/sci/ - Science & Math

didn't you already make a thread asking this
it. gets. dispersed.

>>3212841
dispersed into what?

>>3212861
It doesnt change at all faggot.

The heat energy just gets dispersed.

>>3212873
Then what happens to it after it's dispersed?

If heat enrgy just get's dispersed wouldn't that make the world increadibly hot?

>>3212878
it also goes into space, and iff you go forward in time trillions of years, eventually everything will be the same temperature.

>>3212882

Not if QB can help it.

>>3212918
QB ?

LRN TO ENTROPY

>>3212927
I just want to know what QB is! why don I have to learn entropy? why!

>>3212924
>>3212930

QB is a character in an anime called Puella Magi Madoka Magica.
He attempts to counter entropy by using the emotions of little girls as an energy source.

>>3212837
1) Energy is only conserved in a system with homogenity of time

2) Energy can be converted to/from different forms, ie; heat, matter, mechanical, etc.

ANYTHING Else?

Where can I read more about the dispersion of heat energy?

>>3212837 heat energy

For fucks sake. Heat is not energy. Energy is the ability to perform work. Differentials in heat are energy. Saying heat is energy is as dumb as saying height is energy.

>>3213018
electrons are energy.

>>3213018
height could be said to be directly proportional to gravitational potential energy

You should as fuckin retarded as an engineer

The laws of thermodynamics (layman's edition):

1. You can't win.
2. You can't break even.
3. You can't stop playing.

>>3213018
>Energy is the ability to perform work

No. Example, mass is a form of energy.
SHUT UP YOU DUMB ENGINEER!
GET BACK TO SUCKING DICK AND LEAVE THE SCIENCE TO THE SCIENTISTS!

>>3213018
>dumb as saying height is energy

Bad example, as you can exploit height to do work in a gravitational field.

>>3213018
>engineer

>>3213018
Engineer doesn't even know what energy is. Why am I not fucking suprised!

>>3213037
Height is not energy. Matter at differentials in height is energy. A rock cannot perform work by moving from two positions of the same height.

>>3213024
Charge is not energy. Matter at differentials in charge is energy. An electron cannot perform work by moving from two positions of the same charge.

Heat is not energy. Matter at differentials in temperature is energy. An thermocouple cannot perform work between two pieces of matter at of the same temperature.


Is /sci/ full of summerfags even this late at night? Everyone should understand the differences between force, work, matter, and energy before finishing highschool.

>>3213054
>engineer

God I fucking hate engineers so much they're just so fucking STUPID

damn

>>3213054

>>3213054
Because this thread is about Krakengineer/engineers in general:
>Is /sci/ full of summerfags even this late at night?
>Engineer
>Doesn't understand timezones
>For my face refer to the other posts.

>>3213054
>keeps using the shitty concept of work to define energy

Energy is more fundamental then work dumbfuck.

LMFAO.

>>3213054
How do you type with your hands full of dicks?

>>3213075
>Picture of a physicist calling someone else retarded
You're only one rung higher on the ladder, subhuman.

>>3213054

So basically you're arguing semantics after spouting some condescending bullshit and backing yourself into a corner.

You know what was meant, and you know the language is technically acceptable but you just had to be a narcissistic cunt when you saw the opportunity.

>>3213018
>Energy is the ability to perform work.

that's so wrong I don't even know where to start.

as an example:
1) energy cant be created or destroyed
2) have system with initial energy
3) at some point the system reaches thermal and other equilibrium
4) no further work can be done in the system
5) now energy = 0
6) all energy was destroyed
7) see point 1

>>3213083
Heat is not energy. This isn't semantics any more than cucumbers are not grapes.

Do you know what the SI units for entropy is? Its Joules per Kelvin. This makes no sense to idiots who think Joules and Kelvin are both units of energy.

>>3213097
when you work in some natural units, entropy is dimensionless, you know the definition of entropy? its S = k ln(Q) with Q the number of states, ln(Q) is dimensionless and taking k as dimensionless means S is dimensionless, to explain further, T is a measure of the average kinetic energy of all the particles in the system with k relating it to the average energy, so if k is taken as dimensionless T is measured in J, so S is again, dimensionless.

>>3213097

You're still trying to dictate to people which definition of heat they're using and then presuming to argue with them based upon that assumption. That is the very essence of what it is to argue semantics.

Check out some of the ones in common use:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heat

When someone talks about using heat to do work it should not take a great feat of mental fortitude to determine their meaning.

>>3213097
>Heat is not energy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat#Definitions

>>3213114
That's statistical entropy. Thermodynamic entropy has the dimension of energy divided by temperature.

>>3213097
>>3213097
>entropy

Why the fuck are you talking about entropy now? Does your fail Know no bounds?

As a form of energy heat has the unit joule (J) in the International System of Units (SI).

>>3213117 When someone talks about using heat to do work it should not take a great feat of mental fortitude to determine their meaning.

And yet everyone posting in this thread before me was offering a shotty explanation because they were confusing the two concepts.

>>3213097
Please go fucking kill yourself. You are the reason society thinks so little of engineers.

>>3213129
are you fucking retarded? its the same fucking entropy you dumbass

>>3213139
Why should we listen to a homosexual?

>>3213139
o, and why are you talking about temperature? temp is not heat.

>>3213139

I really don't see it. Perhaps you're allowing yourself to fall victim to confirmation bias?

>>3213139

>>3213142 its the same fucking entropy you dumbass
Nope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy#Thermodynamical_and_statistical_descriptions

>>3213139
gay troll is gay

>>3213155

>>3213155
>engineer learns a very very narrow definition (approximation) of a physics concept, that only applies to one shitty field of engineering

>thinks it works for all physics

LMFAO

>>3213155
>The statistical definition was developed by Ludwig Boltzmann in the 1870s by analyzing the statistical behavior of the microscopic components of the system. Boltzmann went on to show that this definition of entropy was equivalent to the thermodynamic entropy to within a constant number which has since been known as Boltzmann's constant.

>The statistical definition... this definition of entropy was equivalent to the thermodynamic entropy to within a constant number.

nice

>>3213173
I understand statistical and thermodynamic entropy. I brought up the thermodynamic definition because it is a real stumbling block for people who get heat confused with energy.

I will never take a guy who doesn't know how to initialize for loops seriously.

>>3213177 this definition of entropy was equivalent to the thermodynamic entropy to within a constant number.

The Boltzmann constant has units bro.

>>3213181
WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT DIPSHIT. HEAT HAS UNITS OF ENERGY.

Who the fuck is even talking about entropy here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat#Notation_and_units

"heat has the unit joule (J) in the International System of Units (SI)"

The joule is a unit of energy. Heat is a type of energy...DURRRR.

Trollin? or just retarded (engineer)?

>>3213201
>>3213181
What the fuck does entropy have to do with anything?

>>3213018
Dude I'm an Engineer too

Just stop you're embarassing us.

Of course heat is fucking energy. What do you think happens when you hit a nail with a hammer.

All that Kinetic energy of the particles moving down in a straight line. When you hit the nail it looks like everything stops but all that motion is still there. The Kinetic energy is just in all directions now we call it heat.

Herp derp.

>>3213210
>>3213205
it all started with him mistaking temperature and heat and then using the defoliation of entropy to say heat is measured in K and I was showing him that even on that he was wrong.

>>3213097
>This makes no sense to idiots who think Joules and Kelvin are both units of energy.

>Implying they aren't

If they aren't both energy. Explain this. I'll use an Engineering example to get this through your thick skull

A heat engine. Q in, Q out, W out. We take heat from one source, extract usefull work and reject the rest to a low temperature TER.

Now.

Heat goes in, Work comes out, less heat is rejected than goes on.

If heat is not energy then we have just CREATED enegry out of fucking nothing and some heat has vanished somehow because if its not energy, then where is it. Its just gone.

ANswer: Energy is conserved Heat and Work are both energy and you are a fucking moron.

If they're different things explain the work and energy balance used to evaluate heat engines? According to you its like comparing apples and oranges.

>>3213097
>Heat is not energy

You are fucking stupid!

>>3212837
They become different forms of energy, or perhaps matter depending on the conversion process.

I'm having a hard time telling who says what and how wrong it is, would you mind getting tripcodes? So far only Krakengineer is identifiable.

>>3213248
>different forms of energy

No. Heat and Work are the same form of energy. They even have the same fucking fundamental units. No conversion is needed.

Things like mass and temperture represent forms of energy too, but they are DIFFERENT FORMS, as conversion is needed to express mass or temperture in Joules (or eV).

YOU SUCK ENGINEER!

>>3213264
krankengineer is a fucking moron.

\thread

>>3213264
Krakengineer's tripcode is ##daisy
Now no one is identifiable.

>>3213227 Kelvin is a unit of energy.

I can't be the only one who sees the problem with this statement.

>>3213297
Well, Kelvin *is* a unit of energy. That the Boltzmann constant has units is entirely for historical reasons. (It's also common to set the Boltzmann constant to 1 in solid state physics.)

I LOVE TO USE INDUSTRIAL STRENGTH LAB EQUIPMENT TO FUNNEL HOT TAR UP MY ASS

>>3213306
thankyou, i never learned that but it made sense to me that temperature has units energy and that k =1 can be used in some situations, now I know im not crazy. (because no one ever agrees with me)

>>3213310

>>3213350
Temperature is simply a measure of the energy of a system per degree of freedom. It's pretty natural to associate it with energy directly. Just have a look at all the thermodynamical formulas, most of them involve <span class="math">k_BT[/spoiler], not only k or T alone, anyway.

>mfw Kraken is actually right and the dumb part of /sci/ is just trolling

>>3213362

dimensional analysis of your expresion in SI units

<span class="math">k_B T[/spoiler]

<span class="math">\left( \frac{J}{K} \right) K [/spoiler]

Thus,

<span class="math">U = \frac{\eta}{2}N k_B T[/spoiler]

Or in other words,

Energy = Joules.

Huh?

>>3213578
I have no idea what you're trying to say.

>>3213578
Yes, energy is measured in Joules. Well done.

>>3213579
I'm trying to say this

>Well, Kelvin *is* a unit of energy.

That is a misconception, Kelvin is NOT a unit of Energy, yes, while Energy CAN be directly associated with temperature, e.g., by the internal energy (U) of a gas

<span class="math">U = \frac{\eta}{2}N k_B T[/spoiler],

KELVIN IS NOT A UNIT OF ENERGY BUT A UNIT OF TEMPERATURE.

Your argument is extremely misleading, even though both quantities (Energy and Temperature) are directly correlated, their units are not the same as shown in the dimensional analysis in my previous post.

Was that clearer?

>>3213588
>KELVIN IS NOT A UNIT OF ENERGY BUT A UNIT OF TEMPERATURE.

Next you'll be saying that MeV is not a measure of mass.

>>3213588 Was that clearer?
Yes, it's more obvious that you're wrong now. Also lol at using the ideal gas law to derive a general statement from it.

>>3213591
>Yes, it's more obvious that you're wrong now.

Loved it when you pointed out how and where.

>>3213597
>>3213597 Also lol at using the ideal gas law to derive a general statement from it.
My first advice would be studying thermodynamics before trying to discuss it. A good indicator would be being able to derive the ideal gas law from statistical physics.

>>3213605
>A good indicator would be being able to derive the ideal gas law from statistical physics

ahahaha you really think i'm gonna go into statistical mechanics here?

>>3213631
I don't think you can, no.

Josef it's not so hard to say "OK I was mistaken" you know..

>>3213634
sure you can say that, because you know my background right?

wow, this thread is still going? just let it die Josef, you (and some others (me(the guy posting (this))))know you are right.

>>3213640
The Kelvin discussion told me you don't know what temperature is, and your examples thought to be general statements using <span class="math">\frac f2Nk_BT[/spoiler] told me you haven't studied basic thermodynamics.

Anyway, here's the microcanonical partition function of the ideal gas at energy E in a volume V with N particles in 3 dimensions (with Stirling implied),
<div class="math">\Omega(E,V,N)=\frac{V^N}{(2\pi\hbar)^{3N}}\left(\frac{4\pi emE}{3N}\right)^{\frac{3N}2}</div>a) What's missing to solve Gibbs paradox
b) Derive the ideal gas law

a) is a few signs long, b) can take up to two lines if you're extremely extensive.

Have fun.

What is the symbol for heat anyway??

>>3213966
Q

But there is no function Q!

>>3213668
partially derivate --> done

>>3213979
Fuck you, without Q, Bond would be nothing.

>>3214091
oops, typo:
I ment to say Bonds, as in Chemical Bonds