/sci/ - Science & Math

is bottle the best shape for algae?

>>3290906

No, a coil would be ideal as it maximizes the algae's exposure to the dissolved air. Pic related, an alage biocoil. But that's significantly more complex and expensive to build for relatively little gain.

This:
>>3290906

Something with more surface area is better than just a bottle. I would either use some other shape that would maximise the time the air takes to the surface, or install blocks in the bottles to make the air split up to smalle pieces.
Mesh or something like that.

>hurr
>using red LEDs as light source for algae

This is the same principle but a different configuration, more or less identical to what I plan to build. Much cheaper as it uses recycled drink containers rather than hundreds of feet of wide gauge transparent tubing.

Awesome plan, except I doubt there's any way that any sane amount of algae bottles are going to keep up with a candle. I would think a candle would produce a whole lot more CO2 than one or three hampsters -- have you found any numbers for any of these rates?

>>3290921

>>or install blocks in the bottles to make the air split up to smalle pieces.

That's what the airstone does.

This looks like a fun and useful project.
I also really like the fact that it is being done by someone who sees " ethical weight" in working with hamsters.
Results I would be interested in hearing:
necessary resources for maintaining a given mass of hamster.(ie, 1 kilo of hamster= X liters of alge water and Y amp hours of electricity.

Note: have you considered a more natural ecosystem? light the area where plants and hampsters live together so that the plants feed the hampsters and the hamster poop feeds the plants?

>>3290930

>>have you found any numbers for any of these rates?

The math for the original 1 hamster habitat (Hampture Mk.II, seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05pkg0DuPNQ ) worked out such that the air pump's flow rate as stated by the manufacturer could sustain 15 dwarf hamsters. That's not much help as the issue for this project isn't the flow rate, but the CO2 absorption/oxygen production capacity of the algae per bottle.

If anyone can get me started on how to do those calculations it'd be much appreciated, else I'll wind up having to scour the net for the applicable figures and formulas like last time. No biggie, it'd just take longer.

what about heating? what will be the temperature x feet down underwater? will it get too cold?

>>3290940
>hamster poop feeds the plants
might be a good idea, but the hamster would have to live on a screen.

If you have the co2 detector use carbonated beverages and kg them diffuse. That'd be a more realistic rate.

>>3290940

>>light the area where plants and hampsters live together so that the plants feed the hampsters and the hamster poop feeds the plants?

I have, but:

#1. Hamsters are nocturnal burrowing creatures. Living in a dimly lit network of chambers and tunnels is something they're uniquely suited to and comfortable with.

#2. As you can see from this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05pkg0DuPNQ the amount of light that penetrates the water, even when murky, is more than sufficient for the hamster's needs.

#3. Terrestrial plants have much worse efficiency than blue-green algae, which is why I've gone with the algae. To do this with terrestrial plants would require a car-sized enclosure.

>>3290950
but you could make a slanted platform so that the poop will roll downward through a slit into a receptacle.

>>3290949

>>what about heating? what will be the temperature x feet down underwater? will it get too cold?

As seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05pkg0DuPNQ The original Hampture Mk.II had a resistive heating pad. The hamster could regulate his own temperature by moving closer to/further from it. He didn't seem to mind the temperature enough to budge.

These are all concerns I had to answer many many times during the course of the Hampture Mk.II project.

>>3290895

My thought is this:
I think you should draw more of them comics. I find them amusing.

>>3290964

I'm tired of that. Please don't push me. I'm more into DIY projects as of late.

>>3290895
Make sure your container can handle the heat of the flame.

Weren't you talking about maybe buying an RC submarine and using it to cruise around this hamster city thing at some point? That sounded cool.

OP, did any of your hamsters die or were harmed during the experiment?

>>3290967
>>3290964

wait a sec are you that lego robot guy?

>>3290967

Alright.
Welp, unfortunately I don't know anything about DIY engineering, so I don't really know what to say.

But what if the hamsters reject objectivism? Do you run some program where you try to indoctinate the first generation in hope that they will pass their values onto their offspring?

>>3290981

Nope, 5 hours under a lake at 4 feet and 20 minutes at 8 feet without incident. I took every precaution, as the people following the project would accept no less. Hell, if I'd give into every demand, the habitat would've wound up with a jacuzzi and casino.

>>3290986

Yes, but this thread is about the Hampture Mk.III project.

instead of a candle I suggest using a lighter.

More controlled output will be easier to measure.

>>3290992

wow just wanna say that i think your comics were hilarious and i really liked those few with that guy who turns into a monster.

do you live close to a lake/pond? or are you just gonna plug the power into someone's garage without them knowing?

>>3290994

Excellent suggestion. I'll be on the lookout for a lighter that has a switch instead of a button so it can stay lit without being held.

>>3290987
wat?

>>3291004

>>wow just wanna say that i think your comics were hilarious and i really liked those few with that guy who turns into a monster.

Very much appreciated, don't think it's not, I'm just a stickler about staying on topic.

>>do you live close to a lake/pond? or are you just gonna plug the power into someone's garage without them knowing?

I've got a pond out back, although it's not very deep. Ultimately I'd like to put it in about 7 or 8 feet of water, for which I'll need a lake. There's one nearby in a park but I'd need a way of hiding the bulky battery pack that keeps the heater pads, led lights, air pump, etc. running.

>>3291022
>7 or 8 feet of water
Why that deep? What does that accomplish?

>>3291029
just cooler probly

>>3291029

>>Why that deep? What does that accomplish?

If I'm going to do this at all it may as well be a respectable depth. 8 feet is the maximum depth that the pump will push air down to, and the cinderblocks weighing the habitat down will elevate it about a foot off the lake bed. So the water depth should be 8 feet, but the pump will only be pushing air down 7 feet or so. Seems like a good precaution.

How deep would you put it?

>LED grow lights

>>3291034

I can't fit a halide bulb in there, and the power requirements would be too much for remote use w/battery pack.

LED grow lights are popular and in wide use. They work fine, whether that's intuitive or not. Red and blue are absorbed most readily, but I'll probably wind up using blue for the greater water penetration.

Btw, here's the current layout, with the enclosures cut to accommodate the acrylic tubes. They'll be screwed down to a wooden platform mounted on cinderblocks, which I just recently picked up.

>>3291033
I would make the whole thing entirely closed system, which means putting the water source for the hamsters inside the container. This would eliminate the need to put the whole setup under water.

>>3291060

>>This would eliminate the need to put the whole setup under water.

....But....that's kind of....the entire point of it.

>>3291052
How are you routing the air through those four chambers?

>>3291060

>>3291076

The pump has two air outputs. One of the tubes will feed air in to the left most enclosure, and the other tube will feed air into the right most enclosure. The third outer enclosure will have an output with a 1-way valve, for venting stagnant air out into the water. This layout forces fresh air to traverse the entire interior before venting into the water.

>>3291084
holy shit, you're the comic guy too?
you are, in every sense of the word, awesome.

Hey OP, where do you get the algae? And do you know where I could find instructions on how to build one of these myself?

>>3290948
I'm happy to do my part for science. Though we don't see eye-to-eye when discussing philosophy, I certainly commend you for these projects.

using 700 to 800 ml of 1.1 to 1.5% packed volume of Chlorella pyrenoidosa
with a CO2 concentration of 2% and O2 concentration of 20%:
CO2 consumption = 1.023 ml/min
O2 production 1.12 ml/min
source: http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/14/4/552.pdf

From my own rough calculation, small candle CO2 production: 60 ml / min

Hamster O2 consumption: 2.5 ml / min (resting), 5.0 ml/min (exercising).
source: http://books.google.com/books?id=PKxPVW25SUYC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=hamster+co2+consumptio
n&source=bl&ots=fnLrzaMowQ&sig=0Vk9JFw3PWbbWBQy9f1ECj2sngw&hl=en&ei=EdEHTtiHFojk
0QHLoKy8DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&
q&f=false

I've got the first bottle set up and running. I can probably just use cat poop to feed the algae, right?

>>3291067

You still haven't explain the point of your project, and I don't want to read through your hundreds of blog posts to find it.

>>3291181

Excellent, very helpful. But I see hamster O2 consumption, and candle CO2 production, but not hamster CO2 production and candle O2 consumption. Is it identical for each?

From the figures you have presented it seems as though 18-20 bottles, total, ought to sustain three hamsters with a safe excess capacity. Is that about right?

>>3291187
My assumption would be that the volume of O2 consumption/production and CO2 production/consumption will be very close in all cases, as they are for the algae. I think it's safe to assume for your estimating purposes that they are the same.

>>3291188

Affordable small scale prototyping of a habitat/life support system that could be scaled up for human use. I started out learning about undersea habitat design by building working models and from there I've been adding scaled down versions of alternative support mechanisms like solar powered compressor buoys and now this algae bioreactor.

It's a fun project, a learning experience, and applicable to the experiment I'll be performing aboard a 4 man habitat 25 feet deep off the east coast of Florida in 2012.

>>3291189
These are 2 liter bottles? so you're talking about 40 liters, so at least 40 ml/min of gas conversion if you have at least 1% algae packed volume. Three hamsters mostly resting wouldn't need more than 10 ml/min. Sounds about right, except I have no idea how to track how much of your algae is alive and what algae concentration you have. But it seems like a reasonable number of bottles to me.

>>3291199

>experiment I'll be performing aboard a 4 man habitat 25 feet deep off the east coast of Florida in 2012.

Holy shit that sounds awesome.

Also, please see:
>>3291179

I'm very interested in the specifics of how these work. How to build them/where to get the components, how much light they need, how much oxygen they produce, ect.

>>3291199
The problem is that your prototype won't work in sea water.

>>3291227
why? I assume Buoyancy could be an issue, but other than that sea water shouldn't act any differently.

hey scientist
you mad?

>>3291309

>>3291217

>>I'm very interested in the specifics of how these work. How to build them/where to get the components, how much light they need, how much oxygen they produce, ect.

http://www.instructables.com/id/An-Algae-Bioreactor-from-Recycled-Water-Bottles/

http://www.instructables.com/id/Solar-powered-algae-bioreactor/

>>The problem is that your prototype won't work in sea water.

Sure it will. It's a closed system using fresh water. Sea water never enters the bottles. The only difference between my system and Lloyd Godson's is that mine is designed to sit on the lake/sea floor outside the habitat rather than inside, taking up space needed by humans.

That's a big part of the rationale for this experiment. Every habitat life support system I've ever seen that used algae or terrestrial plants assumed it would all be interior. And since bioregenerative system take up huge amounts of space just for enough plants to support one person it means much larger, costlier habitats. It's stupid. I figure, why not design it so that the plant based life support stuff can function outside of the habitat? It doesn't have the same needs a human does. This way it can be as big as it needs to be to support any number of human beings without having to scale up the much more expensive human rated habitat along with it.

I'm not the brightest guy in the world. I don't have the qualifications some people who post on here do. But I think I've hit on an idea that's a definite improvement over current methods, and I'm going to take the steps that are within my means to test it out.

As far as energy goes take advantage of underwater currents and make a "currentmill". That is if this will be underwater in an ocean. If not you could always go with solar power.

Some prior efforts that inspired me: the famous scuba cat. Apparently the prototype suit cost $20,000 to build. It's a sobering reminder of how mass production makes the prices we pay for most goods as low as they are.

The inventor also has a similar suit for his dog, and both pets enjoy diving as they each have disabilities (the cat is overweight for horomonal reasons, the dog has joint pains) that are relieved by the weightlessness of water.

Bizarre, but neat stuff.

...And here's the guy's dog, looking pretty ambivalent about being underwater.

>>3291381
>underwater

How far underwater? Algae need light :::(

>>3291381
>>3291227
I don't think hamsters like to drink salt water.

>>3291619

Oh, that. Well yeah, but this is going in a lake.

how are you going to feed the rodent?

>>3291634

>>how are you going to feed the rodent?

Each room has a lid with a silicone seal. I can bring the whole habitat to the surface periodically to refill the food dish. This is less than optimal but by overstocking the food section with a month+ supply I can at least avoid doing it very often. I've considered a thick tube to the surface for pushing fine grained hamster food down but that's a crude obtrustive approach and I'm going to avoid it unless I ever plan to put the hamsters underwater long enough that it's necessary.

>>3291647
But wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having a self contained bio-cube? If it were the real Rapture you couldn't go back and fourth for supplies every few weeks. You need a better system.

>>3291622
Water is going to seep in gradually through the tube and hamster will eventually drown.

OP this is absolutely awesome! Bio major here and I love to see stuff like this. Best of luck and if possible, post some pics and shit from that 4 man underwater thing in 2012 you are doing.

>>3291647
On the large scale you won't need to worry about this. Growing kelp for food is a great way to keep one of these bio domes self-contained, as well as keeping a very loosely controlled fish farm. Do you agree?

>>3291663
I think the idea is to overcome one obstacle at a time. Some future version could maybe include grasses and insects and worms, for the hams to graze on, but it would be unwise to try to tackle everything at once.

>>3291663

>>But wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having a self contained bio-cube? If it were the real Rapture you couldn't go back and fourth for supplies every few weeks. You need a better system.

It's not the real rapture, and this system was never intended to stay down permanently.

>>3291670

>>Water is going to seep in gradually through the tube and hamster will eventually drown.

Never happens in any ambient pressure habitat. There's a slight overpressure inside and as a result, air bubbles out, but water cannot get in, even with a poor seal.

Is the air pump absolutely necessary? Wouldn't the plants taking in the CO2 and releasing the oxygen be enough to take care of air circulation? You should try testing this for a week or so on dry land and see how the experiment goes. Or just pump some CO2 into your tank, let the algae do its thing and test the rate at which the algae actually filters out the CO2. You want to minimize power usage so this is just a thought.

>>3291724

>>Is the air pump absolutely necessary?

Yes, for circulation.

>>Wouldn't the plants taking in the CO2 and releasing the oxygen be enough to take care of air circulation?

No, it would just result in the bottles containing very high oxygen levels and the enclosure containing lethally high CO2 levels. Gases do not circulate by themselves.

>>You should try testing this for a week or so on dry land and see how the experiment goes.

Definitely, using a candle as discussed.

>>Or just pump some CO2 into your tank, let the algae do its thing and test the rate at which the algae actually filters out the CO2. You want to minimize power usage so this is just a thought.

Thanks for the ideas.

Do you know how much air a hamster needs? Do you know the rate at which the algae produces O2? Do you know what happens when the algae runs out of nutrients and how long it will take (shit doesn't live on CO2 and water alone)?

>>3291738
No problem, I figured you looked into the idea I just thought it was worth putting in some input. Also, you may want to put the fresh air input at the top and the stagnant air output at the bottom with a casing around it so you can make this as efficient as possible. No sense in taking in oxygen that has just been pumped into the set-up when you can take in almost pure CO2 that lies at the bottom.

>>3291751

See: >>3291181

I'll be double checking his sources but I have no reason to believe he'd mislead me. And I'll be testing the system with a candle that consumes oxygen far faster than three hamsters, so when the system's ready it'll be overkill.

>>3291753

>>No sense in taking in oxygen that has just been pumped into the set-up when you can take in almost pure CO2 that lies at the bottom.

I had this idea too but a bit of research revealed that the weight differences between the two gases are such that under ordinary conditions they don't separate that cleanly and are in fact very much mixed together in the air we breathe.

>>3291723
>There's a slight overpressure inside and as a result, air bubbles out, but water cannot get in, even with a poor seal.

How can you maintain the pressure if air goes out but nothing comes in?

>>3291875

>>How can you maintain the pressure if air goes out but nothing comes in?

More air is always coming in via the surface pump. Unless you're talking about the algae-only model in which case the water pressure itself strengthens the seal by pushing on it. These cases are designed for underwater use in the first place.

Also, thanks for the $5 donation, whoever that was. :D That's going towards the battery pack that will be used to run all of this stuff in a remote lakeside location. I've already got a nice big folding 30 watt solar panel array to keep the battery charged during the day but I might have to up the battery to 78ah or so to make it last overnight and through the occasional cloudy day.

I've just begun bolting down the enclosures btw.

>>3291902
I was talking about the algae-only model. Since the cases reduce in volume to compensate for the loss of air in order to maintain pressure, a point will eventually be reached where the volume of the cases can't go any smaller without killing the hamsters. How are you going to handle this?

>>3291929

>>Since the cases reduce in volume to compensate for the loss of air in order to maintain pressure, a point will eventually be reached where the volume of the cases can't go any smaller without killing the hamsters. How are you going to handle this?

.....You're....suggesting that the enclosures.....will shrink over time? Am I being trolled?

You'll probably get a problem where you have algae growing on the LED strips inside the bottle, better to have inside and outside lighting. Or lighting where you can focus it to a point somewhere inside the bottle.

>>3291929
This isn't deep sea diving, anon.

>>3291944

Hmmm, very good idea. Some kind of flexible led panel I could wrap around the bottle would be ideal. Does that exist?

Have the hamsters eat the algae, the algae eat the hamster droppings and the excersize wheel connected to a kinetic motor to power a battery running the air sump :D.

>>3291972
I thought of that too, but I don't know if the hams would eat algae.

>>3291957
I've used these guys before -- quality products and reasonable prices:
http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&Page2Disp=%2Flight_bars.h
tm

>>3291939
No, not trolling. Just wanted some clarification. According to the picture for the freshwater model, there's only one opening to the lake outside. If air bubbles go out, water must either go in and/or the cases must reduce in volume to maintain pressure. There's probably a point at which the deformation of the cases can't go any further. At that point, the hamsters can't drink any more water because of back pressure. Unless there's something I've missed, there's no way that setup is going to work.

>>3291957
probably not cheap...
Or, you could just have outside lighting with warped mirrored plastic, or something just reflective behind it.
Like a car headlight.

Hi OP, I wanted to ask you which CO2 sensor are you using? And is it possible to broadcast the data in realtime on the internet with the live stream? If not maybe someone on /sci/ or /g/ might be able to help.
Please do continue updating us with the progress.
PS check out this really cool heartbeat sensor for the hamster.
sparkfun(dot)com/products/8660

>>3291988
for example this one... $20, waterproof, 12v, comes in any color led's -- they even have UV/blacklight.

>>3291998
But algae, grime, and mold might get on the outside LEDs.

>>3291181
>O2 production 1.12 ml/min

Has anyone done the calculations for the optical spectral power required for such a O2 production?
Is it even possible for a standard LED array to deliver the energy required for the claimed photosynthesis?

>>3291738 Gases do not circulate by themselves.

what about equilibrium? I thought almost everything naturally moved down the concentration gradient.

>>3292050
Then several smaller tubes within a bottle. Should do the trick.

>>3292074

Way, way too slow to maintain homogeneity.

>>3292074
I think the design is such that CO2 has to be pumped to the bottom of the algae chamber which definitely requires a pump to work.
In theory it is possible to just pass CO2 near the top of the algae and allowed to diffuse but the yield would be too low.

I think a waterproof LED strip should be fine. And I'll always have the surface pump as backup in case the system is insufficient or loses capacity over time and the CO2 levels start to rise.

>>3292068
This is a good question. Can someone better at chemistry than me identify how much energy is needed per mole of oxygen product in the photosynthesis reaction?

http://gardenpool.org/

>>3292105
64atp?

Okay, decision time: There is only one webcam in the budget, which room do i put it in? Exercise room, feeding room, bedroom or garden?

>>3292230
Feeding.

>>3292235

Any particular reason? I guess that'd be useful for monitoring food supply...Then again I could put the food in the exercise room and have two rooms set aside so the ham hams have some private space.

BTW, just finished all major assembly. Every enclosure is bolted down and the acrylic tunnels are in place with silicone sealant where they pass through the enclosure walls, and more silicone sealant over all the screws that go through the floor and secure the enclosures to the platform. The exercise wheel base is glued down, and it's all drying outside as we speak. Should be done by tomorrow and ready for installation of the air hoses, water nozzle, etc.

Realistically I'll be done either tomorrow or the day after. The algae upgrade will take another week or two at least but I could have the habitat deployed with a traditional surface pump very, very soon.

>>3292243
Ever consider hooking up a dynamo to the exercise wheel? I do realize that it wouldn't produce a useable amount of power, but maybe you could put a small rechargeable battery in there along with the exercise-wheel dynamo for shits n giggles to help power the pump/LEDs.
I guess mostly just because it's cool, lol

>>3292265

I'm considering it, yeah. But more focused on features like solar power and video streaming so it can be operated remotely and you guys can watch. When I have all the major features taken care of I'll definitely start looking into stuff like that.

>>3292272
Cool. When you do get the algae CO2 scrubber system working, how long at a time do you plan on having the habitat submerged?
And when you've worked out the current design, do you plan on adding more stuff to it?
Make an underwater semi self sufficient hamster city?
Cruise around in an RC sub watching your hamsters go about their daily business?
Very cool stuff btw

So with the solar panels etc, are you going to have those on shore or anchored and floating directly above the habitat? And what's the max depth you're ever going to put the thing at?
I bet that hamster leads an interesting life
(For a hamster)

>>3292292

>>Cool. When you do get the algae CO2 scrubber system working, how long at a time do you plan on having the habitat submerged?

Probably a few hours at first, then a day, then a week or so. Just to establish reliability. After that I'll only bring it up to clean out the litter and replenish the food.

>>And when you've worked out the current design, do you plan on adding more stuff to it?

Sure.

>>Make an underwater semi self sufficient hamster city?

I don't plan on making any larger habitats than this. It was a pain to finish as-is. I have another habitat that I used before this one, I may sink that nearby as a sort of independent observation outpost. Maybe stick a webcam in it looking out into the water, give it a nice view overlooking the larger habitat.

>>Cruise around in an RC sub watching your hamsters go about their daily business?

Donations permitting, yeah. I even have a sub picked out, the Thunder Tiger Neptune: http://www.worldhobby.net/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29900 It comes with a camera in the nose and a real hydrostatic ballast system like an actual submarine (most RC subs just dive using the angled diving planes and will surface if not kept moving forward. This one can alter its buoyancy to whatever you desire and hover at a specific depth.)

It'd be a bitch getting it operable over the internet but I have a friend who can help with that (Arduino stuff) and being able to patrol the habitat waters would be pretty killer.

>>3292298

>>So with the solar panels etc, are you going to have those on shore or anchored and floating directly above the habitat?

On the shore, since they will be feeding a very large, heavy battery pack necessary to keep everything running overnight.

>>And what's the max depth you're ever going to put the thing at?

8 feet. The cinderblock supports will elevate it about a foot off the lakebed, so the habitat itself will be roughly 7 feet deep. Which is good, since the pump is rated for 8 feet max.

>>I bet that hamster leads an interesting life (For a hamster)

Of course. He chose the impossible.

>>3292292
Brilliant!

op how old are you and what have you studied?`

>>3292465

27, 3d modeling.

>>3292468

what kind of major is 3d modeling ?`

>>3292481

Covered CGI for movies, game asset production and technical hard surface modeling for architectural design. Maya, CAD, 3DS, mudbox, etc.

Hey OP, how much would you need for your budget to reach it's necessities? I might be able to donate some.

Cool, I thought hampture was dead.

What's the body count so far?

Still no submarines for the hamster, OP?
When, OP? Fucking when?!

incase i am to late to state this already,
algae uses photsynthesis to create the oxygen, and if most of the hampture project is submerged in the water and the light is dimmed, it wont work, thus requiring to be on the surface.

i very much wish my main interest could easily translate into a cool small scale hobby project

sigh

>>3292948
so much sigh

>>3292948
If you are in university, find a professor willing to vouch for you and sign up for RSICC at ONL. There you can get neutronics and thermalhydraulic simulation codes so you can stop fucking around with MSPaint. I would suggest the suite of NRC sim codes, but they are awfully directed at light water reactors, -- RELAP5 and TRACE are great all around thermal hydraulic codes though.

bumping hamster sealab

I'm pumped that you're actually following through with this!

>>3293144
> I would suggest the suite of NRC sim codes, but they are awfully directed at light water reactors
ouch
that's going to be a problem
since LFTR is a liquid fuel system, and that plays havok with simulations assuming solid fuel

it might be fun to emulate the sim code within Unity3D and design a virtual power plant simulator that you can then do things to, like take pipes out, and see what happens.