/sci/ - Science & Math

>>3373821

has anyone ever been as far as decided to look more like?

>>3373821

fuck off, failtroll

>>3373830
no guts or intelligence
>>3373833
yes I have

LOLZ.... you can't think of a single example of Protist colonies?????
Troll on, good buddy.

Single cells are not self serving. Some components/organelles within a single cell organism were simpler organism.

Therefore logically cells can would come together and form a greater being.

>>3373844
its late i am tired

It wasnt instantaneous

single cell ----> biofilms ----> multicell

Pretty well established tbh

Come back and ask again when you are less butthurt and can form coherent sentences.

>>3373844
>Therefore logically cells can would come together and form a greater being.

wrong. thats like saying buildings are inherently more stable with inner support structures that increase stability therefore logically buildings should be stacked on top of each other.

>>3373850
yea its pretty well established like the plot to a famous movie is well established but that does not make it reality tell me how you go from biofilms to cell that cooperate into large animals you cant.

>>3373837
neither can you please go away unless you have evidence

>>3373866
Organisms aren't buildings.

However, I will entertain you. Since the single building is stable, we will use the same structure and building bigger buildings.

This is to say the "building" inside the bigger building isn't considered a building because it gave up its outer skin, no longer needing its "walls" since being in a bigger building preclude that benefit.

Hence the smaller building is part of the bigger building's foundation/structure.

>>3373866
>yea its pretty well established like the plot to a famous movie is well established but that does not make it reality tell me how you go from biofilms to cell that cooperate into large animals you cant.
actually we can, the only difference between simple multicell organisms and biofilms whether they group. Grouping is to be expected within environments with competing single cell organisms due to parasitic behavior

Once grouping is established individual cells can specialise based on their specific dependancies withing the meta-organism

>>3373878
that sounds elegant but it violates the law that you scientists claim which is that lifeforms and all physical structures for that matter try to reach the lowest energy levels therefore what you just described is not what would happen ever because it would take some kind of intervention to reach the model you described since the single cells are perfectly well adapted to environment and have no need to transform into something like the megabot from power rangers what sense does this make it does not

>>3373854
I am a foreign exchange student so my english is not very well by I do know a lot of biology as it is my major.

>>3373906
>law of entropy applied to open system

>I can't explain it...so....MAGIC!

0/10

>>3373902
but you are still missing several crucial steps which is why these multicelled organisms come together when as you say they specialize in different things that makes no sense plus how does an organism come together and cooperate and then REPLICATE itsself without the DNA code which it would need to form such a thing when as you say it came together individually. you fail very hard.

>>3373919
that isn't what 0/10 means you dumb faggot

>>3373923
Volvox.
/thread

6/10 for getting me to reply
you obviously don't know a thing about biology

>>3373906
Key word you mention is environment, should the environment sustain the population have unlimited resource and is in stasis then there is no need for an organism to cooperate or change.
That is the central tenet of evolution, the change of environment equate to fight over resource which drives competition.
Since the environment allows non-zero sum, cooperation will always benefit.

>>3373923
No. You fail. Google Mitochondrial DNA.... and troll better.

>>3373947
HE'S A TROLL
SO HE DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT
YOU ARE BEING TROLLED
YOU FUCKING IDIOT

>>3373933

HUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRR

You're fucking dumb.

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/331789/title/Multicellular_life_arises_in_a_test_tube

From June of this year. Sorry dude.

/thread

>>3373919
I never said magic and you cant explain it either so...what use are you? at least I'm challenging long held assumptions

>>3373943
you make it sound like single cells are sentient individuals who get together and scheme over what to do when in fact they are simple chemical reactions so you need to explain the MECHANISMS under which several cells would get together and replicate other groups of cell just like them YOU CANT this is not a lesson in how to cooperate for success that is for beings with consiousness like humans

>>3373947
why dont you google google I know everything about biology you dont need to point out sources simply explain in your own words oh thats right you cant so you just throw out something for me to research which I have already done so for hundreds of hours idiot

>>3373978
I need proof that sentience and cooperation and exclusive.

>>3373978
I need proof that sentience and cooperation are exclusive.

>>3373968
that article read to me like the sensationalization campaign that NASA put out when they claimed that they created new life when in fact anyone who knows anything about chemistry knows arsenic mimics phosphorus because of the electron orbitals sorry failtroll you need to come up with some orginal thought instead of simply googling "multicellular life created" then copypasting the first link you find go to school some more then come back to challenge me idiot

>>3374001
if there is no sentience then all you have left is chemistry and as anyone with logic should know chemistry does not create megatrons it simply reacts to environment.


I once again have trounced you all you cannot even go to what my intellect and try and defeat because the logic of which is and as such you simply throw out links and think that is good enough to solve everything so as to this I say you all cannot fathom that which is not suggested in the science bibles you pretend is golden truth it ISNT!

>Got banned from a myspace group a long time ago for procaliming mass=gravity. Thats why the sun has more gravity then any planet, because mass bends space.

I never forgave that son of a bitch. You know banning is a criminal offense now right? The U.N. has declared it a human rights violation to deny anyone any aspect of the internet. So the mods of 4chan need to get their act together, and undo every IP ban ever. Don't care how long it takes them. Less they want to go on trial for terrorism.

>>3373968
I was looking exactly for this to debunk this idiot. Thanks for doing the job!

>>3373821

>transition from single celled life forms to multicellular life forms

Reaction to the dynamic environment and the biological tendency to increase in complexity.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Aren't you the dumbfag that posted about koalas defying evolution? Why don't you read up on the topics you're posting about? You are proof against "intelligent" design.

>>3373821
> noone can explain the transition from single celled life forms to multicellular life forms

[Emergent multicellular life cycles in filamentous bacteria owing to density-dependent population dynamics. Rossetti V, Filippini M, Svercel M, Barbour AD, Bagheri HC. J R Soc Interface. 2011 May 18.]
http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/05/17/rsif.2011.0102.long

[The origin of multicellularity in cyanobacteria. Schirrmeister BE, Antonelli A, Bagheri HC. BMC Evol Biol. 2011 Feb 14;11:45.]
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/45

[Many from one: Lessons from the volvocine algae on the evolution of multicellularity. Herron MD. Commun Integr Biol. 2009 Jul;2(4):368-70.]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2734051/

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of you not knowing how to google.

>>3374035
Did you even read the press release from NASA, you fucking moron?
They never claimed they had created new life, you're conflating two different science stories.
One was about people creating life in a laboratory. Some people criticized it because they only created the DNA and put it into a bacterial cell which was missing its own genetic information.
The other one was NASA claiming they had found "arsenic-based" life, when all they had done was get an extremophile into an environment with a lot of arsenic, probably prompting it to incorporate some arsenic into its metabolism instead of phosphorous... the only data they had was that the organism had more arsenic in its cells now and less phosphorous, if I recall correctly, which just wasn't nearly as much as they had claimed.
Again, you show your ignorance over the field you claim to study.

>>3374133
so your telling me for 3 billion years single celled life is the norm then over a short period of time boom! animals and insects everywhere I dont think so besides you say biology has a tendency? try again biology and evolution have no direction you should listen to your idiot peers on this board.

>>3374114
you and that other idiot think multicelled life can arise from a lab experiment but then go on to proclaim it was a slow process over millions or billions of years. pick one.

>>3374187
there are many loopholes to the evolution theory including the worthless koala bear and I have read up on it as you can see no one here can challenge my knowledge and I stand before you king of you all becuase you cannot even go so far as to even try to trounce or go close so as to such provocation cannot into what you thought it wasent idiot

>>3374197
believe it or not I have read those papers but I bet YOU HAVENT!!!1

>>3374282
How, exactly, do koala bears defy evolution?

>>3374063
UN rights violation for being banned from Myspace? LOL. take that shit to the US Supreme Court. I can hear Anton Scalia laughing from hear.

mfw /sci/ cant see trolls,

how bout that some sort of crappy squid has eyes like hoomans

>>3374317
I could go into much details but to keep it short essentially the koala has no way of self defense it is slow and very much visible to predators therefore it should have gone extinct b now yet it roams about with its stupid face eating grass being immortal

>>3374241
no idiots i know what im talking the NASA story clearly had several news outlets claiming that they said "new life created" when in fact it was just an element substitution taking place haha you scinetists are so laughable you are ready to claim absolute knowledge at the drop of a hat when in fact you cannot go into theory and to such claim saying that when you want to do that them others cannot objectify said dissertation providing false evidence so think about that before acting with impunity and pretenciousness dumbass

>>3374400
no its idiots like you who instead of taking on the issue you just claim that person is trolling so your world view is not shattered in the face of evidence and logic

>>3374489

and its idiots that pass through med school that mess up on my question.

anyhoo.. my world view changes each day, seriously.

>>3374547

not implying that i did, i phaled psycho neuro pharmacology because of parkinsons disease, do not do your own research.. stick to the syllabus.

>>3373821
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZpsVSVRsZk

/thread

the reason for the transition from single to multi cell is because the genome mutated and allowed for multi cell to happen. it turns out the individual cells in multi cell compliment each other and are better suited for survival than single cell which has to fend for itself.

>>3373821
Random mutation, which is then subject to natural selection.
A mutation allowed cells to work together, these cells did better than their single-celled cousins. Therefore they dominated.

>>3374568
>short clip from cosmos describing the different types of primitive life

>nothing about the transition from single cells to multicells

you fail big time not only did it not discuss what I asked but it is also sagan who is esentially saying oooh look at life its cool! thats not science.

>>3374282

>so your telling me for 3 billion years single celled life is the norm then over a short period of time boom! animals and insects everywhere I dont think so besides you say biology has a tendency? try again biology and evolution have no direction you should listen to your idiot peers on this board.
>so your telling me for 3 billion years single celled life is the norm then over a short period of time boom

>short period of time boom
>try again biology and evolution have no direction

>Idiot doesnt know the difference between micro and macro evolution, and lectures me about evolution.

I will repeat:

Reaction to the dynamic environment and the biological tendency to increase in complexity.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

>>3374600
what you said makes no sense
natural selection = nonrandom process

you claim a random mutation is what one day caused a cell to turn into a monster this is retarded thinking and if you truly believe this you know nothing.

>allowed cells to work together
so they all received the mutation at the same time? hahahah

>>3374586
you simply cannot tweak a dna molecule and go from single celled to multicelled in one generation because mutation happen to single base pairs and in order to mutate to an animal you would have to lengthen the dna by many orders of magnitude!

you idiots are so ignorant its funny

if you have no knowledge please dont post here

>>3374640
you explained nothing you just quoted me and then regurgitated a little quip you read in a biology book somwehere please explain the mechanics instead of throwing out little verses shorter than those found in the bible as if you are a faithful servant to dawkins. idiot.

>>3374642
What I said makes complete sense
>natural selection = non-random process
Absolutely true. Well done.

>you claim a random mutation is what one day caused a cell to turn into a monster
Nope.

random mutations don't "one day" do anything.

Random mutations happen, then natural selection is the process that weeds out the bad mutations from the good.

For instance, bad mutation happens. It's going to have a negative effect on the creature. Therefore it doesn't do as well. So that mutation is not going to prosper.

A good mutation happens, this one somehow aids the creature, it does better than others, so this mutation is likely to prosper.

Over billions of years, billions of mutations are selected against in the process I described. Stack all those together, a species will be vastly different to how it started.

>mfw I get banned for "imbecillic trolling"

It's that same shitty mod. I must speak to Moot about firing his crack smoking ass.

>>3374642
me again ( >>3374694 ), something I forgot to address
>so they all received the mutation at the same time? hahahah
Of course not. Surely you know, cells divide.
The cells that divided from the original mutated cell would work together.

>>3374653

>bible
>servant to dawkins

You havent addressed my question, and have instead provided statements without any evidence.

Provide evidence that Bible and Richard Dawkins are correct.
Prove that what they advocate is not mutually exclusive.
And explain why they are correct.

If you dont do this, then you are an idiot.
Deal with it.

an advantageous mutation like language

>>3374710
No way would language be possible because of a single mutation.

>your all faliures of highest caliber.

At least we know how to properly use "you're"

>>3374694
I don't need a description of how evolution works stay on point you have not said anything of any substance or have described nothing as to why the single cell transitioned into multicells this process is not something that comes from macroevolution of animals which is what you were describing. just give it up if you cant explain the mechanisms then get out my thread and do not be ashamed because no scientist can explain it this is the point!

>>3374714
I am a foreign exchange student from china and even though I dont have full understanding of english language I can tell you our average 3rd greaders have a higher mathematics understanding than your 12th graders! think about that hahhaa

>>3374702
troll

>>3374700
Im going to explain this one more time: there is no mutation on a single celled organism which would make it so that the next generation would now be cooperative whole which is then turned into animals this defies what is possible it is like saying ok if I throw a rock at a building it will chip away and then it will become weaker making it crumble which will then shake the earth making the whole planet explode. this is the same line of logic

One day, I want to meet a person who denies evolution say "I was wrong."

>>3374764
I did explain it, because it works exactly the same as what you would call "microevolution".
That's all macroevolution is, microevolution over a long period of time, after many mutations.

I explained how a single celled organism transitions into a multi-celled organism here:
>>3374600 and >>3374700
To which you made many false assumptions, clearly showing that you do need a description of evolution, which I provided here:
>>3374694
So I've perfectly well answered your question.
You've just done the classic tactic of de-railing then claiming I've gone off-topic.

>>3374770

evolution, why so racist?

>>3374764
>There is no mutation on a single celled organism which would make it so that the next generation would now be cooperative whole.
Correct, it would likely be caused by multiple mutations.

>which is then turned into animals
Correct, as this process happens over millions of years. The multi-celled organisms don't "just get turned into animals".

>>3374764

>If you dont answer this, then you are an idiot.
>troll
>No answer, used Ad Hominem

Congratulations, you are an idiot.

>>3374764

>foreign exchange student from china

>china

Gtfo.

>>3374770
I dont deny evolution I'm simply pointing out the gaps in the understading which you scientists merely wave off as being easily explained which as you can see this is not the case it is a very elaborate process which no scientist can explain and could very well be possibility of intervention so as you know this is not an either or because the two can coincide to where it was and as such is then being obligated to do so. abiogenesis is a mystery just as multicellular is a mystery however it took billion of years to get to multicellular and then an explosion of animals but with abiogenesis it could probably have come in one day so it may or may not be replicated in lab where as the multicell transition will remain a mystery. deal with it.

>>3374795
those are not explanations you simply said random mutation I cant think of a more weak effort to explain this phenomena although it does not surprise on this board once again I have to tell you that a mutation to a single cell (even if it make the cell more cooperative)
will still produce another single cell and not an animal why are you not understanding this? we will have to disagree

>>3374824
you never asked a question to me you simply asked about the bible and dawkins which have nothing to do with the original post

please rephrase the question or use better english

>>3374812
>Correct, it would likely be caused by multiple mutations.
....to a single cell

>Correct, as this process happens over millions of years. The multi-celled organisms don't "just get turned into animals".

your talking about multicell evolution now please stay on topic

now i understand why op was banned...

>you simply said random mutations
Yes, because random mutations are what allowed single celled organisms to work together as multi-celled organisms. Natural Selection is the process where these multi-celled organisms outperformed the other single-celled organisms.

Tide comes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication there.

You can't explain that!

>>3374892
>...to a single cell
Unlikely, several random mutations over a lot of generations is more likely.

>your[sic] talking about multicell evolution please stay on topic
I only replied to what you're talking about.
You said:
>the next generation would now be cooperative whole which is then turned into animals
If you go off topic, I'll follow you off.

>>3374764

>I am a foreign exchange student from china and even though I dont have full understanding of english language I can tell you our average 3rd greaders have a higher mathematics understanding than your 12th graders! think about that hahhaa

Doesn't change the fact that you and they are from China, so...yeah.

Good luck with that.

>>3374877

>you never asked a question to me

>>Denies avoiding the question

>you simply asked about the bible and dawkins

>>Affirmed the existence of the question

>original post

>>What?

Why do you keep embarrassing yourself?