/sci/ - Science & Math

Solar panels that people drive on are going to be a lot more expansive, difficult to repair, and inefficient than regular ones. America has no shortage of space, there's no need to cram solar panels into roads when you've got most of Arizona to throw solar panels down on.

if they can get energy and transfer it to the cars...

>>3921741
cement/ash fault requires oil. We won't have oil to spare in 50 years solar roads would be great.

>>3921747
that's one idea.

>>3921741
>most of Arizona
>Implying we couldn't realistically just level everything in that hell-hole state and replace it with solar panels.
>Nobody would miss Arizona, its shitty universities, the sprawling hellhole that is Phoenix, its racist laws, its corrupt sheriffs, etc.

No. A lot of cities can barely afford to repair roads as it is. How is solar panel roads going to help that? Besides, until cars and trucks become a whole lot lighter, they are just going to degrade too quickly.

>>3921767
they can make special glass harder then cement. Also the roads would pay for them selfs with power output.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=Ep4L18zOEYI

This.

>>3921752
>ash fault
its asphalt

>>3921741
The problem is getting that power in Arizona to places where people actually need it.
(lolcopper)

>>3921794
More like assfault xD

>>3921775
And? That still isn't going to stop trucks from tearing it the fuck up. And there would have to be a significant amount of power generated for the roads to pay for themselves, given that repair costs are going to be much higher than traditional roads.

>>3921803
how would they tear it the fuck up?

Question,
What about friction?
Do you really want to drive on glass with ice?
I don't know much about this shit honestly.

I think they would be good 20+ years from now.

this is like
the most expensive concept i've ever seen

Why not put the solar panels on places where they won't be constantly under pressure and violence?

This is one of those concepts that makes engineers like me jizz their pants, but is actually stupid.

They'll only be viable when asphalt goes through the roof. (lol) I'd love to see some kind of machine that trawls along chewing up asphalt roads and spitting out a slightly photovoltaic, programmable light-emitting road. What they're proposing it just a little bit too expensive.

Driving on wet plastic? nope

>>3921752

>We won't have oil to spare in 50 years

>>3922654
Not for asphalt.

>>3922676

Sources

>>3921796
>invent room temperature superconductor
>solve every problem ever
problem?

>>3922681
If you keep pumping out water out of a swimming pool eventually you're not going to have enough for a spa. Oil is not limitless, and the more scarce it gets, the more expensive it gets, which forces councils and governments to look for alternatives for paving new roads.

WHY WOULDN'T YOU JUST PUT THE FUCKING PANELS ON THE SIDES OF THE ROAD OR ANYWHERE ELSE

WHY ON THE ROAD WHERE THEY ARE SUBJECT TO MASSIVELY INCREASED AMOUNTS OF STRESS?

WHY

>>3922703

No. I want a reliable source stating that there will be no more asphalt production in 50 years, which also suggests that solar roads will be a great alternative.

>>3922705
Because glass could be engineered to make it withstand those loads.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep4L18zOEYI

>>3922705
>stress
>graphene coating

Surely you jest.

seinfeld_george_costanza.jpg

Reflective paint works fine.

>>3922715
>>3922716
>if we use this experimental completley unproven in actual use material it will work!!!!!

still doesn't explain the advantage of HAVING PEOPLE DRIVE OVER YOUR SOLAR PANELS INSTEAD OF JUST PUTTING THEM WHERE PEOPLE DON'T FUCKING DRIVE OVER THEM

>>3922676

Oil sands, all of Antarctica, deep sea mining...

>>3922723
>science
>not doing completely unproven and crazy shit

You're the reason we aren't on mars right now.

>>3922723
It solves the problem of having to build two things instead of one.

PArticularly in places like north dakota or arizona.

..mmmm-moron.

>>3922742
science is about discovery, engineering is what builds crazy shit.

there's no science in these panels

>>3922745
typical pop-scientist who doesn't realize that it will cost far more to combine it then to separate them

>>3922728
>drilling for oil in Antarctica
>thinks oil sands will be able to make asphalt economical enough to continue using everywhere
>DEEPWATER HORIZON

Are you a petroleum engineer by any chance?

>>3922756
So you got us some numbers did you?

>>3922757
>he believes in peak oil
don't you have a wallstreet to occupy

>>3922745

Two for the price of three!

Great idea there, Einstein.

>>3922766
Do you gargle bleach? OIL IS NOT INFINITE.

>>3922757

You still haven't given me a single source on any of the bullshit that's spewing through your fingers and onto your keyboard. Kid, I hope to god that you're a troll.

>>3922773
>never heard of supply and demand

>thinks humans will "run out of oil" in under 5000 years

>>3922757

>Oil everywhere
>Even without oil, concrete pavement is going to be cheaper and better than driving on solar panels
>These fucking retarded threads every single day

Are you in high school, by any chance?

>>3922773

>price goes up
>people use less oil
> equilibrium reached

we're 50 steps ahead of you retards

>entire societies that run on fossil fuels

DO YOU KNOW HOW FUCKING STUPID THAT IS? lol.

>>3922777
>>3922781

The point remains that oil is finite and must be replaced.

Your argument is simply that it will be replaced and nothing beyond that. Mocking the idea that "it will run out" is moot. You are agreeing with them that oil needs to be phased out.

>>3922777
>>3922781

I didn't say we'd run out, I said it will become too expensive to be viable to pave thousands and thousands of kilometers of highways with it.

>>3922793
We'd run out of fuel for fission and fusion too eventually.

>>3922802
Are you by chance a fundamentalist? The sheer idiocy of your post astounds me.

>>3922802
Yeah, the first in tens of thousands of years (Earth only), and the second in hundreds of billions if not trillions...

From a fundamental logical standpoint, peak oil must be real. There is a finite mass on earth, and therefore finite oil, which isn't being produced by Earth at even a fraction of our current consumption.

That being said, we have infinite sunlight, and therefore biofuels could overcome this. Assuming it's the good sugar cane biofuels with 9:1 output-vs-input energy ratios, and not that shit 1.4:1 wheat stuff. But I digress.

I also agree that placing solar panels on roads and subjecting them to undue stress would increase both the initial costs (must be thick enough to withstand truck weight) and possibly upkeep costs. Also you can't run replacement/maintenance on them without closing down the entire road. More idling cars due to road construction -> more wasted energy -> defeats the purpose. Or at least reduces effective efficiency.

>>3922807
Are you an annoying liberal? the sheer lack of the concept of financial impact astounds me. It's as if you think consumption of oil occurs at a fixed rate and is not a pure function of price!

p.s. oil is still CHEAP AS FUCK relative to what things cost, it could go up 5x (like it is in europe) and we'd be fine. people would just be less retarded with gas and alternatives that used less/no oil for other products would be used

>>3922823
It's gonna go to five times more. Then it's going to go up more. And more. And since we have a petrochemical-based society, it's gonna be a rough decade or two.

>>3922836

Goddamn dude. Post some fucking sources or shut your goddamn mouth

>>3922844

>Sources
>High school

The kid's not even old enough to post here. Ignore him.

On the road? too easy to get stolen by niggers, just like with copper wire. Another case of society getting screwed over it's scum. Try again.

>>3922844
>>3922857
I'm convinced you're both braindead. What part of FINITE RESOURCE THAT GETS MORE EXPENSIVE THE LESS THERE IS do you not get? As soon as a viable, cheaper alternative to asphalt springs up as the price of oil rises, it will replace asphalt. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. FUCK.

Damn right I'm mad.

>>3922823
/thread

>>3922873

You're saying it will happen soon. We're saying prove it. You get mad because you're 16.

>>3922857

Inurdaes may be in highschool, but he's uncommonly bright. Don't dismiss him so casually.

>>3922844
You've obviously never seen him outside of a space thread, have you?

>Magic wands, magic wands, everywhere.

>>3922883
I'm saying it will happen in our lifetimes. Also, time progresses.

>>3922873
exactly, except this technology is a piece of shit that won't replace it because its TOO EXPNESIVE TO REPLACE ASPHALT WHICH IS CHEAP AS SHIT

and the market already accounts for external sources, which is why ethanol/biodiesel h as never been cheaper then oil. if it ever became cheaper, the market would adjust

>>3922888
never seen him out of this thread but nothing in here can be passed of as bright. are you referring to his posts on other topics maybe?

>>3922898
>exactly, except this technology is a piece of shit that won't replace it because its TOO EXPNESIVE TO REPLACE ASPHALT WHICH IS CHEAP AS SHIT
AND I AGREED
GODDAMN IT
>>3922531

>>3922890
quaint phrases like "time progresses" do not help you convince anyone

when you give a specific value in regards to another value, you need to show how you got your value. When you say that the particle will be at x = 10m at t = 10s you need to prove that v = 1 m/s

Just make them into sun shades over the roads instead. Derp.

>>3922538
>>3921823
Only two people in this thread have any minutia of common sense.

Semis already slide around on dry asphault, which is gravel stuck together, and 4 wheelers still manage all manner of retarded loss of traction when you add rain/ice/snow to the equation. Going to glass would be like going from 10 grit sandapaper to 9000 grit sandpaper and expecting the friction to not change.

>>3922888

Surely you don't believe asteroid mining will be profitable any time soon.

It'd be much cheaper to get everything we need from the seabed, right?

>>3922916

We can always put gravel on top of the road.

Not sure why we'd build it in the first place, then, but who cares! We'll just post pictures of Sagan and that will make it okay.

>>3922907
Be vague
>WAH WAH NOT SPECIFIC FUCK
Give specific timeline
>HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT ARE YOU FROM THE FUTURE I THINK NOT LOLOL DREAMER YOU CAN'T PREDICT THESE THINGS

Every single time.

>>3922917
At the absolute earliest Asteroid mining will be viable around 2025, but its more realistic to say around 2040ish. I actually prefer undersea mining for the minerals we require, which mad has given an extremely good case for, as cheap minerals from the seabed help accelerate our progress toward the stars.

>>3922900

In general, from what I've seen. And this idea has merit. Although it's more expensive by far than asphalt, laying down more asphalt just gets you more road. Laying down more panels gets you more road and more electricity. We get benefits from it proportional to the cost.

Additionally, consider the potential of using piezoelectric generation to harness the energy caused when cars exert stress on the panels instead of only engineering them to withstand it. That way even when a car is obscuring sunlight that panel is still making power, and the entire system produces power at night as well as during the day. Add magnetic resonance coils to each panel and presto, you can charge your car as you're driving.

It also seems legitimately less labor intensive to remove a damaged, modular panel and replace it than it is to bust up asphalt and concrete. And we already have such a road network. Will we never upgrade it? Is no progress possible?

If it helps, imagine these replacing long stretches of highway instead of all roads everywhere. A self powering recharge strip for EVs would make interstate travel much more feasible.

>>3922921
>solar panels
>gravel on top
>add 80,000lbs
>at 70mph
>several thousand times a day

The more I think about it though the more it makes sense to have a road laying machine that prints the road material onto a concrete substrate as it's laid down. Piezoelectric sheeting, solar panels, peltier junction paneling, all things that can be printed because they're made up of relatively simple layered arrangements of metals.

Laying it down via a 'road printing' vehicle would likely prove more economical than mass manufacturing individual modular panels in factories.

>>3922823
Protip that was my first post in this thread. Nice way to jump to conclusions.

We have enough fissionable material to last for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years. In that time period we will either be dead, back to stone age tech or have perfected fusion or some other energy tech we can scarcely now imagine.

Now as for fusion if we ever run out materials for that it means that the entire universe is dead so really not being able to power our space toasters will be the least of our worries.

So as you can see comparing the dwindling supplies of fossil fuels to the eventual depletion of planetary supplies of fissionable materials much less the universal supply hydrogen is nothing short of idiotic.

>>3922924

>Additionally, consider the potential of using piezoelectric generation to harness the energy caused when cars exert stress on the panels instead of only engineering them to withstand it. That way even when a car is obscuring sunlight that panel is still making power, and the entire system produces power at night as well as during the day. Add magnetic resonance coils to each panel and presto, you can charge your car as you're driving.

...We make power by the cars driving on the road... and the cars are charged by the energy they generate from driving?

Never thought I'd see you propose a perpetual motion machine, Bob.

Why not just build the panels separately? They won't have to be stupidly strong, so it'll be cheaper. The roads don't have to be made of glass, so cars can actually drive on them without veering off course. We can make sure the panels get built only in areas of high insolation to maximise their efficiency, and build the roads where, you know. Roads are needed.

>>3922938
that's no more perpetual motion then you turning on your heat in your care which reuses energy stored in the heat gradiant between you/the inside of the car and the engine

alternatively its no more perpetual motion then the regenerating breaks on a prius.. yeah that's clearer but both are true.

>>3922936
Except that we will also "be dead, back to stone age tech or have perfected fusion or some other energy tech " long, LONG before we run out of oil.

one of those things will happen within 100 years, at the very latest.

>>3922923
hey whoah hey, I was not trying to attack you. I was just saying that if you say that "it is going to happen within our lifetimes" that means in the next 60-70 odd years. To make that kind of statement, we need the rate at which oil is being consumed and how much oil there is. This is the only thing I'm making a point about.

>>3922938

It isn't perpetual motion. I'm baffled as to how you got that impression. If I was insufficiently clear in my meaning I apologize. What this would be is a way to reclaim energy that would normally be lost. That by itself isn't valuable enough to warrant the cost of construction, but laying down strips like these on the interstate specifically to make long distance trips in EVs possible makes all kinds of sense. And as these "charge lanes" were expanded it might make electric long haul trucking possible.

I'm not advocating the full replacement of all roads with solar panels. Nor are the solar panels even the most useful thing we could put in roads (that would be piezoelectric sheeting and magnetic resonance coils).

What I am advocating is that special "charging lanes" be added to interstates which collect energy from passing cars and sunlight, and then transmit it into electric cars making use of these lanes. Energy that would normally go to waste as friction, heat, vibration and so on reclaimed and put to work in a way that's immediately useful to a nation beginning the slow transition from gas vehicles to electric ones.

You seem hostile but also educated, so I implore you to at least mull the idea over a bit. With a specialized road laying vehicle that can put the solar and piezo coatings down as an addition to concrete rather than by themselves as some type of modular panel it seems entirely plausible that this could be done for a sane price and that it would wind up having been worth it.

>>3922935
legit as shit, yo

what kind of energy output are we looking at for piezoelectric materials anyway? i'm only familiar with their use in sensing/filtering/frequency generating applications (quartz crystals/etc)

>>3922968
>theoretical and cool sounding but not practical and a massive PITA to implement as shit, yo
ftfy

>>3923002

>what kind of energy output are we looking at for piezoelectric materials anyway?

Pitiful on a small scale, but it adds up fast. In special situations where you have a lot of weight moving over a large piezoelectric surface area for long durations it can produce useful power:

http://cleantechnica.com/2008/12/04/tokyo-train-station-testing-power-generating-floor/

>The company expects the floors to produce 1,400 kW/sec each day. If the piezoelectric experiment is successful, the train station floors will ultimately be used to power ticket gates and electronic display systems.

Putting piezo someplace that it will be constantly pummeled by cars would be one of the best possible applications for it.

>>3923015
advantage if we can somehow use it as a sensor too, we get real time accurate data of traffic.

Anyone who thinks it is a good idea to take solar panels and stick them on the road is full retard. I'm not saying solar panels in general are bad, just that making them into roads will be more expensive, unnecessary, and cause more problems than sticking them on the roof or making a solar farm.

Tl;dr solar panels for roads is full retard idea, because there are plenty of obviously superior ideas.

>>3923034
>constant tracking of vehicle movement

Well, you just lost popular support of the entire south. Gg.

>>3923036

You're thinking of solar panels as a big ticket item. And in panel form they are. But inexpensive printed solar film, while it wouldn't be a worthwhile addition by itself, could be *combined* with piezoelectric film and magnetic resonance wire, all layered down atop a concrete substrate to create a 'charging lane' for highways that can generate enough power to charge your EV or at least keep the charge level from dropping for long interstate trips. That way, no 30 minutes stops to fast charge every 100 miles. Instead you can get there on one charge and plug in overnight at your destination.

>>3923015
>The company expects the floors to produce 1,400 kW/sec each day
>expects the floors to produce 1,400 kW/sec
>1,400 kW/sec
>Kilowatt per second
wat.

>>3923054

How do they measure power where you're from, bub?

>>3923051
it is more than likely that whatever energy gained by the roads in that situation would be surpassed by the energy lost due to those roads. Because in order for the roads to gain energy, the cars would lose energy, in which case the cars would probably lose more energy than the roads would gain. Much like how it is a bad idea to stick a windmill on a car to gain energy.

>>3923063
a kilowatt is 1000 joules per second, so a kilowatt per second is 1000 joules per second...per second. which makes no sense.

>>3923051
what exactly is magnetic resonance wire here? just wire we can run high frequency current through to create magnetic fields above it which cars can utilize for energy? Or are you referring to LC resonance at the same frequency on both the wires and the cars?

>>3923075

>it is more than likely that whatever energy gained by the roads in that situation would be surpassed by the energy lost due to those roads. Because in order for the roads to gain energy, the cars would lose energy, in which case the cars would probably lose more energy than the roads would gain. Much like how it is a bad idea to stick a windmill on a car to gain energy.

I fully understand what you're saying but I would like to respectfully opine that you're mistaken. The windmill adds drag to the car that was not present before. Piezoelectric roads would be harvesting energy that is already wasted by cars driving on normal roads. It does not impose any additional drag or other type of burden on cars. It's merely harvesting energy that, under normal conditions, is wasted.

>>3923075
except the cars always lose energy anyway, normally that is just lost as heat in the roads as they compress and expand, but piezoelectric would allow you to reclaim that

>>3923077
ITS AN INCREASING AMOUNT OF POWER THE SINGULARITY IS NEAR

>>3922916

Could you just mold the roads to fit grooves in a tire so that when the truck is driving, each tire is basically on little rails. Sure you would need to have standardized tire grooves to go with roads, but between that and putting a grainy texture on the road (of coarse it would not be smooth mirror like glass) would that not add alot of friction? Also does glass transfer heat better than gravel... could you incorporate some type of heating element in the road to save money on ice and sand when there is ice and snow?

hey mad scientist do you work in the field or just a topic you have ideas about? you're one of the few good tripfags/posters just curious what your background is (but it would make sense if you don't want to reveal a lot since this is 4chan)

>>3922889
>that pic
Actually I like the idea of a religion board, althogh it might be better to have a /RP/ board, for Religion/Philosophy. Everyone could make their own threads. I can se it now:
>I didn't see on the front page, so let's have an Islam General thread.
>GODDAMN IT YOU MOTHERFUCKERING MUSLIMS THERE ARE ALREADY FIVE OTHER THREADS FUCKING UP THE BOARD CONVERT OR GTFO!!!1!!

>>3923081
the only way that could is instead of turning to heat, part of the loss due to friction went to electricity. Which means it would really only be a practical source of energy when a car is accelerating. I really don't know much about it, but I'm not convinced it will only transfer energy that would have been lost to heat to electricity. Any sources that give more detail about that?

>>3923095

I do 3d modeling for television, film, ads and games. It wound up being useful after all as I'm providing updated visualizations for the Expeditions website. I've always had an interest in these kinds of things but I only began to believe it was something I knew enough about to become involved in within the past year.

>>3922907
Fucking high schooler. That, or you must be autistic as fuck.

>>3923111
Hey Mad scientist, we need you int his other thread. We're trying to figure out how to popularize the LFTR, and we think we have something workable.

>>3922839

.>>3921752
Cement doesn't require oil, it's just quicklime and water

>>3923112
>asking to back up claims scientifically
>autistic and or immature
>mfw

>>3923137
Not him but while the immature bit is stupid to imply, the autistic is understandable.
To put it in other terms:
>2011
>expecting empirical facts on the internet
>mfw

>>3923134
So the quicklime was mixed with magic? The quicklime and water were trucked into the mixer with magic? The mixer was run on magic?

Well fuck peak oil, we've got magic cement.

>>3923137
see
>>3923144

Another way to see it is:
>seeing 4chan as a way to find groundbreaking scientific thought
>not a medium for hyperactive trolling, dicking around, or a way to think about a hobby

>>3923137
Forgot to add. High schooler does not imply immature, just ignorant. Ignorance hits at immaturity but does not imply it. It is a bit ignorant to expect what I typed above.

>>3923146
Magic? No. Electricity, maybe. Perhaps even biofuels, which I believe were mentioned above.

>>3923137
No, I agree with the guy you responded to, whoever posted >>3922907 has to be severely autistic. I mean have you read it? it reaks of autism.

>>3923158
I didn't know that trucks ran on electricity and biofuels that weren't made using oil.

Should have stuck with magic. It sounds more intelligent.

>>3923181
Currently, they do not. Currently, we still have oil. Fortunately, switching fuel sources does not require magic.

>>3923191
>cement doesn't require oil
You were speaking in present tense.

>>3923201
I'm sorry, you must have thought that was me. It was not.

>>3923206
>implying there is more than one "Anonymous"
Faggotry.

>>3923216
It would make much more sense if this entire board was merely one sad, fat man endlessly trolling himself.

Interesting concept, lets put some number to that!

>Standard per mile cost to add a lane in rural areas = $1.6 million to $3.1 million per lane-mile.
http://www.railstotrails.org/resources/documents/whatwedo/policy/07-29-2008%20Generic%20Response%20t
o%20Cost%20per%20Lane%20Mile%20for%20widening%20and%20new%20construction.pdf

>Around 8 grand for a pallet of Astroenergy 240 watt modules. (22 modules per pallet)
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/bulk-solar-panels-by-the-pallet.html#Astronergy_solar_panel_pallets

Then we do some simple math, (I assumed only 7 panels wide for a two lane road, the center would be for wiring or LED stuff, and 974 panels length-wise per mile) :

2 lane road 1 mile long: 7 panels wide * 974 panels long = 6818 Panels per mile. That equals 310 pallets @~ $8,000 per pallet....

Panel cost per mile: 2.5 million USD! Congratulations, once you add in all the added labor, wiring, substations, monitoring equipment, etc.... You have quadrupled-to-quintupled the cost of our roadway system! Also these are regular panels with no special covering (no guarantee that a special covering would last more than a year anyway with gravel and shit being pounded into them by traffic), so add that cost to this figure to get a more realistic picture...

So the next time you decide to spout off an idea with little to no thought into the reality of it, just don't.

Really cool idea, and the only thing stopping us really is getting the right type of glass to drive on that will protect everything.

>>3923217
It is. MPD.

Combining functions like that only makes already complicated activities even more complicated.