/sci/ - Science & Math

>>3600801
>>woman gets raped and becomes pregnant
hurr durr, we should let the baby live!
Really now, rapist babies only perpetuate the cycle.

>>3600801
> What magical factor makes this idea of humane treatment unavailable to a human fetus?
Lack of a mind.

For the majority of the first trimester, the fetus is, essentially, a fish. Past the first trimester, it would be kind of a dick thing to do to abort the fetus.

Also, not science.

I believe cute animals shouldn't suffer because watching a cute animal suffer is distressing to social primates such as us humans.

However I an unconcerned when an animal that I do not find physically attractive, such as an ant, fruit fly, crab, or bacterium suffers because my brain isn't as capable of empathizing with such a creature.

There, I just described 99.999999% of humans ever born.

>>3600812

You know they have brains...

>>3600823
>2011
>caring about something that hasn't contributed to society

>>3600824
You haven't described me. I care a great deal for arthropods and all manner of non-human life.

Mammals - yes in almost every case.
Birds - in most cases.
------------------------Everything below: no--------
Reptiles - no.
Invertebrates - no.
Fish - no.

The animals below the line cannot suffer because they lack the means. Therefore they deserve no type of special care imo.

fish have brains

so what?

>>3600833
Did I say 100%? No? Then shut up.

>>3600826
Early enough they do not have brains nor minds.

The closer an animal is to being human, the more humanely it should be treated.

So, primates certainly should be treated with the utmost care, then mammals in general should be humanely treated, but then once you go beyond to non-mammalian animals who gives a fuck?

Ultimately the goal of a life form is to survive at all costs, or else to at least preserve genetically similar species which can carry on our historic mission down the line. If we're all killed off I'd want to make sure the monkeys inherit our legacy. Or failing that, the dogs and cats. Maybe in a few million years they'll evolve into intelligent beings with spaceships.

>>3600843
birds are reptiles.

>>3600852

so you aren't above exploiting anything that you feel doesn't have a mind?

>>3600862
Pretty much. Also, you cannot exploit what does not have a mind.

To answer the last question OP: the fetus develops it's thalamic interface at around 26 weeks, that means before then it has conscious experience of external stimuli such as pain. That is the magical factor.

>>3600862
Define "exploit".

> How many of you believe animals should humanly treated?
Anyone who doesn't have some childhood trauma that they're overcompensating for by pretending to be a big tough desensitized ass hole believes that animals should be *humanely treated.
Frustrated jerk offs headed towards becoming life-long criminals believe otherwise.

>>3600852
A fetus has a brain, fucknut. It depends, of course, on the stage of development. A late stage fetus has a brain organized into the cortical layers responsible for higher level cognition and responds actively to its environment.

My own perspective is that the degree of protection conferred on a fetus should depend on how far development has progressed. Giving rights and protections to tiny balls or knots of cells is stupid. Giving no regard to a fully formed baby (yep, a baby) just because it hasn't yet been extruded out it's wretched mother's battered pussy is also ridiculous.

>>3600886
I think we're in agreement.

>>3600871
I think animals and anything above fish should be treated humanely because seeing animals suffer causes us emotional pain and therefore some degree of suffering. In that respect it is wrong to hurt lower animals but I just don't see any ethical implications concerning say the frog or fish its self that is being treated inhumanely.

>>3600859

LOL no.

>>3600830
By that logic, any human that will ever be born and ever has been born should have/be aborted.

3/10 for getting me to reply.

Is there a difference in sentience/consciousness between a newborn and an adult mouse?

When does a human actually become a person?

>>3600904
yes they belong to the reptile clade Archosauria.

>>3600843
are you basing this on observation of said creatures , or solid evidence? what are the parts of the brain needed to define "suffering" that reptiles down lack?
I'm fairly sure that most animals feel pain, what exactly seperates pain from suffering?
if i saw someone torturing a dog i would be appaled, the same with a bird or even a reptile. i start to get a bit apathetic at fish, but i feel a pang of empathy when i cant get the hook out of their mouth. not enough empathy to avoid taking up the hobby of putting hooks in their food for fun and dinner though.
i'm sure even ants feel pain, but i wouldn't call a kid a sociopath because he likes to burn them with a magnification lens.
what in fact are the real lines in nature between pain, suffering and reflex from a neurological perspective rather then what we imagine through empathy?

>>3600941
This in an amazing read:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/Fishwelfare/Rose.pdf

This is what I base my opinion on, I find it is very informed. It is based on the difference of pain and nociception. How fish and other lower animals lack the cognitive machinery to process and therefore consciously perceive noxious stimuli as the manifestation of pain.

This article is very concise and has a comprehensive overview complete with qualifying arguments and a long list of citations.

Check it out

>comparing adult organisms with compex brain activity to a blob of tissue

>>3600979
facinating to the say the least, thanks.
i once had an idea for fishing with lasers, but i never worked out the math for making it work so that wouldnt boil the water before it got to the fish. i gave up with idea however, when i though how it would be from the fishes perspective.

odd how fish hook is a more comfortable idea than a searing beam of light. i might now crack open than jar of worms again despite that i'm sure its quite illegal/impractical.

"humane treatment" is the concept of attributing the sense of pain to non-humans, and acting to prevent it. i don't know if human fetuses have the ability to sense pain, but if they do, you might be on to something.

magical factor = power, control, money, and the ability to

some pro-choice has merit, some pro-life has merit, but ultimately its not going to be my choice if a woman gets an abortion

Not all animals are human but all humans are animals.

I don't think most animals should be humanly treated. It's why I would be outraged if humans were being round up, confined, and systematically slaughtered but not when cows are.

Being 9 months old.

>>3600824
so there are only ~70 people that fall outside of your definition

We only treat people and certain animals "humanly" because we are trained to.

Animals that are not humans are not human.

Animals that are not parasites should be treated humanely. Live comfortably, killed painlessly etc.

A fetus cannot survive outside of the mother's body. Thus it is a parasite and the mother can kill it however she pleases.

>>3601333
Kill it, it cannot survive on its own.

>>3601333
a baby can't survive outside the body either, and it wasn't brought on without the consent of the woman, in the same way I can't expect to rob people without being caught and imprisoned.

> How many of you believe animals should humanly treated?

I do.

> What magical factor makes this idea of humane treatment unavailable to a human fetus?

Presence of sentience. You cannot treat a bunch of cells inhumanely. Kiling late-term fetuses, on the other hand, is the same as killing born babies, IMHO.

This is also the opinion of US population, where majority of people do not want to ban abortion, but want to ban late-term abortions. Think about that when someone tries to push conception or birth as the limit.

>man punches hes woman in stomach
>she has a miscarriage
>his crime is murder

>woman gets preggos
>gets abortion
>totally legal

What determines if it is a living human being is a woman. If its not human it should just be assault, and if said baby is to be paid for by the government forcing child support isn't that child a parasite on the father?

Ultimately abortion is just a way for women to not be responsible for her actions, men of course support this because they've been programmed to protect women even when they murder something, because we see women as victims more than anything.

>man punches hes woman in stomach
>she has a miscarriage
>his crime is murder

Actually, not necessarily. In about half of US states, it would be only assault against the woman.

I do believe that this should be made consistent with abortion limit, tough.

>>3601357
>This is also the opinion of US population, where majority of people do not want to ban abortion, but want to ban late-term abortions.
Yep, this seems true both from personal observations and statistics.

>Think about that when someone tries to push conception or birth as the limit.
It seems like all the vocal politicians push one or the other. I'm not sure why. I guess it has the same origin as other aspects of political "polarization" where an issue becomes concentrated around two opposing camps, even when there is an obvious middle ground that actually corresponds to majority opinion. It's almost comical how that you *never* hear the actual majority opinion on the issue, as though it has somehow become taboo to state what most people actually believe is the best course. Go figure.

Of course.
Me.
None, fetuses have equal rights.

>>3600903
> When does a human actually become a person?

When it is an individual living organism and not a parasitic entity supported by the host.

For humans, this means birth.

As far as abortion goes, it means until the umbilical is severed, it is not a human being.

>>3601357
> This is also the opinion of US population, where majority of people do not want to ban abortion, but want to ban late-term abortions. Think about that when someone tries to push conception or birth as the limit.

An opinion reached almost wholly by emotional appeal. Late-term fetuses look human and people think of them as babies inside the mother instead of a parasitic group of cells living off the host organism. Not that public opinion doesn't matter, but it should be put into relevant context.

>>3602203
only a retard would consider reproduction parasitic.

>>3602220
How is it fundamentally any different? Both serve the explicit goal of disseminating genes.

>>3602241
Because on disseminates the genes of the "host" organism, since the woman is only a temporary vehicle for genes, it give her genes a fresh vehicle a child is not at the expense of her genes, a parasite is.

>What magical factor makes this idea of humane treatment unavailable to a human fetus?

It's not magic. There just isn't enough of a brain for it to feel pain. You might as well demand humane treatment for nematodes and fruit flies.

>>3600843
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/2983045.stm

You are a tard.

>>3602248
It's at the expense of half of her genes, too.

A parasite is any organism that uses the host as a living environment. We have good parasites, too. But they are still parasites.

>animals are non human
Yes

>animals should be humanely treated
I don't believe there exists a consistent enough of definition of humane, but I do think there are certain guidelines which should alter behavior with an organism to maximize desired outcome.

>humane treatment of a fetus
I don't think humans should be treated humanely, if you are referring to the forced application of deadly effects.

>>3600801

in the immortal words of Dr. Koop:

"When it comes to preventing abortion, Right to Lifers ARE the problem."

Abortion is never necessary to save a woman’s life. Four hundred and eighty physicians have signed a public declaration stating: “I agree that there is never a situation in the law or in the ethical practice of medicine where a preborn child’s life need be intentionally destroyed by procured abortion for the purpose of saving the life of the mother.”

Source: American Life League. Declaration: Protecting the Life of the Mother. http://all.org/article.php?id=10682.. abortion facts

>>3602490
>Abortion is never necessary to save a woman’s life.
What. This is absolutely false. Your argument is going to hinge on how "necessary" it is. There are pregnancies which put the mother at considerable risk.

>>3602428

Their goal is to punish what they perceive as sexual immorality. This becomes obvious when you see the spectrum of policies they put forward. If they spent half the effort on promoting sex education as they do on attempting to ban abortions, they would prevent far, far more abortions from ever happening.

I can get on board with a Hitchens-esque opposition to abortion. But no part of me can consider a first trimester fetus to be invested with that quality which would make ending it's life a murder. It's more like pulling the plug, a regrettable and sad decision, but nobodies business but the relevant parties, and certainly nothing like murder.

>>3602496
I'm sorry, I didn't realise you had more knowledge than the 480 physicians who said otherwise.

http://www.whyprolife.com/

>>3602502
Because the more people agree on it, the more truth value it obtains.

Biology is clear that at conception, also known as fertilization, a unique organism comes into existence. Since this new life possesses human DNA and is the offspring of human parents, it can only legitimately be described as human life.
Since there is no question that human zygotes, embryos and fetuses are alive, some have attempted to claim that human beings are not “persons” until some threshold is crossed, such as viability, the capacity to feel pain, birth, or even the first year after birth. The merits of such notions could be debated, but it should be clear that they are not based on science but rather on ideology, philosophy, or belief.
As far as observable science is concerned, human life begins at conception.
Source: Condic, Maureen, MD. When Does Human Life Begin? A Scientific Perspective. The Westchester Institute for Ethics and the Human Person. http://www.westchesterinstitute.net/images/wi_whitepaper_life_print.pdf..

>When does an Embryo’s Heart Begin to Beat?
An embryo’s heart begins to beat between 18-24 days after conception.
Source: Clowes, Brian, PhD. 2001. The Facts of Life. Front Royal: Human Life International.
>When can an embryo’s brain waves be detected?
An embryo’s brain waves can be detected six weeks after conception.
Source: Clowes, Brian, PhD. 2001.

These are facts that baby murderers want to keep hidden.

>>3602502
You seriously telling me that there are no medical conditions that put the mother at serious risk? Because I'll demolish you on that point if you want.

>>3602508
Biological life, yes.
Mental life, lol no.

In order to try to justify the taking of an innocent life, the pro-choice movement often attempts to use certain phrases to dehumanize the preborn child. One of the most bewildering of these is the term “blob of cells.”

Those who are pro-choice are entitled to their own opinion, but not their own set of facts. As much as they might wish that the preborn was some lifeless being, medical research has revealed a far different picture.

First, there is a clear consensus within the medical community that human life begins at conception [1]. Additionally, it has been found that a preborn baby is able to feel pain as early as 8 weeks after conception [2].

While the capability to feel pain can never legitimately be used as a criterion for whether or not it is acceptable to take a human life (it is no more acceptable to kill a person in their sleep), most people agree that causing tremendous pain and suffering is especially cruel.

One of the main reasons that abortion is allowed to continue is because so many people are not made aware of who the target of the abortion actually is. It is a living, growing being who is often already capable of feeling pain.

The lives of the unborn deserve the utmost protection we can give them.

Would you have wanted anything less for yourself at that age?

——–

References

[1] Condic, Maureen, MD. (2008).”When Does Human Life Begin? A Scientific Perspective.” The Westchester Institute for Ethics and the Human Person. http://www.westchesterinstitute.net/images/wi_whitepaper_life_print.pdf..

[2] Clowes, Brian, PhD. (2001). “The Facts of Life.” Front Royal: Human Life

>>3602490
Wow, a whole four hundred and eighty?

>>3602514
No, but all these conditions can be resolved without murdering the unborn baby.

>>3602518
That's 480 people far more qualified than you are. If you were better educated you'd understand.

>Why should a Woman have to Give Birth to an Unwanted Child?

While there are unwanted pregnancies, there truly are no unwanted children. Even if a pregnant woman does not want to raise the child growing in her womb, someone else does. There are many more couples seeking to adopt than children available for adoption.

But even if a child were “unwanted,” it would still be wrong to kill that child for not being wanted—just as it would be wrong to kill a child already born if her mother decided she no longer wanted her.

Moreover, no woman really wants to have an abortion. An unwanted abortion is no solution to an unwanted pregnancy.

>>3602517
You're intentionally abusing the term "human life". I can scrape some cells off my arm and would be semantically correct calling it human life because it contains human DNA. The actual problem is determining when "human life" becomes a "human being". An egg fused with sperm is obviously human life, but it is also obviously NOT a human person.

>>3602521
You mean, that's 479 more than him.

480 - 1 = 479

>>3602523
No, you are intentionally misusing the term fetus to dehumanise what is a living human.

"“Fetus” is a Latin term meaning “little one”, used to describe a stage of development, just like “infant” or “adult”. A fetus conceived by human parents, and growing according to the instructions in its own genetic code of 46 human chromosomes, is by definition human.

Human life is a continuum, beginning with the newly conceived zygote, moving through the stages of embryo and fetus on through to adult. Although a fetus doesn’t look like an adult yet, neither does a newborn baby. A human fetus is no less human simply because it is smaller and more delicate.

For that matter, neither is an embryo less human, though it looks quite strange to our eyes, even in comparison to a fetus. Still, it is our duty to recognize the common humanity of all stages of development."

>>3602521
You're entire argument here is a fallacy (Argument from Authority). Being a doctor doesn't mean that someone is a smart doctor. Look at Michael Behe, that stupid asshole got a PhD in biochemistry and he is one of the dumbest motherfuckers that have ever lived.

Having a degree doesn't mean that this person will put professional knowledge ahead of personal beliefs.

>>3602520
>No, but all these conditions can be resolved without murdering the unborn baby.
There are pregnancies which have a chance of being viable, but not without putting the mother at serious risk. Usually because of a medical condition in the mother.

>>3602528
Point out where in my post I used the word fetus. Address the problem of "human life" vs "human person" instead of building a strawman.

>>3602538
Your arm won't grow into an independent life, capable of feeling pain but an unborn baby will if we give it a chance.

We can detect the brainwaves of an unborn baby just 6 weeks after they are conceived.

>>3602545
Are you OK with the morning-after pill?

>>3602517

At the age before I came into existence, I wanted nothing. And I wish nothing for myself at an age at which I did not exist.

I did not exist before I was conceived. So I have no compelling opinion on whether my parents should have performed actions that led to my conception. I did not exist before my brain could hold something like a mind. So I have no compelling opinion about how the pre-mindful stage of my life should have been treated.

Between around the second trimester and birth, or even childhood, or even adulthood, or even death; there is a huge grey area. How do I know which point does a person become a full person, or at which point I first become me as I am now? I don't know for certain. But I can tell when there is no grey area. And that is when there is nothing going on in the brain that could be considered a mind. When you are brain-dead, or when you are an early term fetus.

Now, just as I would not want someone to pull the plug on my brain-dead relative, I would not want someone to kill my unborn child. But if I make the informed decision to pull the plug when the doctors have told me there is no hope, or to terminate the pregnancy before the end of the first trimester, then it is my decision alone.

>>3602551
Of course not. Apart from the fact you are robbing an unborn child of a life it harms the mother and evidence of this has been kept quiet by pharma giants, more interested in making money than protecting our children.

>>3602567
>part from the fact you are robbing an unborn child
All of your arguments about brain-waves and shit are irrelevant here. And by this stance, you are also against IVF, which routinely requires that some zygotes not be implanted successfully.

> it harms the mother and evidence of this has been kept quiet by pharma giants, more interested in making money than protecting our children.
Tell me about vaccines and autism next.

>>3602586 Tell me about vaccines and autism next.
That's just unscientific crap, this is real, like how Eli Lilliy promoted the shit out of Zyprexa when they knew it was dangerous.

>>3602490

Ectopic pregnancy.
Case close.

>>3602599
We now have advanced enough techniques to keep babies alive when they develop in this way. Why should we murder them?

>>3602610

Nope. A few isolated cases where both mother and child miraculously survived does not mean that we know how to reliably treat this condition.

If the fetus is not aborted, then both mother and child will die.

Also it's not murder.

>>3602610
>We now have advanced enough techniques to keep babies alive when they develop in this way. Why should we murder them?
LOLWUT

You can't reimplant a zygote that has implanted outside of the uterus already.

bump

>mfw "fetus is a parasite" argument used in this thread

>>3602513

>We can detect the brainwaves of an unborn baby just 6 weeks after they are conceived.

Medfag here. Bullshit. This is a pro-life porpaganda piece debunked long ago, I hope you are just a troll, otherwise get out of my /sci.

http://eileen.250x.com/Main/Einstein/Brain_Waves.htm

Brain waves appear after 20-22 weeks of fetal development. Its physiologically impossible for functioning brain to exist in the first trimester.