/sci/ - Science & Math

Creationism is the idea that

one set of physical laws DOES NOT apply to all places at all time.

>>3636952

What Country are you from Op?
I have it difficult to believe that such ridiculoucy is lectured in Europe.

>>3636983
balkan country

found my text-book and it says something like this:

different scientific disciplines started in the church communities of different religions because mostly only the clergy had the oportunity to study/learn how to write. offcourse, because of this most of the phenomenons were explained like an act of god (unlike of the "pagan" beliefs in mysticism and natural forces).
significant scientific discoveries started during the 17. century (continued in the 18./19. century). in that time prevails creationism (...).

No. In religious studies bible stories were handled as fables. Even in high school, when the teacher was a reverend in the local church, it was the same thing.

Lutheran(atheist) finnfag.

I am from Sweden, and I have hardly been taught evolution. I can remember it being mentioned, but not any dedicated time to learn about evolution. I got the feeling that it is so obvious that natural selection is the only way, that everyone is expected to know it.

>>3637049
>lutheran(atheist) lol wat

I find it odd?

>>3637030

I asked you what Country are you from Op.
I koja je to knjiga iz koje si to izvukao?

>>3637064
In much of Europe, you're considered to belong to your parents' religion. Hence in Spain (for example), there are tons of atheists legally registered as Catholic.

In high school biology, the teacher had to give us a handout and a spiel saying, essentially, that there are two modes of thought regarding the speciation of life.

Again in college astronomy, our professor talked about "Contact" and how there are different ways of knowing. It's sad how academia has to whimper and bow to every belief around.

>>3637069
hrvatska (croatia)
book: biologija 4 (alfa; 2010; lichtenthal, bogut, čerba, ilić)

>>3637064
I'm registered as a lutheran and as an atheist.
Me and my whole family are atheists, and my parents too, but we're almost all registered as lutheran mainly because we're too lazy to leave the church.

A huge minority of finns are that way.

>>3637088
+1

I went to a religious school for the first 2 years of high school, and I wasn't just taught creationism, I was constantly fed propaganda about why evolution was wrong, in my science classroom, in between middle school level cellular biology lessons and dissecting worms.

I was educated in the American public education system, graduating from Rhea County High School in eastern Tennessee, in 1995.

My high school biology teacher, Mr. James Wilkey, was one of the authors of "Of Pandas and People." He often said in class that he was legally required to teach evolution, but that it was flatly wrong, and could not account for all the variation in the natural world.

In effect, I and all of my classmates were taught creationism as the truth, and evolution as what we were required to learn to pass tests and get credit for the class.

Do not take that to mean that I believe that bag of wind and his creationist garbage.

>>3637451

Excuse me, I misspoke. His research is cited often in the book, rather than him actually being one of the authors.

>>3637105
It's like that in most of Europe. The younger people are atheists/agnostics, but registered with the state church and most of the actual believers are 40+.

>>3637105
And remaining a church member lets you get a discounted funeral.

>>3637451
so it was like half of the time evolution and half creationism?
if so, what did the teacher do when it was turn to creationism (read the bible)?

In my public school we were taught that all races are equal and other anti science/genetics/evolution bull shit. I hate creationism and our public schooling system .

Swede here, never. And I did get taught about evolution and the origin of species.

None. I knew one christian that wore a WWJD rubber braclet around his wrist. He was a great friend and I couldn't careless about his beliefs.
Sure is good to live Australia

>>3637529
In Scandinavia, you'd be pretty fucked if you went around in public yelling "JESUS LOVES YOU!!!", but then at the same time Richard Dawkins wouldn't find too many friends there either.

Slovenia here
never, it is treated like it should be; bunch of religious bullshit I-don't-know-how-it-happened-so-it-must-be-god
And that's in every class. History, biology, etc.
Even in my college course of Geology the teacher was constantly cracking jokes about these nutcases

Germany here

we were taught evolution but it was a crime to say creationism was false because it offends Muslims and Christians

>>3637524

No, it was all evolution and mainstream science all the time, and every time the topic of evolution came up, we'd get something like "Now remember: I don't believe this nonsense, but I am required to teach it to you."

No wonder so many people in my school were turned off by science. "Lol this isn't true, but you gotta memorize it anyway!" Fat jackass.

I had the unforunate fate of living in Arkansas during the time I was in Elementary school. We were never actually taught about eiter evolution or creationism, but I had this one counselor who talked about oppression of christian in America one day in class, and she brought up how scientists are trying to silence another valid argument for the creation of man, because they hate christians.She also said the people who shot up columbine only shot people after they asked if they were christian, and they said yes.

Yes. Dominican Republic here. They also taught us evolution and natural selection, but the teachers didn't believe in it.

>>3637560

I'm the Tennesseefag that posted earlier. I feel your pain bro. Gotta love the south, huh?

>>3637560
I bet your lessons were like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE_OehRLH3s

>>3637537
Slovenia is a mostly Catholic country, and Catholics for the most part do not reject evolution.

USA here.

I went to a Catholic (Jesuit) gradeschool and creationism/ID was NEVER even mentioned. One student asked about the bible when we were being taught basic evolution. The monk teaching us laughed and told her to talk to the nun that teaches us religion.

I asked Sister Gastwein this and she had something fascinating to say, "The Bible is not a science or history book. It's a religious text written by people that didn't understand the world around them, don't take it so seriously."

Coming from a nun, this changed my life.

High School was no different. It was a private boarding high school that prided itself on high academic standards so this wasn't even a minor issue.

I was in a catholic school until the eight grade, and the only up side was that since the catholic church accepted evolution as fact, they completely discredited creationism. Still, that school was terrible, especially the religion classes I had to go to. The amount of bullshit the teacher pumped in to saying why gays shouldn't marry (She said they were all mentally Ill and delusional). She also made all of us make a pledge to be abstinent until marriage.

Hell no. I remember when someone in my ninth grade bio class asked about evolution, "Why you aloud to teach this stuff, but not like other people's beliefs. For example, I believe God created me."

My teacher said, "Because you can't write a science book on creationism without ever mentioning the theory of evolution. Try to find one. Good luck."

I was so happy.

>>3637589
I've always said that Catholics were more enlightened about this than the Jerry Falwell brigade, but "HURR DURR PRIESTS RAEP PPLZ!"

And I would agree. The OT reflects the (somewhat skewed) history of the early Jews, their laws, customs, and attempts to understand God (an incomprehensible, unknowable force) within the framework of the world that they lived in.

>>3637589

See, if people down here (the southern USA) approached life this way, I wouldn't have such contempt for them.

I live in a city in northwest Oregon. We were taught about genetics and other aspects of Biology in middle school, but evolution and natural selection weren't touched until high school. We learned most of the basics of the theory. It was nice.

But there were still kids saying that Darwin was a racist or that he recanted on his deathbed, ergo evolution was false.

>>3637629
>But there were still kids saying that Darwin was a racist

He was, but then everyone was a racist then. It was just accepted as part of mainstream science that the white Northern European was the ubermensch.

I went to high school on Long Island, New York, and there was no mention of creationism from anyone, including any of the students. Actually, even evolution was barely explained.

>>3637629
Yeah, the point is that we don't believe in evolution because of Darwin. We just credit him with the idea.

>>3637638
Oddly, Hitler came to power right as scientific racism was dying out.

My biology book generally talked about evolution, but at one point offered creationism as one of possibilities.

>>3637545

>we were taught evolution but it was a crime to say creationism was false because it offends Muslims and Christians

you are joking right?

>>3637589
>>3637603
>>3637617
>>3637619

It's true, the Catholic Church these days is amazingly not stupid about most matters of actual fact. Then again they still have exorcists on staff, so who the fuck knows.

>>3637659
Yeh, but they only use them as a last resort when all natural causes are ruled out.

>>3637654
Me2, without forcing the bible into it. (It did imply a lack of evidence for a creator-based existence though).

>>3637629

Darwin racist: pic related.

>>3637617
>>3637619
They are more enlightened. I remember my 5th grade "crisis of faith" wherein I became an atheist. Mom took me to the monseigneur at my school/church and had me talk with him.

She made a poor choice.

He was a Jesuit. The guy had a MS in astronomy. He told me that it's alright to be an atheist and we all find our answers in different places, my choice didn't make me a bad person.

For being such a hierarchical religion seemingly fixated with tradition, pageantry, and spectacle the Catholics are very enlightened. They also aren't very big on literalism, at all.

I remember my grade school religion classes where we openly spoke about the "bad popes", books of the bible that were omitted, the banned book lists, etc. We had the archdiocese-mandated sex-ed classes, but my school opted to take us to a nearby health education center to learn the real thing. We learned about sex, what it is, how different people had it, etc. My 5th grade self proudly declared to my father that I was a "lesbian conveniently trapped in a man's body", much to his delight.
>>3637659
I learned about this. There is a giant inquiry about demonic possession and less than 1% of cases actually merit dispatching an exorcist. "Miracles" are similarly investigated to a surprisingly high standard for a religious organization. There are plenty "weeping Mary's" and Jesus' appearing in toast/water stains/etc. but the actual number of things ruled as miracles is EXTREMELY low.

I'm from Mexico city, in schools they teach evolution theory, if teachers are catholic sometimes they mention the creationism theory, but government compels them to teach evolution as a fact.

Also in other mexican states they only teach creationism because the government of the state is crazy religious

At the end that doesn't matter because when you get home you see a guy suffering in a cross

>>3637667
Like I said, we can't really crucify him for that anymore than we can crucify people in the Middle Ages for not washing their hands before touching food.

Slovakia here.
Creationism was briefly mentioned under "Origin of Life" as one of the popular unscientific hypotheses. It was said belief in it is largely a thing of the past (which is true here, but apparently not in the US lol).

>>3637671
They also maintain that non-Christians may go to Heaven if they follow the basic principles of Christianity and do not engage in certain heathen-ish practices.

>>3637672
Mexico had a pretty vicious anti-religious campaign in the 1920s inspired by the Soviet Union.

>>3637673

Oh, I agree. I just thought I should go find a quotation and post it for discussion's sake.

Yet another Swede here. We read primarily about evolution, and I think the teacher at a couple of times tried to ridicule religion for claiming that we just came out of nowhere. As previously stated, most young people here are atheistic, whereas it's primarily the older ones that actually believe in something.

>>3637582

OP here, same in croatia.
to be clear, i was also taught evolution and creationism was just mentioned by the teacher one day (i think she felt obligated because it was in the book). she just said that creationism exists like an alternative to evolution and that some people belive in it - and that that's ok - everyone choose in what to belive (she didn't say nothing else, on how wrong it's or isn't, probably to not hurt anyone feelings). and that was all, we continued to learn about the historical evolution of evolution and evolution itself.
i was just interested how creationism in class looks like (how teachers teach it).

>>3637537
That's a funny country because they're very non-religious due to decades of communism, but the major religions still receive various privileges from the state.

>>3637682
Yup. For me, thanks to a Catholic education, Pascale's wager is moooo0ooot point.

I may be an atheist womanizer that uses condoms, but I still have an opportunity to enter Heaven. Granted, I don't believe in Heaven but it's nice of them to include me in their fantasy party.

So long as I do things like give the old lady that rear-ended my car a bottle of water while we're waiting for the cops to come, I'm good. This happened yesterday and it's hot as balls outside, poor thing was nervous, shaking, and standing around in the hot sun. I don't do this because of god mind you, just because it's the right thing to do.

I find it amusing that here (in the South) the Atheists behave in a more accepting, kindly, and frankly "Christian" manner than many of the Christians.

Dammit, I'm spanish, studied in a public school but never had any lesson devoted to the subject. Nor even in (catholic) religion classes the creation myth was supposed to be taken seriously, it was presented -even by the teacher who was a priest- like a myth.

I think biblical literalism is more a lutheran-protestant-"whateveryoumaycallit" thing than strictly christian

>>3637713
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. If you'd lived in the Soviet Union, you'd probably find atheists to be the assholes and believers the nice minority.

>>3637707
The RCC had one of it's "We done goofed" moments when Pavelic was massacring Serbs during WWII and they ignored it because he made Catholicism the state religion in Croatia.

Eventually the Church turned around and denounced the Ustasha, but too late by then.

>>3637717

You know, to be perfectly honest, I never understood the discussion of biblical literalism. I know what it is, and I understand that a lot of people see a large portion of the bible as figurative. What I don't get though, is that people make that distinction, considering for whom the bible was written. The old testament was written for a learned class, that's true, but most of the new testament is composed of letters to, well, not exactly learned men. They were lucky to be able to read, and I just don't get the idea that they were communicating in metaphor, except the portions clearly labeled as visions.

Just my two cents worth.

US fag here

In freshmen high-school we had to cover different theories of evolution, and just mention creationism. In AP bio we didn't cover anything about creationism because it wasn't on the AP bio test. Also I never knew about creationism until high school, so I was freaked out when a lot of people in my class believed in it.

>thread about creationism
>57 posts
>no trolling, no butthurt raging

I'm from Brazil and my biology teacher never even mentioned it in classroom, even tough I live in a big catholic country, and around 25 % of people believe in it.

>Texasfag here
>Public school
>Never read a single word about creationism
>Teachers never mentioned god once
>Evolution was taught

graduated in 09'

I remember creationism being talked about in one of my highschool biology books in some chapter called 'different hypothesis on the origin of life', it was just a little paragraph

I studied in a catholic school and they had their own books. I don't remember anything weird about the biology book, I don't know exactly why, but they didn't touch the subject of religion in it. I guess the author was a reasonable man.

The physics book though, started quoting Genesis and comparing the biblical creation story to the Big Bang.

The place was a mess. My father (an atheist in disguise) taught literature there and I had other great teachers that kind of balanced out the religious tone of the school.

There was a 19th century diagram that my biology teacher showed us that had "MAN" in caps on top of the tree. The book didn't say anything about it, but he insisted in asking why was it in all caps. A girl said it was because we were the most intelligent animals, another guy said it was because we were the 'most evolved' and I said it was because of religious mentality. He agreed with me and explained further how we were still getting used to the idea that we are animals just like the others. It's was cool of him to point that out and specially ironic to see most of my colleagues were still trapped thinking that we are chosen in some way.

The very contradiction of the books fueled my teachers to teach us right.

>>3637796
I also had religion classes with a catholic priest. He talked about the history of all religions, which was ok, but it pissed me off to see everyone laughing when he explained why hindus worship the cow and yet their own beliefs were just as noble/ridiculous. Because of my father working there, I didn't come out as an atheist, but I had a lot of fun with the padre. He was once preparing to give a speech on why peace was important and started with the premise of a guy praying inside a church or a synagogue where bombs were exploding just next to him and how he couldn't live that way. I said I didn't think so: "if you truly believe in God and pray for him from within, it doesn't matter what's happening around you, God will reach you". His face was priceless and I know that he knew I was an atheist.

>>3637671
I remember talking to a Jesuit on a plane once, who went out and said he had no problem with homosexual marriage. He said he doesn't blame people way back when for thinking homosexuality was wrong, because back then the bible was the only explanation to the world, so obviously that meant gays were bad. He even said he hates the ultra conservative in the church who still hate homosexuality. He believes god made love for a reason, and you shouldn't be afraid to who you love, because god gave you the ability to do so. My respect for catholocism rose astronomically

I remember in high school religious ed the teacher gave us pieces of paper and said to write down what we think and he would read it anonymously. I wrote that I'm not going to believe something just because I read it in a book. I basically used all of Dawkin's arguments before I had ever heard of the man. Anyway he read it out and managed to make it sound retarded by reading it slow and disjointedly. Know what I mean?

>>3637791
my teacher clarified before starting to teach it that 'I respect what you believe in, but I must teach evolution here.'

But he did mention that in one of the schools he taught the principal actually complained to him when he heard he taught evolution in the classroom.

Our great great great...great grandmother was raped by a Neanderthal, literally.
She was beaten and fucked like a bitch while our grandfather was too chicken to do something about it, your kin, your blood, your family was fucked by an animal and you are that animal's grandchild .

Describe your feelings.

>>3637813
ahaha, hilarious

>>3637818

>>3637818

Neanderthals had bigger brains, so thats why my family is superior now. Feels good man

>>3637813
arguments against religion sound retarded in their obviousness because the very thing is retarded in itself. it's like trying to argue about why you don't believe the cookie monster actually enjoys cookies but just fakes enjoyment as a job

>>3637667
Nice try, but how about posting the whole passage?
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Notable_Charles_Darwin_misquotes
Also Charles Darwin was quite notably against slavery, making the racist allegations all the more hilariously wrong.

>>3637830
cookie monster had a hard life.

My high school Biology teacher (also a coach) taught evolution, and taught it right. He also poked fun at creationists with his students.

All six of us.

I live in SE Arkansas, by the way. Not sure how this happened.

There are no creationist movements which have not been infiltrated by people whos soul purpose is to steer them into being the most irrational arguments possible to prevent there ever being a reasonable sounding alternative to the status quo.

You can see this by the arguments against evolution actually having some kind of an argument, and then the followup "and that means god did it" parts never have any argument at all.

And then this also makes idiots like you guys thinking anyone who questions evolution is how we say it is is automatically some ID moron.

>>3637759
I'd say it's precisely the other way around.
The new testament is way deeper and opened to interpretation than the old one, which denotes the influence of mesopothamic cults in their morality and concept of god... this is, if you make god anger, he will fuck your shit in the most absurd and bizarre way you can conceive.
The New testament by other hand, is more related to hellenistic mysteric cults where the divinity rarely interacts with humans and some level of initialization is required to be part of the cult.
This obviously requires the strict and rigid guide provided by some clergy, this is, the catholic church, but if you abolish (or radically change it) such as the lutherans did, the believer relies on his own conviction -and the faith of the community around him- to maintain the dogma as straight as possible, therefore regarding the holy book not as a guide, but as the only revelated truth around which the whole society must revolve around.
This is one of the reasons why I always found the catholicism slightly less "oppresive" than the reformed counterpart, it relies mostly an organization and not in the whole society
Have in mind

>>3637836
one could still be racist and not believe in slavery. Tons of people in the north, even after the civil war were racist, but didn't believe in it. They essentially believed that all life shouldn't be owned, but whitey was still the master race

>>3637807
Most people that actually have contact with the Church grow to respect it, even if they disagree with it.

There's a reason why I consider myself "culturally catholic" despite my atheism.

My old grade school puts on a festival every year to raise money. There's a wine tasting tent, a beer truck (good, imported beer from all these different European monasteries), gambling (blackjack dealt by monks and nuns, hold-em' tournament with a rake managed by the priests) in the basement, rides, carnival games, and even a special bracelet you can buy to get unlimited open bar when it comes to liquor.

The big church near my parents' house in the downtown historical district does a festival too. Similar, but no rides, live music instead. They have Italian restaurants from around town (most owned by the same family since the 1800's) set up stands to sell fried clams, calamari, cannolis, gelato, good coffee, etc. There's also gambling, wine, beer, liquor, and a cigar roller.

Let's see the Protestants do THAT.

>>3637836

That one is against slavery does not mean one is not racist. The man most clearly was racist, and to deny that fact just muddies up the real issue. He wasn't a moral paragon, because nobody is, but he was most assuredly right about evolution.

If you had read the whole thread, you'd have seen that I just posted it for discussion's sake, sicne the fact that he was racist was mentioned.

>>3636952
I think my biology teacher said something like "Other people may have their own beliefs"

I don't remember it perfectly but I think he said it in a pretty disdainful way, like he felt he had to to cover his ass. We then proceeded to look at examples of evidence of evolution and the subject was never mentioned again.

for reference this was Los Angeles, California, approx. 1998

I wasn't taught creationism, but I do remember my economics teacher getting mad and telling the class that animals can't feel and that we should read our Bibles. I don't remember reading that anywhere in the Bible.

I almost bought into religion at one point. The thing that almost got me was the fact that our entire timeline has been split because of it. It's the enormity of the thing that captures people. I'll never look down on someone for being religious, it has very little to do with intelligence. They get you when you're young and then gradually you become less ignorant but you put all your effort into trying to protect your broken world view. Like Dawkins says, you are a product of your time.

>>3637860

Athiest here, but this is one of my favorite verses because I think it really gets to the whole point of what our rational purpose is.

Gen. 1 28

Then God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground."

>>3637871

God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth

Better translation

So I went to a private school that was christian and taught creationism. What it boiled down to is a single day in my Biology class where we were told

#1. Micro-evolution does not lead to macro-evolution.
#2. Carbon dating is flawed
#3. Missing links are all hoaxes and can be explained in various ways.
#4. Specific examples (giraffe) supporting #1.

But we did not use a creationist textbook. We used the same textbook as other schools. After that we learned the same evolution as everyone else and nothing more was ever said and my tests were based on evolution and not creationism.

>>3637864
Not everyone became religious through their youth.

>>3637882
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xdm5he_richard-dawkins-demonstrates-laryng_tech

Fuck giraffe

I'm in France.

If I didn't have internet I probably would never have heard of creationism.

>>3637882
It was like that at our school but even more subtle. Creationism was never really brought up at all outside of the single period a week we had for religious ed. Thinking back about it now our school was very careful to keep things as clean as possible to prevent anyone from raising a red flag about conflicting material. But then my school always presented the most modern and intangible religious views. They never went flat out 6000 year old earth.

>>3637882
What I wonder on is why creationists are so stuck on carbon-dating specifically when carbon dating isn't what we use to date the age of the earth or most fossils?
They do know it's only one of several types of radiometric dating types, right?

>>3637874
How is subdue better than govern? Governance requires wisdom, subdue requires brute force. Wisdom makes a man better.

>>3637915
>They do know it's only one of several types of radiometric dating types, right?
Not really, no, some of them don't know much at all.

But all the stuff they hate the most comes from carbon dating, since it goes up to around 50,000-60,000 years back, and their "history" only goes back about 6000.

>>3637915
They probably do, but you can't expect them to be intellectually honest, since they are driven by ideology.
But maybe they are just genuinely stupid/ignorant (like Ray Comfort and his bananas), I wouldn't count out that possibility.

>>3637920
I think you're reading way too fucking far into an English translation. You'd have to look up the nuance and connotation of the original Hebrew.

>>3637920

I like subdue much better.

>>3637906
Isaac Asimov always said that he didn't care what other people believed in as long as they didn't intrude into science, in which case their claims were subject to testing/scrutiny.

>>3637920

Our recent population explosion has been due to us subdoing nature.

We dont get to hold court and decide if nature will bring us a flood or not. But we can build strong structure that subdue natures destructive power like dams.

Nature is hostile, the universe is hostile. They are things for humanity to overcome and dominate, not govern.

No where in the fucking bible does the bible say earth is 4000 or 6000 years old you fucking retard

>>3637939
It's a concern if we're being taught violence over wisdom due to nuances of language.

>>3637941
Monster.

>>3637965

I have heard a christian theory that everything was created half aged. lols

>>3637965

Calm yourself. the 6000 year old claim comes from the bible's listings of geneaologies, ages at which rules and important figures had heirs, etc.

It doesn't say 6000 years old, because when it was written it wouldn't have been 6000 to them. It would have been 2k-3k years younger.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4qrmr_expelled-no-intelligence-allowed_tech

watch this and understand the truth about religion and science

>>3637965
Correct; it doesn't. That was an idea invented by Bishop Usser in the 17th century. He tabulated all the lifespans/geneologies from the OT and concluded that the Creation happened in 4004 BC. Many people up to that time believed the days of Creation were ages rather than literal 24 hour periods. I believe St. Augustine wrote about this and probably others too.

>>3637959
This is about living organisms and not rocks and shit.

>atheists knowing more about what the bible says than christians

I can never get over this

>>3638004
I don't get it.

I never understood the belief that you had to choose between religion and science. My teacher taught us that studying science was just another way of studying god. We learned about evolution and most other stuff and they never shoved religion down our throats, they're philosophy was believe what you want to believe.

Canada here by the way.

>>3638004
This is generally true. At a local rationalist group, we got an email from a Christian study group studying other faith choices. They asked us to bring by a few people to be the Atheist representatives.

They were fucking floored when we brought a Yale educated religious studies professor. Their pastor got schooled not in the basic atheism/faith thing but on the finer points of his own religion.

>>3638004
You know 'facts' but if you aren't moved to belief by the wonders of the Holy Bible then you really aren't reading it properly. Atheists are proof that you can cut something incredible up and remove its value.

>>3638004
People can have fallen out of their faith. People don't have to have faith to need/want to read a religious text.

I guess The Lord's power does not extent to clarity.

>>3638035
What points were those?

>>3638004
And what about all the random every day people who dont know shit about science? I guess the fact that some christian somewhere knows more science than the common person proves that non-christians are idiots?

>>3637995
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=six-things-ben-stein-doesnt-want-you-to-know&pa
ge=3
Not sure if troll, pretty much everyone on /sci/ knows Ben Stein's documentary is intellectually dishonest propaganda.

Seems pretty damned illogical for an atheist to spend all day obsessively studying a religion he has dismissed out of hand as nonsense.

Uk, here.

4 years of science class, one class after 3 and a half years theres a single half page in the text book about creationism. Teacher says some people believe the Earth was created by God.

>tldr; Creationism was taught in 5 minutes and never spoken of again.

>>3638056
Religion is a very important part of our world.

>>3638079
Would I bother sitting and reading TGD if I thought it nonsense? Of course not.

>>3638089
>TGD
What?

>>3638056

I am an atheist, and I read the bible occasionally. There's some good stuff in there with all the lulz, you know.

And besides, I like to know what mistakes people are making.

>>3638098

Everyone should read the bible, the talmud and torah, the quaran, and other major religious texts, just like they should read and watch important fiction and historical commentary / documents. It's important to be able to understand people that don't think the way you do.

Hell, I even read the Satanic Bible once, because I had a friend who was getting into satanism.

>>3638116
Eh, I don't really need to read that anyway since there's no arguments in there I haven't seen on 4chan religion threads 1,499,220 times.

The first time I came across this creationism vs. evolutionism thing was here at 4chan. Both sides of the debate (rarely a discussion) seem to share a deeply religious mental configuration.

>>3638153

Im glad you found a way to feel superior to both of them bro.

>>3638153

Are you American? The current field of republican candidates for president overwhelmingly believes and supports creationism, with only two exceptions.

Let me repeat that: we have a real chance of electing a president that doesn't believe in evolution.

>>3638170
As long as he doesn't pass a bill outlawing evolution in schools, it doesn't matter to me.

>>3638170
>American full of problems
>base voting decision on something irrelevant

Im sure plenty of protestants people voted against kennedy just because he was catholic.

You are no better than them.

>>3638193
Same with all the blacks who voted for Chimpy because of his racial background.

>>3638193
It's bigger than that. It's not necessarily about disagreeing beliefs, but a lack of critical thinking.

Throwing your hands up and declaring something to be supernatural or un-knowable is lazy. What if this thinking extends to economics, foreign policy, etc?

Intellectual laziness is not acceptable in a leader.

>>3638193

You're assuming I am basing my voting decision on that. I am just saying that the beliefs of people who could become very influential are important by virtue of that influence.

I won't vote for any of the republican candidates for other, much more sound, reasons.

>>3636952
Texas. Absolutely no mention of god, religion or differences of 'opinion' by teachers in any of my science classes that I recall when I was in public school from 3rd to 12th grade. The only things that I remember were as sticker on the inside of my sophomore biology book that said evolution was 'only a theory' that no one ever mentioned. Aside from science classes I remember my 7th grade Texas history teacher arguing with a paleontologist in a video talking about carbon dating clovis artifacts in Texas or something, and a psychology teacher my senior year talking about the importance of picking any religion over having none at all for mental health.

I donno if my districts were just atypical, but I didn't think my experience as far as that sort of thing in high school was as bad as a lot of people make Texas out to be. They even taught us about sex, and although told us to remain abstinent, they told us the importance of using condoms and stuff if we didn't.

>>3638216
>>3637794

I had the same experience in texas

dont creationists believe the earth is flat? why would they still teach that in schools if its obviously wrong?

Went to a (so called) non-denominational christian school from k5-12. It taught creationism as fact and only ever mentioned evolution to discredit it or point out the "holes"

I hated every minute of it- I knew I was being lied to, but I didn't have the information to rebute my teachers.
I was sent to the office during my freshman year biology class when I demanded he explain the positive evidence for creationism, rather than the negative evidence for evolution: weekend detention

>>3638229

No. At least not mainstream creationists.

>>3638229
you got it mixed up. creationists are actually practitioners of a view that each earth day is actually 4 days that at the moment are incorrectly being called a single day. so atheists are all missing out on 3 days they should be getting

>>3637105
What does that mean to be registered as a certain religion? Is it on your ID or something?

>>3638240
FUCK YEAH TIMECUBE

>>3638244
You're baptized as a member of the state religion, which in Finland is the Evangelical Lutheran Church. Hence, unless you renounce your membership, you're considered a member for life regardless of your personal beliefs.

>>3638250
Thats so weird to me. Its strange that the US is often, and rightfully so, accused of being religiously backwards by Europeans, when a lot of European countries actually has a state religion, and the US does not. The only time I've ever been asked by the government was when the Navy asked me what religious preference I want listed on my ID tags.

>>3638280

Well, a lot of European countries have had state religions for a hell of a lot longer than there has been a USA. It's mostly just an anachronistic holdover.

>>3638280
Europe has this history of a state religion that the US does not. You're born into it and remain so unless you relinquish your membership, which most don't both for cultural reasons and to get cheap weddings/funerals.

Hence Sweden is full of atheists registered as Evangelical Lutherans, Britain full of atheists registered as Anglicans, Spain full of atheists registered as Catholics, etc.

Some countries do have more practicing believers than others such as Italy (due to the RCC's overriding political and social influence there)

>>3638290
Yeah, I know, but it just seems like more of them would have dropped that when they changed their governments up over the past couple hundred years. That's actually what makes me more irritated with religious conservatives in the US who insist that we're a 'christian nation' when we were one of the first countries founded explicitly on secular terms with no state religion.

>>3638303
Except that most people in Europe still regard the churches as part of their cultural heritage even if they don't actively believe.

There are of course active believers, mostly older women.

>>3638303
The biggest anti-clerical nation in Europe is France, and they waged an all-out war on the RCC from the 1880s to the 1900s.

Historical reasons; even in medieval times, the French had numerous disputes with the Church.

>>3638307
I can understand cultural heritage and stuff, especially given 500 year old cathedrals and stuff that we don't have in the US (the closest thing like that where I live are 300 year old Spanish missions) but stuff like getting cheaper funerals because you say you believe in the state religion would kind of bother me.

>>3636952
Canada, and no.

My high school biology teacher devoted a portion of each class to entertaining us with talks on how retarded creationism was, or how retarded it is to talk of "organic vegetables".

Needless to say he was everyone's favourite teacher.

In America freedom of religion traditionally means the right to believe as you wish. In Europe (and France especially), it means the right to not believe since membership in the state religion is the default condition.

Of course, in many places like Scandinavia it's taboo to discuss religion in public. Quite different in the UK which is full of vocal atheists.

And this is why Islam has caused a huge problem. Because unlike Christianity, it can't be a private matter by definition. Islam is seen as more than just a belief by its followers. More like an entire way of life.

>>3638313
Glad to be having a civil discussion on 4chan concerning religion and national differences with Europeans without it being hurrdurr amerifat derp eurofag. Even after mentioning that I'm in the military.

America (Florida at that) and fucking NOOOO.

All of my science teachers were awesome.

>>3638338
This isn't /sp/ or /b/.

>>3638338
>mfw an Amerifat was fat near me

>>3638341
I donno I've seen some awful trollfests on /sci/, /g/, and /k/ where I usually browse but I think a lot of the kids are back in school.

>>3637589

this is similar to what I got, went to Catholic school for all of elementary and high school and was always told not to take bible creation stories literally. I vaguely remember religion coming up in my 7th grade bio class, with a teacher I really respected and who got me into science, and she said something to the effect of its possible to fully justify religion and science by believing God put all the pieces in place originally and then evolution naturally took its course, which I don't have much of a problem with I suppose. Makes it hard to accept that creationism is actually taught in other places

>>3638321
Once had a Belgianfag tell me that nobody under 40 there much believes in God, but they still consider the Catholic schools superior to public ones because stricter standards and no sand niggers.

Eleventh grade biology:
>"Our next unit is evolution. I'm aware that some of you may not believe in evolution. I don't care, you still have to learn about it."
>no one complains
>never mentioned again

Meanwhile, in eleventh grade English:
>"Our next unit is mythology. The first myth we will be covering is the Biblical story of Genesis."
>no one complains

My high school was pretty secular.

>>3638402
The Creation account was apparently written down during the Babylonian exile. That would mean either the early Jews didn't have a creation myth or it's been lost.

Catholic education unfortunately gets lumped in with stupid WASP/evangelist nonsense, when they're worlds apart. Catholics laugh at all of the jumpy-singy churches American rednecks come up with. As Bono (a former Catholic) said of American televangelists, "they're God's used car salesmen".

>>3637882

an incorrect way to describe giraffe evolution is to say that giraffe necks grew longer over time because they needed to reach tall trees. Evolution doesn't see a need and respond to it. A mutation resulting in longer necks would be more likely to benefit an animal in an area with tall trees than an area with short trees, and thus enhance the chance of the animal surviving to pass on its longer-necked genes. Tall trees could not cause the mutation nor would they cause a higher percentage of animals to be born with longer necks.In the giraffe example, the evolution of a long neck may equally well have been driven by sexual selection, proposing that the long necks evolved as a secondary sexual characteristic.

I learned about Natural Selection but I dont remember learning speciffics of biological evolution.
At the time biology was only a pre-requisite for university and was not part of the core ciriculum and I did not take advantage of the opportunity, I believe I took french 30 instead and neglected the sciences in favour of free periods.

We did have to recite the Lord's Prayer every morning and sang christian songs during "carols" in the month of December but religion itself was not mentioned at all in regular public schools in my experience. We certainly were not taught random ideas from particular denominations such as young earth theories.

That simply was not what school was for, there was no controversy about this subject at all.

If anything religion was simply a reason to have gingerbread-house raffles.

>>3638432
Fundie Christianity isn't even representative of most American Christian churches. Many places like New England are a lot more European in their religious attitudes, although Massachusetts (a place created as a Puritan haven) is now mostly Catholic.

No, the fundies are confined chiefly to the South and Midwest. Many of us do not like them, but politicians have to lick their boots to get votes.

internet atheist refugees from /b/

>>3638411
Genesis, and the five books of Moses existed long before the vassalisation of Judah by Babylon.

The books written in exile era are late Old Testament eg. Isaiah, Esther. Your basically suggesting Judaism didn't exist until the exile, which is stupid.

It's called Lamarckian evolution and it's confirmed in bacteria such a E-coli; they mutate as if they have a innate knowledge of their environment.

>>3638454
agreed. evolution has no initiative, it's reactionary.

>>3638482
Most of the OT was not written down until the Exile period, although there is a cryptic reference to Josiah discovering a book of laws.

The early Jews were much like all the other pagan peoples of the time except for being monotheistic, and what we think of as Judaism didn't really appear until later.

>>3638523
The core things that define Judaism are in the Books of Moses those five books make up the functional core of Judaism. Without them there is no Judaism.

>>3638535
Right, and most of it was not written down until the Exile, although probably based on the book of laws that Josiah found.

>>3638550
They were not, the books were in Judah long before Babylon vassalised it. 1/3 of the OT books(~1/2 of the volume) was written before that event.

Unless your suggesting Jews recreated Judaism 800 years after it was made. You're going to need evidence for that.

>>3637582
>Slovenia is a mostly Catholic country

Slovenian here, Slovenia is a mostly post-communist country. Something like 55% of the citizenry is Catholic, and at least of the third of the remainder vitriolically hate the Church and its slaves.

I honestly don't even remember being taught anything about creationism. The only Christian I knew until I was in my 20s was my grandmother, and I first set foot in a church during service when I was 23.