/sci/ - Science & Math

3/10

>>3261172
because americans would rather spend the money on cheeseburgers and fries.

>>3261172
surely Poland can do it

Which resources are there on Mars that make life there sustainable on it's own? What commercial benefits are begotten when one colonizes Mars?

Yes, offcourse there is a lot of space there but why live there if there isn't anything to live on?

>if we spent 1.5 Trillion on the space program for JUST ONE FUCKING YEAR

Why?

It's a pointless exercise.

>>3261172
Hey OP I'm from the EU (Netherlands) and its really not that bad financially. Europes finances are better than the U.S. and Europe actually has higher technology than america. Don't count an EU space program out, we're about to develope all kinds of new stuff with the Russians that will be vastly superior to anything amerifats posses, including the space shuttle (which is retiring LOL)

>>3261206

Een nederlander op mijn /sci/?!

Waar studeer je? Leiden/Delft hier

>>3261192
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Direct

>>in situ resource utilization

also read this book

>>3261212
Kernfysica

>>3261196
as long as those banks and corporations are bailed out. that's what really matters.

>>3261192

>>Yes, offcourse there is a lot of space there but why live there if there isn't anything to live on?

You think there isn't? How much reading have you done on the topic? Mars actually contains all of the elements necessary to make rocket fuel, air, water, and to power nuclear reactors.

Watch "The Mars Underground" for a more in depth explanation.

When idiots stop think Mars is the first step in viable space colonization, we'll be able to get something done

How's summer vacation going for you op? Did you enjoy your last day of middle school?

>>3261232
ya we should go to the sun. there's more energy there.

>>3261232

Venus has better prospects for colonization that Mars does by the way

>>3261232

>>When idiots stop think

Lol.

Mars contains key minerals not found on the moon which are necessary for complete self sufficiency.

>>3261233

>>Venus has better prospects for colonization that Mars does by the way

No, it's much too hot. Lead and glass literally melt on the surface.

wow you limp dicked science majors are pretty butt-hurt right now.

>>3261172 rich enough
That's a rather funny expression for bancruptcy.

>>3261172
Obama is the messiah OP how dare you insult him

You'll never leave Earth

>>3261172
The technologies are already out there. But let's have a glimpse of the situation in this perspective:

USA: Big, powerful and stuck in Afghanistan, Iraq now in Libya and god knows where else. It's clear it's not in US interests but well, every country has it's lobbyist groups inside. So US can't afford it, not with all the lobbyist groups.

China/far east in general: Powerful manufacturing, massive technological leap but why rush now? If they wait a decade or two Mars is not going to run away. Instead they might achieve it with much less effort. Also they currently don't need to demonstrate their power - if they do so, then they might stuck in cold/political war with US - why risk it...

Russia: The brains are out there, but that's all. Manufacturers and politicians are driving crazy engineers and scientists by their persistent theft from any scientific budget set up. Politicians have their families already in London so why should they care about Russia...

EU: We can see that it's not about space program here, several countries have bankrupted economies. Here it's about pure survival. Not about exploration of far worlds...

Africa: They might become an industrial continent if everybody puts his ass out there and stops colonizing them. It's clear they aren't independent if internal government issues are messed up by bombing runs in the name of "freedom and democracy".

Rest of the world: they frankly don't care - and never cared about space exploration and most likely if anyone ever will care about space he/she will go somewhere else were might be some space related ambitions. So we can say that they will never care about space...

It seems there isn't anyone interested in Mars colonization - especially because there is just a desert. And even farming would be so expensive that it would outrun in price the "Bio Organic Green Fairtrade" products on Earth by a factor of 10000.

>>3261310

Op samefagging it up.

sage

>>3261172
come on OP you can't make right brainers butthurt like that. They'll just go insane.

>>3261243
Pretty sure he was talking about those atmospheric habitats. Due to the atmosphere on Venus you can basically live in a giant balloon-habitat, and I think /sci/ has said before that there is oxygen in the upper layers.

Still, it would be a bitch to get materials there.

>Just think if we spent 1.5 Trillion on the space program for JUST ONE FUCKING YEAR we could have a self sustaining colony on Mars by 2020.

No.

We would likely have a space elevator, a 100,000-strong city in the Sea of Tranquility, a large self-sustaining colony on Mars as well as countless L5 and GEO O'Neill cylinders, not to mention bases on every single moon and protoplanet above 500km in diameter.

Also, Mars-buff here. Ask me anything.

>>3261333

No. Shit doesn't just magically appear if you throw money at it.

Also, how would you vegetate Mars?

Why should anyone even want to colonize Mars? What is the possible gain?

>>3261361

>>Why should anyone even want to colonize Mars? What is the possible gain?

We don't all die in an asteroid fucks up Earth.

>>3261350
Warm it up (several ways of doing it, won't get deep into it) but preferably reflecting additional sunlight. As CO2 sublimates from the ground we get a thicker warmer atmosphere, and the permafrost which is abundant in latitude as far south as 50' which creates oceans, clouds etc.

Seed with engineered algae EVERYWHERE to begin conversion of CO2 into O2, as well as to begin creating top soil. Much of the dust and sand should wash down into the lower elevations from the rapid winds and rainstorms, so that won't be too much of a problem.

But yeah, algae/lichen as much as you can until you have pockets of environments that can begin supporting grasses and more complex plants, leading up to small hardy mountain trees.

>>3261367
Large meteorites fisted Earth's ass multipple times and life is still there.

>>3261361

>>3261379
Large meteorites fisted Earth up the ass and most of the large organisms died. Think of humanity today, and then think of a 6km wide asteroid punching into southwest Mongolia. Do you HONESTLY think we're going to have any semblance of civilization after that, if we're lucky enough to survive?

>>3261367
asteroid defection isn't that hard when compared with colonisation.

>>3261379

>>Large meteorites fisted Earth's ass multipple times and life is still there.

You are missing the point, big time. Life would persist. We, humanity, would not.

>>3261387
SpaceGuard is not foolproof.

All civilizations become spacefaring or extinct.

>>3261387

>>asteroid defection isn't that hard when compared with colonisation.

Asteroid deflection with several decades worth of advance notice, yes.

Asteroid deflection with a few months or weeks notice, no.

We only fund efforts to monitor a very small portion of the sky at a time for asteroids. If one hits us, odds are it will be one we don't see coming.

>>3261172
Man, we can barely keep people alive on the most hospitable planet in the solar system. What the fuck makes you think we should go to mars rather than fix what we have here? It'd be a thousand times more difficult.

>>3261382
>>3261382

i like that a lot, what's it from?

>>3261404
We know EXACTLY how the fuck to feed every single person, how to give every single person on the planet a BETTER standard of living than most get in first world countries. What you completely fail to realize is that space is EXACTLY the thing which will kick our ass into gear, simply because of the resources we can obtain. Take a look at the amount of energy the sun outputs. Take a look at the thousands upon thousands of asteroids that we KNOW have thousands and thousands of tonnes of Platinum, Iridium, everything we use to create modern electronics.

Please, everyone, watch this. It sums up how I feel about this entire affair perfectly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bIQLiKi3g

>>3261406
I don't know. A person once told me when I asked but I have forgotten.

>>3261415
Learn to economics.
It's much cheaper to get that stuff here on earth.
World is not only about resources, it's about money, time and labour. Resources come only after that.
Dealwithit.gif

>>3261415
>Take a look at the thousands upon thousands of asteroids that we KNOW have thousands and thousands of tonnes of Platinum, Iridium,

....Tilium

>>3261430

>>It's much cheaper to get that stuff here on earth.

The initial cost of setting up automated mining facilities on asteroids would be recouped over a very long period by profits.

Harvesting space resources is inevitable as our appetite for technology never stops growing, and the Earth has finite supplies of metals which exist in abundance in asteroids and on other planets.

>>3261430
>It's much cheaper to get that stuff here on earth.
Not for long.
The technology:
http://techland.time.com/2011/04/06/spacexs-falcon-heavy-most-powerful-private-rocket-ever/
http://www.universetoday.com/73536/nasa-considering-rail-gun-launch-system-to-the-stars/
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article4799369.ece

Oh, perhaps I should've specified exactly how much we can gain:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining
>At 1997 prices, a relatively small metallic asteroid with a diameter of 1 mile contains more than $20 trillion US dollars worth of industrial and precious metals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_Earth_Objects#Near-Earth_asteroids
>As of May 2010, 7,075 near-Earth asteroids are known,[14] ranging in size up to ~32 kilometers (1036 Ganymed).[16] The number of near-Earth asteroids over one kilometer in diameter is estimated to be 500 - 1,000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%286178%29_1986_DA
>Asteroid 1986 DA achieved its most notable recognition when scientists revealed that it contained over "10,000 tons of gold and 100,000 tons of platinum", or an approximate value at the time of its discovery of "$90 billion for the gold and a cool trillion dollars for the platinum, plus loose change for the asteroid's 10 billion tons of iron and a billion tons of nickel."[3]

>World is not only about resources, it's about money, time and labour. Resources come only after that.
Your race is a dying breed.

sup

>>3261441
If you bring down 10,000 tons of gold and 100,000 tons of platinum you will end up bringing down something that is worth something along the lines of regular rock.

Not to mention the costs involved and the capital investment needed.

>Your race is a dying breed.
I would say that we are the most succesfull and you will work for us when we decide it's time to go to space but what ever you say peasant.

Here in earth we have actual problems that need our attention today. I would much rather fix those problems when there still is a chance.
Starvation, war, conflict, pollution, global warming, education, heatlhcare... the list goes on and on.
I would fix the world for people that are already here than worry about about distant future.

>>3261479

>>Not to mention the costs involved and the capital investment needed.

How is this a strike against it? That's what progress IS, accomplishing increasingly elaborate, decadent, ambitious, technically challenging things in order to move civilization steadily forward.

I don't get the "That's too advanced, too elaborate, too challenging and costly, we should never attempt that" attitude. Why don't you go back to the caves?

>>3261479
>If you bring down 10,000 tons of gold and 100,000 tons of platinum you will end up bringing down something that is worth something along the lines of regular rock.

But initially, no. Just enough to recoup what was spent and a bit more.

You act as if this is horrible. God forbid an incredibly useful bunch of metals become abundant and force the price down on pretty much every kind of modern electronics imaginable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium#History
>It was once considered a precious metal more valuable than gold. Napoleon III, Emperor of France, is reputed to have given a banquet where the most honoured guests were given aluminium utensils, while the others made do with gold.[46][47] The Washington Monument was completed, with the 100 ounce (2.8 kg) aluminium capstone being put in place on December 6, 1884, in an elaborate dedication ceremony. It was the largest single piece of aluminium cast at the time, when aluminium was as expensive as silver.[48] Aluminium has been produced in commercial quantities for just over 100 years.

>>3261523
Cont...

>I would say that we are the most succesfull and you will work for us when we decide it's time to go to space but what ever you say peasant.
Let's see, every time a technology becomes available that can achieve near post-scarcity proportions, the previous system has to fight tooth-and-nail to halt its progress (see: every form of file transfer everywhere because of the internet) and it has already begun moving into the realm of the physical. 3D printing? It's dropping in price rapidly. Now we can print in hard metals. And don't even get me started on the guys trying to get up molecular assemblers.

>Starvation,
Vertical farms
>war,
You mean we have to wait to expand into space after we abolish war? Fuck off.
>pollution,
Electric cars, LFTR's and space-based solar power (WHICH OH WOW, WE COULD DO IF WE HAD ANY MEANINGFUL SPACE INFRASTRUCTURE)
>global warming,
See above.
>education,
Appoint Salman Khan as Education Minister of the World
>heatlhcare...
Not everywhere is America, and if you're talking about the rest of the world, perhaps you should step back and consider how much of a revolution there would be in living standards and most of all health in poorer countries if suddenly SHIT DIDN'T COST A LOT OF MONEY. This is not a zero-sum game, we can do both. And perhaps you should search up on all the medical breakthroughs due to technology developed by NASA.

>I would fix the world for people that are already here than worry about about distant future.
You fuck, two birds with one stone. And I don't want to deal with millions of you ignorant luddites fucking up the future I will likely be living in.

ITT and all threads about terraforming and whatnot:

>>Guise, it's minan tiem.
>>Naw dawg, we ain't got enough paper notes with numbers on 'em to do that.
>>Oh, I see. That makes perfect sense.

FFFFUUUU-

>>3261496
No, progress is not that.

We can mine here on earth with x per kg while in space that would cost 5x.

Who will finance this?
Who will buy your stuff?
What is the point in that?

I tell you what progress is:
It's when we find out a way to make something better or bigger or cheaper.
Progress is not dick waving and burning money.

>we should never attempt that
>never
When did i use the word never?
Of course it will happen some day.
It will happen when there is the need and the money to do it.
That moment is not now.

The OP's idea to spend massive amounts of money to achieve little is just not really good.


We could do it, sure, but there are more important places to put our money and labour.
Like these fixing these:
>Starvation, war, conflict, pollution, global warming, education, heatlhcare...

>>3261479
>If you bring down 10,000 tons of gold and 100,000 tons of platinum you will end up bringing down something that is worth something along the lines of regular rock.

>Not to mention the costs involved and the capital investment needed.
Note that this is precisely the reason that it would not destroy the price of these metals. If shit costs billions of dollars to retrieve, it doesn't matter how much of it there is, the price will not drop out from under the cost to acquire it.

>>3261541
This is true. And it is quite infuriating.

>>3261545

>>We can mine here on earth with x per kg while in space that would cost 5x.

We don't have to keep buying the mining equipment over and over. It is a one time cost.

>>Who will finance this?

Mining companies.

>>Who will buy your stuff?

Everyone who is currently a consumer of precious metals.

>>What is the point in that?

expanding our ability to draw in resources from outside of the Earth to sustain an ever increasing quality of life in spite of population growth.

>>3261545

Most of those cannot be solved under a Capitalistic system and those which can would be solved by the influx of wealth from asteroid mining.

>>3261564
...That was a beautifully put sentence. Short too.

>>3261523
Then who will pay for it if there is no profit.

>>3261527
... Who will pay for that stuff?

Your argument is basically this:

We should do everything and put the cost on my magic account, it has limitless credit.

Nigga please.
Instead of shouting vertical farming and space tell me where the money to do this comes from. That will make me happy.

>ignorant luddites
>Seriously calls me ignorant
>Calls me luddite
You don't seem to realize than i'm not opposed of technological advancement.

What i'm against is that we do it so that couple of dudes are happy and the rest of the world starves.

You don't seem to realize that with the money you are planning to dump on now worthless gold we could use it to do actual science that helps us.

There are more pressing issues than space.

>>3261238

Venus is a better prospect for one, we should focus on building artificial habitats first and colonizing closer NEOs before we venture out much further. Its really silly to go straight for a planet, just because of the distance.

>>3261556
>It is a one time cost.
No it's not

>Mining companies.
Go on.. Are you planning to buy these mining companies and force them to do things on a loss?

>Everyone who is currently a consumer of precious metals.
Ahh.. So the companies just roll the cost to consumers, right right. What was preventing them from buying my cheap materials?

>expanding our ability to draw in resources from outside of the Earth to sustain an ever increasing quality of life in spite of population growth.
Your only valid point.
Better solution is to control population growth and develop better technology. No need to rush to space.

>>3261578
Venus is roughly the same size as earth but beyond that, there's nothing in common. It's completely inhabitable. Mars is a better prospect

>>3261574
>What i'm against is that we do it so that couple of dudes are happy and the rest of the world starves.
You're new here. I'm not going to ask if you are, you're obviously new here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bIQLiKi3g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bIQLiKi3g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bIQLiKi3g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bIQLiKi3g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bIQLiKi3g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bIQLiKi3g

>You don't seem to realize that with the money you are planning to dump on now worthless gold we could use it to do actual science that helps us.

...And you're definitely ignorant.

http://www.gold.org/technology/uses/

>>3261564

Lets not be unrealistic here, asteroid mining won't solve any problems in and of itself. But if we do pay attention to human history we'll notice that scarcity is responsible for a lot of human suffering, saying we need to delay space flight because we have problems on Earth is a really narrow minded statement. We will die on this planet if we don't start accessing resources outside of Earth. Successfully mastering our Solar System will drastically alleviate problems we face today, but it won't solve them

>>3261574
>>He thinks the problem is that we don't have enough paper notes with numbers on them, not that we are using an archaic system that only serves to hold progress back.
>>Laughingvirgins.bmp

>>3261243

You are actually wrong, life on Venus would be unconventional, but it would be much more sustainable than it is on Mars why don't you check into it. The fixation on Mars has more to do with its marketability than it actually being of significant Value over other possible prospects.

>>3261603
If you don't bring in some actual numbers where the money to go to space comes from i don't see any point discussing your fantasy.

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bIQLiKi3g
I don't see any point in this.
No numbers, more dreams

>http://www.gold.org/technology/uses/
Gold is usefull, but we have it right here on earth.
Your solution is to use tax money to get gold from space, sell it with loss to companies and then trust the good will of those same corporations to lower their consumer prices.

I don't see that happening.

We have mined 165,000t of gold in the history of humanity. Only 10% of our current production is going to industry.
We have gold reserves of 30,000 juts sitting in the treasuries of the nations and loads more in peoples homes. Not to meantion the fact that gold can be recycled.

There is no shortage of gold.

Money is the representation of the two basic components: Resources and work.
Everything cost money and time.
You can't "print" more money. You can only increase the efficiency of the base resources or redistribute existing money.

Now we need money to get the resources and to pay for the work. Money isn't a issue if you just find enough people that are willing to work for free and can bring their own materials.

I need to eat and feed my family so you can count me out from that charity work.

Please if you have these resources of free labour and resources tell me.

>>3261634
Gee, I really wonder where that money might be able to come from.

>>3261633

>>You are actually wrong, life on Venus would be unconventional, but it would be much more sustainable than it is on Mars why don't you check into it.

I just checked into it, I was right, Venus is much too hot.

>>3261634

Gold is a horrible example to use, its really is a shitty metal and has very little industrial use, its value comes primarily from its use as jewelry and its relative scarcity in comparison to other metals. You know 70% of the US treasury is still in Gold, and the honest to God truth is we should liquidate it and do something useful with the money. The thing is, there are other metals in asteroids stuff besides metals. If you really don't think that space exploration can't pay for itself you're talking out of your ass. Being able to establish artificial colonies fully stocked with resources from Earth would be a profitable venture. I you neglect that a lot of the money put into "space exploration" is going towards drastically reducing the cost of it in the first place. Contrary to popular belief Nasa has done little in terms of innovation over the past few decades, its not what they spent their money on. If private companies were given the funding Nasa was given over the last 2 decades we would probably have cost efficient space travel already. As things stand, like much of American government institutions, its tantamount to welfare program.

>>3261599

>>No it's not

Yes it is.

>Go on.. Are you planning to buy these mining companies and force them to do things on a loss?

Straw man.

>Ahh.. So the companies just roll the cost to consumers, right right. What was preventing them from buying my cheap materials?

Nothing, but now supplies have increased.

>Your only valid point.

...That you are willing to acknowledge.

>>Better solution is to control population growth and develop better technology. No need to rush to space.

The opinions of a pro-extinction antihuman are as empty of meaning as his worldview is of value.

You know what /sci/? I'm done. I'm done with every and any single thread about any kind of space colonization turning into a shitflinging about WE HAVE NO PAPER WITH THIS MANY ZEROES ON IT.

Don't expect me to post again. I may lurk, but fuck it. 90% of the interesting and optimistic people seem to have deserted this place long ago.

Now I'm going to use the void of free time that I will receive to study as many branches of science and economics I possibly can so I can start an aerospace company that will use a laser array powered by space-based solar to burn a huge trollface visible by the naked eye on the face of the moon with 'Problem, Luddites?' under it.

>>3261671

You're still wrong

>>3261668
Yes, what you will cut?
How much?
Whos job will you take away?
How would you take away the power from those who are currently deciding the fate of that money?

>>3261688

Hey dude. Do you have a youtubeaccount? 'Cause I think I added you, but you didn't accept. At least if you stop trippin' you could accept the friend inv?

>>3261703
http://www.youtube.com/user/Inurdaes
I will add you now, but I don't often check my Youtube messages.

>>3261688
No Inurdaes! Keep hope, friend. I've been on /sci/ since day one and have greatly enjoyed your posting.

>>3261709

Apparently we are already friends, lol.

>>3261693

Venuses upper atmosphere is more Earth like than mars, yes the surface is out of the question but floating cities and aerostat habitats on Venus make more sense right now than anything we could do on Mars.

/sci/mon! Your drill is the drill that will pierce the heavens! Don't believe we can make it to another planet, believe in the me that believes in you believing we can, and we will go straight up there and make Mars our bitch!

>>3261688
I'm afraid we cannot let you go, for now at least. Since the chans became very mainstream there have been an awful increase in retards/trolls/pseudoscience. Bear with it for a while.

Government projects require public approval for funding. And the general public is interested in football and dancing with the stars, not science. The media will be all "oh noes too much monies in spaaace" because they can sell a story doing that, and the ignorant peasants will agree. And then the politicians who allowed all that space funding wouldn't get votes and that's all they care about.

So basically the general public is the biggest obstacle here. Which is why China is going to take Mars because they can do whatever the fuck they want without having to cater to their peasant masses.

The only hope America has of getting their asses to mars and keeping their asses there is private corporations, and then only if there's profit to be made. I quite like SpaceEx though they seem pretty solid, falcon 9 can simply into space, and they seem to have the drive and vision to be true space pioneers who care about more then profit.

1) private corporation mines asteroids for fuckton of money using robotic probes with vasimr engines.
2) said private corp becomes rich as fuck
3) other corporations say "holy shit, this proves there is money in this" and they do it to.
4) earth population is well over 10 billion and the potent combination of population pressure, asteroid wealth, and corporations wanting freedom from government control and taxes combined with a pinch of good old fashioned "give a fuck" will finally drive us to take the first steps towards colonizing mars.

>>3261479
>global warming

>>3261978
Oh boy, we have a true American Patriot fighting against the liberal intellectual intelligentsia and their fancy conspiracy!

>>3261574
>We should do everything and put the cost on my magic account, it has limitless credit.

The western world is in the problem it is now because of exactly this.
Now imagine if we'd spent all those countless billions on furthering ourselves by researching space exploration and not on buying bankers new jets while the rest of us rot.

>MARS COLONIZATION
>SPACE MARINES
>REPTILIANS
>If you know who this is, I applaud you.

>>3261994
Uh, no, British. And if you think you can some how stop the sun effecting how the solar system is heated then carry on, just stop spending all our money trying. I'm looking forward to my Mediterranean climate.