/sci/ - Science & Math

>>3610722
You're acting under the assumption that this will make a non-negligible difference.

>>3610729
I think this has potential. It's already got nearly 2 mil signatures. It's not going to win the 2012 election, but its presence will be impossible to ignore, and won't simply disappear. As things get worse, it's only going to garner more support.

>>3610737
Sure, but natural selection has bred a species that has self interest above all other priorities, and thats not something that will easily be altered. Essentially, as long as issues are being resolved by a single person, or a group of persons acting as one entity, there will always be problems. The reason being that this person, or entity, will continually act in a way that is advantageous for itself first, and others secondly.

Altruism has no place in politics, unfortunately.

>2011
>spamming meaningless political bullshit as though you're changing the world

This doesn't go far enough because it doesn't get over the fact that the entire system is rotten to the core.

Even if it succeeded and we elected a President who supported every policy which a majority of americans supported he'd get nothing done because congress is bought, the bureaucracies are bought.

These 2 million people who signed this would better serve themselves by going to washington and protesting and not leaving until the entire system capitulates.

>>3610787
>implying that would do anything at all and not just be a sub-tea bagger tard fest
>implying it's productive to attempt to overturn an entire system without widespread support that's organized in a specific direction
>implying politicians are evil and not just bound by not very interesting pragmatic concerns

>>3610767
>Sure, but natural selection has bred a species that has self interest above all other priorities, and thats not something that will easily be altered.

butthatswrongyoufuckingmoron.mp3

Humans would not have survived until today with the overwhelming self-interest they have today. The majority of our current problems come from misinformed attempts to manipulate human behavior by latching onto simple motivations and abusing them in ridiculous excess. It's overdosing on vitamins because 'vitamins are good for you'.

>>3610844
>Humans would not have survived until today with the overwhelming self-interest they have today.

[citation needed]

>>3610844
>Humans would not have survived until today with the overwhelming self-interest they have today

Self-interest is a main driving force in human history. Don't confuse mutually beneficial actions with lack of self-interest.

>see this on every board
>/sci/ falls for it

>>3610887
I'm not confusing them, they're different things. Mutual benefit is much closer to altruism than self-interest.

Did someone say self interest?

>>3610921
>Mutual benefit is much closer to altruism than self-interest.
mutual benefit describes the rewards of an act, whereas altruism and self interest are motives.

wheres your proof that actions which provide mutual benefit are more likely (or, more frequently) to be done as a result of altruism than self interest?

>>3610934
Altruism ideally results to mutual benefit, by caring for others you enable others to be capable of caring for you. If I teach you how to say grow food then you are more likely share food with me if I need some.

Self-interest can sometimes result in mutual benefit but more than like it results in dysfunction. If I hoard all the food I grow then not only do you starve but I have to spend extra effort protecting my stash from your efforts to survive (by stealing my food).

And sure enough what do we have today? America, one of the most self-interested countries on the planet, has the highest prison population.

Are politics as usual working for you?

No?
>Vote Ron Paul

Yes?
>Vote for someone other than Ron Paul

>>3610989
Ok, I'm going to assume you're not trolling but...

Firstly, both can lead to a mutually beneficial situation, agreed, however you don't prove altruism is more prevalent, or provide any logical reason for it to occur more likely as a motive than self interest.

>America, one of the most self-interested countries on the planet, has the highest prison population.
You haven't proven a causal relationship. There could be co-relational factors, but you haven't proven that self interest is a direct cause of illegal behaviors, just given evidence to suggest that the two are correlated.

>>3610989

>America, one of the most self-interested countries on the planet, has the highest prison population.

How do we know America is one of the most self interested countries in the world?

>>3611027
It's soft science what do you expect? I'm especially not going to dig up studies when you don't have any either.

>>3611040
Say that again so I can filter you, I just have to confirm that you are truly that retarded.

>>3611045
Its not about studies, its that you haven't proven anything, or provided any valid argument. If you had taken a high school philosophy class you'd know how logically flawed your arguments are, while also providing no studies to support it.

Theres no reason at all to believe your idiocy.

>>3611058
Hes not explicitly stating that America is or isn't, hes saying that you have no objective evidence to prove it. Its not enough to think something, you must prove it.

>>3611058
>>3611075

Thats exactly right I am not stating it is or isnt. We just dont have any measure.

Here is a factoid I dont have any opinions about, America donates a lot more money per capita than any other country in the world.

Can you reconcile that with the notion that America is a country of extremely selfish people?

I just looked it up. I remember Dan Ariely claiming that Americans were extremely charitable. But wikipedia seems to suggest we are only reasonably charitable.

>self interest

implying republicans going to tea party rallys screaming for lower taxes for corporations is in their self interest

>>3611084
There could be multiple levels of self-interest at work here.

The initial self-interest is that which results in people who require charity in order to survive. It could be that jobs up and vanished with the pursuit of profit or that a local economy was destroyed by callous disregard. Another possible cause is automation, which should be something to celebrate but is instead a threat to a worker's survival due to economic systems in place based on self-interest.

There's also tax incentives to account for as I'm sure the majority of the donation comes from business and wealthy individuals. If they can pay less by making a donation it's in their best interest... though we all might suffer overall due to the loss of tax revenue.

>>3610994
What's so great about Ron Paul? /new/ loves him too.

>>3611146
>/new/
>2011

>>3611084
You're ignoring the fact that people who donate money might have ulterior motives. The onymous donators are most likely doing it for publicity while those who donate anonymously just want to make themselves feel better or satisfy some requirement of their religion.

>>3611162

First of all.. Im ignoring all the facts. I have no facts in from of me. But you seem to be extremely aware of how and why everyone donates money.

I simply have no knowledge of why onymous donors usually donate, or why anonymous donors usually donate.

Anyway, your thoughts and feelings about people who donate is very cynical.

>>3611155
It lives on at 4 c h o n.

>>3610722
The actual structure of the American political system is FUCKING FINE.

The problem is that the majority of the american people are shitty, uneducated fools. Ya'll elect fucking retards...WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU EXPECT TO HAPPEN?

Then all you do is bitch about it. EDUCATE YOURSELF!, Elect SMART PEOPLE!

\Thread

>>3611191
>complain about people bitching
>bitch

In political science, Duverger's law is a principle which asserts that a plurality rule election system tends to favor a two-party system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law

y'all niggas is so mad.

why y'all niggas so mad?

oh, y'all niggas mad cause your elected officials are stylin on you.

>>3611213

Im so mad I elected Mr. boner. Im sucha dummy for doing that.

>>3611176
>I simply have no knowledge of why onymous donors usually donate, or why anonymous donors usually donate.
Isn't it obvious? Rich people (e.g., Bill Gates) naming their charities after themselves reek of pride. Corporations giving out scholarships and donations have the obvious motive of getting publicity. Celebrities eager to make publicity when donating meager sums obviously have only self-promotion in mind.

Giving alms is one of the "pillars" of Islam. Even a Saudi prince said publicity that if he gives what poor people want, God will give him want he wants. That sounds more like a business transaction than a genuine act of kindness.

If a person is really donating out of goodwill, he/she shouldn't expect anything in return.

Only reason people even know or care about this is because it was on TV colbert

>>3611242

And you dont know that anyone does expect anything to begin with. There is no mutual exclusivity between donating because you look good doing it, and donating because you honestly care. And even if there was it doesnt resolve the fact that you dont know to begin with.

>>3611221
<span class="math">\overset{\cdot~\cdot}{\smile}[/spoiler]

>>3611242
>If a person is really donating out of goodwill, he/she shouldn't expect anything in return

True altruism doesn't exist, there's always a selfish want behind every selfless action. Read the selfish gene by richard hawkin

Summary of everything thats wrong with the American system.

They think corporations are people.
People Get free speech
Donating money to politics is free speech

It all goes down hill from there into a maelstrom of regulatory capture and corruption of the highest order.

>>3611257
>And you dont know that anyone does expect anything to begin with.
Viewing it from an economic perspective, I expect something selfish.

>>3611284

Why can't we have a fund(created by tax dollars) to fund both candidates equally, cut the campain season to 2 months(or less).

Because fuck you, thats why.

>>3611291

:)

Thats called Canada!

>>3611264
I think it's redundant to read several hundreds of pages of text that have been summarized by what you've just said.

>>3611191
Honestly I don't see how adding another party into the system or whatever some idiots might think is a good idea would do anything but make things even worse. Having 3 or more parties running in the current system simultaneously just mean far less than a majority of voters voted for the winning candidate.

>>3611302

nope.avi

Harper is doing away with that, now that he finally has a majority. And guess what party has all the corporate donors?

>>3611191
>Ya'll elect fucking retards...WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU EXPECT TO HAPPEN?

I love it when people say this, it helps me know that I haven't fallen asleep and that supporters for business as usual are still fucking retarded.

Guess what, we don't pick the candidates and there is no 'pick less shitty candidates' option at the polls.

>>3611242
While we're talking about donations and publicity, how about all those various 'do X pointless task for us and we'll give money to someone'. Like walk for life and shit, wouldn't that man power be put to better use actually doing something?

>>3611387

Maybe. Maybe not. A lot of those walk for life things are for cancer. And there isnt much use for millions of man hours from people.

I agree though. Any kind of charity that has to offer something to you in exchange is dumb.

>>3611372
That is a good point. However, the vast majority of american people always pick "the shittiest canidate" avalible. They pick dumb people who they can idenity with (cause most americans are not educated properly), instead of the best person for the job.

SERIOUSLY GUYS! WTF?
Sara Palin? Michele Bachmann? Rick Perry? Christine O'donnell? John McCain?

WHY? These were the shittiest canidates available! Why the fuck do you enjoy picking dumbasses who know nothing about actual american history, world history, or political science in general?

Then you pick crazy ass Fundementalists like Rick Perry? And people who are against civil rights like John McCain?

WTF AMERICA? YOU ARE FUCKING DISSAPOINT!

THE DOWNFALL OF YOUR COUNRTY HAS FUCKING BEGUN, AND ITS YOUR OWN FUCKING FAULT! WISE THE FUCK UP!

>>3611416

That does sum up Friedman rather nicely.

>>3610722
60% of Americans believe that a magic sky man created the world 5000 years ago, and that man rode dinosaurs.

YOUR GOVERNMENT IS SHITTY CAUSE YOUR PEOPLE ARE FUCKING RETARDED! Educate your people, and you will have a better government.

>>3611416
>incredibly tl;dr political cartoon

>>3611455

100% of the people I dont like are big stupid idiots who make straw men because only stupid people use strawmen

>>3611455
99% of Europeans think it's a problem that food contains "chemicals" and that if only the evils of capitalism were remedied, food would not contain them.

Stupidity among the electorate is rampant in all democracies.

>>3611460
10 out of 10 people enjoy taking polls.

>>3610722
>Implying the american system of governemt is broken

>Implying it isn't the majority of the american people that are broken

>>3611477

Made me laugh.

>>3610767
>not understanding mammals
>2011
wow, i actually think we need some biologists in here

>>3611460
You think that the education/intellegence of citizens is not directly correlated to the value of the decisions they make?

You blame the bad decisions they make on the "system" and not the "actual decison makers"?

I think you need to look up what a "straw-man" argument is, cause you don't seem to understand correctly. Also, your critical thinking ability is shit. LMFAO

>>3611475
WTF?!

>>3611508

>You think that the education/intellegence of citizens is not directly correlated to the value of the decisions they make?

No.

First of all, I dont know how you measure intelligence. I dont think there is a measure of intelligence. So Im just going to throw that out and we can talk about education.

I go to college, Im being educated. I dont think having a college degree can act as a license for "good decision maker." Education is specialized, and there is no voting specialist. Simply having a PhD even doesnt make you better qualified.

Anyway, I didnt have any real qualm about this. I was more criticizing the fact that the poster said that "60% of the population believes in an invisible magic sky man and that men used to ride dinosaurs."

That is a straw man. Its depicting whom you dont like, in a stupid way, regardless of reality, simply so you can say "They are stupid for being that way"

>>3611548
Bullshit he heard on Beck and didn't bother to look up for himself.

It's funny how some faggot that cries at the drop of a hat; is the right wing's american bad ass. Truly, the sloped foreheads run that fucking party.

>>3611567
Wiki suggests that a strawman is this.

Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.

Palin believes our ancestors rode around on dino back up till around 2,000 years ago. So that picture isn't misrepresenting anything she believes. You're just a douche; who wants to pretend he does not vote for fucking morons.

>>3611264
What about the selfish want of preserving values because we like them and want to see them flourish?
There are different kind of selfishness, some worse than others.
And wanting to get more than we donate is on the shit tier of selfishness.

>>3611626

That poster didnt say anything about Sarah Palin. That poster said it about 60% of people, and I dont know what chunk of the population.

>You're just a douche; who wants to pretend he does not vote for fucking morons.

Who did I vote for?

Wait a moment, do you Americans only get two choices for your leadership?
Do you not even get to choose who those two are?

That's only very slightly better than a monarchy, you get a bit of choice, but it's like choosing between two and three sugars in your coffee.

>>3611567

You honestly believe that smart and stupid people (in sense a sense of combined education, critical thinking ability, and knowledge of relavent facts) have an equal chance at making a good decison (decision in their best interests)?

You really think that? That stupid (uneducated, illprepared, unknowledgable) peope have an equal likely hood of making the same "best decison" as a group of smart (educated, prepared, knowledged people). You think that is how the world works?

Did you even go to fucking grade school?NOTHING WORKS LIKE THAT!

In order to increase your liklihood of making the best decison avalible, you need to be educated in the relavent facts, and have a good critical thinking ability. DO YOU REALLY NOT FUCKING UNDERSTAND THAT?

People who believe that the earth was made by a magical man in the sky 5000 years ago (contrary to an overwhelming evidence againt it), HAVE SHITTY CRITICAL THINKING ABILITY AND ARE VERY UNEDUCATED IN THE FACTS. These same people (generally undecuated, and unintellegence) that vote in politicans.

Stupid people make bad decisions and VOTE IN stupid people, who in in term make shitty laws, and more shitty decisons. If america educated is people better, it would have a much better government.

>>3611654
They like to keep things simple.

>>3611675


You keep talking about intelligence and education like they are interchangable.

Education: Do I think educated people are capable of making bad decisions? Absolutely. I think a lot of educated people make bad decisions. I think a lot of educated people have flawed values too.

Intelligence: If there was an objectively defined intelligence, and someone was perfectly intelligent, and being intelligent entailed you always knew the best decision, then yes I think intelligent people can make good decisions. But thats so hypothetical and abstract its nearly meaningless.

I go to a university by the way.

Anyway, Im leaving now.

>>3611726

Why do I get the feeling from your posts that you study some lame for of social "science"...

>>3611675

Define intelligence.

>>3611745
Define "define"

>>3611751

Don't go there.

>>3611654
The American system is fucking fine, and much better then a monarcy. You obvioulsy don't know shit, so let me lay it down for you.

In a real Monarcy: absolute rule by the royals. They make the laws and policies, tuff shit.

In America: anyone can go into politics, and get elected to office. Americans can therefore take an active part in there government, collectivly writing american laws and policy. The vast majority of top government official are elected by the people, so everyone essentially gets a say in "politics".

It is just up to americans to fucking "say" the right thing. It is no ones fault but there own, if they "say" stupid shit.

>>3611753
Don't say that.

>>3611767

Seriously, answer my question.

>>3611763
You're good.

>>3611763
There's no such thing as a "real" monarchy, what a ridiculous concept. Changing the way a political system works doesn't mean it is no longer that system.

The Magna Carta didn't stop England being under a monarchy. It changed how their monarchy worked.

>>3611763

It really comes down to who gets financed the most. To even get to a primary, you need large contributions from special interests. Sure, the end result is democratic, but its really a choice between some group of special interests, and another group of special interests. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET ELECTED.

WHICH BRINGS ME BACK TO MY ORIGINAL POINT

>>3611291

>>3611773
Define: To explain the meaning of a word.
If you need any of that defined, I would suggest you return to school. Back to it then.
Define: "intelligence".

>>3611816

Please do.

>>3611726
>Can't fucking grasp what I mean by Intellegence/Education, yet claims to be in university

It basically boils down to this: 1) critical thinking ability, 2) knowledge of relavent facts (informed).

An informed critical thinker usually makes better choices/decisons then an uninformed retard.

IT IS THAT FUCKING SIMPLE DUDE. I THINK YOU NEED TO SPEND MORE FUCKING TIME AT UNIVERSITY KID.

>>3611734
Nope. No Social Science for me bro.

>>3611827

Better how?

>>3611824
>Please do
No, I've already done something for you, so I will after you,
Define: intelligence

>>3611837

You invoked it's use. I'm asking for clarification.

>>3611837
the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills

>>3611847

that's a pretty fucking stupid definition. The point i was trying to make is that traditional concepts of intelligence are starting to fall under scientific scrutiny. So when you throw out the sentence "good decision" based on intelligence, you require context and a framework of intelligence to deal with. Your statement was incredibly ambiguous as best.

>>3611799
>It really comes down to who gets financed the most.

>To even get to a primary, you need large contributions from special interests.

Agreed, that is usually the case "now of days". And recently coportaions became "people" in america. However, WHOS FUCKING FAULT WAS THAT?

It wasn't always that fucking way you know. Somewhere down the fucking line, yall elected fucking retards, that make shit policies and shit laws, that begot more shit policies and shit laws, and now a vast majority of american politics is controlled by lobbies, and money.

Tons of other countries don't have this problem, they made better choices, elected better officials and prevented the kinda shit from happening! WHY THE FUCK DIDNT YOU AMERICA? WHY DID YOU LET THAT HAPPEN TO YOURSELF?

This is exactly what the fuck I am talking about. Yall (the citizens) fucked up your own country, by making terrible decsions and picking shitty canidates. Then you bitch that the system is broken, after ya'll broke it yourself.

How about ya'll educate yourself, and actually get out and fucking vote as an informed citizen for once? Instead of just being lead around like fucking monkeys throwing feces at eachother.

>>3611866
1) You are talking to the wrong person

2) I already clarified what I ment in >>3611827

3) Sorry I didn't dumb it down for you sooner. I expected the average poster to be able to understand the meaning of such a simple statement. You american?

>>3611914

I thought for a second there we got mixed up. Calm down, son.

>>3611895

>>3611895
Steps to make america great again

1) EDUCATE YOUR FUCKING PEOPLE

2) Repeat 1) as much as you fucking have to

All the problems you have/will have can be easily fixed with a smarter population, making better decisions. No more of this unintellectual, faux news, republican, anti-science, religious fundementalist bullshit.

Seriously, they average american doesnt even know the difference between basic political ideologies like "fascism" and "communism"? WTF? All they are taught is that "capatilism is king", and everything else is "muslim fascist atheist nazi evil". That is what your NEWS MEDIA TELLS YOUR PEOPLE! And you wonder why your country is going to shit.

>>3611970
Aren't fascism and capitalism the same thing?

>>3611970
What will happen:

1) America will get shittier, and stupider. The once great nation of ideas, pioneers, and inventions is no more. It is now a backwards ass piss-poor christian fundementalist nation (already starting to become one). They will continue to be totally ignorant to the reason for their shitty status.

2) China will be the world's lone super-power, for at least a few thousand years. It kinda actually already is.

>>3611895
Here the thing, I have always considered my self a bit of an independent, but the republicans have lost their collective fucking mind in the past couple of years.

John Kyl's "not intended to be a factual statement" defense or Newt Gingrich saying "any ad which quotes what I said on Sunday is a falsehood." should have been the last straw for everyone with brains in the republican party. I mean honestly what happened to the republican party?

>>3612015
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

>>3612011
You do realize that levels of religiosity are consistently declining in the United States, don't you? Stop assuming that you know everything about the situation of the U.S. because you heard it in your media. Guess what? American media isn't the only media that's full of shit. Just like you say that American media calls everything it doesn't like "communist" or "terrorist," British media, for instance, just calls everything it doesn't like "far-right" or "fundamentalist."

The only thing that stymies the trend of *decreasing* religiosity in the United States is sustained immigration from the more religious Mexico. Even then, Mexican immigrants tend to drift away from the Catholic church and become less religious within a generation.

In your tirade on education, you once again neglect the demographic reality. So does practically everyone who expostulates on the education issue. You won't even acknowledge that the situation of America is different from that in Europe, because it is taboo to talk about reality.

>>3612039
It's funny that most people don't know that Carlin was a huge Keith Olbermann fan and told him he has the best news show on television.