/sci/ - Science & Math

good

Good man. They were talking about this shit back in the 60s. It's about time.

I piss in the sea

feelsmediocreman.jpg

I hope there are special creatures which excite me

Yeah, because we've done such a great job with the landmasses, amirite??
The only way I see this being beneficial in the long term is if we set up serious efforts for sustainability. We really can't risk destabilizing ocean ecosystems to the degree that we have on land.

That being said, I enjoy your posts a lot, Mad Scientist.

A lot more important than space exploration, if we don't understand our planet how are we going to understand any others?
Developing means to create vehicles capable of surviving such pressures will have knock on effects for the rest of humanity. Plus we can finally kill cthulu

It's good enough.

>>3214949
As an avid SCUBA diver, I'm pretty good with this.

Also, to Mad scientist, would you and your ocean habitat pals perhaps be available in a decade or so to consult on the construction of a supervillain- type lair?

guys lets build a colony inside the ocean
or lets create a company specialized in underwater buildings, we could become rich

>>3214967
>kill
>cthulu

>>3214949
>autodesk
Wut? The company that makes CAD and Revit also makes submarines?

We live in an era when two private companies (Virgin Oceanic and Triton Submersibles) are locked in a deep sea equivalent of the space race, each claiming they will be the first to send a cutting edge submersible to the deepest trench on Earth.

Triton hopes to sell such capable submersibles to oceanographic research institutes and wealthy enthusiasts.

Richard Branson has declared his intention to turn Virgin Oceanic into a deep sea tourism company, with a redesigned sub housing multiple passengers and making routine 10 mile cruises along the bottom of the Challenger Deep, walls and seabed illuminated by floodlights, the sub doing acrobatic maneuvers along the winding canyon star wars style.

It is expected to be drastically more affordable than a Virgin Galactic ticket, for obvious reasons. It is a truly great time to be alive.

www.virginoceanic.com
www.race2innerspace.com

MFW!

>>3214979
Fucking Branson is beating us all to the good ideas!

>>3214979
If your undersea colony people need a lawyer and at any point wish to become a sovereign nation... I can help.

You don't really need to produce anything to make money as an independent country, you could do a ton of shady banking and internet hosting.

>>3214965

>>We really can't risk destabilizing ocean ecosystems to the degree that we have on land.

Not a prob. All vehicles are electric by necessity, all power is produced by turbines and hydrothermal by necessity, and buildings are fabricated on land and then sunk into place, causing far less disturbance of the natural environment than construction of a building on land. It's a uniquely clean way to live.

>>That being said, I enjoy your posts a lot, Mad Scientist.

Aw. :3c

>>3214969

>>Also, to Mad scientist, would you and your ocean habitat pals perhaps be available in a decade or so to consult on the construction of a supervillain- type lair?

Following the 2012 demonstration, provided we can find a manufacturer you'll be able to buy a small 2 man habitat for around $35,000, or $50,000 fully optioned.

>>3214978

>>Wut? The company that makes CAD and Revit also makes submarines?

Naw, they're a sponsor. Graham Hawkes designed that sub, as well as Bransons' deep flight super falcon.

>>3214972

I'm afraid someone's beaten you to it. www.underseacolony.com

Ambivalent. The technology is cool, but the ocean terrifies me. The deeper you go the more horrifying the animals become.

>>3214995
What of waste? Not so much human waste, as ecosystems can easily use the extra nitrates, but trash in general? Our land disposal of trash is already destroying ocean ecosystems. On the flip side however, maybe having a bunch of people living out there will bring the full issue of our pollution to public light.

I don't see actual need to live in water. Maybe tourism on holiday business but not much else. We have plenty of good space to do things in land.

>>3215011
Don't be ridicul-OHGOD!

>forget space
>mfw I'm an astrophysicist

Okay. So, how long until we get 300m submarines that travel 160 knots and underwater colonies?

>>3214995
Thats what they told the sea cows.

>>3215029

>>I don't see actual need to live in water

Nobody needs to live in Hawaii either. The idea is that people will *want* to. It's pretty. (Pic related)

And once people with money live there, soon enough an economy grows around them as people find ways to get them to spend that money, and businesses that don't justify the expense of an undersea colony by themselves but which can benefit from one already existing for other reasons.

>>3214968

>>It's good enough.

Right. Because how can the sea ever hope to complete with a barren, frigid, radiation blasted desert.

>>3215038
>pretending oceanic safari's are not his intention

I can see a future with floating cities. But underwater colonies? That's just as big a scifi delusion as space colonization.

Sorry bro but ever since that one deep sea thread where I saw the picture of the eel with a human face I've pretty much sworn off any possibility of ever going back into the water for any reason.

>>3215029
We might find it to be much more beneficial than first anticipated, only one way to find out I guess.

I mean why not?

>>3215057

How so? Building the structures themselves is easily within our grasp. We've had the materials and technology for many decades. And we don't need to blast them into orbit, just tow them out to the colony site via barge and then sink them.

It's a lot more doable than it might seem when you first consider it. And in fact, a civilian colony is planned for 2015, with additional vacancies in 2020 (the initial 2 residences are spoken for.) Pic related, it's the colony hub.

>>3215076
Link to where you found that info?

Loving the shit out of this thread, btw.

>>3215038
Economies don't grow around couple people.
Sure, there is a demand for these as a novelty and probably holiday and tourism purposes.

But there is only really small number of people who would actually want to live in the ocean.
Everything is more expencive and then there are the problems with transportation and other such things.

Underwater colonies are only good when they are an extencion of existing major city, as in New York or Tokyo continuing to build in the waters that surround them. Even then it would be continuous buildings, as in modified skysrapers build into the sea floor raising above the surface.

As this anon
>>3215057
pointed out, floating cities are much more realistic, as they lack allmost all major drawbacks of underwater while maintaining allmost all advantages.

>>3215086

He works for them.

>>3215057
>giant vertical tower in the ocean
>implying there is not literally thousands of miles of available horizontal space
>you'r pic is dumm

>>3215086

www.underseacolony.com

There's a couple of articles about them on various sites, this one has the nice inforgraphic, sorry it's lolfox.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/offbeat/011711-brevard-couple-envisions-undersea-colony-by-2015

>>Loving the shit out of this thread, btw.

:3

>implying that there's anything interesting below a few dozen metres
>implying that ugly useless fish and geothermal vents are as interesting as neutron stars, magnetars, nebulae, hypernovae, exoplanets, and possible intelligences

>>3215101
Novelty and dick waving go a long way...
The size of that thing is probably too big but you get the point.

>>3215105
having fun living on a frozen exoplanet or next to a hypernovae bro.

unless you just like to look at them. which you could easily do on earth or even from a floating city due to the reduced light pollution.

>>3215095

>>pointed out, floating cities are much more realistic, as they lack allmost all major drawbacks of underwater while maintaining allmost all advantages.

Perhaps you missed the tsunami that devastated Japan recently. Hurricanes are no small threat either, either would destroy a floating city, and the frequency of both will only increase.

200 feet below the sea, you're completely insulated from surface storm action. And provided the weighted base of the colony is connected to it via shock absorbing supports, it's insulated from undersea quakes as well.

Pic: Undersea habitat built by one ordinary guy, paid for out of pocket, made from a cargo container. It's not cutting edge tech, anyone determined to do so can build one. It's no longer a future possibility, but rather a present inevitability. Whether for science, luxury (like the poseidon undersea hotel) or permanent living, man will return to the sea.

i always wondered why we havent explored our oceans yet. People always say the next frontier is space. I disagree, the next frontier is the deep sea.

>>3215105

>nothing interesting below a few meters

nigger, that's where everything interesting is.

read a fucking book or something.

>>3215103

Thank ya.

>>3215105

>>>implying that there's anything interesting below a few dozen metres

We'll be 250 feet deep. That's well within the photic zone, but below the reach of storms.

>implying that ugly useless fish and geothermal vents are as interesting as neutron stars, magnetars, nebulae, hypernovae, exoplanets, and possible intelligences

We can see all of that from the Earth, and from orbital telescopes. The view doesn't differ much from the moon or Mars. As for nonhuman intelligence, we've already found it in the sea. Pic related.

Last I checked, you haven't found even a single microbe.

>>3215059

>>ever since that one deep sea thread where I saw the picture of the eel with a human face I've pretty much sworn off any possibility of ever going back into the water for any reason.

He waits for you.

>>3215101
building vertical is always a more efficient way to use available area

A city like Rapture would be the place of dreams.
It would be just beautiful.

>>3215126
You apparently don't know how either tsunamis or hurricanes work. Let me educate you:

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsunami

>Tsunamis have a small amplitude (wave height) offshore, and a very long wavelength (often hundreds of kilometers long, whereas normal ocean waves have a wavelength of only 30 or 40 metres),[21] which is why they generally pass unnoticed at sea, forming only a slight swell usually about 300 millimetres (12 in) above the normal sea surface. They grow in height when they reach shallower water, in a wave shoaling process described below. A tsunami can occur in any tidal state and even at low tide can still inundate coastal areas.
>30cm

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_cyclone#Locations

Also note the 'almost' in there.
Granted, storms are one of the few drawbacks that floating cities have.

>>3215157

I agree. But you're building in the wrong direction.

and once we rape the sea of it's resources, then what?

because, I mean, now, that's the only fucking reason we'd ever colonize it. Don't forget, the only reason we even gave a fuck about going to the moon was to beat the Russians at their invisible little game.

>>3215165

>>Granted, storms are one of the few drawbacks that floating cities have.

Ah, lots of huffing and puffing and then an eventual concession. I'm aware of how tsunamis work. I was not implying it would impart kinectic force or sweep over the floating city, but rather capsize it. You have a very tall tower poking out from the base of a flat platform. It would not fare well in violent waves, keeping in mind how tall said waves get many miles out to sea.

>Living in tin can in the dark
>dependent on 100% structural integrity, air supply
>any tech failure will kill you
>can't escape to surface quickly because of pressure
>sure is a great idea

>>3215165
>tropical cyclones rarely form or move within about 5 degrees of the equator, where the Coriolis effect is weakest.

Position the floating city there.

>>3215193

>>and once we rape the sea of it's resources, then what?

The sea floor is larger in size than all of the continents put together, and it offers preindustrial resource densities as we've been unable to industrialize the seafloor until now. Six nations total have begun seafloor mining operations. Although precious metals like gold, silver and platinum can be found in large, pure deposits around hydrothermal vents, they also contain rare earth minerals which exist in smaller, more spread out pockets on land making them less economical to mine there.

Those happen to be the precise metals we need to build things like wind turbines, solar panels and electric car motors and batteries. Conquering this last terrestrial frontier will solve our immediate ecological problems (at the expense of the natural habitat deep sea vents provide) by making the technologies we need to live in a post-oil world affordable and plentiful.

And living in the sea will promote advances in everything from modular 1atm habitat design to advanced life support systems, technologies that will directly benefit efforts to colonize other planets. Not to mention that with access to those precious metal deposits, we'll be in the kind of economic shape necessary to resume meaningful expansion to the moon and mars.

>>3215195
Did you look at my sources?
There has been no tropical cyclones in the tropic in the last 60 years. See the wiki page. Some normal stroms should occur but that is nothing out of the ordinary.

Also
1) I didn't imply huge towers, 1km is ridiculous. Sure some form of building will rise but nothing in the line of 1km. There is huge area to use so there is no burning need to build extremely tall.
I would say that a "building"/city that is +1km in diameter and maybe max hight of 100m is extremely stable.
2)
>It would not fare well in violent waves, keeping in mind how tall said waves get many miles out to sea.
>violent waves
>30cm
Wtf? If the wawe is 30 high i wouldn't say it's "violent" or "tall"

That said floating cities are still many times more efficient than sunken ones.

>>3215201

>Living in tin can in the dark

What, now LED lights don't exist? Why would it be dark?

>dependent on 100% structural integrity, air supply

Right, just like on the moon or mars. The way we need to learn how to live.

>any tech failure will kill you

See above.

>can't escape to surface quickly because of pressure

Actually in a 1atm colony you can escape directly to the surface without decompressing because you were never exposed to ambient pressure and thus your tissues never saturated with nitrogen. It's why rigid 1atm diving suits are increasingly used, they maintain 1atm inside at all times and thus allow you to come straight up without decompression stops. Pic related.

>sure is a great idea

Moreso than it appears at first glance.

>>3215201

Same as space exploration only the other way around, then. I mean, the technology is essentially the same except for propulsion.

>>3215246

>>That said floating cities are still many times more efficient than sunken ones.

I don't want to live in a floating city. I want to live in an undersea city. Many more feel the way I do, and are working to make it happen. You can work towards the realization of floating cities as well. The two are not mutually exclusive.

somewhat on-topic, does anybody have the news article/video of the guy who was down at a ridiculous depth and some sort of pressure valve cracked and the sudden spike in pressure inside caused his voice to suddenly become super squeaky? That was fucked up.
Personally I'd have a worse fear of living on the ocean floor versus living in space, I mean, after that incident with the malfunctioning hatch that literally shredded 2 people to unidentifiable smithereens... or the little crab pipe video... that was so brutal.

>>3215235
even thinking of not using renewable resources of energy is a fucking caveman way of thinking.
We do not need to burn shit to get energy. There is always a finite amount of shit to burn. Is this really rocket science? Why not spend money finding a cheap renewable resource?

For christ's sake, maybe you'd be a bit more practical if you were in engineering... The resources you would need to build these underwater cities (extremely strong pressure vessels, which require large amounts of high-strength metals and high manufacturing tolerances) would be utterly insane. It already costs hundreds of millions of dollars to make a pressure vessel that can only go down a few hundred meters (i.e. a modern nuclear submarine) without being crushed. What exactly are the benefits of living on the seafloor anyways? We have tons of space above the surface of the water.

Deepwater mining is totally different; you only need a fairly small amount of specialized machinery (compared with underwater cities), and you don't need to support human life kilometers or hundreds of meters below the surface.

>>3215279

>>I mean, after that incident with the malfunctioning hatch that literally shredded 2 people to unidentifiable smithereens... or the little crab pipe video... that was so brutal.

You ain't seen nothin' yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEY3fN4N3D8

>>3215298
tried. couldn't do it.

Fuck. Fuck, fuck that, fuck the ocean. FUCK THE OCEAN. I AM A HUMAN I BELONG ON LAND.

Enjoy your insane deep sea trans-humans.

>>3215317

Haha, I remember your post about ocean posthumans being crazier than space posthumans. I still remember that image.

>>3215264
Yes i know that.
The point stands, undersea housing is not for the normal people in the next couple of decades. Neither is floating housing, it will come sooner but not in the next decade.

Undersea housing is, as i stated:
>Novelty (rich people), tourism/hotels and some individuals for multitude of reasons (you).
Only people to live in the ocean permanently are people like you. there is not too many people like you.

High costs in the form of economic, social and psychologic costs will prevent this from succeeding in the big scale and as a housing.

>>3215289

>>For christ's sake, maybe you'd be a bit more practical if you were in engineering... The resources you would need to build these underwater cities (extremely strong pressure vessels, which require large amounts of high-strength metals and high manufacturing tolerances) would be utterly insane.

Depends largely on depth. Challenger Station rests in 250 feet of water, and the cost will be about 4.5 million. Much of the steel is donated too, which reduces that.

>>It already costs hundreds of millions of dollars to make a pressure vessel that can only go down a few hundred meters (i.e. a modern nuclear submarine) without being crushed.

See above. 1atm at 250 feet is not an extraordinary engineering challenge.

>>What exactly are the benefits of living on the seafloor anyways? We have tons of space above the surface of the water.

Lots of people with money want to live underwater and will part with that money in order to do so. And where they go, others will follow to establish businesses that cater to them, and so on and so forth, as it went with Hawaii's development, until there's a stable local economy.

You can't justify an undersea colony for industrial reasons, if that's what you're asking. I agree. We don't need to live there. But thinking about it in terms of 'need' is coming at it wrong. Imagine we already have one because people *wanted* it. Now that it already exists, I can think of a ton of things you can do with more effectively than without. For instance:

>>Deepwater mining is totally different; you only need a fairly small amount of specialized machinery (compared with underwater cities), and you don't need to support human life kilometers or hundreds of meters below the surface.

This is a great example. You don't need humans living underwater to do deep sea mining. But the alternative is paying for a fully crewed surface support vessel to linger overhead during the entire operation. If there's an undersea colony nearby, you can station a few workers there, paying for their room and board, and have them operate out of that instead.

It's why our government has a dedicated undersea research lab for studying reefs. Vastly cheaper over the long run than sending a crewed vessel out over and over again, and you get more bottom time than with bounce dives. Pic related.

>>3215330

>>The point stands, undersea housing is not for the normal people in the next couple of decades. Neither is floating housing, it will come sooner but not in the next decade.

I agree. It will, at first, be only for the rich.

>>Only people to live in the ocean permanently are people like you. there is not too many people like you.

I'm not wealthy. The project organizer is a buddy of mine. But once completed, it actually won't cost much more per month in rent/uilities than a decent apartment in a major city (~$1097 a month, incl. air but not incl. internet)

>>High costs in the form of economic, social and psychologic costs will prevent this from succeeding in the big scale and as a housing.

I agree, but this won't last. It's a temporary condition. Already it's much cheaper than you imagine; I posted Lloyd Godson's homemade undersea habitat earlier. He's actually made two, and is planning on a third. Pic related, Biosub II.

They just don't cost as much as you imagine, in part because all of the technology that used to make them expensive has been miniaturized and commoditized since the 1960s. Aircon, dehumidifiers, etc. can now be purchased at Costco and in a form factor small enough to fit in even a very modest habitat.

The bulk of the operational cost of running a habitat actually used to be buying gas for the generators and air pumps overhead. These days, oxygen can be separated out of sea water for about 150 watts power consumption per person: http://www.likeafish.biz/

And even with a more traditional buoy pumping air from overhead, you can use an electric pump with solar panels, and line the exterior of the habitat with air storage tanks as a buffer so the pumps need only run a few times a day to top up the supply.

Many are still stuck with the idea of undersea habitats as something insanely expensive only governments can build. In the 1960s yes, but not any more.

>>3215368
Do you have any good estimates on how much a house would cost in this type of colony.
What about the potential cutomer base, do you have any estimates of that?

>economic, social and psychologic costs
These include many more things than just the cost of buying the house.

For exampe, work (how to get there), transportation (how to get stuff ni and out, how to get people in and out), family and friends (how to keep social contacts when you life alone under the sea), fear (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEY3fN4N3D8)) etc. etc. It's not limited to the fact that this thing will basically always cost more than land housing and provide less space.

Btw i entirely forgot science and industrial use.
Scientific use is entirely possible and perhaps industrial use. Still it's usually cheaper just to use boats but there are some situations where it's usefull to have a permanent station.

Feels good man! Just finished my Honours degree in Marine Biology, starting my Ph.D. in October :)

>>3215401

>>Do you have any good estimates on how much a house would cost in this type of colony.

Between $100k and $150k for a single cylindrical residence module that comfortably houses two adults and two children. Each also has a kitchenette, and private toilet/shower compartment. It's a bit like the interior of an RV in terms of amenities and elbow room.

>>For exampe, work (how to get there), transportation (how to get stuff ni and out, how to get people in and out)

As seen in the cad renders, the intention is to purchase two tourism submersibles and convert them into a sort of elevator system. They will be equipped with docking rings so they can mate to the station, and they will be tethered to winch systems that will raise/lower them between the surface and the station. From the surface, a boat service will run every morning and evening to take you to and from work, as well as to shore for grocery shopping on weekends.

>>family and friends (how to keep social contacts when you life alone under the sea)

An internet uplink to the mainland will be maintained by microwave dish on the surface buoy.

>>3215440
As i see it there is practically no hope for this in the form of housing in the next decade. It's a niche thing.
Btw, are you actually involved in this project/who is doing this project?
I see that there is some potential but it's not in the housing. Free economics advice right here.

>>3215474

>>Btw, are you actually involved in this project/who is doing this project?

I will be one of 152 selected to spend 24 hours aboard a 4 man prototype habitat 25 feet deep in 2012 as a demonstration of the proprietary systems that will later be used aboard the permanent colony. It is hoped that this will attract additional sponsors/venture capitalists beyond the ones already funding the endeavor (mostly scuba companies unsurprisingly)

>>I see that there is some potential but it's not in the housing. Free economics advice right here.

Appreciated but not needed. It's already decided that multiple modules will be set aside as luxury hotel suites, as rented out marine biology labs and so on. Activity like this will supply the income necessary to cover operational costs without raising rent beyond what is reasonable.

o hey guys

its just me reality

>>3215498
What amount of capital is needed, do you know? How big investors they are looking for?
(Juts to clarify we are talking about these: http://underseacolony.com/core/index.php)?

>Appreciated but not needed. It's already decided that multiple modules will be set aside as luxury hotel suites

I would actually dich the whole housing thing, dich the design you currently have and redesign the whole thing around luxury hotels.
But the thing is probably not for profit so I understand this decision.

>>3215528

>>What amount of capital is needed, do you know? How big investors they are looking for?

The prototype habitat is paid for and around 50% completed (It's comprised of two identical modules docked end to end, and one module is now 85% done) We need two things:

#1. 3~ million more for the construction of Challenger Station
#2. A manufacturer interested in mass producing the simpler, cheaper ambient pressure habitats of the type we'll be using in the 2012 demonstration. We intend to sell these as luxury products for those interested in owning their own trailerable undersea habitat, deployable via ordinary boat ramps.

These will be sort of an insurance policy against the failure of the permanent colony; If we can't raise the money for that, at least getting these affordable hobby habitats into enough peoples' hands would make it possible for enthusiasts to form undersea communities in shallow coastal waters simply by stationing their habitat near enough to a bunch of friends' to swim between them.

Pic; The book you should read to find out more about the project. Book sales also go towards funding.

>>3215606
I see.

So this pick:
>>3215076
Is the next step, and the prototype is formed from roughly two of those "side rooms" without the other rooms.

Well, that will certainly push this back a little but it also gives more room to work with.

As an economist i see much possibility for profit in this. I will think about this and lets see what i can do about the 3m. Will probably follow this project untill the prototype launch is succesfull (if it is).

Such a shame that this is non profit. There are good markets sub hotels now.

>>3215679

>>Is the next step, and the prototype is formed from roughly two of those "side rooms" without the other rooms.

No that pic is the hub of the permanent civilian colony. This pic: >>3214995 is of the interior of an earlier prototype, occupied continuously for two weeks in 1998. Two habitats almost identical to this one will be docked end to end and house 4 people at a time on the 2012 expedition.

>>Such a shame that this is non profit. There are good markets sub hotels now.

Nonprofit? Since when? We definitely intend to make money off of this, both to cover operational expenses and to fabricate additional modules to expand the colony.

Rapture exist.

>>3215769
>Nonprofit? Since when?
I was mistaken, for some reason i just got that image in my head.

Well i need to go now, have other things to do today.

I will follow this and see how things turn up when the prototype is launched.
Still i find the whole thing of living under the water quite silly. Hotels are the place where the money is.

>>3215803

>>Still i find the whole thing of living under the water quite silly. Hotels are the place where the money is.

Sure, and part of it will be a hotel. But if you can bring in enough money that way to afford living down there yourself, why wouldn't you? Sure beats the suburbs.

Btw here's one of the prototype modules, with a 4 way docking connector on the rear.

Go in the water? No thank you, the fishes fuck in that stuff.