/sci/ - Science & Math

>>3445011
>political science
>science

laughingwhores.jpg
also reported for off topic

>>3445013
well, where else would this belong?

>>3445018

/ne.... oh wait.

What is the point of a debt ceiling if it is always raised?

>>3445011
>Economics is science
>2011

I sure hope.

>>3445030
Its like every other law, it creates a maze through which money and power can be spent.

>>3445030
If the debt ceiling is purposeless, should we then follow it more strictly or scrap the concept entirely?

>>3445011

Pointless of course.

>>3445045

Eliminate it right now, spend 90 percent of what is taken in, loan the rest out. No debt ever.

>>3445054
We'd need to increase taxes to be able to do that, and Republicans will oppose the shit out of any tax hikes regardless of whether or not they're good.

>>3445011

go back to craigslist

>>3445061

Or the gubbmint could spend less. The more you know....

I can't believe they're doing this. It's just a big long delay tactic. August 2nd is the date they have by to pay the money that's owed and they're trying to, somehow, say it's fine and they'll just raise the debt limit to print more money, which'll happen to make the US dollar even worth less than it already is.

Financial markets don't seem to care, so I'm having a hard time caring. It might actually be a good thing for Moody's to downgrade our credit rating -- would be quite a wake-up call about the looming baby-boomer retirement crisis. Although why anybody gives ratings agencies any credence after they fucked the entire world a few years ago is beyond me.

>>3445068
If they did that, you will never reproduce..

>maybe that is a good thing.

>>3445011
I say fuck it. Money doesn't mean anything anyways.

I think there will be a massive alien disclosure very soon. Obama will be the one to disclose the information. The USA will soon default on its debt and alien disclosure will distract people away from the failing economy. There are a number of alien themed movies in hollywood lately, including Paul, Super 8, Cowboys and Aliens, and a sequel to independence day. Movies like these are to prepare the masses for the alien disclosure.

>>3445075

> non-sequitur

>>3445068
Obama already made huge cuts. We'd have to scrap an insane amount of programs to be able to do that, and the fallout from it would be worse than a deficit.

>>3445083
>implying he doesn't understand how society works to keep him from being shot for the asshole he is.

Oh stupidity, what have thou wrought?

>>3445085

When? What cuts did he make?

I was under the impression that Obama this year alone has spent 1.5 trillion more than we took in.

>>3445079
Aliens? Man, fuck that shit. Bigfoot's where it's at.

>>3445096
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/images/04/12/41211finalprogramcuts.pdf?iid=EL

Notice all the cuts to safety and regulation organisations. Its going to cost lives.

The US has become the most powerful nation in the world, they've done it on borrowed money. Doing that can never end well. Even if they got rid of their military, that would only pay the interest on the debt, without even touching the debt itself.

>>3445105

So he cut a few bucks from irrelevant programs/unconstitutional programs and he still spent 1.5 trillion more than was taken in? Impressive.

>>3445105
So what? Lives are the most renewable resource on the planet.

Our country could lose millions more every year and still have an increasing supply.

>>3445115
Which is because republicans pull this kind of shit every time he tried to end the Bush tax cuts.

>>3445108

I always laugh when democrats only want to cut what is actually permitted by the constitution.

Well, all democrats except Obama. He is still in Iraq, he tripled the troops in Afghanistan, he has bombed Libya, Yemen, and Somalia. I guess you could call him the biggest pro-killing of foreigners president ever.

Modern Capitalism is flawed,
Its a wonder why we haven't had a full scale depression.
If people realized how retarded the world economy is right now the value of the Dollar would be worthless.

How do people feel about the prospective candidates for the Republican Party's 2012 presidential bid?

>>3445121

The Bush tax cuts apply to every single bracket.

Why do you support raising taxes on the lowest bracket by 5 percent?

>>3445085
Obama's cuts are for future spending in 2015... Not exactly immediate, vast cuts in the budget. He's just cutting the growth of future spending.

they're being used as a political tool by the republicans at the moment, but they're bluffing. all the talk about the US defaulting is bullshit, that won't happen. what will happen is the US will lose it's AAAn bond rating if they keep this shit up, which will have permanent ramifications for our whole budget system, as well as the global economy
well, at least i hope they're bluffing. it depends how far they're willing to go to win the next election

>>3445126

You mean the welfare state. Because capitalism has not one fucking thing to do with government theft of labor through taxation. Socialism/Marxism on the other hand.......

>>3445131

Shit, save for Dr. Paul. He can;t get elected though, so shit.

>>3445108
What we need is to pass a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution and default on 100% of the national debt.

Suddenly, we can make due with current tax rates and only minimal program cuts beyond the obviously bloated defense budget because we aren't paying interest on debt.

Sure, the nation's credit rating would be forever destroyed, but if the government was constitutionally banned from ever borrowing money again, it wouldn't matter.

>>3445126
yes, obviously marxism is the answer, because that worked out so well last time

>>3445141

The only way to get a lower rating would be if Obama chose to not pay the interest (default).

The markets would look favorably on a gubbmint that stops borrowing and still pays its interest payments.

>>3445150
Oh yes, Stalin was a communist, keep thinking that.

>>3445146
Doing so would cost your country a lot. There's a reason the us borrows so much, to pay for all the things that make your country awesome.

>>3445150
>Implying marxism has ever been properly implemented.
That's like me pointing at Zimbabwe and saying that capitalism can never work because of what they did.

>>3445146
>What we need is to pass a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution and default on 100% of the national debt
yeah, the world doesn't need an economy for a few centuries, right?

>if the government was constitutionally banned from ever borrowing money again, it wouldn't matter.

this shit isn't like taking out a mortgage or getting a loan at the bank. our debt is in government issued bonds, and our whole current financial system is basically rooted in them. you would solve the debt problem by destroying america

>>3445155
No it wouldn't. The market would see a non debt laden country as a rogue it cannot control, and will sever as many ties as possible because it won't fit in an economic paradigm.

You really don't understand how the world works, do you?

>silly libertarians

>>3445126
>>3445158
>>3445163
>>3445150
regardless of what you think of marxism, you must admit that, throughout history, marxists have had some of the best facial hair.
castro
stalin
lenin
marx

>>3445161
This >>3445155 is not awesome, it is stupidity, but it is a produce of american stupidity. Tax funded stupidity of the highest level.

Do you really think borrowing to achieve this level of stupidity is warranted?

>>3445169

The market would love a country that loans money to other nations.

Can't we just start another war?
If we invade Iran of North Korea then that would improve the US industrial sector and create more jobs.
As well as improving the strength of the dollar by forcing Iranians/koreans to buy our products.

>>3445133
Lol Wut? The opposite of that. The Bush tax cuts have given the largest benefits by far to the highest income households.

>>3445174

What?

>>3445155
It's about to hit the fan again.... Just like the Soviet Union.

>>3445178
We tried wars. That's what fucked the economy up in the first place.

>>3445158
>durr the USSR had a state and a command economy instead of magically shifting into a stateless society, that makes it not communism
the soviet union is the best case study for what happens under a direct implementation of marx's original theories. it disproved marx's theories of the 6 stages of societal development and the labor theory of value. modern commies will argue that, because the USSR didn't magically turn into a stateless, classless society under the application of communist ideals, that it was flawed. the flaw was in marx's theories, as they do not function in the real world
we can go into a serious discussion of communism if you like, or you can whine about capitalism some more

As things are now, taxes are too low for swift recovery to be possible and funds too poorly allocated for it to be possible at all. What we really need is a neo-Roosevelt to lay down the law on all these bankers and corporations and set the system straight. Then we could make meaningful progress towards reforming the economy.

Until then, we're just going to get more of the same.

>>3445011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqTXgNM8Kcs

This.

saged for not science.

>>3445180

The current 10 percent bracket would be raised to 15 percent if the Bush tax cuts "for the rich" were repealed. Being against the Bush tax cuts "for the rich" is being for a 5 percent raise on the lowest bracket.

>>3445188
If we had taken all of Iraqs oil companies as spoils of war...
I think what we need is another monarchy that will bring the United States into the empire age.

>>3445180
bush cut taxes across all brackets, not just the very richest americans

>>3445188
Well to be honest, we didn't think things through, as our industrialization didn't have much room to grow when robots can build all the killing machines.

>Rosie the rivetor is rolling over in her grave.

Let's say China get pissed because USA defaults on its debt. WW3, China vs USA, who wins? USA engages with China, meanwhile Russia launches its nukes on USA. USA is destroyed within minutes. And everybody lived happily ever after.

>>3445164
But that's wrong, bro.

That's like somebody in the early 20th century saying that going off the gold standard would destroy everything forever, because money wouldn't have any value if it wasn't backed by gold. You know what? Nothing happened.

We've completely re-tooled our currency before with no ill effect, and I see no reason why we couldn't go back to the older model, or develop an entirely new system if that was necessary.

>>3445204

The U.S. would rape China. It would not be close.

>>3445182
I think he is trying to say you're an idiot, and you wouldn't have survived without current american policies which you advocate against.

He's probably right, given your obvious obliviousness.

>>3445204
The United States would never risk a ground war with China. We can't be that stupid.
Its either nuclear war or proxy war.

>>3445204

China will not go to war with the US as long as the US is a global superpower. Instead, they'll take political action (like refusing to give us any more money) and bide their time as our economy slowly goes to shit and we slide into poverty.

>>3445061
You are an idiot. Spend 90% of what you take in, not take in enough to cover 90% of what you are spending.

>>3445204
The USA wouldn't be able to afford its own war efforts.

>>3445194
>>3445194
>As things are now, taxes are too low for swift recovery to be possible and funds too poorly allocated for it to be possible at all.
>taxes create economic growth
is it opposite day?

and by the way, speaking of more stimulus spending...
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-s-economists-stimulus-has-cost-278000-job_576014.html
creating jobs through government spending is not working this time around. this is completely different from what happened in the great depression

>>3445204
I think russia would fight the chinese, since they'd have more to gain, as america couldn't possibly occupy china in any meaningful manner. The say way they helped defeat germany.

>>3445207
Of course nothing happened cause people are stupid.
They actually went into banks and traded in their GOLD for pieces of replaceable paper.

>>3445211

The hope that no gubbmint means everyone will kill each other is based entirely on emotional wants. Tell me more about your feelings.

>>3445204
Russia wouldn't back China. They hate the Chinese, and were only vaguely allied with them during the Cold War for ideological reasons.

Also, China would never attack the US because their currency is largely backed by the American debt their government holds. If they attacked us over a temporary default on interest payments, we would declare that debt null and void as part of our war effort against them, and they would never get those trillions of dollars back.

>>3445215
China does not want the U.S. economy to go to shit because
1) We owe them money that they would like back and
2) We import so much shit from China that their economy would take a major hit if we couldn't afford to do so.

>>3445188
no, what fucked up the economy in the first place was the housing bubble
the wars fucked up our budget

>>3445207
do you understand anything at all about how our financial system works, my friend?

>>3445223

That's why I said that political reform is necessary BEFORE we give any more money to the government. Otherwise it'll just go into some banker or CEO's pocket like the last stimulus package.

>>3445223

I personally think the problem is how the spending was allocated. The investments should have been in productivity growth, education, and so on. There were far too many frivolous projects put online.

>>3445077
mfw this is what pretty much everyone on this board believes.

For being "intelligent" people sure can be stupid.

>>3445226
This pretty much proves the point. You sure are dense.

>>3445225

This is such irrational reasoning. Gold doesn't have any inherent value either. What the fuck am I going to do with a few bricks of gold aside from trade them for goods I can actually use?

>>3445223

After reading that article and several other articles by that same author it has become clear that he has no fucking clue what he is talking about. Good try though with the right wing propaganda.

We used to use Gold,
Then we used dollars,
and now we use credit.
We literally do not own anything at all, we just "rent" it from the central bank. "Your" house, car, bank account, its all a lie.

>>3445246

Explain in logical detail how your wants prove that no gubbmint means everyone will kill each other with guns (i wont even ask you to explain the massive murder rates now with the gubbmint).

>>3445238
>What we really need is a neo-Roosevelt to lay down the law on all these bankers and corporations and set the system straight
i hate to break it to you, but for the most part the government and the financial system are irreversibly intertwined. no political crackdown on the private sector is going to be very effective, simply because the politicians seek benefit for themselves, not for the good of the country or the american people or whatever. an authoritarian approach is a giant step in the wrong direction, and would end up fucking up the market, making the situation much worse

>>3445250
Gold is a truly scarce good.
While the US dollar is Artificially scarce.
Here read this http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/index.htm

Situation 1- The worst one: The US Defaults on its debt, causing the entire worlds market to fail as all currencies jump on a waterbed of value. Second Great Depression lasting longer then first.

Situation 2- We increase the debt limit, China keeps its peg, the rich get richer the poor get poorer, we try again 6 months later. Cycle continues till 1 or 3 is reached or the poor start rioting.

Situation 3- The government shuts itself down, the economy fluctuates extremely and almost 40% of all government jobs are lost. New business prospects become viable due to mandatory needs not being fulfilled, however deflation spiral could happen if media handles improperly.

Situation 4- We actually do the math, and stop the wars to pay back the 1.6 TRILLION a month to put the economy back on a track of savings and credit.

4 is unlikely, i say were fucked.

>>3445253
You're quite aloud to go buy back your gold. Feel free to do so.

>>3445256

It was the same way before/during/after the great depression. Fat cats, corrupt politicians, and irresponsible banking practices. We don't necessarily need to tear the whole system apart - just a few choice laws regarding banking practices, government spending, loopholes allowing rich folks and corporations to hide their money, ect.

>>3445252

of course it's written by a fucking right-winger, a left winger wouldn't say anything bad about obama. ignore the bullshit and take the main idea out of it. hell, it's in the fucking title
>Obama’s Economists: ‘Stimulus’ Has Cost $278,000 per Job
the stimulus, in it's current form, has been wildly inefficient. if you're going to ignore that fact on the grounds it's "right wing propaganda" you're an idiot

>>3445253
welcome to the world of modern economics. there's literally almost no trading of any actual, tangible items at all in the modern financial sector

>>3445262
How do we pay 1.6 trillion back like magic?

>>3445250
...and that's why I've always argued for a currency backed by energy.

One unit of this currency would be redeemable for a certain set number of kilowatt-hours.

>>3445262
You forgot 5: Inflate the currency to the point that it is once again manageable.

>fiat currency, how does it work?

>>3445268
What would it matter if everyone else is using Dollars?
The system does not allow you to "opt out"
There is no choice, you are born into this system and have to follow their laws or try to change them.
Sadly no political party is promoting actual change, only Conservatism vs Liberalism.
Owell I am only saying what I think would be a better way, I can adapt to survive in any system the Masses choose to impose on me.

>>3445259

Look, we have to get used to artificial scarcity sooner or later. This is how pricing works for ebooks, journals, and subscription based businesses.

>>3445269

The government always causes the recessions. The last one came about through forcing banks to loan to minorities and other undesirables. The simply tried to cut their losses with credit default swaps.

>>3445269
they don't fucking work. there is literally no difference between the bankers and "evil corporations" and politicians and lobbyists and such. you're not dealing with distinct groups, you're dealing with a complex system, and scapegoating a single part of that system as the root of the problem and then trying to fix whatever perceived problems it has that are at the root of this issue will be ineffective at best, and disastrous at worst

this is not a simple issue of "regulate more" or "regulate less" or "elect this politician, he'll fix everything"

>>3445279
By not spending it on shit like useless wars so the debt stops going up, then once the debt stops rocketing the GDP and US Treasuries can pay it back reasonably. Through taxation because hurr fucking durr its how the government does everything, as its the only way they can invest into the economic system.

But currently were just China's bitch and the rich are scared to give up their luxury.

>>3445256

Politicians are afraid of the public, because that's who's keeping them in power, ultimately. It is possible to put pressure on them. Lobbyists use money and the threat of no more money for that, the actual people can protest. It works out if you do it right, cf. German Unification.

>>3445279
>>3445279
>How do we pay 1.6 trillion back like magic?

>>3445282
I never said it would be a good idea to trade your money for gold.
You're right, it doesn't allow you to "opt-out"

So then, why would you want gold as legal tender? Do you see gold as having more inherent value than paper money?
It was only useful to us because it's a rare and pretty rock.

>>3445285
>to minorities and other undesirables.
here we are, we arrive at the root of capitalism.
Greed and survival of the fittest.

>>3445281
>Hyper Inflation
>Good
Full fucking retarded.
Bread will cost 100s of dollars, the average family will barely subsist and the Fed won't be able to keep printing money to keep up. The Fed has to immediately halt printing to stop a hyper inflation spiral once its manageable and we know how good the Fed is at doing something competently.

>>3445271
>welcome to the world of modern economics. there's literally almost no trading of any actual, tangible items at all in the modern financial sector
Which is why I support Tea Party types in DC. Regardless of their inane political goals, they seem set on causing a permanent default on the national debt.

I'm fully aware that doing so will destroy the global financial system. In fact, that is the point of the whole endeavor.

Most of the modern world's problems would be solved if power were returned to the hands of those who directly control the means of production rather than financial traders.

>>3445279
>How do we pay 1.6 trillion back like magic?

>>3445306
good. i shouldn't be forced to help someone that is inferior to me.

just like i shouldn't expect help just because i'm less intelligent than some.

>>3445306

Agreed, the welfare state caused the recession. The government forcing companies to loan was the problem, not capitalism in anyway.

>>3445322
>welfare state caused the recession

By that logic, Germany, all the Scandinavian countries, and half the rest of the EU should be crashing the world economy like, every month.

>>3445322
>Forcing companies to loan.
>Implying all these shitty loans didnt make the banks loads e mone when they re sold the assets, and were paid back with their own money.

>>3445253
Why is it you think it'd be a good thing to use gold instead of dollars or credit?

>>3445262
>Situation 1
won't happen. we will not default
>Situation 2
that's what will eventually end up happening once the republicans milk this for all it's worth
>Situation 3
maybe. would be interesting, i've gotta say
>Situation 4
you don't stop wars like magic. we need to pull out, but it'll take time and doing so won't stop our debt problem
we HAVE to reform social security and medicare, just from the nature of those entitlement programs
nobody wants to talk about it, from the nature of what fixing them will entail, but reform is absolutely necessary for our financial future


>>3445281
yeah, that worked out pretty well for zimbabwe and world war 2 germany, right?

>>3445330
they haven't run out of money because of the huge capital they accrued through their thriving free markets decades ago.

>>3445322
Oh ye who hates on his own welfare. You should pay attention to the above poster who rightly calls you a product of that same environment who would have never existed.

>Abortion: it should have been your mother's choice.

>>3445333
>>3445330

I believe he was being facetious. Though I don't recognize that tripfag, so he may be sincere.

>>3445337

When exactly was that? Because I'm pretty sure the Federal Republic of Germany has been a welfare state ever since its inception. Maybe they're doing well because they're actually producing tangible goods.

>>3445341
>>3445330
>>3445333

He is sincere, you will never make any progress talking to him. I tried once. I subsequently ragequit. But Im back now.

>>3445347
He is irony defined, isn't he? It is like he's arguing for his own suicide without realizing it.

>>3445303
yes, but they essentially keep them complacent through increasing social spending and cutting taxes and such (which is where our deficit comes from in the first place) and them manipulating worthless, emotional wedge issues to divide them, such as abortion and gay marriage
which are two of the biggest, dumbest non-issues in the american political spectrum

>>3445330
haven't you heard about the EU debt crisis?
but seriously, the difference between us and them is the difference in taxing practices, as well as social differences, such as healthier lifestyles than americans

>>3445330

Not by any actual logic, no.

>>3445333

> not knowing several banks are gone

>>3445339

I receive no welfare (unless you mean what it originally meant when the constitution was written).

> retard logic: you are only here today because of the gubbmint. if the gubbmint did not exist you would not be here, i know this because you are only here because of the gubbmint because you are only here because of the gubbmint ......( continuous circle).....

>>3445334

Dollars used to represent Gold. If dollars dont represent Gold they dont really represent anything. And thats kind of tricky. To make sure dollars are worth anything, you need a large, and complicated institution like the Federal Reserve, which doesnt work, and has caused a lot of recessions.

Gold is a good standard because it has value. And because we mine gold the amount of currency is growing at a healthy rate roughly proportional to the growth of the economy itself.

>>3445322
i'm starting to suspect you're a liberal parodying a libertarian of some sort

>>3445347
he's a silly troll. i've seen much, much better come out of /old/
>hardline libertarians vs raging marxist troll threads, oh my!

>>3445347

Summerfag

>>3445352

> citation needed

>>3445330
Those countries don't have massive defense budgets eating through a trillion dollars a year, largely because they rely on us as the main partner in NATO to protect them from foreign threats.

Also, until the last few years, they have had much more homogeneous populations. Most people there have the same education level, make about the same amount of money, and share a common social/ethnic identity.

The US on the other hand, has a massive uneducated population, both from immigration and from a persistent urban lower class. These people make little money, thus paying little in tax and costing a great deal in welfare. Furthermore, there isn't a single unified social identity in this country, meaning that people don't feel the same obligation to support their fellow citizens at a cost to themselves.

America just isn't as well suited to a welfare state as northern european countries are.

>>3445352

Yeah, you know, I was just driving thinking about this. There are a lot of funny little problems when you believe in things like freedom, or free markets.

You have to sort of realize at some point that the problems exist, because your solution wasnt efficient to begin with. I had that realization back when I was in high school being an tough anarchist dude.

>>3445361

I already knew you were an idiot.

>>3445357

Gold is only used because of tradition. Bernanke said so.

>>3445354
>Not by any actual logic, no.

They ARE welfare states far more extensive than any Liberal's wet dream, and they did wonderfully fine until someone managed to accidentally a whole global economy. They also happen to have a bit more strident financial regulations in place, I wonder if that has anything to do with things.

just finished reading all the posts.

once again it seems libertarians are shitting all over the liberals.


enjoy your failed keynesianism

>>3445352
you haven't seen what i've seen. there was a hardcore libertarian i ran across once who tripped under THE FREE MARKET WILL !fixit or something like that, who straight up said if he caught a deadly illness he should die rather than receive government assistance, as the market deemed he was not fit to survive
liberty is small time

>>3445365
>America
>Defense budget

Nope.

>>3445374
>some guy said so it must be true

>>3445365

> implying defense, and not welfare/entitlements cost more

>>3445368

I do not support, or believe in freedom or free markets.

>>3445374
iseewhatyoudidthere.exe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NJnL10vZ1Y

>>3445378

I miss /new/. It was like all the trolling in the world hit all the insanity in the world and created a mega hurricane.

>>3445379
I suppose you'd rather call it the "conquest budget" or some shit like that, you filthy hippie.

>ITT: the sole cause of the deficit is the military budget, and disbanding our military will solve all our budget problems

>>3445378
i feel the same way though.

i don't deserve society's money.

>>3445383
>I do not believe in freedom or support free markets

Political science is not a science. GTFO

>>3445389
>implying it wont.

>>3445377
Ron Paul makes more economic sense for our country... it's a shame he'll never get more than 10% of the vote regardless of economic conditions because people prefer fiat paper currency over gold based currency.

>>3445377
>failed
>keynesianism
kind of redundant, isn't that?

>>3445357
>gold standard
oh lawdy, where in god's name did you learn about economics, kiddo?

>>3445388

Hahaha... Im calling it that next opportunity.

Anyway, on topic, does anyone feel its inevitable, and unfortunate, for the government to default?

>>3445388

I'd call it the aggression budget. That's what it actually is. Whether you think its good or not, no one sane could call it defense.

>>3445376

> welfare states work wonderfully unless they exist inside a non-vacuum, like the world today.

I see.

>>3445378

You found a person that does not support theft of labor through taxation? Wow, that is really amazing.

>>3445381

You would need to understand why he said it, and who he was talking to. If you could even understand.

>>3445357
Commodity-based money is a horrible idea, unless you have a small country that cannot control its own fiat currency. When you have commodity-based currency, like a gold standard, all hell can break lose, because the monetary authority no longer has the power to control the supply and keep it at a constant value. If you do, you will end up with a run on the commodity, or uncontrollable flow of the commodity from one country to another, as the money-value of the commodity is much greater than the commodity value, which defeats the imagined purpose of having a commodity-based currency in the first place. This is what happened in the great depression.

The ideal currency is one that isn't tied to anything but the GDP that you can trade it for, and with a monetary authority (national bank or Fed) that can adjust the supply up and down to keep the value relatively stable and slowly inflating to promote investment.

>>3445401

Arizona State University WP Carey school of business.

Why?

No, I mean, I am just talking about the Gold Standard, I didnt get that idea because my professors are advocating it or anything.

>>3445406
I'd call it the federal budget,
because the people are FED up with it, get it?

"defense budget" should be renamed to "Israeli defense budget".

>>3445407
>theft of labor through taxation

Right, confirmed for Internet libertarian.

>>3445386
>IT'S LIKE A FROTHING POOL OF PIRANAS EXCEPT THEY'RE ALL WEARING PARTY HATS AND THE BENNY HILL THEME IS PLAYING
truly, we trolled with the gods themselves upon that board. quite a shame, though don't tell me you haven't seen the new one yet

this thread is similar to early /new/, simply from how liberal it is. you know, before it started getting really libertarian

>>3445392

I also do not support any state regulation at all. Nor do I support state punishment.

>>3445406

Some portion would be defense, and that just so happens to be one of the actual things allowed in the constitution.

>>3445410

>This is what happened in the great depression.

Wait but we werent on the gold standard before the great depression.

> If you do, you will end up with a run on the commodity

You can avoid runs... with the Aldrich Vreeland act!

>>3445383
why do you call yourself liberty if you don't believe in liberty itself?

>>3445402
I feel it is inevitable.

Whether it's unfortunate or not, it's difficult to say. On one hand, the status quo cannot be maintained indefinitely, and the default represents the end of the status quo and the beginning of something new that may very well be better. On the other hand, millions of people are relying on Social Security and Medicare and millions more are invested heavily in Treasury bonds and will suffer greatly if these things are lost.

>>3445410
You can even trade paper dollars as it is... So all currency systems are severely broken. Might as well go with seashells or batteries.

>>3445423

Or logics.

>>3445407
Since you don't support theft of labor I would like to introduce to you the Marxian concept of exploitation of labor.
What industrial workers produce is worth more than what they are paid. The corporations own all the land and force the wage slaves to work on that land for little pay.
It seems very unfair, that you are against taxation of corporate wealth, even though that wealth belongs to in the hands of those that created it, not just the land owners.

>>3445433

I support actual Liberty, and a Liberty market. Free markets include things like murder for hire, rape for hire, etc. Freedom includes things like rape, murder, an torture.

The big question is what will happen to the markets.

Everything from another flash crash to a double-dip recession has been presaged, according per who you listen to.

>>3445410
When has the gold standard ever caused the collapse of a nations economy?
Andrew Jackson was right to fight the central bank, it is the single worst facility in our whole nation.

>>3445407
I know, right? someone who would sacrifice their own life for the good of the Free Market... truly a noble man, though he did live with his parents, if i recall correctly...

>>3445402
like i said, it won't happen. even if the debt ceiling gets raise, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll default

>>3445421
oy vey, you antisemetic goy! i shall see you banned at once from here for hate speech!

>>3445364
Citations? Of stupidity! so many to choose from:
>>3445354
>>3445285
>>3445255
>>3445226
>>3445209
>>3445199
>>3445182
>>3445175
>>3445145
>>3445133
>>3445125
>>3445115
>>3445096
>>3445083
>>3445068
>>3445054
>>3445047

>>3445424

A new /new/? /int/?

>>3445440

Liberty cannot exist with a state. So yeah.

>>3445446

Japan doesn't seem to give a fuck. They get the first voice in the matter.

>>3445383
>>3445445
ooh, i'll bite. elaborate here. how will you control freedom in your ideal government while simultaneously providing "liberty?"

>>3445131
For announced candidates and potential candidates for the Republican party: Save your money; Obama has already won his second term.

Along with the topic, Freshman Republicans (Tea-Partiers) have really a house majority for 2012 in my opinion. The rhetoric of the Republicans being "The party of no" is becoming true. It's funny. Poor Boehner, no matter how good of a deal he could workout with Obama (the deal that Obama agreed to was honestly a goldmine for Republicans, yet, they fucked up), he could never be a big enough pulpit to sway the house.

Pic related. It's the pleasure I get from watching the naiveness of House Tea-Partiers thinking that they're being legendary mavericks.

What exactly is the difference between liberty and freedom?

>>3445442
A central bank creates nothing but inflation with little to no warning. So you go from 0.4% inflation to 12.5% in a matter of just a couple years, with just one OPEC country cutting off the oil. Gold causes deflation when the economy busts, and that is what caused the Great Depression. Why buy today when it will be cheaper tomorrow with gold deflation?

these threads, like religion threads, sure do bring out the pseudointellectuals

>>3445445
>Free markets include things like murder for hire, rape for hire, etc. Freedom includes things like rape, murder, an torture.

...
8/10. Actually had me going for a while there.

>>3445450

> implying people that are sick can only get better if the gubbmint taxes the population

Silly goose.

>>3445451

> u b dumb yo, and u be dumb because u be dumb

I see.

>>3445442

Well what kind of booms and busts? There were a lot of bank runs in the late 1800s, but, I think runs are a problem in themselves that can easily be avoided.

If its really volatile then I guess we shouldnt use it. But, its not nearly as volatile as a lot of other commodities, like bread.


What do you mean by "weak currency"?

>>3445449

I remember a quote where Andrew Jackson said that was his greatest accomplishment. And now its like, that whole banking aspect of early american history is just totally forgotten about.

>>3445442

I wouldn't even advise the average investor to put a portion of his investment capital into gold or other precious metals.

What is, properly speaking, the intrinsic value of gold? It is a good conductor. Other than that it's hard to think of practical use for gold that is not as a luxury commodity.

Common stock is a better hedge against inflation than gold. Gold is a heavy metal. One pays to own it, pays to store it, pays to move it around. Gold appreciates in value over time (sometimes!), but what of that? One does not earn interest on his gold, nor does one earn any sort of dividend which he could reinvest. It seems to me to be a common bit of silliness to invest in gold, or for that matter precious metals, at all.

>>3445445
I support ACTUAL liberty.
Good to know.
Now if we could only agree on what liberty ACTUALLY is...

>>3445469

"Freedom consists not in doing what one wants to, but in never doing what one does not wish to do."

J.J. Rousseau

>>3445455
offsite, it was set up along with a new /r9k/ after the boards' demise. the URL is banned here, i'll post a picture with the URL once the discussion is over to avoid getting prematurely banned.
you've missed a lot in the time you've been away, such as the ben garrison trolling

>>3445461

Liberty cannot be "provided" by a state.

>>3445465

Anarchists support freedom. Freedom includes rape, murder, etc, I am not an anarchist.

>>3445469

Freedom is simply doing whatever you want. Liberty is freedom to do whatever you want so long as you do not impose on another's freedom to do whatever they want so long as....

>>3445475

The Fed was created to stop runs. The Fed failed from day one.