/sci/ - Science & Math

bump for self interest.

They don't have orgasms.

>>4056188

...what's the point of being a hot girl if you can't cum?

>>4056188
then whats the point of all the mutilation?
are they mentally ill?

>>4056203
yes

>>4056201
see
>>4056203

its because they feel that they should have been a girl, i dont know why they cant just dress like a trap and be gay, instead they mutilate their penises so that they have a hole to put things in.

>>4056209

>2011
>Not wearing a halter top, denim cut-offs, shaving your legs and hiding objects in your foreskin.
But yeah, seriously.

All the trans I've met and or became friends with were pure apeshit crazy. Not "Well, that bitch is crazy" but "HOLY FUCKING GOATSHIT I SHOULD NOT SPEAK TO THIS PERSON" crazy.

>>4056209

I'm all for letting people be who they want to be but really, in a healthy society, someone who wants to mutilate themselves should be given therapy, not encouragement. So you want to be a girl? Too bad, you're a man. Yeah, shit sucks: I don't get to have my million dollars and a fridge with a padlock, either.

>>4056220

I can put a padlock on your fridge for you. Can't help you with the million dollars, though.

>>4056228

Well, I can cut your cock off and put you in a dress, but a woman you will never be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x81F28kPXuo

well this is a bummer.
So would it ever be possible to keep my penis and have multiple orgasms?

>>4056236

I don't think I would like it. I will pass on your offer.

when girls mutilate them selves to become men, do they still have multiple orgasms?

>>4056256

Fair enough.


...can I still have that padlock?

>>4056209
>i dont know why they cant just dress like a trap and be gay, instead they mutilate their penises so that they have a hole to put things in.

I'm under the impression their modified genitals aren't actually supposed to be functional. Transgendered persons sacrifice their ability to receive sexual pleasure in order to have the anatomy that most accurately reflects their neurological gender.

So that should give you some idea of how painful it is for a transgendered person to live in the wrong body. It is literally <span class="math">so~distressing[/spoiler] that they will <span class="math">willingly~cut~off~their~pleasure~organs~and~accept~plastic~substitutes[/spoiler] if it means not having to see their penis anymore.

>>4056261

Why yes, yes you can!

>>4056258

Multiple orgasms are actually pretty rare, many women don't get orgasms of any kind. Also, unlikely: f-t-m transsexuals develop male-type brains and sexual performance.

>>4056278
>Also, unlikely: f-t-m transsexuals develop male-type brains and sexual performance.

They... already have male-type brains, dude. That's... kind of what makes them transgendered.

>>4056273

Many mental disorders and delusions are extremely distressing to their sufferers. As a rule, we tend to try to cure or at least treat such conditions, but in the case of transexuals, we instead encourage them to the point of risking their lives and sacrificing any prospect of a normal life with completely unnecessary surgery. The correct response to "I should be a girl" is therapy, not surgery.

>>4056220
>I don't get to have my million dollars and a fridge with a padlock, either

If you earned a million dollars, you have every right to buy a fridge and a lock with it and store the remainder of your hoard in chilly comfort.

You could also use the money for gender realignment surgery. Nothing wrong with using your hard earned money as you see fit.

My tolerance for this stops when people expect taxpayers to fund these operations.

>>4056289
>Many mental disorders and delusions are extremely distressing to their sufferers. As a rule, we tend to try to cure or at least treat such conditions
>The correct response to "I should be a girl" is therapy, not surgery.

And what's the correct response to "I don't want to not want to be a girl"?

>>4056285

Not true.

>"The present data do not support the notion that brains of male-to-female transexuals are feminized"
>"The present study does not support the dogma that male-to-female transexuals have atypical sex dimorphism in the brain".

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21467211

>>4056301
>Not true.

That doesn't necessarily mean the problem isn't neurological. A transgendered person may have neurological differences which do not necessarily resemble their desired sex, but which are also substantially different from their birth sex. This would make a MTF transgendered woman different, neurologically, from a cisgendered woman, but also different, neurologically, from a cisgendered man.

>>4056300

More therapy. If someone says "I don't want to go on living", do you pass them a razor blade or suggest a good therapist?

>>4056308

The problem is clearly fucking neurological, all delusions are. The solution is probably going to be chemical (ie, pills), but therapy can work for some people.

>>4056311
>More therapy. If someone says "I don't want to go on living", do you pass them a razor blade or suggest a good therapist?

There are two types of people who say "I don't want to go on living". The type that buys razors, and the type that seeks out therapists.

There are two types of people who say "I want to be a woman, and I feel that I am trapped in a man's body". The type that seeks out surgeons, and the type that seeks out therapists.

There is such a thing as individual autonomy, sir.

>>4056299

My problem with it has nothing to do with who is paying, though I agree offering sex changes on the NHS is some kind of bullshit. I'm more concerned with the fact that most transsexuals come to regret their decision, and the fact that we are ENCOURAGING people with an obvious mental illness not only not to get help, but to act out their delusions in the most destructive way possible.

Gender correction surgery is a million dollar industry... if it was really wrong for the patient then why would the medical profession support it so much.

>>4056330

No, people who claim to be "transsexed" are NOT offered therapy as a means to cure their delusion. In fact, the very notion that they are delusional would be seen as an affront to their civil rights or some such shit.

Look at all the hate those retarded Christian "cure for the gay" programs get: And yet, the people who attend legitimately WANT to not be gay. But because even suggesting that being a gay might not be the best possible thing ever, their "personal autonomy" is somehow irrelevant.

I can only imagine the shitstorm of LGB buttpain should a doctor prescribe therapy for a potential transsexual, or treated it as anything other than a "lifestyle" issue.

>>4056357
>No, people who claim to be "transsexed" are NOT offered therapy as a means to cure their delusion. In fact, the very notion that they are delusional would be seen as an affront to their civil rights or some such shit.

I never said the word "offered". Not even once. That's the word you're using. I said "sought out".

I feel that it would be appropriate to reveal to you now that I myself suffer from gender dysphoria, but have decided against transition. No professional has ever attempted to pressure me against this decision. Therapists give you your options. Patients choose them.

>>4056366
>i went to a good professional, therefore all of them act that way.

o, and
>I myself suffer from gender dysphoria
that was obvious from your first post.

>>4056366

Mentally ill people should be offered therapy. If they refuse therapy and instead press on with irreversible self-mutilation, they should be OBLIGED to receive therapy.
>No professional has ever attempted to pressure me against this decision.

They didn't attempt to pressure you INTO self mutilation? I should fucking hope not!

>Therapists give you your options.
No, advisers give you options, therapists are supposed to give you THERAPY. It sounds like the faggot you saw didn't even recognize your illness AS an illness, part of the very problem I'm talking about.

Incidentally, in case you think me uncaring, I have worked for years in the mental health field and I DO appreciate that what you experience seems completely real and self-evident to you. However, look in a mirror. It is a DELUSION, and no matter how much you've invested your self-image in it, its never too late to realize that.

>>4056378
>>i went to a good professional, therefore all of them act that way.

Then lament the poor quality of therapist ethics, not the choice of hundreds of thousands of transgendered persons to pursue gender reassignment.

It might be the case that significantly fewer transgendered persons would take the surgical option, if their therapists were perfectly ethical. I wouldn't know. I would still feel that that option should be open to them. I would also still feel that one should not have to be a millionaire to take that option, and that it should be covered by your health care ensurance provider.

>>4056334
Because of the millions dollars they get from mutilating their patients?

lobotomy's are the answer to all lifes problems.

Don't like your gender - Lobotomy.

Prone to violence - Lobotomy.

To lazy to work - Lobotomy.

>>4056385
>However, look in a mirror. It is a DELUSION, and no matter how much you've invested your self-image in it, its never too late to realize that.

You sound like the sort of therapist who would try to "cure" a person's homosexuality.

>>4056366
You shouldn't have the option to cut off your dick and make a pretend vagina out of your scrotum. That should not be an option. Well, I guess having it as an option is fine, but it shouldn't be you show up to therapy and they help you decide whether you want to chop off your dick or not, they should at least offer treatment first.

>>4056406

I don't consider homosexuality to be in the class as self-mutilation, but if someone wanted a cure why would I refuse them? But I did actually raise this exact point in my previous replies to you, so your raising it now suggests very strongly you aren't bothering to read what I typed, so I guess this conversation is over.

>>4056400
Wouldn't euthanasia be a cheaper and more desirable solution to these problems?

>>4056399
I'm sure they would make more money from handing out life times worth of therapy and medication... but this does takes a lot more skill than a plastic surgeon would have.

>>4056397
>I would also still feel that one should not have to be a millionaire to take that option, and that it should be covered by your health care ensurance provider.
Oh no no no no NO FUCK NO. YOU DO NOT NEED TO CUT OFF YOUR FUCKING PENIS. FUCK YOU IF YOU WANT TO TRY TO DO THAT AND MAKE MY HEALTH INSURANCE PAY FOR IT. Plastic surgery is on YOU. If you wanna cut off your dick, that's your choice and I have no right to stop you, but don't you fucking DARE pretend you fucking NEED to do that shit AT FUCKING ALL.

>>4056423
its not in a doctors nature to kill.

>>4056412
>You shouldn't have the option to cut off your dick and make a pretend vagina out of your scrotum. That should not be an option.

And I hate to take this route out of the discussion, but you really aren't transgendered, and I guarantee you would feel differently if you were.

>Well, I guess having it as an option is fine, but it shouldn't be you show up to therapy and they help you decide whether you want to chop off your dick or not, they should at least offer treatment first.

You know why you have a problem with this? It's because you place an inordinate amount of importance on your own genitals, from the perspective of a transgendered person. To a transgendered person, their genitals are like a tumor that you have to look at every day when you get in the shower. There's nothing more distressing than being naked and seeing that shit growing out of your crotch.

Why <span class="math">shouldn't[/spoiler] they be allowed to have them removed? They don't need their genitals to live.

>>4056429
If you look back, in the old days many doctors killed more people than they cured.

>>4056424

But this way, they make money on both sides! Charge for the surgery, charge for the lifetime supply of hormones, charge for the painkillers and incontinence treatments most trannies end up needing, then charge for the therapy when said tranny realizes he's been sold a crock and becomes profoundly depressed at the realization that instead of being a mentally ill man, they are now a horribly disfigured metally ill man.

>>4056432

Well yes, but not intentionally.

>>4056426
>FUCK YOU IF YOU WANT TO TRY TO DO THAT AND MAKE MY HEALTH INSURANCE PAY FOR IT.

Why would *your* health insurance pay for *my* surgery? I'm not advocating *socialized* health care, I'm advocating *reformed* health care.

>>4056435
I see, so its the plastic surgery industry to blame.

If we band cosmetic plastic surgery, then these young rich surgeons could re-train for something useful.

>>4056251
I can and here's what I did. Do you know what kegels are? it's when you train the muscle you use when going "OH FUCK SOMEONE'S WATCHING ME PISS IN THIS BUSH I NEED TO STOP AND GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE"
do them

After a while I started flexing when I ejaculated. Doing this for a few weeks I noticed I could just get going after a few seconds. Did this, again for a few weeks, and then I suddenly noticed I didn't have to. Greatest accidental discovery of our time.

>>4056435
>then charge for the therapy when said tranny realizes he's been sold a crock and becomes profoundly depressed at the realization that instead of being a mentally ill man, they are now a horribly disfigured metally ill man.

>implying more than a tiny minority of persons who go through with genitoplasty actually regret it later

>>4056449
>I see, so its the plastic surgery industry to blame.
Well, they have powerful lobbies, at least, in the US they do.

>>4056430
>And I hate to take this route out of the discussion, but you really aren't transgendered, and I guarantee you would feel differently if you were.

And I'm sure that if I believed space aliens had replaced all the teachers at all school, I'd feel differently about school shootings. So what?

>To a transgendered person, their genitals are like a tumor that you have to look at every day when you get in the shower. There's nothing more distressing than being naked and seeing that shit growing out of your crotch.

Yeah, nothing deeply mentally ill about THAT.

>Why shouldnt they be allowed to have them removed? They don't need their genitals to live

Because its completely unnecessary? Did you know, there are people who believe they "should" be paraplegics? And that some of these people seek surgery to have their limbs removed, so they can "be themselves"? Do you think that should be encouraged, or treated as a serious mental illness? Afterall, you don't need legs to live!

>>4056439
I mean, assuming you don't form some sort of collectivized tranny healthcare union it's using regular health insurance companies anyway and forcing the healthcare market to accept your delusional vanities as medical necessity while still refusing to admit the mental disorder behind it is a disorder to begin with.

>>4056458
>Afterall, you don't need legs to live!

You and I both know that's a horrible, horrible analogy. Lacking legs would affect your daily social interaction with people. Lacking genitals would not.

Tell me something. I'm 20 years old now. Somewhere between 5 and 10 years from now, I'm planning on having my testicles removed. Not my whole genitals – just my testicles. I'll be a eunuch. I'll still be able to piss standing up.

Why shouldn't I do this?

>>4056449

No, its identity politics and rampant liberalism that is to blame. This condition is practically a textbook example of a serious delusional disorder, one that causes its sufferers YEARS of misery and angst and which can lead them to take unnecessary surgery and hormone treatments that will take years off of their lives and will more than likely merely cause even MORE anguish and social rejection.

These people desperately need help, but our fucked up modern values teach us its wrong to be judgmental, and that even the most insane delusion ought to be encouraged in the interests of "personal autonomy".It is pathetically ironic that in wishing to stand up and assert that these people are in fact in need of our help, I should be lambasted as an uncaring hater.
>SUCH IS LIFE IN SOVIET LIBERAL DEMOCRACY

>>4056464
>Why shouldn't I do this?
Why do you feel like that's something you have to do? You'll still have a big part of that tumor hanging between your legs, in the end it won't be such a big difference is it?

Xy chromosome and that is never gonna change

>>4056464
>Lacking legs would affect your daily social interaction with people. Lacking genitals would not.

No, but looking like a man in a dress WILL fuck up your social life considerably more than being a cripple. Cripples at least get sympathy, the natural reaction to a transsexual is disgust.

>Why shouldn't I do this?
Why shouldn't you cut off parts of your body? Is that a trick question? Aside from the obvious inability to reproduce (which in your case, I'm willing to mark up as a plus) there are a wealth of health detriments to being an eunuch. Male bodies do not work well without testosterone, so either you'll be injecting it to replace what your gonads would have produced, or you'll die young from clogged arteries and fatty build-ups around your heart.

>>4056484
Who knows? Maybe in a million years scientists will have found a way to change someone's genetic code fully with the physiological changes that go with it. I'm pretty sure some sci-fi authors have had this planned for sooner than that already.

>>4056430
I'm sorry, you're right that my initial response of "wtf no" was knee jerk thats-fucked-up. I'm not sorry for being seriously put off by the issue but I'm sorry for giving into my emotional response of making an insensitive statement. It's not that I have anything against transsexuals, I know it's not your fault and it seems real to you.

But it's not real, you aren't somehow magically meant to be a woman if there is a Y chromosome in every cell in your body, and adequate therapy could certainly make it much easier to cope with if not cure the disorder altogether. My problem is that we aren't allowed to say that. In the interests of being politically correct, we are basically forced by society into humoring a serious psychological delusion. If you wanna fuck a dude in the ass, by all means have fun, if you want to disregard traditional gender roles and crossdress and take estrogen, whatever, if you want to cut your cock off I'm not going to stop you. But don't try to make me play along, either by making me use the wrong pronouns or just by flaming me for observing that transsexuality is nothing more than a serious mental disorder.

>>4056492
what would be the point of rewriting their entire genetic code, it would be cheaper to give them a new body all together

Are transsexuals the next set up form jews. they all like to cut bits off their dicks for no reason.

>>4056498
Sure, it's just the first alternative I pulled out of my ass. Cloning is another.

>>4056506
So do most Americans, but that might be because the Jews have seized control of the US and have been pulling the strings for more than a century.
... or aliens maybe? Could be part of their master plan.

>>4056506

Learn to English, your post makes almost no sense.

Though yes, circumcision is a stupid tradition but I should point out that not only do FAR more Christian Americans than Jews practice it, it is also virtually universal in Muslim countries, too.

there is no reason that one day they'll be able to crown new genitalia from stem cells.

would this new genitalia allow for multiple orgasms?

>>4056525
i feel like you are not aware that circumcision is a mandatory religious ritual for islam and judaism and not for christianity even if most circumcised westerners are american christians.

>>4056534

What part of my post made you think that?

You were wrong, btw.

>>4056430
I don't want to disagree with you because you are basically promoting free choice, but

>you have a problem with that, because you place too much importance on your genitals

Wouldnt someone who goes through a very risky and painful procedure to change their genitals place more importance on them?
Thats not the fault of the transgendered person though. they, as most of society, associate sex with gender too closely.

>>4056542
Well saying "almost universal in Muslim countries" is kind of redundant if you know that muslims are all circumcised anyway. Disregard that then, though, just trying to enlighten the ignorant, take it as a compliment if you didn't need it.

>>4056482
>Why do you feel like that's something you have to do?

It has benefits. You cannot physically go bald from male-pattern hair loss, for example, if you do not have testicles. It's testosterone-triggered. Also, as I mentioned before, I suffer from gender dysphoria. Even thinking about my testicles makes me cringe.

>You'll still have a big part of that tumor hanging between your legs, in the end it won't be such a big difference is it?

I'll be physically incapable of getting an erection. It will be less like a "big tumor" and more like a little strip of skin that can easily be tucked away under tight-fitting underwear.

>>4056491
>No, but looking like a man in a dress WILL fuck up your social life considerably more than being a cripple.

That's what hormone supplements are for, sweety.

>Why shouldn't you cut off parts of your body? Is that a trick question?

Again, your inability to relate comes down, completely, to your being cisgendered. I hate to repeat that, but it really is true.

>Aside from the obvious inability to reproduce (which in your case, I'm willing to mark up as a plus)

I'm asexual. Even if I didn't cut off my balls, any children of mine would be adopted either way.

>Male bodies do not work well without testosterone, so either you'll be injecting it to replace what your gonads would have produced, or you'll die young from clogged arteries and fatty build-ups around your heart.

It goes with your hormone treatments, and doesn't have to include male hormones, just supplements. Also, I have heart disease in the family anyway, so I'll probably be dying of a heart attack someday, no matter what. Unless I have a stroke first, which I get from the other side of the family.

>>4056495
>either by making me use the wrong pronouns

The point of hormone-replacement therapy is to make a person look like the opposite sex, so that you will instinctively refer to them by the preferred pronoun.

>or just by flaming me for observing that transsexuality is nothing more than a serious mental disorder.

I suppose you think of homosexuality as a "disorder" as well.

>>4056551

Not all Muslims are circumcised though. There are many competing schools of Islamic thought, quite apart from those groups who are classified as Muslim despite not really being so (Druzes, Sufis, Ismailis).

But yeah, off topic subject is off topic.

>>4056188

Horseshit. Why do you think they move the nerves from the area near the frenulum to the inside of the new "vagina?"

>>4056589
There's no guarantee that it will work though. Most people who go through such surgery do it for the appearance, still having more or less functional genitals is an extra.

>>4056545
>Wouldnt someone who goes through a very risky and painful procedure to change their genitals place more importance on them?

I meant positive importance, as opposed to negative importance, of course.

>Thats not the fault of the transgendered person though. they, as most of society, associate sex with gender too closely.

I agree; and that is why I've been able to make the decision not to pursue transition.

Most people who meet me catch on pretty quick that I'm a very... girly person. Whether they know I'm transgendered or whether they think I'm just some sort of flamboyant queer is unimportant to me. The fact that they recognize that my gender is not unambiguously male is sufficient.

>>4056574
>>4056578
>The point of hormone-replacement therapy is to make a person look like the opposite sex, so that you will instinctively refer to them by the preferred pronoun.
>That's what hormone supplements are for, sweety.

Except IT DOESN'T WORK. There are very few trannies who look like anything other than a man in a dress. People use the trannies preferred pronoun not because they are fooled, but out of pity.

>>4056621
>Except IT DOESN'T WORK. There are very few trannies who look like anything other than a man in a dress.

The reason why you think this is because the only people you've seen who you've instantly recognized as trannies are the ones for whom it hasn't worked (or who have not been using it). The ones for whom it has worked (the majority of them, in my experience) do not stand out in a crowd as trannies.

>>4056633
>this is what the severely delusional really believe!

>>4056578
>I suppose you think of homosexuality as a "disorder" as well.
No.
Stop using that strawman on everyone who refuses to accept your PC dogma.
Homosexuality is a sexual preference. It's in the same realm as straight anal and bondage. Sure, it has a bigger effect because of how it shapes your relationships, but that doesn't change what it is.
Being a tranny isn't a sexual preference. It's a disorder that affects every bit of who you are. It's not about how you relate to others, it's about how you relate to yourself. And it's destructive, in that it causes serious emotional damage and makes you want to mutilate your body.
I know it doesn't seem like mutilating to you but you are mentally ill, if you're unable to understand the core of what I am trying to say, that transexualism affects your entire life and prevents you from living and behaving normally, you really don't have any rational standing to try to argue from.

Full post op trannys either still look like men, or a woman who had her face rebuilt by a blind plastic surgeon after a acid attack.

>>4056657
>I know it doesn't seem like mutilating to you but you are mentally ill, if you're unable to understand the core of what I am trying to say, that transexualism affects your entire life and prevents you from living and behaving normally, you really don't have any rational standing to try to argue from.

I never argued that gender dysphoria was not something at least akin to mental illness, if not mental illness. The thing is, there is a difference between gender dysphoria and other mental illnesses, like schizophrenia.

You cannot live with schizophrenia. You need medication and treatment for it. Its effects cannot be countered without being suppressed. With gender dysphoria, however, the simple solution is to use a different form of medication; instead of drugs that suppress the illness, use drugs that alter your appearance. Everything else, the clothing, the make-up, different hairstyles, changing your voice – all of that is just how a person presents themself. I'll admit that surgery is a drastic measure; and the reason why I've decided that I wish one day to be castrated is not one entirely grounded in my being transgendered, but also in my being asexual. Both my gender dysphoria and my sexuality combine to create an especially deep loathing for my genitals. Other transgendered persons pursue genitoplasty as a sort of "finishing touch" on their transition. Believe it or not, most transgendered persons don't even pursue it at all; they don't perceive it as being necessary, since hormones, voice-training, and dress-up take care of everything else that people on the street can see of them.

>>4056679
>The thing is, there is a difference between gender dysphoria and other mental illnesses, like schizophrenia.

True. Schizophrenics rarely mutilate themselves.

>You cannot live with schizophrenia. You need medication and treatment for it. Its effects cannot be countered without being suppressed.

Completely wrong. Most Schizos have only intermittent symptoms, and many neither want nor need medication. Severe, chronic cases do need medication (though again, many choose not to and become street people instead) but the the treatment is an attempt to restore some measure of normalcy, it is NOT to make their delusions manifest in reality. A man who thinks he's Napoleon needs anti-psychotics, not a bicorne hat.

a lot of trans people are a lot happier with who they are after the surgery

Sex change operations should be more dangerous and the only treatment for cancer should be huge doses of radiation.
The world needs less people.

>>4056703

And a lot deeply regret it. Your point? Further, mental health does NOT improve in post-op trannies, they remain just as likely to be clinically depressed, socially isolated and prone to suicide. Even as a "treatment" for their psychosis, surgery does NOT help.

>>4056702
I still think these analogies are shit. There really isn't a good analogy for gender dysphoria. It's a unique condition.

Why should a transgendered person take drugs that suppress their condition, when they can take drugs (probably less expensive ones, at that) which allow them to live as they want to live? No sacrifice of identity or autonomy necessary. And since we now live in a society which is, at least mostly, tolerant of such radical differences of sexual identity, I guess I just don't see the problem.

>>4056708

You have a one in four thousand chance of dying every time you have surgery. That's already pretty risky for a completely unnecessary mutilation.

>>4056679
Let's see. So a lot of schizophrenic people haven't been clinically diagnosed with a disorder and are aware that something is wrong with them but would vehemently argue against getting treatment or maybe even being labeled as mentally ill.

Denial, or rather simple lack of self-awareness is probably the most common symptom of mental disorders in general, so you're probably lost but I'm definitely seeing a resemblance here.

>>4056715
No, you don't see the problem because you're such a mentally disturbed freak you can't even see how god damn deranged you are.

>>4056715
>I still think these analogies are shit. There really isn't a good analogy for gender dysphoria. It's a unique condition.

Except no it isn't. For example: The people who think they are "really" quadruple amputees, or severe anorexics, or really any of a hundred other body dysmorphic disorders.

>Why should a transgendered person take drugs that suppress their condition, when they can take drugs (probably less expensive ones, at that) which allow them to live as they want to live?

Because, once again, IT DOESN'T WORK. The choice is NOT between living happily as a woman or taking pills that reduce you to a zombie, the choice is between getting therapy for a serious dysmorphic disorder or mutilating yourself and living a pitiable life as a freak.

>No sacrifice of identity or autonomy necessary.

Getting treatment for your illness would INCREASE your personal autonomy, as well as maybe giving you more than your supposed gender to form a personal identity around. There is no sacrifice, except of a delusion.

>And since we now live in a society which is, at least mostly, tolerant of such radical differences of sexual identity, I guess I just don't see the problem.

The problem is that people don't seem to care that people like you are suffering and need help. Simply leaving you to your own devices makes THEM feel better, but it does nothing for YOU. The only way your life will improve is by getting help to deal with the malignant tumor in your mind that has convinced you that you are not who you are.

>>4056738

Unsuppressed schizophrenia manifests as dressing and acting like you're Napoleon. If a person looks like Napoleon, and acts like Napoleon, they are probably not Napoleon.

Unsuppressed gender dysphoria manifests as dressing and acting like you're a woman. If a person looks like a woman, and acts like a woman, then they're probably a woman.

Can we please try to hold back on the insults? This is /sci/, not /b/. The tripfag may be crazy, but s/he is still a human being, and one in considerable pain. The condition s/he suffers from is very real, and a source of terrible anguish for those afflicted, I would have thought a board of social retards would know better than to mock someone for something they can't help.

>>4056749
>or mutilating yourself

I thought we weren't talking about surgery anymore? I already dismissed it as the choice of the minority and not necessarily defensible on a general level.

>and living a pitiable life as a freak.

In the eyes of some bigots, sure.

>The only way your life will improve is by getting help to deal with the malignant tumor in your mind that has convinced you that you are not who you are.

Because you, of course, are my therapist, have listened to me describe my feelings for hours on end, and know EXACTLY what will make my life better.

>>4056771
>I thought we weren't talking about surgery anymore? I already dismissed it as the choice of the minority and not necessarily defensible on a general level.

Were you, or were you not, talking about cutting off your balls?

>>and living a pitiable life as a freak.
>In the eyes of some bigots, sure.
I might not give a shit, I'm a pretty tolerant guy, but you're simply living in a fantasy world if you don't think a majority of people consider transsexuals to be freaks.

>>The only way your life will improve is by getting help to deal with the malignant tumor in your mind that has convinced you that you are not who you are.
>Because you, of course, are my therapist, have listened to me describe my feelings for hours on end, and know EXACTLY what will make my life better.

No, because I am familiar with this and similar conditions, and I know what works and what does not work. PROTIP: Surgery or crossdressing plus hormones does NOT work.

>Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity [diseased state] than the general population.
>There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

This is not about trying to deny you your 'rights', or to make you 'conform', or even to deny your own feminity (you can be male and feminine, or vice versa, without convincing yourself that you /really/ are a woman/man). This is about explaining that the options you have are sadly rather stark: Accept that you have a mental illness and seek therapy, or continue down a path of increasingly insane behavior that WILL NOT alleviate the misery you feel, but will merely compound that misery with additional medical problems.

>>4056760
>If a person looks like a woman, and acts like a woman, then they're probably a woman.

True. Pic related: Its a man.

The number of trannies who can actually 'pass' as a woman is vanishingly small. People may be too polite to tell one to his face that he looks like a man in a dress, but that's what most of them do look like.

I like trannies. The ones I've met were always so happy and nice and gave me cigarrettes.

>>4056796
>Were you, or were you not, talking about cutting off your balls?

Yes, and I explained why my circumstances were different from those of other transgendered persons.

Also, I might point out that castration is much less invasive and strange than full-on genitoplasty. Castration involves a total of four incisions. Genitoplasty is much more complex and risky.

>PROTIP: Surgery or crossdressing plus hormones does NOT work.

Studies say otherwise. People who begin transition feel better than they did before.

Surgery, on the other hand, rarely makes people feel better than they already did on hormones. Which is, again, one of the reasons I am not eager to turn this into a debate about surgery.

Also, there are thousands of people every year who commit suicide and don't leave a note. I cannot help but suspect that a large minority of them are transgendered persons who lack either the money or the courage to go through with transition.

>>4056814
>The number of trannies who can actually 'pass' as a woman is vanishingly small.

The number of trannies is vanishingly small.
I know plenty, and most of them are convincing.

>>4056826
why do tranies always smoke sigarets? you would think they dont whant their voices to get even more manlike.

>>4056847
>Studies say otherwise.

Hmm, which shall I go with: The studies I cited, or the ones you didn't cite?

>>4056855
>Hmm, which shall I go with: The studies I cited, or the ones you didn't cite?

You cited studies?
The only studies I remember being cited in this thread were simply showing that transgendered persons' brains do not exhibit the physiology of the brains of the opposite sex.

>>4056868

Ok, you're clearly a troll. Filtered.

>>4056873
>Ok, you're clearly a troll. Filtered.

:?
I are confuse.

Oh well. I need to go to the store anyway.

The sheer volume of misunderstanding and lack of actual knowledge here pretty much exceeds that of an anti-transgender christian college. This is pretty much absurd, though I expected it of /sci/.

I'm really not going to waste any time arguing here, but I suggest you actually look up what people do to transition between genders before you start a debate about it. If you understood even remotely the process thereof, it might make a lot more sense, and seem a lot more ethical.

Gigantic spoiler: Not every transgender person opts in for SRS. It is not a one-step process, that is simply the only step that is not reversible. If somebody goes into therapy(which is, by the way, strongly recommended or required for someone going through transition or not) they can either opt in for antidepressants and emotional counseling, or opt to begin hormone replacement therapy for the opposite gender. The curious thing? For many, body dysphoria begins to fade with hormones, and not only, but just the *presence* of hormones causes a euphoria, and sense of "being in the right body". Before any perceptible changes begin. This is part of the argument that transgendered people are neurologically different.

After two straight years on hormone replacement therapy, SRS becomes an option. An *option*, to be chosen through dialogue through the individual and their counselor.

Wow, guys. I mean, jesus. It's not *that* bad a system.

>>4057347
>It's not *that* bad a system.
just because its not *that* bad doesn't make it a good system