/sci/ - Science & Math

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/DEBT_016_xml.pdf

OP here

>open to engage your inner rage mode

reported for anti-semitism

problem americans?

>>3493253
Dude, way too much reading. Give us the gist of it.

American education has always been shit.

>>3493257


wat

oh, wait, that is right you are part of the demographic that is
>15 years old and in high school

>reported for underage b&

>>3493257

a cunning troll, made me think. 6/10 but not mad.

As much as I want to know about this, I really don't want to fucking read through that whole document to verify your claims, OP. Find it, cite it, and show us. Then your thread can get going

>>3493261


starting july 2012 grad students must pay interest while still in school

>as a biochemistry major in undergrad, i imagine i will be in the fucking lab all the time for grad school, where will i have time to work? I want to focus on the lab for my grad work and not worry about fucking money

>>3493272

page 71 to the end of the pdf is where it is located

>>3493245
too bad no one educated them

>>3493263

agreed if you are discussing public high schools...but....congress is taking aim at grad schools!

>>3493277

[citation needed]
[citation needed]
[citation needed]
[citation needed]
[citation needed]

I almost believe you OP, please just pull a quote from whatever source you need and then cite it.

>>3493287

Never mind, thanks. Sorry for being an ass.

>>3493277
sauce...plz...

:[

>>3493294

read page 71 to the end

it is also being reported here:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/01/students-to-feel-pinch-in-debt-deal/

>>3493308

American here. I really really really want to move to Europe. I'm studying German as fast as I can. The thing is I'm doing Pharmacy School shortly and I heard that this is totally country-dependent. As in, my American PharmD won't mean shit in Europe.

What should I do?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2011-08-01-pell-grants-college-graduates_n.htm

>Still a few years away from my English BA (yeah that's right, English, fuck you)
>Will probably see no teaching jobs in the next decade because of this debt compromise
>Now starting Japanese to be a gaijin teacher
>Will flourish outside of this shitty economy
>idontwanttoliveinthiscountryanymore.jpg

>>3493308

Thanks for citing that.

Goddamnit... pic related, it's me right now

Does anyone know how the market for physicists is outside of the U.S.? How about Western Europe or Canada?

>>3493277
>starting july 2012 grad students must pay interest while still in school

What the fuck.

"The idea is that the money saved by the student loan cuts would help pay to keep Pell Grants, which so far are maintained at a maximum grant of $5,500 a year for some 8 million poor students."

Utilitarianism my friend

As much as I hate Ayn Rand...

Atlas Shrugged, anyone?

>>3493308
>Welcome to SHARED SACRIFICE kiddies!! You are being asked to do YOUR part. Now stop whining and take a part time job. Welcome to the real world you spoiled little brats!
>mfw

Man, I thought things were bad before. The country will continue to crumble into a heap of uneducated shit, unable to compete internationally in science or economics.

pro tip: avoid student loans

>not having an America-escape plan
>2011

wait, you guys dont get 30k a year stipends from your graduate schools?

>>3493336

Yeah right. A utilitarian approach is to get as many people as possible cheap uni education by taxing the fuck out of the rich.

>>3493342

shut the fuck up! go work your ass off in a lab for 8 hours a day working on your research and then go work on top of 4 to 6 hours of outside daily independent reading/research

please go fuck off to a tea party rally where you belong

Think it's time to start looking for life outside of the states.

What is the job market like in the rest of the world?

I'm looking at Canada, Europe, and Japan.

>>3493352

some people do, some people don't, having it doesn't make you better or worse

>>3493343
>The country will continue to crumble into a heap of uneducated shit, unable to compete internationally in science or economics.

Pretty much, people will get dumber until eventually the country elects one of the far right religious candidates who turns it into a theocratic shithole like the Middle East

>>3493370

the sad thing is he is right . gif

>mfw Eurofags in here think they'll be immune to the effects of this

>>3493370

Read "Revolt in 2100" by Heinlein.

2012, america elects a certain Reverend Nehemier Scudder....

Be very afraid.

>Grad students have to pay interest in school
>Undergrad pell grants continue existing
Still shitty, but better than you made it out to be.

I had a history teacher in high school who told us that he could sell one aircraft carrier and put the whole nation's graduating class (over 3 million kids) through college for 4 years.

>>3493382

Let's sell it to Iraq

>mfw sand, nothing but sand

>>3493277
OH WOW. OH FUCKING WOW. You Americans sure got fucked HARD up the ass. Shit nigger. That's got to hurt. That's like That's like a fucking baseball bat up there. Oh shit...

I'm really starting to hate this country.

>>3493382
he is exaggerating, but the sad thing is that with "small" cuts in defense spending (as related to % of the total budget) we could drown our schools in money.

but there are issues that go deeper, and i think that we need more institutional change to fix things than our form of government is able to do.

>>3493382
can i put i ton my credit card? like that one southpark episode?

>2011
>believing baby boomers are capable of using logic and reason instead of being intolerant, God fearing cavemen

I seriously hope you guys don't do this. Look at the bright side, soon they'll all retire and we can have jobs again... to pay for their retirement that they're going to all of a sudden want again.

>>3493342
I don't think it would be possible for me to rage harder at this unless I saw the person who posted this.

I am disgraced to be an American. I really, really fucking am.

>>3493394

I figured he was exaggerating (just did the math, 3.2M x $30,000, on average of course). But how much do we "officially" spend on defense each year? 700 billion dollars? Which means it's actually in the trillions with all the shady shit going on. I agree, we have more problems than our current form of government can fix.

I don't have cable (can't afford it, lol SPOILED COLLEGE STUDENT HERE!), is this seeing any outrage on the 24 hour news channels, or is it a "swept under the rug" sort of thing?

Also, it can have that part cut out when it goes to the senate, right? Right?

>>3493424

The Senate will most likely amend that part to make it even worse than it is. Remember, 66 Senators out of the 100 are millionaires.

Here's the kicker

>Must now pay interest while in graduate school
>Payment requires you to have money
>Requires you to have job to earn money
>No jobs

America.. never change.. flawless logic.
Califag here. 11% unemployment is great.

Why does this matter for science grad students? If you're paying tuition for a science PhD, you shouldn't be doing a PhD

>>3493415

weallknowthatfeel.jpg

>>3493435

lol you obviously dont understand how these things work

>>3493375

>mrw i got a Masters degree in geology from Harvard then promptly emigrated to Australia, leaving behind over $100,000 in debt and loans that the government will never be able to get back off me because I'm no longer residing in the US.

>>3493457

>mfw i have the same plan

please elaborate, how is it working out exactly?

>>3493457

Fuck dude. I'm thinking I'll do the same thing, except maybe go to New Zealand. Or Spain.

>>3493457
How the hell would I go about doing this

>>3493432

The thing is, if you're in a graduate program in a field where you're not being paid to be there, then it's nonessential. All the sciences work like that. We get PAID to study because of the essential nature of the positions to advancing the country and, on the level of a university, increasing the prestige of an institution by improving their research output in significant areas. This will affect science students, too, of course, but it won't be nearly as bad as you claim. The ones it will really hurt will be terminal masters programs in things like business or engineering. Of course, most people in fields outside of the sciences don't really require that much time in set hours and if you actually ask around I think in any college town you'll find a number of grad students working at restaurants and cafe's. They just won't be the science grad students.

Engineers in PhD programs tend to get the same funding stuff those of us in the pure sciences do, but anyone going for a masters in Engineering is likely to get hosed by this. It's unfortunate, but it's really not so dire as everyone in this thread is making out to be.

>>3493457
>>3493462
>>3493463
>>3493469

inb4 brain drain from the usa

im ok with this . avi

i am seriously considering this . bitmap

please do tell yee who have knowledge of this topic!

>>3493457

Unless you're willing to go to a country the US has less friendly relations with, I think you're kidding yourself in thinking that they couldn't get at you if they wanted to.

>>3493479

>move to russia

>work for gazprom after getting phd in geology

profit!11!!?

>>3493462

I'm currently doing survey work f the Chinese who bought enormous land rights for iron ore. Judging by the results so far, there's gotta be over 100M tonnes of decent ore in the area I'm in alone and I've only covered ~15% of the area.

>>3493463

Down under somewhere is the best bet. Its far enough away from the rest of the world for both countries to basically ignore every other country and government here is pseudo social democracy. Not perfect, but it works.

Been here 3 years, not paid a cent for my education and I've got a beach babe as a wife. Life is awesome.

>>3493435

Exactly. What I've always heard is that if you were accepted somewhere without complete financial package with tuition remission and the like, you weren't actually accepted. It's like they're offering to rent you lab space.

>>3493457
With the shithole the U.S. is finding itself in, I wouldn't be overly surprised if they hired bounty hunters to start tracking down defaulters like you.

>America has huge expenditures
>cuts education
>brain drain
>America falls behind technologically
>can't compete, financial collapse
>third world country

Of all the things to cut, why education?

Why not pull our troops out of the three foreign "police actions" that are hemorrhaging money?

>>3493500
Because that could cost either party...political points?

How about bringing all those troops home to an already 10% unemployment rate?

I don't pretend to understand these things, I do science.

>>3493490

Why would they need to? The US has extradition treaties with Australia, and assuming here's there on a valid visa, it's not like he's hiding. I'm also assuming he didn't bother to surrender his citizenship, which makes it even easier for them to collect, as US nations abroad are technically liable for some taxes (though for most people it ends up getting knocked down to 0, the IRS does go over your income and shit) and the normal rules apply to delinquent payments.

>>3493500
Devil's advocate position: "We need the oil, and we're way too overcommitted in other countries."

My reply: "Divert a few billion into a new manhattan project for the new nuclear reactors, specifically the molten salt reactor. Lose dependence on foreign oil. Be awesome isolationist again."

This could have been a lot worse guys, they could have outright eliminated the loans and grants. (we all know that they could have got the money from defense but we also all know that won't ever happen)

This only hurts at all because the interest is based on our ridiculously expensive education.

Then again I have no intention of continuing my education while in this country to begin with.

>>3493508

That should be US nationals.

Also, if he's in Australia illegally, don't think he won't get deported. There's been a big problem of Americans going to foreign countries on travel visas and not leaving. My roommate did a study abroad thing in the UK and he was required to prove that he was on a lease and provide other financial incentives for him to return to the US to prevent against this. Australia has the problem, too, and the governments are cracking down on it.

Fuck this. I was going to study science and become a grad student, I think i'm just going to study accounting or something now...

>>3493526

I don't really have a problem with this.

I'm only planning for a BA while in the United States. Soon there after I'll be looking for citizenship in another country and finishing my MBA/PhD, and perhaps even another degree somewhere else. US turned into a giant fucking disaster and will only get worse via the incompetence leading this country. I'll come back when they get their shit together.

I have loans from my Master's degree, now I'm starting my PhD. FUCK. I don't want to pay 3-4 years of interest on my loans....

So, my plan all along was to get my BE in Electrical Engineering, then do one of two things:

-Get a terminal M.S. in EE or related field (Not sure whether to do the 5 year combined BE/MS at my school, or apply to a better school for a better MS)

-Work for 3-4 years in industry and get an MBA at the best university I can get accepted at

Either one of these seems like it'd be affected. Shit.

man I really do feel bad for you guys
your education system just gets worse and worse

Has anyone thought of emigrating to another country? I wonder how hard is it to get into Canada or France?

Fuck this country.

Fucking shitty thing is, we're not going to do a god damn thing about it. Remember a few months ago (somewhere in europe, don't remember which province) where they raise the cost of education? Protests out the fucking ass, so the point where they became world news.

Lazy fucking America will probably just go grab some McDonalds and watch Jersey Shore. Fuck the lack of respect for education in this shit hole.

Guys, I can't read this jargon without wanting to tear my hair out. Can you please tell me if I'm safe? I borrowed money in 2009 for my masters degree. I'm starting my PhD this fall. I'll be enrolled in courses as well. Will I have to pay interest on my loans while in the program?

>>3493543

I'm looking at Canada. Couple years of living there, take a test, congratulations you're a citizen. They have one of the more lax immigration policies compared to other first world countries.

>>3493548

everything starts july 2012...you are safe my friend

>>3493546
This. Not a goddamn thing is going to happen, and not only about the student payment thing. Democrats have absolutely no spine anymore. Fuck the republicans/tea party, but fuck the democrats even more for having no balls.

>>3493549

yea, therefore Canada will get tonnes of lazy immigrants like you and reach America status in no time.

>>3493549
Got to start preparing for that cold weather. Oh, well.

>>3493558
>lazy immigrants

Can't be that lazy if they left the US.

Well, fuck. This is somewhat depressing.

I literally, literally graduate with my BSc in Mathematics next year; specifically, June 2012. I have taken the necessary exams for grad school(GRE general, GRE specific math, GRE specific physics) and wow.

Fucking wow. This is depressing. I was wondering about going to Grad School overseas, but that's now becoming my #1 option. Either France, Spain or Russia.

>>3493558
Canada will get disaffected scientists and engineers from the United States? Oh, what a terrible pity for you.

>>3493551
Thanks for explaining it for me

>Thinks there are jobs for educated citizens in Europe

Hahaha

>>3493569
Right there with you, Anon. With micro/molecular biology. Where do I start? These bachelor's degrees are almost worthless on their own.

Eh..

Did you guys ever get the idea that we may have too many 'scientists' and engineers graduating as it is?

No one is going to care if you leave.

>>3493576
Fuckin me too! I'm getting my BS in bio next year and was planning to start grad school in the fall. Fucking ahhh!

>>3493580

>2011
>ISHYDDT

http://www.bursar.gatech.edu/student/tuition/Fall10_Spr11/fall10_pdf/fall10_grad.pdf

Is this hard to pay?

Also, don't they give you a stipend, since you're actually working?

>>3493580
Scientists and engineers are the only useful things that come out of college and you owe their predecessors everything modern about your life... so no there is no such thing as 'too many' scientists and engineers.

>2011
>George Costanza

>>3493580

No offense, but have you read the statistics? America doesn't graduate a shitload of mathematicians, engineers or scientists anymore. In fact, we IMPORT scientists from other countries. Universities are stock-filled with foreigners who are more proficient in their academic discipline than Americans. This isn't because Americans aren't smart, but it's because most Americans would rather go into a Liberal Arts study.

Come on. We at /sci/ like to glamorize science/mathematics a lot, but let's face it: It's hard fucking work, takes an enormous amount of discipline and patience, and you must dedicate your ENTIRE youth to it if you want to even be considered mediocre. Even as much as we jokingly disrespect Engineers, they have to go through the same shit as well. Most people don't want that type of life, and I don't blame them.

Fact is, America isn't graduating a lot of Scientists/Mathematicians to begin with; now there's going to be a possible brain drain from the US. Then again, we may come BACK to the States to teach, but it's highly unlikely if we setup a life overseas.

>>3493576

Ugh man, I don't even know.

>>3493601
Yes there is if there aren't enough opportunities for them.. If you guys are complaining about low pay or no jobs, then go into a field that has more demand.

>>3493601

>Scientists and engineers are the only useful things that come out of college

See man, no. This is untrue. This is classism at its worst. I'm saying this as a Mathematics major who is set to graduate soon. You're also derailing the thread with this comment.

No more demand for educated citizens.

guess you were right Mike Judge

This is what happens when you don't go out and vote. Fucking radicals get elected into office and they pull off shit like this. Any American bitching in this thread who didn't vote in 2010 deserve what is happening.

>>3493484

Thisfag again. I officially renounced up my US citizenship when I moved to Australia and gained full citizenship in Australia last year. The Oz government is 'officially' supposed to help the US recover debts and shit, but there are very slow on the issue, if they make any progress at all. Think about it from their point of view: Highly educated, young, motivated, talented people immigrating to their country when they don't have to pay anything to educate or raise them. Why the hell would they want to make things hard for them? They can't get enough!

Just last year, thousands of doctors and nurses, many newly qualified, moved to Oz and NZ and we welcome them with open arms all the while laughing at the idiocy of the countries that seem to be doing their damndest to drive them out after investing so heavily in them.

The US will reap what it sows. I coudn't care less about that place any more. I grew up in Wisconsin and had to deal with an education system that made me eat shit for years. Now I'm shit free and there's no political will to try and make me bankroll Amurrika's wars and fucking politics.
You guys have no idea how hard you are getting assfucked every damn day.

>>3493604

>Fact is, America isn't graduating a lot of Scientists/Mathematicians to begin with; now there's going to be a possible brain drain from the US. Then again, we may come BACK to the States to teach, but it's highly unlikely if we setup a life overseas.

America is without a doubt the best country in the world to be in if you're in science/engineering.

We don't get brain drained, we brain drain them.

You're a fool if you really think Europe has better opportunities.

>>3493607
>go into useless career just to keep the economy running smoothly

Fat chance. Fuck you.

>>3493610
No he's right

You don't need college for the arts, they will flourish on their own. You do need an education for the sciences/math there is no arguing against this.

>>3493607
>then go into a field that has more demand.

lol, such as...? What America are you living in?

I never entered science for the money anyway, I love doing it. If I wanted money, I would've got an engineering degree in 4 years and been on my money train. Hopefully, I'll still be able to pull off becoming a scientist, but I'll be damned if this doesn't make it a little harder.

>>3493616

I always thought our government couldn't see past the POTUS's dick they were sucking.

I am glad to be proven wrong. They're doing something right.

http://www.escapefromamerica.com/2010/06/escape-from-america-the-grim-truth/

flee while you still can!

if you are white and educated, australia would love to have you!

(no n!ggers please)

>>3493628
>>3493622

Hey if you're not complaining about the pay or jobs, then I have no qualms with you.

All I said is that if the pay/lifestyle isn't cutting it for you, do something else. Complaining isn't going to magically increase your demand/value.

English major here. How fucked am I?
Time to change majors to something more applicable than teaching English?

>>3493615
Because getting education cut so we could spread the never ending war to Iran would have been so much better.

>>3493633

Ausfag here. Fuck you, you inbred, bogan, redneck queenslander hick.

Idiots like you are the reason our country is slipping towards an australia indistinguishable from america.

>>3493620

>America is without a doubt the best country in the world to be in if you're in science/engineering.

This is changing rapidly. ETH Zurich? The polytechniques within France? The University system in France? Imperial College, Oxbridge? Tokyo U? Several Chinese Universities?

Even CERN. It's every physicist's dream to be there and guess what: it's European based.

I'm all "Fuck Yeah Murrka,'' but you can't deny the fact that every other country is catching up to us relatively quickly.

>We don't get brain drained, we brain drain them.

America will never stay on top. Every couple of decades/centuries, a country falls and another comes on top. This isn't even being less than patriotic; this is a fact. See Greek empire, Roman empire, Mongolian Empire, etc.

>You're a fool if you really think Europe has better opportunities.

CERN is the best possible place for a lot of physicists, theoretical and applied. For pure mathematics, it's anyone's guess for real research. France has superb mathematicians; so does Germany, Russia, etc.

>>3493641
Dude, you were fucked from the beginning..

you should have known honestly..

>>3493580
The US had 1.3 million scientists in 2007, while China had 920 million. It's probably switched by now. The US held the number 1 rank back then for total number of scientists.

>>3493633
What would happen if a nigger and an abo were to breed?

Aside Aussieland has too many spiders as big as my head for my taste I'll just stick to the cold regions of the northern hemisphere thanks.

>>3493292
why do i have a feeling these "dox" will have a very heavy left slant?

>>3493653

Chinese educated scientists don't even compare to American educated scientists..

>>3493655

Thread =>
<= That comment.

Not even mad.jpg

>>3493653
>while China had 920 million

Am I reading this right? almost 70% of China's population is a scientist?

i never understood the significance of federal power

state power is inherently more efficient since regional issues are gnerally far more pressing than general issues. and indeed, most of those general issues are a result of various regional issues not being solved

>>3493644

Don't bitch about the problem if you're not actively engaged in solving it. The tea party made on secret what they were going to do when they got in. If you cared about education funding, you should have went out and voted in last year's mid-term.

>>3493655
That's true for now, and I suppose it will be true for some decades to come; China has a long way to go in producing the same quality of research and researchers at institutions other than the select few. I wasn't arguing that they were better, but that by the numbers they have probably surpassed the US.

>>3493666
Yes, 70 percent :P Should be 920,000.

>>3493676
Sure, sure. You keep playing your party games ignoring the fact you still end up with the same problems in different colored suits.

>>3493616

fuck i need to get a plan like this.

>>3493645

u mad. and a lefty fag.

>>3493659

they hate each other too much to breed. especially in perth somali immigrants and abos are constantly having ooga booga tribal wars with each other in suburban streets

ITT overreacting. Instead of viewing it as something being lost, view it as something being gained. Afterall, the country didn't owe you any help with college anyways and there are still a huge amount of financial help available elsewhere.

Personally I think they should remove all financial aid towards liberal arts degrees and focus entirely on science/math/engineering.

>>3493703
>ooga booga tribal wars

Australia is sounding more and more appealing

>>3493705

Not if you're a white male. Apparently you don't understand how grants works.

This news brings me great sadness.

>>3493715
You can thank racial discrimination and affirmative action for that. You know affirmative action is a democratic program right?

>>3493715
>Me being white male
>Me getting 50k a year in grants

What

>>3493835

You must be a jew, have been in the military, or have had some odd occurrence turn you into a "national treasure" as dubbed by the idiots who make up the grants.

GUYS GUYS IT'S OK!

THE RICH WILL SAVE US !


right? :(

Trickle down?

>>3493883

"Trickle down" is a PR term for giving money to the already wealthy. It's the average joe who needs the money. They'll spend it on useless garbage in stores, and stores will profit. We need a "Trickle UP" system, not vice versa.

I don't think (college) education should be what gets a person a job. I think it should be knowledge of the criteria for the particular job. Granted the easiest (not the fastest, or the smartest necessarily) way to get this knowledge is probably college.

Keep in mind I have no knowledge of what the government is doing. I'm not saying its good or bad, because i honestly know nothing about it.

>>3493913

A-a-are you saying my government doesn't know what it's doing? How is that possible? I thought they were highly intelligent, sage-like men and women?

>>3493913

don't the sales of those products benefit the rich anyway?

>>3493935

They're typically pretty intelligent, but the political process is very complicated. Politicians need funding to even complete in the political game. That funding comes from a number of special interests from corporations to unions. Those interests buy the politician to vote for shit that any benefits them. THATS whats fucking up a great number of things.

>>3493913
>"Trickle down" is a PR term for giving money to the already wealthy.
"Trickle down" is a PR term for "not retarded". It means providing for a beneficial business environment to attract and retain businesses and jobs and grow the economy.

>>3493977

"Not retarded" almost sent us into default.

Working pretty good so far mate.

>>3493988

Wait...what?

>>3493988
Huh?

>could cut defense
>could cut welfare
>could raise taxes
>could do a lot of things
>cut education spending instead

If you aren't a poor nigger or a rich white male or Jew, America doesn't give a fuck about you.

>>3493977

Trickle down is a bullshit device that has been shown not to work.

>>3494036

On 8 of the 10 key economic variables examined, the American economy performed better during the Reagan years than during the pre- and post-Reagan years.
Real median family income grew by $4,000 during the Reagan period after experiencing no growth in the pre-Reagan years; it experienced a loss of almost $1,500 in the post-Reagan years.
Interest rates, inflation, and unemployment fell faster under Reagan than they did immediately before or after his presidency.
The only economic variable that was worse in the Reagan period than in both the pre- and post-Reagan years was the savings rate, which fell rapidly in the 1980s.
The productivity rate was higher in the pre-Reagan years but much lower in the post-Reagan years.

>grad school
>after bachelors
wait, I thought you go to grad school after you get your AA

what the fuck

>>3494049
Do a regression analysis instead of pointing out correlations and people might take you seriously.

>>3494049
>trickle down actually worked, but not on an overly visible level
>the media was very very keen on the deterioration of certain urban sectors and minority poverty, which were probably due to other factors

america!

>mfw I came to the US to study
>mfw when after years spending here I'm thinking of taking my masters degree in Europe (Computer Science).
>mfw I have no face

>>3493266

pipebombs.

>>3493546

I believe it was the U.K.

>>3493705

or the U.S. could cut it's defence spending by 1% and more than triple it's education funding...

>>3494496
That's what I thought, but it turns out that much of the budget spent on education is state run which doesn't show up on those massive posters going OOH 700 BILLION ON DEFENSE 55 BILLION ON EDUCATION