/sci/ - Science & Math

>you will never eat pie with carl sagan on a spaceship to mars and discuss speculative extra-terrestrial biology and lament that there was no life on mars and be all "you will never converse with an alien life form".

>>3254737

I an accomplish anything I want in my fully-armed spaceship of the imagination

>>3254737
Future Inurdaes has just sent me a text declaring that you are incorrect and he is conversing with Mr. Sagan about the inconsistencies of racism in the terms of Gaussian distribution curves while stoned.

Apparently time travel will exist.

>>3254749
>>3254727
YES!

>>3254762
jimmy status: Rustled.

>>3254812

>>3254817
>>3254812

This...is the very best thing.

>>3254817
>>3254812

source: http://ninjerktsu.blogspot.com/2011/01/carl-sagan-and-his-fully-armed.html

>>3254812
>>3254817

>>3254778
It's too bad Carl Sagan couldn't apply rational and skeptical thought to his own work.

I feel like an idiot because when i was around 13 or so i said that i found astrology fascinating... I meant to say astronomy...
That is one of the worst things i have ever said... ever...

>>3254910

>not sure if trolling or just stupid . jay peg

examples?

>>3254912
Yeah, I go to a tech school and took AY1 this quarter. Guess what I kept calling it.

>>3254916

SETI was highly illogical. It's one thing to test the theoretical probability of ET life in the universe. But the chances of detecting alien transmissons, or of them detecting our transmissions is near zero. The whole thing was lark, an unecessary luxury, a waste that could have been prevented by applying simple logic.

And check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contents_of_the_Voyager_Golden_Record

The Voyager contains a 1 hour recording of Ann Druyan's "brainwaves" thinking happy thoughts to imaginary aliens. Pure pseudoscience.

>>3254817
>>3254812
I literally stopped breathing while reading that.

>>3254937
U mad bro?

>>3254946
No, but it needs to be said that Carl Sagan was not a critical thinker.

>>3254937

>SETI was highly illogical.

Guess we should never go back to the Moon, or Mars either, right?

You're part of the problem.

>>3254953

>Carl Sagan was not a critical thinker.

You're just so much more holier than thou, aren't you?

You self-important little shit. Get the fuck out.

>>3254812
>>3254817
>>3254854
>>3254941
same person

>>3254966

Bravo, let me get your medal.

>>3254966
Nah

>>3254953
Cuz all those scientific papers he wrote don't exist, right? Do you even know what a PhD is? What it takes to get one?

>>3254955
Just to clarify SETI has only as a byproduct looking for extra terrestrial civilizations. The whole program generates useful information/technologies that are useful on their own even if we don't find any "aliens". So there is nothing wrong with SETI and it's definitely not a waste of money (unless somebody thinks having better telecommunication systems is a bad thing).

Usually all that "useless space exploration" acts like amongst others also as a testing field for cutting edge technologies. So we will have to build a testing facility for them in either case and it doesn't matter if it's tested in space by looking at earth reference points or into outer space - from financial point of view.

Why was Carl Sagan so poor at criticial thought? He was a showman, that was all.

Contrary to the popular belief among ordinaries, Carl Sagan was not much of a critical thinking, nay, he did not enjoy critical thouht all that much.

>>3254992

Exactly. SETI is just radio astronomy, and through that we could recieve transmissions from possible ET's.

My god some people are stupid.

>>3255014
Indeed, as an intellectual and most certainly not a typical common regular ordinary I can most rightly conclude that Carl Sagan was not all that much of a critical thinker, pip pip.

>>3255014

Troll of moron? You decide.

>>3255022
Quite.

>>3254992
>>3255017
>>3254955


>MFW they never read The Demon Haunted World.

>>3255037

Care to clarify?

>>3255024
The forum entitled "random" is more fitting for coarse ruffians such as thee. I must hold mine silk gentleman's handkerchief apon my mouth, such is your insolence, sir, now begone for I canst no longer contain my fury.

>>3254992
In the natural world, expending resources on high risk, low/no yield ventures puts a species in danger of extinction. That's why we developed brains, to make decisions that increase survival. Carl Sagan gambled and lost.

>>3255044
If I bet $1 on a coin toss in hopes of winning $1 billion, it was not a mistake even if I lost.

Don't you think there are bigger fish to fry when it comes to weeding out the things humanity has wasted money on?

>>3254937
All the crazy shit we sent out there on voyager may actually be beneficial. It's like conspicuous consumption, just by proving we are willing to invest resources on rather pointless shit like that proves that it wasn't a big deal for us, it was like one of our less important individuals whipped up voyager in their garden shed and sent it on it's way as though it was nothing.

>>3255056

>Don't you think there are bigger fish to fry when it comes to weeding out the things humanity has wasted money on?

LOL NO, SAGAN WASN'T SMART LIKE ME. NO CRITICAL THINKING ON HIS PART, DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

>>3255047
Carl Sagan wrote an entire book on critical thinking.

Also, he made a rather strong case waaaaaaay back in the 80s that expenditures on nuclear weapons, defence contracts and so on were a bigger waste of resources than SETI.

>>3255066
State a single critical thought Sagan conducted in his entire career.

>>3255076
Astrology.

>>3255068
But he admitted SETI was a waste of resources and that he should have been given the death penalty as an example to others.

>>3255076

How cool and edgy of you.

You pretentious little turd. You're right, Sagan never did anything for anybody ever. Bravo.

>>3255078
http://planetary.org/explore/topics/search_for_life/seti/sagan.html

And then turned around before his death and said let's do SETI anyways?

>>3255044
I'm not talking about Seagan. I am talking about modulation/demodulation techniques, noise resistant algorithms and the stuff you use when doing a call on your mobile phone (yes EU) or when using Wifi.
It is so it's purely commercial and generates revenue - by the way what's your opinion on spending money on advertising? It doesn't generate anything useful for mankind because it's only useful for the company that's doing it - what do you think about Arts and movies? - They are not useless, just the use might not be THAT obvious. But as a whole they increase stability (by cultural means). SETI obviously generates useful products (want to have a good cell phone signal during rain? Want to have better rural area coverage? - finance SETI - and others as well there are other organisations that are doing similar researches).

>B'awww, radio astronomy doesn't personally do anything for me, it must be bad!

More money should be going to the astrophysics department than there is. I'm sick to fucking death of everyone acting like NASA and space sciences are a waste of time.

It's the most narrow-minded thing I've ever heard. If you honestly cannot see the reasoning for Man's will to venture to the stars, then there is no reasoning with you.

Billions of dollars are wasted every day on everything from military to plastic chidrens toys, and yet space exploration and discovery are a waste of time and resources. I'm disgusted with some of you.

>>3255094

As someone who works in the telecomms industry (So consider my opinion jaded) I have to, for the sake of self honesty, say that you are using an excluded middle logical fallacy.

See Your argument is shaped much like this (Though not precisely)
SETI = Technological gains for the telecomms industry.
No SETI = No gains.

The entire architecture behind the telecomms industry for the last decade has been entirely based upon consumer demand. SETI has a VERY good place and needs to continue, I agree, but you are trying to make a suggestion that is, at its heart, frivolous.

>>3255083
You're right, he didn't, in fact all he had to do was say he smoked pot to appeal to pseudo-intellectual hipsters such as yourself and he was instantly given tons of cash to do nothing or state the obvious in his little shows. A master con artist.

>>3255110
I don't smoke pot, but I enjoy astronomy and humanism. Why is that bad?

>>3255110

Wish I could be intellectual like you, bro :(

ITT: Hipsters who think Carl Sagan didn't practice what he preached.

>MFW

>>3255144

This.

>>3255144
Practice pot smoking or critical thinking? Cuz he did both.

>>3255153
Critical thinking.
Carl Sagan was very very very into critical thinking and would oft challenge those things which we took for granted and accepted without a second thought. His work helped give notice to the skeptics society (Michael Shermer) and was a direct inspiration for not only Skeptoid but also the manga guide to skepicism.

>>3255153

Because people who smoke pot occasionally must be complete fraudulent scum, right? At least that's what mom and dad told me. Fuck Carl Sagan!

Aren't I edgy? :3

This thread is now a Carl Sagan appreciation thread.

>>3255173

All aboard for the ship of the mind!

>>3255104
Yes I agree I have expressed my thought in an overly simplified way. I bet there will be some contribution in particle physics and in other areas as well.

As to telecom well it is driven by commercial needs full agreement on that. But commercially there is no need to look into far future only to short term profit - as it empirically turns out to be (don't ask me why it is so - it just is that way). That's why today's telecoms have such a low energy efficiency but relatively high speed. - the commercial influence is almost never good for quality.

Also telecoms are paying organisations like SETI (there are other that have similar role so if SETI is to be cancelled by some prick-ish government it is likely most of the rest of the organizations will be cancelled as well). - just a guess I actually don't know how big SETI is today so it might be slowly fading away - not sure though.

So yes SETI on it's own is not the only pylon supporting signal related advancement but is definitely not negligible. - depending how big SETI is today therefore I might be wrong.

>>3255160
Did you link to the wrong post dude?

>>3255188

Now that you mention it yes I did, was meant for >>3255110

>>3255119
>>3255140
>>3255173
>>3255182
Try thinking more.

>>3254953
>>3255076
>>3255110


Carl Sagan predicted the surface conditions of Venus while everyone else thought it would be a "balmy paradise".

Tell me, what's it like to accuse others of noncritical thinking and then not research any of the presumptuous shit that's running along your keyboard?

>>3255198
To be perfectly fair, he did follow the Balmy paradise thinking for a while. However, when Data began to emerge, he then began to hypothesize that it was as it is. This is actually a good example of letting go of deeply cherished beliefs.

>>3255212

>This is actually a good example of letting go of deeply cherished beliefs.

Exactly. Call Sagan what you will, but REALLY /sci/? Not thinking he was even a critical thinker?

That's just wrong.

>>3255197

People like you are why we can't have nice things.

>>3255198
>>3255212
>deeply cherished beliefs
Among scifi fans, but not actual scientists.

>>3255197
Y u mad tho?

Sagan was one of the greatest teachers ever, inspiring millions to think more of our universe than the daily lives of most people permit.

>>3255221
Sagan's contributions were central to the discovery of the high surface temperatures of the planet Venus. In the early 1960s no one knew for certain the basic conditions of that planet's surface, and Sagan listed the possibilities in a report later depicted for popularization in a Time-Life book, Planets. His own view was that Venus was dry and very hot as opposed to the balmy paradise others had imagined. He had investigated radio emissions from Venus and concluded that there was a surface temperature of 500 °C (900 °F). As a visiting scientist to NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, he contributed to the first Mariner missions to Venus, working on the design and management of the project. Mariner 2 confirmed his conclusions on the surface conditions of Venus in 1962.
Sagan was among the first to hypothesize that Saturn's moon Titan might possess oceans of liquid compounds on its surface and that Jupiter's moon Europa might possess subsurface oceans of water. This would make Europa potentially habitable for life. Europa's subsurface ocean of water was later indirectly confirmed by the spacecraft Galileo. Sagan also helped solve the mystery of the reddish haze seen on Titan, revealing that it is composed of complex organic molecules constantly raining down onto the moon's surface

>>3255218
>>3255219
Since R&D spending is so low wouldn't it make more sense to spend it on something which will yield higher returns? American's glorious and superior capitalist economic system accomplishes this, corporations invest in R&D then pour the profits from the research straight back into R&D.

>>3255227
Name one scientist who directly stated "venus is a balmy paradise" in those exact terms.

>>3255226

This. Since watching Sagan as a kid, it led me to the path of becoming an astronomer.

The study is hard, but worth it. I hated math with a passion, yet Sagan inspired me to think different.

He was a brilliant mind, and a kind human being.. The world could learn a lot from a man like him.

>>3255233

Just leave. Why keep needlessly hating on a dead man.

>>3255235
ok

>>3255234
*Brofist*

>>3255229
Consider the following:
High investment in profitable technologies- Short term yields and satisfied consumer demands.
Long term moderate expenditures on unproven technologies for future advancements in incremental stages - Lower yield, greater advancement.

It would be better over a long term to invest responsibly in a goal not for monetary gain, but for total intellectual gain.

The business model you describe has been a keystone in American economical thinking for a while.

I don't know if you noticed this, but that model was unstable and unsuited for the long term. Which is partially why we are in the mess we are in here in the states (And why I have been working abroad since 09).

I hate to imply a slippery slope fallacy, but that same line of logic was used in the medical insurance industry and look at the mess they are in, as well as the slapdash bill put together to try and fix that.

>>3255233
Frank E Ross.

>>3255233
Also, pick up a book: Dick, Steven (2001). Life on Other Worlds: The 20th-Century Extraterrestrial Life Debate. Cambridge University Press.

>>3255243

Well said good sir.

For anybody who doesn't already know, seriously check this out.

http://milkywaymusings.com/

>>3254762
You're going to marry him in the past?

Tell him he's awesome for me, and that Bill nye can suck a tanker full of lubricated dicks.

>>3255279
Very nice. Thanks for sharing that (Beenw ithout net, forgot about the site)

>>3255243
And what yield was produced from SETI and Voyager? We proved to ourself that we could do something, however futile, and that made us feel good about ourself. And we developed some technology which may have duel or secondary usage. Which seems to be NASA's raison d'etre. Make stuff for space that you can use at home. How about making stuff for home that you can use for space? Since most of us live on Earth, it makes sense to make stuff for earth use.

>>3255314
>I cannot put sufficient thought into my comments before posting them.

I could list all the scientific payloads... but I won't

So I will just post an informational site about Voyager and YOU tell me what we've gained.

http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/

(Image as nonsensical as >>3255314's post)

>>3255314

Your reasoning is bad and you should feel bad.

NASA = Church of Space

Carl Sagan = High Priest of Space

Admirrers and Supporters = the Faithful

Communicating with ETs = Praying to God

Sending stuff into space with little or no return = Sacrifice to God

Videos of Carl Sagan = indoctrination and comfort

Pictures of Space = tacky fetish items like desktop shrine decorations.

>>3255361

Cry more, tool.

>>3255361
>Watch me as I use my non-sequitors!