point in arguing, because their ears are plugged and they have run out of bullshit to make their views make sense. This is where you stop arguing because the conversation is over.

>>4068760
LMFAO

If a "satan like being exists", and it was proven that he exists. THAT IS ALL IT FUCKING PROVES. It doesn't prove that a "good god" must also exist...LMFAO. How the fuck are you drawing that shitty conclusion? There is no link between the two. You are litterally just making up bullshit to please you fucking world view.

You need to grow the fuck up. god doesn't fucking exist.

\thread

>>4068764

It matters in the small picture, just like morality. Good and evil exist in the world and matter to those they happen to. No one said the universe cares that nature is cruel, but to throw away the entire concept of good and evil as pointless is stupid.

>>4068768
Hottest thing ever:

Raping a slave child who is excrutating pain because he was born a horrible disease. Then murdering him.

WHERE THE FUCK IS YOUR GOD NOW BITCH?

This thread is so gay.

>>4068776
You're right. But the point remains that good and evil are things we use to keep us nice to each other, because we're all in this together, and we need each other. In reality, it seems like our whole galaxy plays a minuscule role in the universe, and it's silly to say the evidence for or against a god is in the morality of the beings on this single planet.

>>4068222
congrats youre an idiot. never come her again

>>4068775
How someone as stupid as you can operate a computer is beyond me.

>>4068760
>No excuse for a satan like being to exist under an all powerful all loving creator of everything.
>under an all powerful all loving creator of everything.
>clearly defined clause of argument that evil created by god means god can not be good
>proof that god and devil can not simultaneously exist given the christian idea of their relationship.
>arguing on the side of atheism.
>point is completely missed by a faggot with a hardon for bashing Christians

Go kill yourself in a fire. You give Athiesm a bad name.

>>4068769
not all of them are as close minded as you make them out to be, you just get pissed cuz you don't succeed in converting them, so you insult them. Faith is what holds Christianity together, and to them (and me) it makes perfect sense. As far as I'm concerned you're the irrational person who can't stand when he fails at something so he takes it out on something he doesn't understand.
>Protip: The word faith is the point where a christian has admitted there is no further point in arguing, because their ears are plugged and they have run out of bullshit to make their views make sense. This is where you stop arguing because the conversation is over.
good job buddy that's why I said what I said, I seriously can't tell if you're trolling or just really stupid

>concept of good an evil is needed

Nope. Why do humans need such fucking retarded dichotomies? The whole "good" and "evil" thing was invented by scared cavemen, and has no place in the modern world.

"Good and evil" is pretty much meaningless in modern society and life, and can be replaced by the more modern notion of "right" and "wrong". Unlike "good and evil" which invokes fairytales and magic, "right and wrong" invokes social norms and customs (THINGS THAT ACTUALLY FUCKING EXIST).

>>4068794
How can faith make sense to you? it is the opposite of sense. Every time anyone has ever used faith it is as an excuse

why are there dinosaurs? I don't know, but i have faith that the earth is 6000 years old
Why is there evil in the world? i don't know, but i have faith god has his reasons
Why does the bible contradict itself? I don't know, but i have faith that god intended it to be good
Why is there no evidence god exists? I don't know, but i have faith he is there.

It is literally a word that means "it doesn't make sense, but i think it to be true when everything says it is not"

>>4068803
You see I have faith that you just don't understand the feelings I have about the matter. Therefore you are

>lost/more confused than I am
>angry at GOD
>unable to deal with losing an argument
>below my level, essentially

Pick one.

why are you trying to convince them that stuff wasn't created? our universe came from somewhere. they just need to be enlightened to the idea that their creator created the universe that we are exploring now through science WITH technology

>>4068222

just keep asking them what they mean by "god" eventually they'll confuse themselves and realize they dunno wtf is going on

that's when you put your sunglasses on, turn 360 degrees, and walk away

>>4068811
Do you have some definition of faith that is different than any christian i have ever met? If so, than yes, i am lost confused

One can not be angry at someone he does not believe to exist. So not number two.

I have no problems losing an argument, and assuming that is reason a person refuses to give up their end of a discussion is bad form.

As for below your level, you put your faith in a fairytale made up by people who wandered the wilderness and understood nothing about the world around them besides where to herd their goats. I Make decisions based on evidence, What makes logical sense, what is rational, and i allow my view to be changed when new evidence arrives because i don't have dogma. Lets look at that objectively and see where we both lie on the "above/below" scale.

>>4068827
>not sure if he got that I'm on his side here

>>4068794
>Faith is what holds Christianity together, and to them (and me) it makes perfect sense.
Nope. You're just stupid. Believing empirical claims apart from evidence makes you wrong and stupid. I do not respect your stupid unfounded beliefs.

>>4068857
fucking this.

>>4068803
not all Christians believe in the 6000 as beings literal
some see it as when man started recording shit and started organizing
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100415212523AA8AC86
thats another point of view stated from Genesis

now onto your question, faith makes sense to me because I have it. When you can disprove God with any shadow of a doubt my faith will leave, (i will concede that there are some fanatics that still won't). Like I said, faith seems stupid if you dont have it. Which where you're coming from

>>4068819
i just read this...
why would you turn 360?
i would think you'd turn 180 and walk away
if you do a 360 you end up in the same direction

After reading this thread why would I want to debate with you?

Last night a poster named Zaden was on. >>4068435 This poster makes a calm, direct post, from a Christian stand point, with three questions that only one poster answered one of >>4068464. Zaden threw in a little joke post, then was pounced on.

Three posts, >>4068457 >>4068467 >>4068480, insulting his intelligence level and ability to learn before he responded with >>4068486 that included statements that show he is not in compliance with Christian fundamentalism or the Catholic church. Yet the attacks continued. >>4068503 >>4068520

When responding to >>4068503, about Lex Parsimoniae, not Lex Parsimony (know your Latin if you're taking the intellectual high ground), Zaden made a great point about black holes and the Hologram Principle in post >>4068520. Yet he was further attacked in posts >>4068525 and >>4068526 regarding what he really knows.

Here comes the a changing point with an Anon posting in >>4068533 that Zaden said he believes in magic and the assumption is made he is a kid. He NEVER said he believes in magic or that he is a kid. Yet you take that fake quote and run with it. Also, you fail to see his method of writing as college level in structure, but you take the "kid" comment and keep going with it insulting his age.

In post >>4068527 he does make a post trying to show you that you level headed debaters have thrown insult after insult at him, it's ignored.

His next post, >>4068541, responds to a question about string theory, but it's obvious that he's realized no matter what he says your attacks will continue. At this point I don't know why he stayed but he did.

In post >>4068550 in response to Zaden's post >>4068222, he's called a brainwashed 12 year old. When the hell has any 12 year old known about Occam's Razor, String Theory, Dark Matter, and had college level writing skills, while still being a retard?

In post, >>4068559, a response to Zaden's post >>4068541, nothing is there about his idea regarding string theory and dark matter, instead an insult. There's also a post that just says "WHOOOSH" that's prolly an insult too since it's a reply to >>4068541.

In response to being called a 12 yr old, he posts his age. Then in >>4068566 he gets bullshit called on his age, the belief he said he believes in magic is perpetuated, and his brain fuctionalty is questioned.

While I feel he was holding up a mirror, you all saw a tantrum. I read no tantrum, I saw a poster trying to keep his cool with attacks from all sides, trying to show you how you were really behaving.

And the coup de grace, even after he left the insults kept flying. There was a grand total of 20 attacks on Zaden from the moment he posted until you stopped talking about him. He has his intelligence level insulted, his parents' intelligence level insulted, his age insulted, his mental health status insulted, his faith insulted, his writing method insulted, and was insulted with a fake quote. Worst he did was try and hold up a mirror and call you insufferable bastards.

>>4069248
LMFAO

Nice, way to sum shit up.
Yes, we all agree. Zaden is a faggot.

\thread

>>4069247
>>4069248
I didn't read the thread and I didn't read your text, but I can tell for sure that these two posts are a master piece of asperger autism

>>4068874
>faith makes sense

Believing shit without requiring any sort of facts, evidence, proof, history, science, or even basic reasoing, makes "sense" to you?

YOU ARE FUCKING RETARDED. You are the cancer of /sci/, leave and never come back.

The point I was making was that why would anyone want to debate anything with people who treat people with different points of view as shit?

>>4069248
>Butt hurt christfag is butthurt

With all the priests, I would think you would be used to a hurt ass-hole already?

>>4069247
>>4069248
Look. I wasn't attacking him per se. I was attacking his beliefs. Empirical beliefs without a evidence foundation is stupid. There is no nice way to put that. That is the argument in total, sadly. Doesn't matter what the belief is. It's stupid.

>>4069248
>>4069247

He believes in magic, and that is all a scientist needs to hear. There is no justification, so why attempt a rational debate with someone spouting irrational things?

>>4069272
If your point of view is shit, THEN IT IS SHIT, and expect people to call you out for BEING A FUCKING RETARD.

THIS IS /SCI/!
If you want validation for believing in fantasy, take your ass to fucking /x/->

>>4069272
There's not much to debate. The debate is that he's wrong. It's axiomatic.

Moreover, he likely holds such a stupid opinion because no one has ever really challenged it, and he's never really considered it. I mean, there are some /really/ stupid people, like Kurt Wise,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Wise
but I hope that most people aren't quite that stupid and will turn from the abyss of idiocy when confronted with it.

>>4069279

Well you could of fooled me. Every attack launched on him was a personal one. The attacks weren't attacking his ideas. He tried to show you that he wasn't a blind Bible stomper, but all you saw was Christian<=>Science Denier.

>>4069317
Look, you have this idea that not literal christian is somehow better than a literal christian.

I actually agree.

However, that doesn't change the fact that he has completely retarded beliefs. You keep bringing up the "not fundamentalist" angle. That really doesn't matter for the purposes of this conversation. If he has factual beliefs without evidence, then colloquially he's an idiot. More strictly he holds stupid views for stupid reasons.

>>4069317
Religion is despicable and should be treated with contempt and ridicule. It is the bane of society, utterly ridiculous yet disgustingly popular. Expect any other response is an insult to our dignity and all intellect.

>>4069286
Well said.

>>4069317
Religion is despicable and should be treated with contempt and ridicule. It is the bane of society, utterly ridiculous yet disgustingly popular. Expecting any other response is an insult to our dignity and all intellect.

>>4069317
Guys ideas are so obviouly retarded that /sci/ doesn't even both debating him. Instead /sci/ just calls him a fucking retard for like 2 hrs.

What did you expect? Why would anyone debate with a retard?

I guess decency and civility are lost on you. Your views on religious people make you as bigoted and disgusting as racists and gaybashers. How is the way you treat the religious any different?

>>4069371
>I guess decency and civility are lost on you.
This is 4chan. This is surprisingly civil for 4chan. You must be new here.

>Your views on religious people make you as bigoted and disgusting as racists and gaybashers. How is the way you treat the religious any different?
Race is not something you can choose when you're born. Also, being of a particular race doesn't make you evil or an idiot. Choosing to believe in factual claims without evidence is voluntary, and idiotic.

>>4069371
If something is fucking retarded, it will be treated as such. You would have no problem with bashing holocaust deniers; this is no different.

>>4069378
Yes I am fairly new here, I come from boards where such personal attacks and disrespect would result in a IP ban.

Also, voluntary or involuntary in what makes a person them, I just feel that certain levels of respect should be given, regardless of what I believe their views are to me. Even if I feel that someone has ideas that are beyond out in left field you give them respect as you tear their beliefs down with cold hard facts.

I believe in white supremacy, the moon landing hoax, Reptilians, and a causal relationship between vaccines and autism.

Please treat me with respect.

>>4069413
Dude. 4chan.

>I just feel that certain levels of respect should be given
Nope. People who think that rape is ok -> ridiculed. People who believe the Earth is flat -> ridiculed. People who believe in magical sky fairies, or any other kind of make believe shit -> ridiculed.

Enjoy your stay.

>>4069390
True, denying an evil act is evil in itself so you are correct I would call them out for it. But that's not a religion. One of the principles this country was founded on was freedom to practice religion without fear of persecution and you persecuted the hell out of Zaden.

>>4069413
>>4069420
>>4069425
To be clear, if this was one of my good friends, then I would have too much respect to feign respect for his stupid ideas. I would call those ideas stupid, to his face, and explain my reasons, as I have done so in this thread.

>>4069429
>One of the principles this country was founded on
You mean Internetland?

>>4069429
You missed the other memo. It's right there in the First Amendment, right next to freedom of religion. It's called freedom of speech. The basic idea is that by throwing together a bunch of competing alternative ideas into a pot of public debate, only the best get out. You do not get a "get out of jail free card".

Also, 4chan is a private website.

Also, fuck you.

>>4069429
Wow. Close-minded dumb American much. Just shut up, for your own sake.

>>4069416
I will treat you with respect and a certain level of dignity, while I tear you belief system apart with cold hard facts. Whether or not you listen and let those facts adjust your thinking is of course entirely up to you.

>>4069416
No problem. 4chan is all about "respect".

Let me kinly direct you to our "respect" boards
<-/b/
/x/->

>>4069429
You know, this is the internet, and 4chan is hosted by servers outside of the USA. Contrary to popular myth, the entire world is /not/ the USA.

>>4069429
>this country

Wow...just....wow....

ARe you Zaden btw? Cause you sound and act as retarded as he did.

>>4069429
That comment made me fucking ashamed to be american. I think it might also have given me cancer, and caused a mass amount of miscarriages.

EVEN IN AMERICA, WE DONT TOLERATE YOUR FUCKING BULLSHIT.

Zaden was fucking stupid, and you are fucking stupid. You don't get credit or respect for retarded beliefs, YOU GET LAUGHED AT.

Please go fucking kill yourself....NOW!