/sci/ - Science & Math

Why do i feel as if any progress with the concept of cybernetics would be reserved for the financially wealthy and materialistic, or people "in power" and would serve only to introduce more strife and hatred, and increase the chasm between the monetarily rich and poor?

Is personal computer just a wet dream of many whom are afraid of dying or relinquishing their societal standing?

>>3824255
> DERP DERP DERP

Where do you see ANY transhuman progress in the ranks of the financially wealthy and materialistic? They are just making bigger homes and cars for themselves. They are still dying at the same lifespan as you. They are eating the same food, shitting in the same way, breathing the same air, watching the same movies, reading the same books, etc.

There is ZERO transhuman progress. That's because your wealthy classes are even more sociopathic and psychopathic that the common violent simian.

Fact facts: By the time a billionaire hits age 60, and he knows death is assuredly coming, why is it that he does nothing to invest his billions into anti-senescence and anti-aging? That billionaires are still dying at the same age as a healthy poor person, shows well that Humans are incapable of moving beyond the biological imperatives imposed by their violent simian DNA.

Approach a subject of concern soberly and patiently, there's always more depth to an issue than you're able to recognize upon immediate exposure. Carefully rest your mind on the issue and let it sink in without presupposing things and having it blind your senses.

Then you won't have to post stupid questions and have people tell you why you're buying into sensationalist bullshit.

Nobody's going to "reserve" anything. Of course the wealthy have first dibs on things, but part of the growth of the technology involves affordability and mass marketing. That's how money is made and technology develops.

>>3824298
>violent simian

Oh god it's this guy again. Just go away, will you? You're fucking retarded

>>3824304
first paragraph is one of the most well phrased and spot-on pieces of advice this board has ever seen. grats anon

>>3824255
OP, under current circumstances you would be right to assume that such new technologies would likely first be implemented for the wealthy. And for the first 10 years or so of commercial augmentations much of this will be true. HOWEVER.

The rest of technological progress in other fields has not been at a standstill. You have 15, 20 years of robotics advancements, 3D printing, intelligent computer algorithms, improved mining techniques and so forth which continue crashing the price of having to produce this type of metal or making intricate semiconductors. By 2035 I fully expect something like an eye augmentation that matches/surpasses human vision to cost under $5,000, if not $500. And it will just go down until the sheer amount of awesome shit that has been invented will make traditional capitalism spasm into a superior automated leisure economy where augs are as good as free.

>>3824322
saving it for further use, seems like it's applicable a lot on this board

>>3824255

A combination of 3D printing, 10nm inkjet printing and mechanosynthesis will allow one to quickly print, on demand, whatever augmentation or mechanical prosthesis or micromachine you want, from blueprints and a pot of acetylene.

So, while there won't be an end to scarcity, there's going to be massive shift in everything from R&D to commerce to government. If you look at history, technology empowers the individuals -- There is a huge gap between the rich and the poor, not that it was any better before -- those who want to hold back technology are the ones that are allowing the powers that be to catch up and design new forms of control. But those are just old men, playing at running the world, but the world has left them behind long ago.

We are the future, OP, we have the power to build the machines that will build the machines that will set people free.

>>3824255

Its not just transhumanism. From a global standpoint, everything including things such as sufficient food and water are reserved for those better off, with varrying degrees of affordability. Yet, its still better for rich to have it than nodoby at all, and eventually it will trickle down.

>>3824378
Fuck yes CCM

>>3824304

>implying a history of violence and irrational hatred spawned from differences in prosperity and ideology, creed and race, coupled with a general inflated sense of self-interest and ego centrism, and a general predisposition to fear is sensationalist bullshit.

While i'm not suggesting the aforementioned is at all indicative of what might or might not happen, it can be a potentially weighty consideration...

one might postulate that our technology is being introduced faster than our culture can advance and evolve, currently.

Who knows, though...

>>3824409
The hatred's always there, as is the violence. The companies developing such technologies, though, have loyalties elsewhere. In order to invest in the research and development of these technologies, they have to have promise of payoff-- once the development has lowered the cost of productions, they can afford to expand to the lower echelons for cheaper and cheaper. If it has applications somewhere, and there's a demand for it, there's profit to be made there and that's a vital resource toward the progression of said technologies.

>>3824255
>Why do i feel as if any progress with the concept of transhuman evolution would be reserved for the financially wealthy
Because complex machines are expensive and medicine is expensive and cybernetics is the marriage of the two.

>and would serve only to introduce more strife and hatred,
Turning financial class disparities into something as apparent as cybernetic augmentation would likely make it easier for the lower classes to get behind the one proletariat-esk banner.

>Is transhumanism just a wet dream of many whom are afraid of dying or relinquishing their societal standing?
It is not JUST that, but fear is no doubt one reason why people like to think about it.

It's a symptom of the times we live in. When religious beliefs die, people replace the possibility of a life after death with the possibility of immortality based on science.

Coincidentally those who are more likely to identify with it are those who didn't manage to enjoy their life as teenagers and young adults, so this new scientific religion gives them a hope that someday their troubles will be scientifically engineered away (since their problems can only come from chemical-physical causes, right?).

>>3824330
> By 2035 I fully expect something like an eye augmentation that matches/surpasses human vision to cost under $5,000, if not $500.

Yes, because medical advances have only resulted in lower costs for the relief obtained.

OH WAIT YOU SUCK COCKS INSTEAD.

>>3824646
>When religious beliefs die, people replace the possibility of a life after death with the possibility of immortality based on science.
Yes, history teach that, it happened time and time again, and the results are catast-wait a second.

>>3824693
Only because humans are stil involved in the process, and we have no way to automate, and due to the fact that their formation is quite long, their salary are quite high.
Hence the price.
>way to automate
is the important part.

>feel
Well, it doesn't matter what you feel. All technology is expensive initially then gets cheaper, the rich already get the best medical treatment, since you are on the internet and speaking english most likely you are in a 1st world country and already receive better treatment than other conscious beings in the 3rd world who live Dickensian lives.

It's just the way shit be, don't get emotional over it, just come to peace with it.

>>3824693
Way to miss the rest of my post, you bleach-addled cancer patient.
I expect 3D printing to be HUGE. Already it's gaining some popularity and just recently an entire car was printed. Sure, it might not be perfect or very large, but its proof-of-concept, and this is nowhere near the end of development on such machines. The sizes they can print at will get smaller, they will get faster, the materials will become mass-produced and therefore cheaper, and they'll eventually become an integral part of life. And that's just the consumer version. I can just imagine 40 years ago some asshat bitching how computers will always be huge and expensive and only the ultra wealthy will have them.

>>3824732
> DERP DERP DERP PHARMACEUTICALS ARE NOT MASS-PRODUCED AND SANTA CLAUS ALSO EXISTS

Guy, why not just put down the laptop and go back to listening to what your high-school instructors are telling you? You are clearly fucking ignorant.

We have plenty of opportunity to automate in the medial arena. To some extent what you say is true, but Humans could have demanded equal non-automation in the factories. They automated there instead, and they can automate similarly in the medial field. But the laboring classes are not Jewish, whereas the medical classes are HEAVILY Jewish, and since Jews are the Ruling Class of the West, then there's no way they will ALLOW automation to obsolete their jobs as well as make their products cheap.

This is a game that's all about who's in charge and what those in charge will allow to happen. And that's what happens when you have a race of violent simians ooking and screeching and lying about how they are really scientists, engineers and philosophers.

>>3824796
>JEWS JEWS
Oh great
>VIOLENT SIMIANS
Oh fuck off it's you again, go away

>>3824787
> 10 PRINT "DERP"; 20 GOTO 10

Get back to me when you can "3D print" metallurgical characteristics like HARDNESS.

The usefulness of 3D printing can not be sanely denied. But I'm denying that it will automate everything. It will merely be ADDED as another tool in the engineering shop. And given that we no longer have free markets, it will not make anything that's truly USEFUL into something that's cheaper. Useful things will only become more dear with time, since that's a by-product of the realities of the peaking of Cheap Oil.

>>3824796
Sounds like someone is going through a rough phase. It's okay, bro.

>>3824826
>It will merely be ADDED as another tool in the engineering shop.
And as a tool it will be huge.

>And given that we no longer have free markets, it will not make anything that's truly USEFUL into something that's cheaper.
You say this with such certainty.

>Useful things will only become more dear with time, since that's a by-product of the realities of the peaking of Cheap Oil.
Please don't tell me you're one of those guys who thinks that everything will become astronomically expensive forever when oil becomes scarce? There's going to be a decade-long period of suck before stuff gets cheaper again, yeah, but not the kind you guys usually prat on about.

Also may not respond to your next post, I've gotta go really soon.

>>3824826

>Get back to me when you can "3D print" metallurgical characteristics like HARDNESS.

Mechanosynthesis of diamond and diamond derivatives.

Unlike you, I have sources for these claims:

http://www.molecularassembler.com/Nanofactory/AnnBibDMS.htm

Specifically:

“Mechanical vertical manipulation of selected single atoms by soft nanoindentation using near contact atomic force microscopy"

“A Minimal Toolset for Positional Diamond Mechanosynthesis,”

>>3824255
>transhumanism

Transhumanists take everything about the singularity on faith and fraudulent data.

You cannot reason them out of their position. They simply did not use reason to get into their position, just "i wish it was so, so it will be!"

They also have a striking resemblance to religious adherents when they're told that most people are against mutilating their bodies and having machines put into their minds, they say "well they can just die" like the christian tells the athiest that he's going to hell if he doesn't accept Kurzweil, er, jesus.

>>3825064

Transhumanism != The Singularity

>>3825068

It still applies. You think that everyone on earth shares your ideals of invasive surgery and cold metal bodies, and if they don't, well they'll just be left to die!

Humanity will never alter itself cosmetically. and since there is no objective "better" humanity, we'll never "better" ourselves with genetics either.

The scary truth that transhumanists hide from is that no god or technology will be our savior.

It's up to us.

>>3825082

>You think that everyone on earth shares your ideals of invasive surgery and cold metal bodies, and if they don't, well they'll just be left to die!

First of all, I don't. Second of all, replacement of biology with mechanical parts isn't necessary to prevent death. In most cases it's not even worth it.

>Humanity will never alter itself cosmetically. and since there is no objective "better" humanity, we'll never "better" ourselves with genetics either.

Lack of an objective 'next step in evolution' (Or whatever people call it) won't prevent people from going this or that direction.

>It's up to us.

Technology doesn't recursively self-improve without humans, so, yes, it's up to us. Nothing new.

>>3825068
Hi, Colonel.

>>3825082
>invasive surgery and cold metal bodies

You think that is what transhumanists want? You even think it will be possible to interface a human properly with metallic, mechanical components? Human bodies don't even take particularly well to artificial joints, and that's a well developed technology. Synthetic biology is the future bro.

>>3825082

>It still applies.

Oh, and, no, it doesn't.

>Transhumanists take everything about the singularity on faith and fraudulent data.

Since I don't believe in the Singularity, this line doesn't apply.

>They simply did not use reason to get into their position, just "i wish it was so, so it will be!"

I'm not a technological determinist, so this doesn't apply. Most transhumanists (Not Singularitarians) don't believe the future is a program written by a Charles Stross character.

>he doesn't accept Kurzweil, er, jesus.

Everyone hates that guy.

>>3825091

Read this: >>3825068
and deleted my post. It was directed at the wrong people.

>>3825097

Everyone here knows this was written by an impersonator. Trying to discredit me by posting screenshots of posts that don't match with the writing style of any other post? Though I guess you'll likely succeed since this board is full of gigantic morons.

>>3825102

>You even think it will be possible to interface a human properly with metallic, mechanical components?

... dude, it's possible. As in, we're doing it. Right now.

>>3825129
Reading. How does it work?

>>3825120
then how did he have the correct tripcode?
also, theres nothing wrong with being gay, brah.

>>3825157
Ek didnt you change trips once because someone figured yours out?

Inb4 #pascal

>>3825129
>right now
We have been for a long time actually.

>>3825157

>>3825145

You tell me, because I have no idea what the angry face is all about.

>>3825168
yes. i figured CCM would do the same if his was also discovered.

>>3825169
ah, photoshopped?
makes sense.
some cunt shopped a chess image with the dunning kreuger effect linked, making me out to be an arrogant bitch. it was shopped, original post was posted by some anon.

>>3825180

>ah, photoshopped?

No, the tripcode was (Is) a dictionary word.

>yes. i figured CCM would do the same if his was also discovered.

Too tired and too high a post count :)
Also I'd have to inform Inurdaes and Mad

>>3825197 Postcount
I once saw a list of trips by posts, and always wondered where suxh information could be obtained

>>3825197
really? then somebody else knows your word...
when #taxon was discovered it was relentlessly spammed all over /sci/ for several days
"hurr durr, troll EK"
I had to get a new one.
>too high a post count
lol, like its a competition? i have the high score

>>3825219
http://archive.installgentoo.net/cgi-board.pl/sci/reports/post-count

Was electircity kept only for the rich and powerful ? no. nothing to worry about.. everyone will have it. even the somalians.

See, I just didn't get a tripcode at all. I figured I'd get plausible deniability from it, but really nobody cares enough to fuck with it.

Except now that I've mentioned it, they will. That's how psychology works.

Also, what's going on in this thread?

>>3825242

Google: "Toilet Crisis"

I think you'll be saddened by how much tech has been kept from the rest of the world.

>>3825473
>Except now that I've mentioned it, they will. That's how psychology works.
yes, they will.
always happens.
i was originally just 'EK' with no tripcode.
i was impersonated, so i took a tripcode, which was found out, so i took another

same thing happened to my housemate. she originally posted just as 'harriet' (or sometimes just as anonymous) and people impersonated her when she used it, so she started using a tripcode as well (which i helped her create, because she is too inept to realise how tripcode explorer works) (FYI, i dont know her tripcode, i helped create it but i didnt memorise it. it was a random string of letters/numbers anyway)

>>3825483

No so much 'kept' as 'no incentive to go out of the way to spread'.

Keep in mind 99.9% of the population will go their entire lives without having discussions on morality the way we are used to. It's just not seen as important.

And that's why 37/40 people will follow through with torture, as long as they have the chance to say "It's not my fault, I was just following orders."

Why does /sci/ believe in progress so horribly. We are basically still in the seventies as much as physics is concerned. There are a few advances (minor modifications) regarding computer sciences but other than that real progress is mostly imaginary. We are solely reducing prices. Technology is not really new.

>>3825515

You, uh, you do understand that there is more than one discipline of science, that miniaturization is a form of progress, and that the 70's didn't have near-instantaneous access to all the information of humanity in a small box, right?

Also, as an example, we sequenced the Human Genome in those intervening years.

>>3825515

>Scanning probe microscopy existed in the seventies

Okay bro.

What about the fact that we're still using AA batteries from the 50's?

Why, if it's as you say, hasn't that advanced along with everything else? Have you noticed as i have how it's one of the biggest hurdles that no one seems to be making any progress on? The only reason computers and stuff last longer now than they used to is because they're more efficient. The batteries aren't much better.

>>3825539

Hey yeah, about that. Wasn't the Human Genome project supposed to let us control our genetics? Did some new problem creep in as it always does?

>>3825578

No, it wasn't. Figuring out the purpose of individual genes and somatic genetic engineering remain equally problematic.

>>3825569

You notice that very few things that cost more than 50$ nowadays use batteries like that?

Hell, even gameboys have battery packs now.

And Tablet PCs can run 17 hours of hard use on a good charge. For a

>>3825578

Nope. We're just still sifting through the data. If you want to start reading three million pages of base codes and looking for patterns, be my guess.

Also, it already is helping. We are using in vitro techniques to help couples who have genes for recessive genetic disorders, and in the next 2 years you will be able to get you genome sequenced for $100-1000 and have your entire personal medical profile tailored directly to your genetics.

That's a price drop of between 30,000,000% and 300,000,000% Within a decade.

So yeah, pretty advanced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU4LuqR5MHY

>>3825595

That should have been "For a device that powerful, that's a lot better than 50's batteries can do. Also, just because they look the same on the outside does not mean they are he same on the inside. You are arguing from ignorance."

>>3825605

Tablet and laptop computers are made to be incredibly efficient. If you took an old macbook from the nineties and hooked it up to the macbook air's power supply, it would last about two seconds.

Also, the power supply of an AA battery has not changed since the 50's.

>>3825595
A ton of cameras still use AA batteries. As do almost all toys. Why are you arbitrarily setting the price at $50?

>>3825650

>Tablet and laptop computers are made to be incredibly efficient. If you took an old macbook from the nineties and hooked it up to the macbook air's power supply, it would last about two seconds.

Increased efficiency is not progress.

Okay.

>>3825595

As for the human genome project, i remember that before it was cracked EVERYONE was saying how we'd instantly be able to tweak humanity in good ways. Shit, it was one of the very first things you could discover in Alpha Centauri.

My point is that people will always see future tech as being the be all end all that will usher in a new world.

We were wrong about the human genome project, i'd bet good money we're wrong about AI and Nanotech.

What is it that Vernor Vinge called it? "The dreams of the past were just that, dreams"

>>3825657

Reading Comprehension. Improved energy efficiency in computers IS NOT an improvement to battery capacity.

We clear?

>>3824255
Probably because you've been sold a bill of goods that is weak and useless.

>>3825682

It's not progress in batteries, but it's progress in computers. Progress in the energy efficiency of computers is very important, don't you want to be able to do more with less?

>>3825689

Well we don't have much choice since the laws of physics have put a keen wall between us and higher energy storage.

That was my point though. You can point to a lot of areas and cherry pick that we are following some "trend" of exponential development, but i can cherry pick counter-examples that show we haven't come far at all.

Space, for example. If you had lived in the 60's would you ever accept my telling you that in the year 2011 no power on earth can get a man into orbit?

>>3825719

>If you had lived in the 60's would you ever accept my telling you that in the year 2011 no power on earth can get a man into orbit?

Probably not. What's the point? Some things advance faster than others, some stall. Progress is not some magical wand, or a line drawn on a plot by the likes of Kurzweil.

>>3825725

I guess my point is that there's no point to predicting the future or holding personal interpretations of the future. You won't be right, and it'll be here soon enough anyway.

>>3824255
I don't like the idea of humans becoming machines, the whole point of the machines is to eliminate massive emotional bias and logical errors.

>>3825756
I disagree, predictions can be accurate. Virtually all applied science is based on prediction, and it's pretty gosh darned useful.

>>3825858

God damn, must you twist everything? You know a theory predicting that a particle will decay in X time is not the same as saying everyone will one day upload their brains to computers.

>>3825878
New poster, actually.

And yes, I know there's a difference. I'm talking about Murphy's law, extrapolation, etc. not predicting where you'll be in 25 years. No psychohistory for me.

>>3825893

>Murphy's Law

lol, I know what you meant, but you're probably more on the mark with murphy.