/sci/ - Science & Math

>>3890587

It's not significant life.

>>3890587

Aren't there enough goddamn people on this planet?

Abortion is just a tool used by fucking retarded whores who don't know how to use a god damn condom, or birth control which has a 99% success rate. If they make a mistake and have unprotected sex with a random guy in a parking lot they should have to pay the consequences, it's a learning experience. I'm sure she'll think twice before she does anything like that ever again. People have to make mistakes in order to learn from them, that's why these kids these days are such fucking lazy phaggots, everything has an auto-fix.

BRB MONTHLY VISIT TO THE ABORTION CLINIC

>>3890590
That must be a cool position you're in that you can label life as significant vs insignificant. I'm sure the majority of the world you're insignificant too, does that mean it's ok to kill you? I mean it really wouldn't change the world much, so what's the problem?

>implying life is actually of significant importance and a disposable resource
Fucking humanists.

>>3890599
to the*

saged, reported, hidden

>>3890594

>>3890587
Think about it this way; why should that unborn child be born into a world where his own mother and/or father didn't want him, where he'll live a life of pain, abuse and sorrow that will leave him to cause harm or others or himself?

Should it not be better that this beings' story end now rather than to end up with a worse ending?

>>3890608
>Should it not be better that this beings' story end now rather than to end up with a worse ending?

Her/His story of life hasn't even started yet. Like I said, living is superior to not living in almost every case.

>>3890599
no problem here, boss,
. lots of people need be killed to stabilize the population.

>>3890599

Do you get assmolested when you step on a bug? Faggot.

>>3890608
Also, just because the parents didn't want him, doesn't mean he'll have a shitty life. I'm sure the couple has relatives that can help out, and once the baby is actually born the mothers tend to bond with it and become more attached. Of course if you're the last thing you want is a big burden(having a child), but sometimes they just have to suck it up. It doesn't mean the child will be abused or mistreated.

>>3890615
how did you conclude that?

>>3890622
>comparing bugs to humans

Oh wow.

>>3890626
You think that if abortion was made illegal, and all these unwanted children were born, a majority of them would say they wish they were killed at birth?

I hardly think so.

OP, how's living in fairyland treating ya, ha?

>wrong

And there's your problem. You think that concepts such as "wrong" actually exist.

Thats not how the world works sunshine. There is only what people are able to do, and what people are not able to do.

Btw much of the items in your room right now were made by children and slave prison labour, and many of those prisoners were "political dissidents". Many of which probably agree with your naive position.

You eat food made with fruits and vegitables that were secured by death squads.

Do you own a car? Do I need to keep going with examples? I think you get the point.

Enjoy your "highground". Its built upon the backs of thousands of victims whose faces you will never see or ever even consider.
Oh and the land its built on? Yeah thats probably stolen, likely through genocide. I can safely assume that without even knowing where you are from.

You benefit from overt murder, torture and suffering every second of every minute of every day of your life.

Welcome to reality.

>>3890636
If living in fairyland means a place where unborn children aren't murdered, then it's pretty nice here.

>>3890594
and you think forcing them to look after a child they don't want is punishment for them?

sounds more like punishment for the child

Everyone who replied to OP got trolled. You're all fucking gullible noobs.

Anyone who posted in this thread without saging is an idiot.

>>3890638
>Mom, look how edgy and cynical I am! WHY AREN'T YOU LOOKING??

>>3890631
Probably not unless they learned to speak in the time it takes them to starve/freeze to death in a dumpster.

>posts thread on 4chan
>There's really no debating about it
>goes on to debate about it
2/10 for all dem dere replies

>>3890645
No it's a forced maturing of the parents. There are too many 30 year old manchildren/women nowadays.

>>3890649
Ok, so instead of acknowledging that I'm right, you stated an extreme ridiculous example? Ok then.

I almost agree, if not for the fact that if abortion is not made legal people will try to abort fetuses using horrible methods - jumping from high heights, taking really hot baths, coat hangers.

Sometimes the baby survives and is totally fucked for life.

Sage for troll thread regardless.

>>3890647
Its the absolute truth, a very condensed version of it. I did not actually even really begin to properly point out exactly how amoral our civilization is in reality.
What exactly is edgy about the truth?

Btw I am probably older then YOUR mother.

>herrrpa abortion is wrong derp muhammad christ
>implying you even have a say in the matter

>>3890654
>extreme rediculous example

Why not actually go and learn about why abortion was legalized in many countries in the first place...actually research something you decide to open your mouth about?

And I dont mean on wiki either you ignorant lazy fuck.

>>3890670
>rediculous
>calls me ignorant

>>3890677

are you going to respond to my post?>>3890663

WHAT HAVE A FETUS EVER DONE FOR HUMANITY, HA? NOTHING! NOT ONE SINGLE THING. ITS JUST SITTING THERE BEING USELESS, DOING NOTHING AT ALL!! ! ITS NOT EVEN CUTE OR FUNNY.... AND YOU EXPECT ME TO TAKE PITY ON HIM? DONT MAKE ME LAUGH

>>3890587
>children
It's a frelling FOETUS you disingenuous toad.
MAD

An unborn baby is not a tumor to be pulled out. Mass abortion is the enemy of human dignity, human life is very valuable. Take protection instead.

>The moment the woman gets pregnant, and there's life inside her, it's a human being.

nope, you're not a human being until you start to talk and produce coherent idea.

that why i'm promoting legalising abortion to the third year.

>>3890702
loled

>>3890587

While I agree with you morally, when abortion was illegal rich women just went to countries where it was legal and poor women just had it done by cutters. It the one case, no one was saved, in the other many women died due to the fact that the people performing the abortion had no idea what they were doing. Is the child's life worth more then the mother's? If she dies from a botched abortion, the child dies as well.

And what of the fact that many women who get abortions only get them because they don't think they'll be able to support the child? Certainly then many children could be saved by welfare. Or cut them off at the pass and make birth control free, so that children are never conceived in the first place to mothers who don't specifically want them.

And I must wonder, are you against the death penalty? War? Do you care about the children after they're born, and thus want to pay welfare taxes to provide them the best life possible?

>this thread

>>3890587
The shedding of outer skin layers is wrong. There's really no debating about it. The moment your skin cells divide and there's life inside you, it's a human being.
The only reason it's supported is because humans are lazy and don't want to extract the DNA from each cell, repotentiate it, and implant it to carry to term. It's disgusting that we have to pass laws that permit shedding skin flakes, just so these reckless barbarians can go on with their lives like nothing happened. You say that they would raise those offspring poorly and it would cause massive overcrowding? I'm sure your skin flakes would prefer LIVES at all, instead of being killed as abraded tissue.

i'm against abortion and pro killing babies.
children should be raised like 300, where if they don't man the fuck up and start hunting their own food by age 1, they should be kicked into a pit (haven't seen the movie in a while, i'm pretty sure this was what it was about)

>>3890594
Actually their learning price would be dispositoned to the society as a whole, due to the fact that single mom descendants are much more prone to crime. So kicking that baby out is a profit for the whole of society.

http://boysraisedbysinglemums.blogspot.com/2009/01/single-mothers-children-responsible-for.html

>>3890599

pretty much this

once we start devaluing the most innocent of life we devalue all life

and in this case, for what? convenience....

>>3890638

>because shit is/was fucked up, kill babies = okay?

hmm, try again

Nobody questions whether it's a human being, the debate is over what constitutes personhood, and whose rights should take precedence. That of the pregnant woman or that of an unborn fetus.

A pregnant woman is without question a person and has certain rights, among them is the right to decide when and with whom she wishes to sire offspring.

A fetus is not a person. It has no legal standing. It relies solely on the mother for it's survival until it has been born.

I don't see why this is so difficult to understand. To force a woman to carry an unwanted fetus to term and to raise the unwanted baby, is anti-woman.

>The moment the woman gets pregnant, and there's life inside her, it's a human being.
>being

Being:
It refers to a discrete life form that has properties of mind (sentience), which are deemed to constitute a more complex state than simple organisms (i.e. that have only "life functions").

nope.jpg Fetuses do not qualify as beings, only life.

Why should we protect life without mind, especialy at the expense of already existing minds?

>>3890796
Because nonsapient tissue masses aren't human babies, killing nonsapient tissue masses is okay with the owner's consent.

>>3890587

>The moment the woman gets pregnant, and there's life inside her, it's a human being.

Nope. It is not a human being until at least rudimentary higher brain functions develop, which happens months after conception.

I do have a problem with late-term abortion, tough.

>>3890800
>A fetus is not a person. It has no legal standing. It relies solely on the mother for it's survival until it has been born.

See that's where it gets sketchy. Politicians make an arbitrary cutoff point where one day it's just a pile of organic human material and the next day it's a human life and you can't abort it.

>>3890739
>>3890739
>>3890739

fucking lold

>>3890809
There's nothing arbitrary about the point at which it becomes illegal to abort a fetus. The cutoff is determined by the viability of a fetus to survive outside the womb.

>>3890809
It may be arbitrary, but that doesn't mean there can't be a good place for it. The basic quality we want to preserve is sapience, sentience, consciousness, or some other poorly-defined and difficult-to-test quality. What most of us are pretty sure about is that it happens sometime in the two to four years after birth as the result of a gradual progression of increased growth in the brain after birth. So "after birth" seems like a good place to draw the line, being the only part of that process which is not a smooth gradient but an actual line.
And if we later turn out to be wrong on that, we'll /move the fucking line/ because it's not like we have some religious attachment to the sacredness of undifferentiated nonviable cell clumps.

>>3890800

bullshit

how are you going to say it's unwanted when the bitch had sex?

it's about wanting the cake and to eat it too

as for rights, how about a baby who hasn't fucked up at all (the baby is innocent). the mother has created a problem for herself perhaps and she will have to solve it without abdicating her personal, biological, and moral responsibility to her child

>>3890822

Some people want to have it at conception, some at appearance of brainwaves or something, some at external viability and some at birth. Laws around the world vary accordingly, too. It is largely arbitrary.

>>3890836
When it's a baby, I'll consider the baby.
While it's a nonviable nonsentient tissue mass, I'll consider the cancer patient.

Would you say that a new born infant is a person, or not?

>>3890822

No is isn't. Not in any way, shape, or form. In fact, it is only arbitrary.

>>3890841
A newborn infant is a human but not yet a person.
An unborn nine-month fetus is not yet either.

>>3890848
> claim a distinction is arbitrary.
> be given the relevant physical observable criteria used to qualify the distinction.
> claim it's still arbitrary.

>>3890841

Define "person".

>>3890839

ah so it's a tumor; so edgy

whatever helps you justify killing a baby

technical language, insinuation, etc.

this is what happens when responsibility and respect for life becomes inconvenient; thanks, but no thanks, hippies

>>3890839
But see that's a problem. It's akin to the old argument that when does a heap of sand become a "heap"? If you remove a singe grain of sand it's still a heap. If you remove a million grains, one at a time, it will end up as something that is definitely not a heap. So at what point during those millions of grains did it go from a heap to not a heap?

It's the same thing, there's not one singular point where it goes from a mass of cells to a human.

>>3890822
>>3890822

and yet, the law contradicts itself in this regard

if a pregnant woman is killed, the killer will be charged twice

if the woman does it, it's legal

>>3890849
an unborn nine month fetus isn't, but a prematurely born 7 month infant is? Thats a bit bizarre. By jumping the gun lifeform can have more status by simply being in a different locus.

Unborn things aren't finished things. Women should have the right to abort until at least 50% of the unborn thing is out of her vagina.

>>3890860

>respect for life

Life has to posess certain characteristics to be worthy of respect. A bunch of cells does not cut it, not anymore than a vegetable in my garden (which is life, too).

>>3890808

> rudimentary brain functions

And that would be how old exactly?

>>3890804

Needs less retard killing argument.

>>3890800

A person can, at anytime, give up their "rights" to another. This happens in situations like kidnapping, robbery, assault, battery, etc, etc. Anytime a female has consensual sex that results in pregnancy she has decided to forgo her immediate "rights" that are in contention with the "rights" of the other human being.

>>3890590

Stop making arguments for the Breivik murders.

>>3890871


ahh, babies need to earn our respect;

we really are fucked

by the way; babies are the future of mankind; therefore how we treat them has direct implications for ourselves and our own lives

the same cannot be said for vegetables

>>3890856

There is nothing observed for abortions. It goes like this:

> i want an abortion
> okay, come with me

They do not check viability in reference to the fetus.

>>3890876
How you treat vegetables affects how people will develop in the World. More veggies = Better, you asshat.

>>3890863
If you move all the sand, what's left is a heap of 0 grains.
I care about minds, not cells. I wouldn't abort any number of minds. I would abort any number of cells.

>retard teenage nihilists claiming newborns should not be protected

I am pro-choice, but seriously, fuck off. You are an embarassment to pro-choice movement

>>3890880

if this is really what hippies think then you guys are losing hard

shows a complete lack of humanity or common sense

>>3890872

>rudimentary brain functions

>And that would be how old exactly?

Human neocortex begins to organise at around 5th month of pregnancy, so that could be a good limit. I aint no developmental neurologist, tough..

In the same way, death of a person in modern medical law is defined as a brain death, even tough the body could often live on life support longer. It makes sense for the same criterion to be used for the beginning of a person.

If a pregnant woman is murdered are there any additional charges beyond the death of the woman? If there are additional charges for the death of the fetus then there would already be legal precedence for when the court recognizes life.

>>3890886
I'm not a hippy, but I know that vegetables are important.

>>3890883

the mind is developing in utero...

>>3890890

rocks are important too bitch, but there are also priorities and yours seem to be a little mixed up

>>3890884

I second that. I'm in no way arguing a zygote is a full person, but a half born baby isn't human? Really? Stop trying to be edgy, if you heard a doctor killed a baby while it was being born because the mother changed her mind you would be horrified just like the rest of us.

I don't want to meet the kind of person that thinks that is acceptable.

>>3890887

> around 5 months

How very helpful. There has to be an observable time, that is true in every case.

>>3890888

>If a pregnant woman is murdered are there any additional charges beyond the death of the woman?

It varies. In about half of US states, yes. It also depends on the month of pregnancy in question.

when does the heart start developing i wonder?

>>3890906

Month one

From the moment your egg is fertilised, your baby’s genetic blue print is set – from her sex, eye and hair colour to her height. Your body has already started making amniotic fluid to cushion and protect your developing baby. By the end of the first month, your little one’s heartbeat can be detected and she is about the size of a grain of rice.

>>3890898

What do you mean? Biology is not an exact science. Our laws are chock-full of similar fuzzy limits made exact.

>>3890891
If you can demonstrate that an unborn fetus can be aware of itself as an object distinct from its surroundings, I will change my opinion. My current understanding is that theory of mind does not develop until several years after birth.

Bizzare about the double murder charge. she could be driving to the abortion clinic, and get hit by a car, and would get charged with two murders.

I think its a very hard issue concerning when life begins, so why not push the line back as far as is reasonable? if a woman doesnt want the baby, fine. get rid of it when you find out you are pregnant. But if you change your mind at the last minute, guess what. You are too late. You have to give birth to it now, but you don't have to raise it. there are thousands of infertile couples that are begging for children.

>>3890916

What definition of "mind" do you use? Does it include sapience, or self-awareness? Do newborns have minds according to you?

>>3890916
Not the dude you quoted but talk to a pregnant woman who's used a vacuum. The fetus will try and run away from the sound.

A FETUS IS NOT CONSCIOUS YOU STUPID CHRIST FAGS. ITS LIKE A FUCKING TOMATO FFS.

>>3890927

To be fair, so will a dog, and we kill them all the time for convenience reasons.

>>3890916
>>3890916

so by that logic we can kill infants too?

it's just ridiculous

anyway, the heart develops in the first month; i realise this is /sci/ but the heart is good enough for me

>>3890938
The heart is just a piece of flesh. With better technology we could keep a brain alive outside the body without the heart.

>>3890938

>heart

>an arbitrary piece of muscle

Why not an anal sphincter instead? And do people with artificial heart lose their right to life?

>>3890947
According the Christ you shouldn't mess with gods creation.

>>3890938

>heart

Why not brain? Brain is what we are. Everything else is in principle replaceable without causing us to turn into another person.

>>3890923
I wish there were a really good and clear answer. Then I could test four-year-olds and if they meet the criteria continue testing downwards until we reach a point either inside or outside the fetus stages where the test returns conclusively. Instead development is a smooth gradient.
I would argue that my cat has a mind. It can anticipate things I want, predict future actions I may make, and I can do the same to it. I personally would not want to kill my cat, but I don't consider it an abominable horror unto the face of humanity if someone humanely euthanized her. They would be guilty of a property crime and I would get a replacement cat. If they tortured my cat then based on my cat's ability to anticipate and empathize I can assume it suffered, and be morally outraged. The capacity to recognize damage is not the same as to feel pain which is also not the same thing as the capacity to suffer. At what ages do you propose a fetus or baby or child gains mental capacities similar to my cat?

>>3890930
>>3890930
>>3890930


it is conscious

it's not self-conscious

ftfy

>Killing of unborn children is wrong
Then god himself is the greatest of evil by allowing the mass genocide of unborn children through miscarriages.

>>3890956
Well we aren't even that really. We are kind of like software and the brain is the hardware, memories can be lost/forgotten.

>>3890942
>>3890942

just a piece of flesh

you're just a piece of flesh too, fucking idiot

god damn when we got too smart for ourselves, forgot what it meant to be human


"I believe that the horrifying deterioration in the ethical conduct of people today stems from the mechanization and dehumanization of our lives - the disastrous by-product of the scientific and technical mentality. Nostra culpa. Man grows cold faster than the planet he inhabits." einstein

>>3890960
>citation needed

>>3890970
>god damn when we got too smart for ourselves, forgot what it meant to be human
While you would have us believe a human is nothing more than a heart, 2 lungs, and a pulse.

>>3890970
I only use this body because I have to. If I could compile "me" and put it on a computer I would.

>>3890947

>equates heart with ass
>fag

>>3890979
But you talk about the heart as if it is something more then a fleshy pump. A fleshy pump that tends to fail a lot at that.

A human being's life is valuable because of the richness of his experiences he is a recollection of emotions, thoughts ,ideas and actions. An unborn baby therefore has no true value as a human being. That said, abortion could be analogous to animal cruelty which is atrocious and cruel, but is very often a justifiable course of action to put an animal to sleep. Also u mad?

>>3890972

you can substitute conscious for alive, if it suits you; when the heart is beating

but i've found liberals have a harder time understanding simpler concepts

technical language shields the effects/implications to a manageable level

>>3890985
Okay, but I have no moral qualms against killing things simply because they are alive

>>3890956

the heart is fundamental

i know it gratifies your perceived sense of intelligence that the brain is more important but it is simply not the case

Our body's are a relic, a near vessel. All that matters is the memory's/personality profile we have stored in our brain.

>>3890984
that is not the only reason why we value life. we value potential as much as we do experience, otherwise the elderly would be more valuable than children.

>>3890985

> liberals have a harder time understanding simpler concepts
>simpler concepts
>atheism is a religion

>>3890992
We will be able to replace the heart completely within the next 50 years. We won't even be able to grasp the inner workings of neurons within that time.

>>3890992
Huh, so if you had a choice. Either get an artificial heart, or have an artificial brain (one that simply pumps your heart and keeps your lungs breathing), which one would you choose?

>>3890974
>>3890974

not even remotely what i said

>>3890998
>artificial brain

Good luck with that.

>>3890994

That's funny cause last time I checked the potential of a sperm load and an ovum was the exact same as that of an 8 month old fetus.

>>3891001
Okay, I agree a human is much more than a heart, lungs, and a pulse. Which is why I believe abortion is fine, and pulling the plug on the brain dead are morally acceptable choices.

>>3890984
I'm not mad, I'm laying out my own beliefs and the reasoning behind them to others for error- and fact-checking, and looking at opposing viewpoints on the off chance that they provide some reasoning I can examine for merit. If I'm wrong, I want to change my opinion. But you can't convince me with
> derp he thinks bleh, lol
> herp he doesn't automatically value what i say he should
You have to cause me to value something you can show the unborn fetus possesses that other forms of life we routinely kill for convenience does not. Even an insect will run from a particular class of stimulus. This doesn't make the insect's life valuable to me. I still swat flies even if they fly away when I miss.

>>3890988

well, it sounds like you don't value your own life much either

similarly, these are the implications of your attitude

we undermine life we ultimately undermine our own

>>3891009


> non-sequitur

I don't understand this love for children. All you are doing is growing your replacement.

>>3890992

>the heart is fundamental

What do you mean?

>i know it gratifies your perceived sense of intelligence that the brain is more important but it is simply not the case

Why not?

>>3891003
I said its a simple one. All it does is pump the heart and put air in the lungs, a simple program connected to a machine could do this. I never said it could think and learn.

My point is the brain would only keep you alive. And you dodged the question. Probably because you know you are wrong.

>>3890996

elaborate; does not compute

>>3891013
He is saying the heart is just as important as the brain which is sorta correct for now because we can't actually fully replace the heart yet.

>>3890998

moot question

>>3891011
Samefag here, If you actually take the time to learn to read you will see that I argue that there is nothing invaluable about an unborn fetus, and that the value of it's life, at least in my way of seeing things is no different than that of a domestic pet.

>>3891016
Only if I have to connect the dots for you simpletons.

Both a fetus and the brain dead have a heart, 2 lungs and a pulse. I believe to be human is more than just that, it is also about the ability to think and perceive the world and thus wonder about it. Fetus and brain dead have no such ability.

>>3891024
i know because it completely destroys your argument.

>>3891020

i answered it here>>3891024, not there; you were arguing with someone else

rainbow are you gay? just curious

if so, wonder if that has anything to do with your antipathy for human children

i'll probably need to provide a citation for that one too, eh?

>>3891033

moot is neither your heart nor brain. The question allows you to pick one.

>>3891028
I didn't say or imply anything about you. I stated things which are true of me, arguments that would convince me, and arguments that would not. I apologize for not being able to tell which side of the discussion you're on from a
> u mad?
post, but my response was not solely for your benefit anyways. Calm the hell down, or the "pre"dophiles will go even further apeshit.

>>3891031

not at all; i wouldn't replace my brain or my heart with machinery

>>3891035
When someone resorts to emotional insults you know they have lost the argument.

>>3891044
OK so you die.
The question is you have to pick one.

>>3891046

is gay an insult? i thought you liberals thought otherwise...

actually it was a legitimate question; still curious to the answer

>>3891044
Yes ok enjoy that heart attack then.

>>3891035
I am not gay, nor bi.

>>3891046
When someone has these kinds of arguments on 4chan in the first place, you know they have lost the game.

>>3891049

i let nature take it's course; life is eternal; i'm not going to cling on desperately half-man half machine to gratify my ego

likewise i refuse to kill babies because i have respect for natural life

>>3891050
Does it matter? I'm not gay and really don't care if they suck out a million fetuses from teen age sluts. More petroleum for my car.

>>3891040

allows but does not require; the bargain doesn't interest me