/sci/ - Science & Math

I honestly don't know much about that field so I really can't refute any of his points, but I'm a grad student in a different research field of study altogether and it doesn't seem that bad.

My main concern I guess is that he's been kind-of jumping around a lot trying to find something where he'd fit in, and it hasn't really panned out until now. Honestly I think there's more to it than perceived bigotry. He's been actively seeking out his niche for quite some time - at first he was thinking about pre-med as his father's an oral surgeon, then he started getting into computers as that's my area of expertise, then he joined the Marines, getting through boot camp rather well until he made the dumb mistake of asking around for antidepressant medication, (a fellow recruit apparently suggested it'd be okay to do this) then he worked in Wal-Mart for a while and quickly rose through the ranks, then he left for another college with his girlfriend although that lasted for all of nine months... Although he tends to be good at whatever he's doing, he's rarely all that happy about it.

I don't want to see him stuck in a dead-end job he hates, or continuing to jump around like a desperate nomad. Maybe it's wrong for me to care so much, it's none of my business after all.

tl;dr - how to convince a friend not to throw away a huge opportunity, or should I stay out of it?

get him to become a atheist, also if he is depressed for any reason tell him to get fit its the best anti-depression. third, the goal of life is to be happy, and if he's happy being a manager, let him be

Go for a few beers with him and talk it over. If he has his degree and his qualifications, he can go work doing whatever later in life.

If, for now, he just wants a job and a steady income then let him get on with it.

Fuck, last week I had to break down my friends door and pull a H needle out of his arm for the third time in a year. Not really related, but at least your friend isn't stupid.

>>3164482

>get him to become a atheist,

...what

it's that belief in the wonder and ineffability of the world that seperates the truely great scientists from the mediocre. He shouldn't let his colleagues opinions stop him from becoming something truly great, just because he has the mental capabilities to appreciate the technical AND spiritual sides of the universe.

Q.E.D. Don't go waving your religious beliefs around like a fucktard. No one needs to know you are a christian in order to be a scientist.

Your friend is a Catholic, willing to overlook thousands of molestation cases to feel special. He doesn't know what he wants. If you want, you can tell him that god wouldn't want him to squander his talent and it's better for him to just tough it out.

>>3164498
Being a (cripplingly shy) grad student myself, I know that conversation with other researchers and personal chitchat with advisors and so on is more-or-less unavoidable. He's a lot more outgoing and cordial, he's not going to lie about it if asked.

>>3164497
Although this is along the lines of what I'd be tempted to tell him if I had the balls to intervene, I know how he'd respond: 'I don't want to do something for a living that will be guaranteed to make me miserable.'

>>3164488
>Fuck, last week I had to break down my friends door and pull a H needle out of his arm for the third time in a year.
Must be tough for both of you. My condolences.

>>3164517

You don't even have to lie about it. I never get asked "hurr durr wat ur religions" because respectful people just don't ask that. It's sounds like your friend is all "HAY GUYZ I'M CHRISTIAN!!11!" to people who just ask "how was your day today"? In summary: Don't lie, just don't wave it around.

Treat religion like your genitals:
-Don't show it off in public
-Don't shove it down your kid's throats.

OP

the people your friend hangs out with are obviously neither scientists nor very intelligent, as intelligent people don't debate over something so intimate yet unexplainable like religion.

talk him into changing the school again, as he's obviously among the wrong people. the cliché of the grumpy old prof is (or should be) long dead and a rather open-mindness is rather common. perhaps he's got to look a bit further away from the place he's living in now, this might mean you can't hang out that often anymore, on the other hand i think it's worth it.

tl;dr: make him change the school. happiness is healthier than money after all.

>>3164543

Basically this. Simply do not mention it, and do not respond to any taunts or jokes about it. It's pretty straightforward.

I have friends who are Jews and Christians, even though most of my friends are atheists who often make anti-religion jokes, and they usually laugh along.

>>3164464
>regularly deride him for his belief in God

I don't see the problem here.

Your friend literally is an adult who believes in imaginary friends and magic. I WOULD MAKE FUN OF HIM TOO! Why the fuck aren't you making fun of him?

If you were really his friend, you would help him understand how fucking stupid his beliefs are. Help him bro. Don't fuckin encourage his lunacy!

If he doesn't snap out of it he probaby should go to work at walmart or someshit, cause he wont get very far in science.

>>3164517

>> I know how he'd respond: 'I don't want to do something for a living that will be guaranteed to make me miserable.'

well then maybe you should appreciate that he knows whats best for him and not try to force him to accept a lifestyle you apparently both know he will be unhappy with.

>2011
>believes in god

>>3164543
bash.org

>>3164520

It's not that bad really, he hasn't reached the stage of begging for money yet.

Anyway, take it easy with your friend. Accountancy is a decent job if he's wanting to go that route, but it just sounds he's reached a certain stage in life where he's got too many choices and too much pressure.

I had a similar problem back when I was about 18. I read a lot of Sartre and eventually sorted it out.

>my colleagues would be making fun of me too if I told them I believe in Santa Claus

I question this because I work in a genetics field and worked, for a time, with a Christian fundamentalist. Young Earth creationist, anti-evolution, etc.

His work goes a long way to showing that "macroevolution" does indeed happen and he was the primary author of the paper recently published on it. He has his own reasons for doing this research I guess, but the science is sound so no one cares.

No one said anything to him. He is on public record stating the Earth is 6000 years old and no one called him on it. I'm at a big state university too, not a private religious school.

Basically what I'm saying is every scientist I've worked with keeps their personal life separate from their work. Do good science and no one cares what you do on the side.

Even one of the post-docs I work with who is majorly anti-religion just didn't give a shit. Sure she wasn't going to Bible study with him after the lab but she was never hostile or even slightly demeaning about it.

He either works with some major dicks, blatantly and possibly offensively paraded his religion around the lab somehow, or can't handle differing opinions.

I will admit, some geneticists can be real fucking aspies though. I almost stopped my studies in the field because of some of the anti-social bullshit bickering and foul behavior that goes on. They aren't the norm though, just the loudest.

Just tell him to stick with it. If he's still an undergrad then he's not far enough along to make any key decisions on it.

>>3164555

Plenty of people are Christian yet don't believe in the Bible.

See - most of Europe.

>>3164577
>unrelated link

wtf bro?

reported for non science bullshit

if he's such a fag that he isn't willing to take ridicule for believing in something that requires faith he deserves to an hero. if he can't provide arguments of his own against his superiors to justify his position (to himself not others) maybe he should assume a new position.

tl;dr your friend is a pussy

>>3164554
>and do not respond to any taunts or jokes about it
I'm not so sure it's on the 'durr hurr you believe in invisible sky friends and rape children lol' sort of level present in most of 4chan. He's not uptight or anything, he can take a joke. According to him his professors (the same people benefiting from his publications, grant applications, research work, etc.) are more-or-less openly telling him that he'll never make it as a 'real' scientist without first becoming an atheist.

Since we all know that Christians (and atheists, too) get off to persecution, I'm not sure to what degree I can believe any of it. I was hoping for some input from people in this field, to see whether the culture is really as bigoted and joyless as he's making it out to be. If there's any evidence to the contrary I'll be using it.

Basically the only thing I managed to get out of /adv/ was a book by a guy heavily involved with the Human Genome Project that seems like it might be a good read. Still debating whether I should buy it and send it his way as a gift, or avoid pushing the issue.
http://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&
qid=1306647373&sr=8-1

That's very depressing. I can assure you, however, that there are many stimulating academic environments without the bullshit fundamentalist atheist environment. Recommend to him that he try one of the good southern universities. I have a two Christian researcher friends at UNC Chapel Hill, and I've never heard of any problems there, and they like the university.

>>3164464
>christian

You friend is fucking stupid, and lacks any sort of critical thinking skills. He shouldn't even be considered fucking human. He is a fucking insignfigance animal, nothing more. Treat him like you would treat a retarded dog.

\thread

>>3164584

I guarantee they wouldn't do the same if he was a Muslim undergrad.

He's got three options:

1. Put up with it, finish his course and keep his professional and personal life seperate

2. Sue them for breaking the law.

3. Quit.

I think he'll go with 1.

>>3164584

Francis S. Collins

>>3164595

Breaking the law? Wut.

>>3164584
> his professors telling him that he'll never make it as a 'real' scientist without first becoming an atheist

Bullshit. While this man be true, professors don't talk about such nonsense. Why would they spend there time discussing religion?

Either you or your friend are lying.

Trollin?

>>3164575
This sort of post is what I was looking for. Thanks for sharing your experiences in the field.

Might I ask what part of the country your school is in? I suspect it's not in the Midwest.

>I guarantee they wouldn't do the same if he was a Muslim undergrad.

Yeah, cos they'd be scared he'd murder the shit out of them.

>>3164604

If they're limiting his ability to work by discrimination based on lifestyle choices then they're in the shit.

>>3164464
>Implying anyone in the real world spends there time discussing imaginary friends

>>3164604
We have this little thing called freedom of religion.

Seriously, you'd be pissed about discrimination based on whether he fucks other men, but discrimination for religious beliefs would be OK?

That's interesting. Certainly that kind of culture does exist.

However, my supervisor is a devout Christain himself and I've never seen any evidence of that getting in the way of his work. It doesn't even seem to enter his thought process.

>>3164619

What discrimination?

>>3164611
>>3164619
The professor's not doing anything specifically wrong, e.g., openly preventing him from progressing further, or giving libelous referrals, or whatnot. There aren't too many ways to get fired as a tenured professor, but open discrimination is one; if he had that much of a problem with him, he'd first just drop him from the research, citing whatever excuse happens to be the most convenient. There's nothing indicting (much less 'illegal') about telling a student that they won't make it far in life unless they abide by whatever conditions.

That's partially what leads me to think that he's exaggerating.

>>3164611
If his lifesytle choice adversely affects his performance or credibility, then they have a legitimate claim.

How can you trust the science of someone who displays a lack of logic and reason. This is the reason why most religious scientists don't speak about religion openly, it only makes them look fucking foolish, and it brings their credibility into question.

>>3164625
Ah, I misconstrued the original comments. I thought there was a case for a "hostile workplace" with active ridicule and discrimination. That shit is a legitimate lawsuit, just like it would be for sexism or homophobia.

>>3164637
>he's pulling in grant money, he's been published in a second-tier journal and pushing for Nature, he's presented his work at conferences, he's really spearheading quite a lot of this
Sounds like a real dullard to me.

>>3164637
If the science is solid, then who cares.

>>3164637
No, they don't bring it up actively because it's irrelevant.

>>3164642
Let's ignore for a second how ludicrous such lawsuits generally can be, I'm not sure his college would legally qualify as a workplace.

>>3164620
Where do you work?

>>3164464
7/10, I was thoroughly engaged till the last sentence. 3 points deducted because of apathy.

>>3164637
If he "lacks logic and reason" in the same way that Aristotle, Newton, Maxwell, Planck, etc, etc "lacked reason", I'd say he has a great advantage over his more mentally handicapped associates.

>>3164619
There is no "discrimation". To recognize someone has a mental imparity is not discimination.

If someone is retarded, they are fucking retarded, it is a "fact". It is also a "fact" that there are certain jobs "retards" cannot do.

>>3164656
No one is actually reading OP's whole post. They are stopping in the middle, and then laughing at the christian.

Thanks for the laugh OP.

If he's interested in giving it up out of prosecution for his beliefs, then I'd try and discourage him.

If he's interested in giving it up because a life of science, unlike the fanatic kiddos here on sci might suggest, is hell, then I'd say a walmart manager offers a form of freedom he'll never find in science.

The guys in science who find fame/prestige do not do so because they're smarter than the rest of the community-- they do so because they can fund their own research. The geniuses who aren't rich, even if they have the most brilliant idea in the world, are gonna' have to do 80 hours/week of postdoctoral fellowships at 30-50K/year, and hop between those every two years until a spot in the industry pops up or someone wants to back their research. (Nobody wants to back their research. Everyone who can fund research spends it funding their own. Your friend, unless rich, will be working as part of a research team under these guys, researching someone else's work.) Even if he has a great idea, it'll probably get stolen.

It's a stressful field, and the people you have to work with can make it impossible, because there's just not enough money (in research), and so much competition. Professors assisting graduate students in their dissertation, and then stealing it and claiming it as their own when it's finished is not only *not* unheard of, it's extremely common. It's legitimate to not want to work with colleagues like those. It's not so legitimate to feel that way out of their intolerance of your beliefs. They're likely to be intolerant of your whole existence, regardless of your beliefs.

>>3164669
>doesn't realize it's a troll meant to make atheists look like bitter and resented trolls

>>3164658
>strawman argument

Yeah, there are a few great religious scienists. They are the exception, not the norm. You still have no argument. In modern day being religious can only be detrimental to your carrer, it does not help in any way, shape or form.

U tollin?

why is this shit still here

useless mods

I can't say one definite reason for why, but my troll senses are tingling like hell.

>>3164680
>doesn't care

This thread was funny. It made me remember how stupid christians really are, and then we all had a good laugh about it. Seems like a winner to me! Thanks again OP!

>>3164680
It's an attempt to see whether or not the general research culture matches his rather low expectations. So far I've gotten two responses from people claiming to be in roughly the same field who have had entirely different experiences. Being that 4chan is basically trolls trolling trolls, the rest of the thread ('arguments' over legality of discrimination, laughinggirls.jpg, etc.) isn't entirely surprising.

>>3164698
>acts out OP's prophesied troll.

>>3164464
>whiny ass christian

The only groups I've ever seen such behavior in are fundie scientism undergrads (including /sci/), and the half of the grad student pop who are know-it-all arrogant bastards. I've never met a PhD who is so rude as to behave like this, regardless of their own personal beliefs.

His professor is the same as most of the fanatics here on sci who probably grew up in an extremist atheist household.

Christian scientists do tend to get a lot of flack from the scientific community, but I'd estimate 80% of the community doesn't give a fuck. It's the 20% that are aggressive and vocal about their hatred for religion, and come off as a much larger percentage. Same way about 20% of /sci/ will jump into a thread that even mentions religion and be all, "LOL RELIGION DUMB" and think they're speaking for all of /sci/. They're not.

I doubt he'd face any prosecution or discrimination in employment for his beliefs, but a lot of people will openly share how stupid they think he is for his religion.

>>3164705
>implying laughing at christians is trolling

Are you supposed to take people who believe in magic seriously? LMFAO. This thread keeps getting funnier and funnier.

BEST THREAD OF THE DAY OP!

>>3164714
>extremist atheist household

>>3164714
>LOL RELIGION DUMB and think they're speaking for all of /sci/. They're not.

Are you saying it is not dumb to believe im magic? Really? is that the fucking stance you wanna make? That magic could be real?

>>3164718
>implying beating up retards is educational

>>3164720
Like there aren't parents who shove that shit down their kids' throats. It happens just the same as the parents who shove creationism down their kids' throats.
Let the damn kids decide for themselves.

>>3164720

Like you wouldn't know...

>>3164724
Not everyone is as stupid as you.