/sci/ - Science & Math

....To do what? Plant a flag?

>>3187917

So that we'll have suits that can one day be used to visit the floor of Europa's global ocean. We're likely to find life with robotic probes, but what then? Naturally we'll send people, but we need the hardware to make that happen. Europa has lower gravity than Earth by far (and therefore a more gradual increase in water pressure with depth) but it's thought that the ocean could be tens of miles deep. We won't know precisely what kind of pressure exists at the bottom until we send the probe, but it would be wise to develop our deep sea capability in the meantime.

>>3187917
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

Why wake him up?

>>Will it be a flexible suit filled with incompressible liquid oxygen, like in The Abyss?

That's actual technology? I thought it was hollywood bullshit.

>>3187927

Naw, it's legit. It's hundreds of times denser than air so we have to put more effort into breathing it, but it works.

However it has all the same problems as circulating and refreshing air, and more; It takes more power to circulate the thick fluid and CO2 builds up easier unless the suit design is such that it doesn't allow fluid to linger anywhere in the helmet without eventually being purged.

The main advantage is that it's incompressible, so you could use it at very high pressures within a flexible space suit type dealie instead of a rigid atmospheric diving suit like the one in the first pic.

>>3187921
actually there are no plans to ever send people to Europa, probes can be sterilised, manned missions cannot. there are specific rules about this sort of thing (the planetary protection policy) and they clearly state you can't go to Europa if you have even a small chance of contaminating the ocean. people are not going.

>>3187933

can you link me some research or vids? seems interesting

>>3187935

There's one exception to that rule. Imagine we met intelligent life. We'd send human diplomats for first contact.

>>3187938

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_breathing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACQr0IZIb5I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF5e2raiB7c

>>3187933
Wouldn't the pressure still crush the occupant of such a suit? I mean the liquid oxygen might not be compressible but you sure are.

how much more dense is the water down there though? would it take incredible effort just to move around?

>>3187939
and risk killing both cultures, i don't think so. and if they were even remotely able to understand science we would most likely be told to stop sending probes let alone people. just because its a huge discovery doesn't change the risk, its not a movie you could destroy all life in their ocean.

>>3187941

cool, seems like dry drowning would be a big problem though, probably need some sort if inserted tube or anesthetic to keep the larynx from closing

>>3187943

The idea is that there would no longer be a pressure differential inside your body versus outside, even on the tissue level. Your lungs would be full of the fluid at ambient pressure and the other (trace) gases in your body would have been slowly brought up to pressure on the way down. You wouldn't be crushed because your body tissues and the fluid in your lungs would be at the same pressure as the outside water.

Supposedly the composition of liquid oxygenated fluorocarbons won't allow your tissues to saturate with nitrogen either, so decompression takes only a brief period (so that a sudden pressure change doesn't kill you) compared to the day or so decompression normally takes to remove the saturated nitrogen from your tissues.

>>3187947

>>its not a movie you could destroy all life in their ocean.

Unlikely, that's actually a movie trope itself. We're careful about contamination because we want to be certain any single celled organisms we find are native. Earth bacteria would almost certainly be unable to infect independently evolved Europan organisms, and if complex life already exists there, then there's no longer a point to worrying about Earth microbes getting loose.

I think it would be cool, but I don't know if the cool factor is worth the money or effort. If we can send compact, single occupant submersibles to full ocean depth already, there's little point to quibbling over whether it's a suit or not as it has all the advantages of one. Stick some manipulator arms on there and call it a day.

>>3187952
Wouldn't your body tissues still be harmed by the compression even assuming there's no pockets of gas to be collapsed?

>>3187981

Not according to what I've read on the subject. Keep in mind, there are many species which live at that depth without spontaneously imploding. Pic related.

>>3187956
we can't determine the level of risk because we don't now what kind of life it could be, but its better to be safe than sorry and COSPAR have taken that view as well.

>>3187992
>there are many species which live at that depth without spontaneously imploding

They would be adapted to such pressure so I'm not how that says anything. That said compression injuries could still occur in humans who are not adapted to such pressure.

>>3187999

>>They would be adapted to such pressure so I'm not how that says anything.

At a cellular level they're no different. The adaptations are at a larger level and all ones we can replicate in the human body. One such adaptation is the lack of gas pockets. Unlike shallower water fish, deep sea fish lack a gas sack for buoyancy. Instead most have very low density tissue so they can remain neutrally buoyant. It's firm enough at depth, but turns into this when we bring it to the surface:

It's worth trying. I don't know what the legality of it would be, but it seems worthwhile to convert a commercial diving chamber into a liquid breathing chamber and lower a volunteer a mile or two down, and then deeper if that goes well.

I'll just leave this here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byford_Dolphin#Diving_bell_accident

>>3188039

>Diver D4 was shot out through the small jammed hatch door opening, and was torn to pieces. Subsequent investigation by forensic pathologists determined D4, being exposed to the highest pressure gradient, violently exploded due to the rapid and massive expansion of internal gases. All of his thoracic and abdominal organs, and even his thoracic spine were ejected, as were all of his limbs. Simultaneously, his remains were expelled through the narrow trunk opening left by the jammed chamber door, less than 60 centimetres (24 in) in diameter. Fragments of his body were found scattered about the rig. One part was even found lying on the rig’s derrick, 10 metres (30 ft) directly above the chambers. His death was most likely instantaneous and painless.

>His death was most likely instantaneous and painless.

>>3188226
That is horrifying.

>>3187927
u r ignorant

>>3188226

Jesus fuck. I had to take a break in the middle of reading that.

>>3188226
> mfw trying to imagine what this would look, feel and sound like.

>>3188239

When the opposite occurs, it's just as grisly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEY3fN4N3D8

Old timey divers were in constant danger of this. All that had to happen was a pump failure on the surface, and they'd be buried in their helmet.

>>3188039
I don't even want to live near the seaside now.

>>3188226
>>3188287
This has legitimately disturbed me, very rarely does that happen.

>>3188291

You'd feel the pressure difference immediately, and then have only ten or so seconds before the inevitable. Imagine what would go through a diver's mind in that time.

>>3187907
man has been to the deepest depths of the ocean. there's nothing there.

>>3188296
I don't even want to imagine what the pressure itself would feel like. This is one of the most hideous things I have read, my brain did not want.

>>3188297

>>man has been to the deepest depths of the ocean. there's nothing there.

On the contrary, in their brief time on the bottom the two man crew of the Trieste saw a pale white bottom dwelling fish, bioluminescent organisms everywhere, and noted that the floor of the challenger deep was made up of some kind of soft white ooze.

The Nereus robot probe later sampled this ooze and determined it to be the calcium rich, decomposed remains of every chitinous sea creature ever to die and drift into the trench. It's unknown how deep the ooze is, or what a core sample would reveal.

Pic related, Nereus samples the ooze.

you don't explode in space, it's actually more dangerous deep underwater than it is space walking

The deep ocean is one of the few things which can genuinely scare the shit out of me.

>>3188039
>Medical investigations were carried out on the four divers’ remains. The most conspicuous finding of the autopsy was large amounts of fat in large arteries and veins and in the cardiac chambers, as well as intravascular fat in organs, especially the liver.[5] This fat was unlikely to be embolic, but must have “dropped out” of the blood in situ.[5] It is suggested the boiling of the blood denatured the lipoprotein complexes, rendering the lipids insoluble.[5]

The rigor mortis was unusually strong.[5] The hypostases (accumulations of blood in internal organs) were light red, and in two cases, there were numerous hemorrhages in the livers. All the organs showed large amounts of gas in the blood vessels, and scattered hemorrhages were found in soft tissues. One of the divers had a large sub-conjunctival bulla (a blister in the tissue of the eye).

>This fat was unlikely to be embolic, but must have “dropped out” of the blood in situ.[5] It is suggested the boiling of the blood denatured the lipoprotein complexes, rendering the lipids insoluble.

HNGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

>>3188302

Ohhh, if you're talking about the decompression chamber incident, in that case death was instantaneous. The ten second remark was about the diving helmet video. In that scenario you'd have ten to fifteen seconds before your neck (or the top of your skull) shattered as your body is forced up into the helmet.

>>3188316
I know, trying to imagine that gives me butterflies in my stomach.

>>3188307

>>you don't explode in space, it's actually more dangerous deep underwater than it is space walking

That's true, but danger is no reason to turn back. It's a bigger challenge than we've faced before, but the potential rewards are worth it.

>>3188314
> and even his thoracic spine were ejected

For some reason this is the most awful part for me.

>>3188287
I really could have done without this. I undid my collar.

>>3188226
>>3188287
I can fap to this.

Anything can be dangerous if done carelessly. The Byford Dolphin incident was an accident, and accidents happen. The technology has been refined since then, it's safer than ever. I've done it (pic related) and if anything, it was relaxing.

The dangers should be understood and overcome, not feared or used as a reason not to make the attempt. We're at our best when through clever design and careful procedure, we safely defy those dangers and explore regions normally forbidden to us.

>>3188375
But...but...I don't want to be made into salami!

>>3188379

"Men, you're lucky men. Soon you'll all be fighting for your planet. Many of you will be dying for your planet. A few of you will be forced through a fine mesh screen for your planet. They will be the luckiest of all."

>>3188386
Lol'd heartily.

>>3188386
Fine mesh screen?

Incidentally, NEEMO 15 begins soon; Nasa's training program for Astronauts aboard the Aquarius undersea research base. Here you can see one aquanaut assembling the fake asteroid that will be used to train for the upcoming asteroid mission.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_glPhLe-A54

Neemo 14 made use of a mockup lunar lander and fully functional rover as the expectation was at the time that we were still returning to the moon rather than going to an asteroid and then Mars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4Cwkeyy93w

>>3188375
Bro, I still look like this at the prospect of getting pulped:
>>3188332

There could be the potential to discover a plant which naturally grows into a vagina and I would probably be too scared to get into the fucking bath to find it after this.

>>3188386
> fine mesh screen

Noooo take it away *cries like a girl*

>>3188324

>>Risk being horribly crushed or exploded
>>Potential rewards: Sitting in plastic bubble watching fish go by

Not seein' it honestly

>>3188506
Those gotta be some damn nice fish.

>>3188523

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HzFiQFFQYw

You tell me. And that video showcases just one form of sea life.

>>3188554

Cnidarians ftw.

>>3188554
I can't tell if I find these beautiful or hideous.

>>3188554
What is that in your picture?

These sorts of animals make my skin crawl, even though they are fascinating to watch.

>>3188575

A 'sea angel'. :3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVMyg9dXkWo

Pic is unrelated, a species of nudibranch, but more proof that not everything in the ocean is an unspeakable abomination.

>>3188589
They still creep me out on some level. Would watch, but wouldn't want to get near. Instinctive reaction I suppose.

Where did you get all of your knowledge of marine biology from, seems to be a strong interest?

>>3188604

>>Where did you get all of your knowledge of marine biology from, seems to be a strong interest?

I'm not a marine biologist or anything, it's just always been one of my interests. Deep sea life has a strange sort of beauty to it. It's as alien as anything you'll find on Earth.

>>3188656
Agreed with the strange sort of beauty, the completely distinct evolutionary paths are also interesting. Another thing to read about online for me, lol.

Any touristic highlights to look out for, so to speak? :p

Someone in a thread about deepsea talked about how while pooping, little fish would come and try to eat the poop right out of their assholes.

Deepsea is fucking horrifying. Kudos to anyone brave enough to face that kind of thing. I can't even handle swimming in the ocean, sfklsjdfkj.

>>3188717

>>Any touristic highlights to look out for, so to speak? :p

Richard Branson recently launched Virgin Oceanic. With Graham Hawkes' revolutionary Deep Flight Super Falcon submersible (pictured) he will 'fly' into one of the deepest trenches on Earth, although the first trip will be made by a test pilot into the challenger deep. If all goes as planned, a larger craft will be developed to carry tourists on ten mile trips along the bottom of the trench. The walls will be illuminated with floodlights for visibility and patrons can expect a few acrobatic maneuvers, given the type of sub in question. No word on pricing yet but it's expected to be substantially cheaper than a Virgin Galactic ticket to sub orbital space.

>>3188722
>deep sea pooping
WHAT

>>3188749

>3188749
Wonder whether this Deep Flight Super Falcon really goes down to -11000m. In the Trieste the diving capsule was a thick steel ball and some incompressible hydrocarbon was used to carry it.
The Deep Flight Super Falcon just doesn't look like as it could withstand 1100 bar pressure.Its not even ball shaped.
An if it isn't round, the hydrostatic forces can crush it easily.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_hull#Pressure_hull

>>3190515

>>The Deep Flight Super Falcon just doesn't look like as it could withstand 1100 bar pressure.Its not even ball shaped.
>>An if it isn't round, the hydrostatic forces can crush it easily.

As you can see in the schematic, all deep sea submersibles are like this; Most of the sub's body isn't the pressure hull but rather housing for the battery pods, air tanks and other machinery. This portion is exposed to the outside pressure and doesn't need to be rounded, although it often is for hydrodynamics. The portion which actually contains the pilots at surface pressure is spherical, and embedded into the body of the sub such that it's not obvious from outside.

Here's a cutaway of James Cameron's commissioned sub, made by the same company. This one was done up by the graphics guy at a news site; the actual schematics aren't available. It's speculated that the passenger section is more of a cylinder with domed ends (like a pill) than a proper sphere, judging by a protuberance on the underbelly of the craft.

>>3191334

Huh, I guess that makes a bit more sense. I was kinda wondering how something that box shaped could withstand any serious water pressure.