/sci/ - Science & Math

I think you're either dead or you're not. If your brain is still working, you're not dead.

>>3601620
Oh and to add, if your brain isn't working,you can't store memories, so you wouldn't remember if you retained consciousness while dead.

The brain goes haywire when subject to stress.

It is not so amazing that you would see some wacky shit when you breathe your last breath as the chemicals in your brain are in a different state to how they have been for your entire life. And it aint dead. When your dead you don't see shit.

>>3601613
Death is lack of experience or consciousness.
NDE's would be altered states of consciousness where a brain is dieing or when it's being "rebooted" back to life.
I don't give it any religious connotations. If you want to get an idea of what a likely true religion would be (not popular religion), you must use a lot of inductive and deductive reasoning applied on what you know of physical reality and more generally math and logic - it looks a lot like philosophy, only more rigurous in its search.

Homeostasis is failing while a person is dying and the brain loses control of its chemical signals, which will cause an altered state of consciousness. The person is not yet dead at that point. Once they are actually dead they will experience nothing.

If you look at it from a biblical point of view, it's bull because it says people just die. The ones who enter Heaven do so alive. Everyone else just dies, and if you're Christian, get resurrected to live on Earth again. If you're Jewish, you just become dust/go to Sheol. Sucks for you.

Either way, people who imagine going to Heaven are full of it.

For other religions, they probably see different things anyway, but are most likely also full of it.

Probably a combination of seeing floaters and recalling memories. Basically semi-dreaming.

>>3601622
Belief.

>>3601623
Belief.

>>3601631
Belief.

Is this a religious board or something?
What is this with all those self-ordained Priest Of The Science Doctrine?
What happened to the open-minded skepticism that defines true science?

>>3601651

Science is based on making conclusions based on sets of knowledge. If
-all our knowledge otherwise indicates that there is no afterlife
-we know that our brain can, under great stress, induce hallucinations of any type/form
-near death puts the brain under great stress

Whats the logical conclusion? I of course believe that its simply a result of the stress on the brain, however that doesn't imply, with certainty, that that is the case. It could be that "our soul" is leaving the body and going to heaven/hell/whatever, however there is little to no evidence to support that, and unless we can produce evidence which does, discussing this is a moot point.

>>3601631

That's interesting, btw can homeostasis produce a complex experience?
Also, what if the event is "happening" during a flat EEG?

>>3601628
I said that ironically because some people seems to not be able to separate the views of this kind of subjects from religion.
I'm essentially atheist, but I hate when some people refuse to investigate just writing it off like religious do when talking about pro-evolution arguments.

>>3601646
>Witness thousands upon thousands of converging people's testimonies on a specific altered state of consciousness
> Conclude that they are all full of it.
> Thinks he is being scientific
> 2011

>>3601651
Everything you said is belief so you're wrong.

I find it very interesting that the human body loses 21 grams of weight upon death.

Aside from that, I really don't know. It's all speculation.

>>3601659
>discussing this is a moot point.
Ok.

Let's just be glad that in the past some people deemed it worthwhile to discuss points that were both seemingly absurd and totally out of the belief system of the times.

There was a study that said that people who had NDE whilst trying to commit suicide were less likely to try commit suicide again then people who did not witness a NDE of any kind. Is it possibly a defense mechanism against death? I.e. if you burn yourself once on a stove and feel pain, you won't do it again and will fear the stove enough to not do it?

NDE pretty much proves the Christian faith. Everyone has Christian-related NDE (White tiles, heavenly light, angel chorus) from any background. Most who have them become born again Christians.

>>3601659
> -all our knowledge otherwise indicates that there is no afterlife
I would say that's unknowable, but given certain ontologies you can show that an afterlife is possible. I could elaborate on this, and show that even given a fairly "materialistic" viewpoint, one can still concieve a concept of Heaven which is not impossible, but even somewhat likely (if you accept a few innocuous-looking premises that enough scientists and philosophers assume likely true). If you want to stay fully popperian without going into unfalsifiable territory, you just suspend belief on the existence of an afterlife.
>-we know that our brain can, under great stress, induce hallucinations of any type/form
> -near death puts the brain under great stress
That just means we experience some unusual qualia/states of consciousness when near-death (and maybe after being rebooted). I wouldn't take it as an evidence of an afterlife.

>>3601683

Except people who aren't christian

>>3601683
They're experiencing what they're expecting. If they're expecting death, they're expecting to go to their version of heaven.

I can guide my dreams to some degree and thus I can dream what I want to some degree - that doesn't make my dreams any more true. I had dream last night where I somehow ended up in a different MWI branch and it all seemed so real (from my dream perspective which was just saying it was very 'real'), I was so damn surprised that something I considered impossible has happened that I started frantically collecting evidence of the impossible things I did in the dream (while in the dream). I had a good laugh about it as soon as I woke up. It was a fun dream at least.

>>3601694
> they're expecting to go to their version of heaven.


Nope. Even non-christians have christian NDA's.

>>3601697
>christian NDA
>he thinks lights are christian

>>3601679

A self-defense mechanism needs a lot stimuli during generations and time to be develop (ex. legs from fishes -> amphibians -> reptiles), am I wrong?

I think that the development of such anti-suicide system is a little unprobable.

>>3601700

>implying a white tunnel, angels, singing, and heaven as described in the bible is not Christian

>>3601631
>measurable neurotransmitter flooding into inter-synaptic space and consequent uptake is a matter of faith

Have you ever herped so much that you derped?

>>3601704
>white tunnel
>angels
>singing
>heaven
>he think those are only in Christianity
>r u umerikan?

>>3601708

Are they in Buddhism?
Hinduism?

Then why are people from that having those NDA's and flocking to chirstianity? About 50 million hindus/buddhists are year are becoming catholics/protestants. Gods word is spreading :) Korea has already gone Christian, India and China are next!

>>3601704
> >implying a white tunnel, angels, singing, and heaven as described in the bible is not Christian
It doesn't say anything of angels and singing in the NDE article.
Either way, I don't think NDEs imply afterlife. If a heaven does exist, the movement is instantaneous - whatever being made "heaven" just copies your mind pattern before you're dead/too damaged and instantiates it in its "heaven". No "going back" there, except maybe if you decide to commit suicide (if heaven is not to your likely, it would be immoral to force you to 'live' in it), in which case you would stop existing, well, unless there is another plausible continuation for your existence... ahahaha. ha.

>>3601710
>confirmed for umerikans
>yes they are in Hinduism and Buddhism (no, they're not "a religion" by your Abrahamic standards)

millions of people convert to Islam every year, so fucking what?

>>3601719
>millions of people convert to Islam every year

Not really. Born into it. Christian conversions outnumber muslim ones massively.

>>3601710
>>3601719

The world is full of fools, and btw that doesn't mean anything.
Now stop that pathetic trolling attempt.

>>3601727

Ad hominem. try again.

>>3601727

forgot to say but obvious, the last phrase is referred only to >>3601710

>>3601710

The world is full of fools, and btw that doesn't mean anything.
Now stop that pathetic trolling attempt.

>>3601741
Ad hominem. try again.

Also, work on getting your posts right first time so I don't have to repost.

>>3601745

Ad-hominem is a logical fallacy wherein a personal attack is used as a substitute for an argument.

It is not ad-hominem to express disdain for a person, nor for a comment where no substantial argument has been made.

Nor is it ad-hominem to express disdain in addition to making an argument.

When you make an unsubstantiated claim and someone calls you a faggot, it is probably because you are a faggot.

When you attempt to draw negative attention away from your faggotry by whinging about ad-hominem and someone still calls you a faggot, it is because you are a faggot of the highest order.

Just FYI

>>3601754

Whatever. It's attacking me, not addressing my points anyway.

Not a single person has posted a single reputable source to dispute what I've said.

>>3601754

>Calls him a troll instead of an argument

That's exactly what Ad-hominem is you total retard.

>>3601756

That's probably because you must first substantiate your claim, but have failed to do so.

>>3601761

Which claims? All can be found on a simple google search, And I'd be happy to do so as it's easily obtainable information.

>>3601759

Read the second sentence again:
>It is not ad-hominem to express disdain for a person, nor for a comment where no substantial argument has been made.
>nor for a comment where no substantial argument has been made.

>>3601765

It's your opinion then, as an argument has been made in many many posts, stop trying to cover your ass.

>>3601759
No, it isn't. An ad hominem means to insult someone and imply that that counts as an argument. It is specifically a syllogism of the form

1. X is [insult].
2. If X is [insult], X is wrong.
Therefore,
3. X is wrong.

accusing someone of ad hominem as soon as they insult you AT ALL is pompous aside from being a misuse of the term. The proper response is to ignore the abuse and address only their arguments. Not the guy you quoted.

>>3601745

ad hominem for what?

can you please explain to me why do most of these people converts?

And can you show me, considering the converted in developing countries, what's their usual condition?
Maybe I used the wrong word. There are people among them that are not fools, but just in a situation that make them easy to manipulate. And I'm talking about the converted in any religion founded on proselytism.

I don't know any neuroscience. But I don't think you need to know any to see that the idea of a soul, separate from the body, contradicts modern science.

Although, I guess that really only applies to a soul that's active, ie influences your actions. A soul that's passive and just acts as a screen onto which brain information can be projected isn't so ridiculous. But then, if a soul like that experienced an NDE, in which it's suggested that it left the body and looked at the world from above, or saw a tunnel of light, how did that information become stored in the brain, so that the patient could recall it upon waking up? That would suggest an active soul, which contradicts our premises.

>>3601756

What reputable source have you posted for these claims: >>3601683
>>3601704


The funny thing is that I opened this thread hoping to talk about it in a reasonable way, but finally I was right when writing that final "inb4" statement.

>>3601769
>an argument has been made in many many posts

Humor me, then. Demonstrate them along with their substantiation.

Yawn. Find me a single reputable source that denies what I said. I'm waiting. (and will be for a long time).

>>3601697
>non-christian
>Christian NDE

Every one that has a different view point than Christianity, or some, don't completely believe there is no god...I believe there's always going to be some possibility since you can't disprove what you can't see. Those non-christians, in a moment of fear and hallucination, I presume, self doubted there current belief, from fear ongoing to hell.- just a theory.

>>3601811

Odd theory, as even those in the past long ago have stories written. Peasants in china centuries ago having such heavenly visions with no knowledge of christ and his good word whatsoever.

>>3601805

Until you can corroborate what you've said with verifiable evidence, that is wholly unneccessary.

Or rather, the denial is a simple as your lack of evidence.

You've given no one any reason to take you seriously.

>>3601815

I suppose that's a valid excuse for google failing you, therefore you are unable to find anything to challenge me. Yawn. You guys are weak.

>>3601817

At the end of our rope, are we?

>>3601805

Yeah. Like that invisible dragon in the garage am I right?

>still pretends to not be a troll

>>3601822
>>3601819

Still searching, are we? I can wait. you won't find anything reputable, give up.

>>3601817
Why do you need a 'source' to support your opinions? You can see the evidence against the notion of NDEs for yourself.

>>3601817

Fuck, I make I claim I provide my links.

If you can't bother to provide your links, then we can't bother to take you seriously.

Burden of proof lies on the one making the positive claim. It's not our job to build your case for you. If you can't do that then take your game of pigeon chess elsewhere.

>>3601828
>>3601827

I thought as much. Looks like we are done here, you are not going to provide even a link ti disapprove me. Enjoy living your lie.

>>3601831

Of course I'll keep on living my life, especially knowing that if you ever tried this type of antics in any scientific institution, you'd get your ass laughed out in no time flat.

Enjoy you're hollow pseudo-victory.

It's just the release of DMT.
Which usually gives religious-like experiences. But not always angels.

ok the thread can be now considered defeated by trolling.

Here's lunch time, I'm outta here.

See you later.

Here are two, if you need a person of authority to support all your opinions that badly, but they're not going to say much more than what's been said in this thread.

http://www.ukskeptics.com/the-dying-brain.php

http://lnco.epfl.ch/files/content/sites/lnco/files/shared/publications/lnco/2009_Dieguez_NC(chap)_le
aving%20body%20and%20life%20behind-out%20of%20body%20and%20near%20death%20experience.pdf

You can get to more through the citations.

>>3601613
who be dat?