/sci/ - Science & Math

inb4we'll have to ask the russians/americans/europeans

FUCKING YES. As many as possible. If they were capable of clothing, fire and tools, why wouldn't they be able to live in society?

christfags ruining all the fun again.

implying there is none alive today

YES PLEASE JUST IN TIME FOR EVERYONE SAW RISE OF APES SO WE ALL KNOW WHAT HAPPENS NEXT

I WANT THIS TO HAPPEN

>implying there is none alive today

lol rednecks

Is there any data on how intelligent neanderthals were? Were they just as or slightly less intelligent than homo sapiens sapiens?

I'd hit it.

>>3107425
I agree. Also, if cloning succed, It'd be a VERY interesting study to see how would they learn our all our knowledge without a religion imposed as their default culture.

ETHICS, Y U NO LET ME CLONE?

>>3107435
No, Georgians (and not the US state Georgians).

>>3107436

Believed to be less intelligent, or at least less physically fit.

It's possible they were more intelligent (they have larger brain cases, but whether that has a direct correlation to intelligence is one of the big flaming battlefields of biology) but had less powerful digestive/immunity systems, requiring a food source we did not, etc. etc.

Fun fact: neanderthals interbred with cro-magnons and made non-sterile hybrids, in fact most humans today most likely carry very tiny portions of neanderthal genes.

>>3107441

I don't want them to be lab rats. I just want them to live in society like normal human beings and see how they develope. Of course, they'd be observed by "secret service" like scientists without them knowing.

I mean just the thought of bringing a intelligent extinct species back to life is mind blowing...

>>3107418

>yes/no/maybe

I don't know. Can you repeat the question?

>>3107455

>less physical fit

Dude they are believed to be wayyy stronger than us. Their bones are supposed to be like 1.5times more dense than ours.

>>3107455
>less physically fit
Not exactly, different characteristics which left them coming up short mostly in running long distances.
>Fun fact: neanderthals interbred with cro-magnons and made non-sterile hybrids
Facts usually have supporting evidence

why bother cloning them when theres already like 6billion of them around

nah but seriously this could be kinda cool

You insensitive pricks are talking about us like we aren't even here.

Neanderthals were the real intelligent people. They just died because they couldn't walk that well.

They would probably be our new overlods and i, for one, welcome them.

http://reason.com/archives/2009/02/17/neanderthal-rights

/2009/02/17/

2009

Won't happen :(

>>3107455
So surely if neanderthals can interbreed with homo sapien that makes them the same species?

Question is whether we'd learn anything useful from it,
the cloning process is still in its infancy so I say
later

>>3107455

> Neanderthals
> Believed to be less intelligent,

bullshit.

> they have larger brain cases, but whether that has a direct correlation to intelligence is one of the big flaming battlefields of biology

It's actually well-understood that brain size and intelligence do not correlate. Most of the rather intelligent people in history (á la Einstein) had a rather small brain.

> in fact most humans today most likely carry very tiny portions of neanderthal genes

Truth. Caucasian males share up to 4% genetic material with neanderthals.

>>3107471

Physical fitness != strength.

Their achilles heel was too long which rendered their walking style inefficient, which is most probably the reason for their death.

wtf are you retards talking about? they where the stroungest, and i douth they had a weak immune system i'm sure they did'nt cook there fucking meat. damn summer fags

>>3107528

We are?
Homo genus, bro. Homo sapiens is just the only one not extinct.

>Clone Neanderthals
>Integrate them into society
>They succeed better than Sapiens
>They take over the world
>Game Over

Seriously though, I've always been fascinating with other human species. People always talk about humans being alone and seeking out in space for other intelligent beings instead of here on earth.

I wonder how well they would do in our society? What if they were more intelligent?

>>3107550
As you yourself said, that is genus. Not species.
Genuine question following:
Are all species within a genus able to interbreed to produce fertile offspring or is it just species?

We wiped them and the other inhuman hominids out for a reason.

The last thing we need is competition with another intelligent species. We have a hard enough time coexisting peacefully with groups of people we can breed with.

>>3107564

as far as we can tell, we did not wipe them out deliberately. Though it may have happened by accident.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_extinction_hypotheses

>>3107557

Circumstances vary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_%28biology%29#Interspecific_hybrids

If we can do it, using, say, the DNA of a child Neanderthal, why not?

As long as there is a family willing to raise him/her in the best environment possible, why not? If the kid turns out to be marginally intelligent, like a gorilla, they can be raised like all "special" people. If they're smarter than modern humans, so much the better. If they're average, we learned something cool.

They can't kill them once they're here so just clone a batch of them and let the chips fall where they may.

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY AND SCIENTIFIC DO IT. DO IT NAO.

>>3107597

Second this. Unfortunately, retarded christfags will stop us from experiencing this incredible event. I'm a protestant myself, but this faggotry is unbelievable.

Who else is ready for their Neanderthal servant?

>>3107630

> implying anyone gives a shit about moaning christfags

I always ignored them. No problem at all.

They did not necessarily go extinct, maybe they just combined with the Homo Sapiens sapiens by cross-breeding. So they don't have to be any "less intelligent" or in any other way "inferior" than modern humans.

>implying we don't have millions of orphans, homeless, poor, mentally and physically handicapped already.

Why the fuck would you want to clone a species of retarded super robust humans?

>>3107637

These people's votes count as much as yours. They get what they want, especially on a local scale.

>>3107630

I know that feeling, bro.

>>3107639
shut up, you cave man

>>3107644

Our point is that we should proceed with what's best for science regardless of what legislation that was written by politicians who were elected by the dregs of humanity might say.

They're stupid so they don't get a say.

>>3107658

seconded.

I never understood why non-physicists were allowed to decide for or against nuclear power, or non-scientists over the sense and non-sense of certain research projects.

There is evidence that neanderthals are capable of complex speech such as ours. They have the same copy of a gene now known to be important for speech development as we do, and they also have the same tracheal anatomy as we do, implying they were able to make the same range of sounds we do.

>>3107639
And what happens when the downtrodden are forced to share space with a retarded yet physically domineering human? Thats right, less rift raft.

Use your head. This is a brilliant plan.

>>3107661
When those things start to fund themselves then it wont be an issue.

>>3107669
Humanoid! Oops!

>>3107669

> physically domineering

So bullets don't hurt neanderthals? We're not in a society that still fights hand-to-hand.

clone a few and stick them on an uninhabited island, to watch there progress, and maybe slowly integrate newer technologies into their lives?

Everything about this is just screaming at us to do it. We should just do it and make everyone shut the fuck up and deal with it once it's done.

People fight science, progress and the future kicking and screaming at every step. They must be forced. Let's force them. :)

>>3107658
>>3107661

Because they hold the purse strings. These people are not just drones there to serve you; they have money, resources, and their own opinions. You can't do science if you starve to death, or can't get the materials to perform your experiments, or the tools, or even the material to make the tools.

If you can get the millions or even billions you need in funding to do something by other means, more power to you. However, otherwise, you're fucked and have to pander to the masses.

>>3107662
You speak using your larynx, not your trachea.

As if the planet weren't overpopulated enough you want to bring neanderthals back.

FUCK YOU.

>>3107728

> implying neanderthals are not intelligent enough to solve this problem.

Looks familiar.

>>3107418
>Yfw these cloned Neanderthals, despite all the cartoon stereotypes, would be smarter than your modern day Black African.

>Yfw you realise modern man is what it is today, simply because of interbreeding with Neanderthals, and the reason all races had/have great civilisations is because we interbred with Neanderthals all except for Black Africans who were the only race that didn't, and the only race who haven't developed a technological civilisation at one point in history or another.

Europe: Neanderthal DNA
America: Immigrants from Europe hence Neanderthal DNA
Asia (Muslim scholars, empires and emprorers, India, China, Japan): Neanderthal DNA

Black Sub Saharan Africa: No Neanderthal DNA - Mud huts.

>>3107436
According to their tools and other technology, they were like autists. Less emotions, more of logical intellect.

>>3107748

That is actually what the wiki article on scientific racism says.

>>3107734

>Implying we wouldn't just assimilate them into the genepool again (probably forming a new race in the process) become 2 species into one new species like the last time we coinhabited areas.

>>3107755

Neanderthal DNA backloop as an explanation for autism/savant syndrome?

>>3107418
No, they weren't able to live in society and they never will, the got extinct for a reason.

>>3107748
Cultures that did not have access to domesticable animals are the only cultures that did not have "technological civilizations"

You clearly know nothing of modern anthropology. Go back to int/stormfront, your psudo-science and debunked/innane/unreviewed statistics and and unfounded associations will not serve your agenda here.

>>3107735
I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO PLACE THAT FACE

op's pic did stir some puppetlust in me but I didnt recognize it.

that movie came out when I first started to get erections I totally want to bang some gelflings

>clone Neanderthals
>create great underclass of slave society
>get to have my own slave lolis to do whatever I wished

Livin the dream

>>3107777
>Neandertal rips your head off because he knows he's got rights and isn't a domesticated weakling like most of todays homo sapiens that let their rulers treat them like they're worth nothing
>fail

>>3107787
>Neanderthal rips your head off because he's a fuckload stronger than you and eats meat almost exclusively. Human meat included.
>fail
ftfy

>>3107798

lol'd, thanks.

>neanderthals have 20% more surface area on cerebral cortex
>much smarter than modern humans
>clone neanderthals
>create master race

>>3107832
>neanderthals much smarter than modern humans
>neanderthals obviously alien
>neanderthal dna in human genome
>modern humans part of alien crossbreeding experiments

>>3107770

>Implying they couldn't have domesticated a lion.

No seriously didn't they have shitloads of Ox and Bison or something in Africa? I forget what they;'re called.

>>3107875
Wildebeast? Water Buffalo? All kinds of gazelles, too. Zebra's, Mountain Goats etc. etc.

>>3107875

Water buffalo?

I really don't think that would be such a good idea. If we were to clone neanderthals, what would happen after the initial hoopla over successful hominid cloning? What kind of lives would these clones live? Would it really be fair to have them live their lives in a lab thought of as an experiment and going through mazes to get to the bananas at the end? I very much doubt that they'd ever be able to be truly free or accepted, even if they did by some miracle be allowed to attempt to integrate into modern society.
How much could we learn from cloned neanderthals if they don't have the memories or their culture or language? What would the successful cloning imply for the future? Clone slaves or clone organ doners in the distant future? Besides, we already have slight neanderthal genes. What's the point?
It seems like a very slippery slope with not enough benefit to justify the potential consequences. Just seems cruel to give something life and not allow it to live.

>>3107875
>>3107883
>>3107884
You need a social animal to properly domesticate. See: dogs. They came from wolves, which were naturally pack animals. Humans can fill in the role of pack leader that is instinctually ingrained into the wolf's mind and thereby domesticate it.

Herd animals can be controlled but not really domesticated in the same way. Apex predators generally don't get along with one another because they compete. Humans and wolves are the exception because they can integrate their social structures fairly easily and make a ridiculously effective team.

Ok, exactly how do we need to frame this to convince the religifags that it's something that needs to be done / something they might even want?

>>3107913

Unless you're trying to get a religious person to fund the project or plan on letting a potentially violent extremist into the lab, I don't see how it matters whether they cry into their porridge over it or not.

>>3107762

That's a hypothesis, but it's currently unsupported by evidence or so I've heard.

But perhaps it warrants some further research, idk. Would be neat seeing as how I'm an assburger.

if we got the DNA then let's do it

>>3107927

Policy makers will cowtow to them. They at least have to be sufficiently set at ease so as to not drive up a shit storm.

I know that feel, though. I'd separate them all from civil society if I could.

>>3107913
Wait, why is it something that needs to be done? Why do we need to make gross ethical violations for no long-term gain?

>>3107935

How is cloning an extinct species an ethical violation?

>>3107913
It's not the normal religfags who we need to convince, they may cry and rage all they want.

It's the politicians who regulate these moral/ethic laws the ones we need to convince, otherwise if /sci/-comrades succed at their experiments they might still have chance to go to jail or worse.

>>3107949
Well, let's see.
-It would be the only living member of its species.

-It would exist solely for academic reasons, having been created by emotionally detached researchers.

-It would never be able to start a family or reproduce.

-Presumably, due to the vast expense of creating it, we would not give it the choice of opting out of the research program to live a private life.

-It would unable to live a private life even if we allowed it because it's obviously a fucking neanderthal.

>>3107875
you mean like those two homosexuals in las vegas who pampered their lions and loved them and fed them well and did not try to get them to do anything particularly complicated or strenuous and one of them STILL got their shit fucked up by a lion?

Why dont you go and domesticate a lion and let us know how that goes for you.

It would be sweet to have zoos with extinct animals. They don't have have to be a Jurassic ones.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/17/scientists-trying-to-clone-resurrect-extinct-mammoth/

>>3107901
>>3107901

>How much could we learn from cloned neanderthals if they don't have the memories or their culture or language?

>Implying someone is born with language.

Herp we'd teach them english genius

>>3108021
>brb, domesticating lions
(10,000 years pass)

>>3108021
Yeah you're right bro, something like a feline predator could never in a million years be domesticated to a smaller friendly to humans animal...

Don't we have to master all the DNA methylation crap and epigenetic stuff before we can do this? Otherwise there could be developmental differences between us and neanderthals that we wouldn't know whether to chalk up to genetic differences or fuck-ups in our cloning methodology.

Otherwise, I'm all for it.

>>3108056
I think he was referring to the fact that because they don't have memories of their species' language and culture, we would learn nothing about said language and culture.

>your foster parents tell you that you're a clone of another species
>news media everywhere
>everyone wants to fuck you because fucking another species would be awesome
>keep cloning your species and selling them as fuck toys
>welcome to the human race

neanderthals are extremely close to humans taxonomically. even if we don't get their exact culture, we could observe their differences in the way they acquire culture and how it may be different from our way, giving us a better view into exactly how much our biology affects us as a species.

I don't think the neanderthals had any genes that we don't already know about, they were pretty much just humans with different specifications and if we're going to risk giving someone in the next generation dehabilitating deformities we should be doing it in the name of research instead of digging up fossils.

>>3108094

I thought the whole point of this was seeing how they develiop and if they could adapt to modern society, how smart they are etc. Not to study their culture.

Like this:

>One of Washoe's caretakers was pregnant and missed work for many weeks after she miscarried. Roger Fouts recounts the following situation:

> "People who should be there for her and aren't are often given the cold shoulder--her way of informing them that she's miffed at them. Washoe greeted Kat [the caretaker] in just this way when she finally returned to work with the chimps. Kat made her apologies to Washoe, then decided to tell her the truth, signing "MY BABY DIED". Washoe stared at her, then looked down. She finally peered into Kat's eyes again and carefully signed "CRY", touching her cheek and drawing her finger down the path a tear would make on a human. (Chimpanzees don't shed tears.) Kat later remarked that that one sign told her more about Washoe and her mental capabilities than all her longer, grammatically perfect sentences."[22]

>When Washoe was shown an image of herself in the mirror, and asked what she was seeing, she replied: "Me, Washoe."[23][24] Primate expert Jane Goodall, who has studied and lived with chimpanzees for decades, believes that this might indicate some level of self awareness.[24][25] Washoe experienced a crisis in identity when she was first introduced to other chimpanzees. She was shocked to learn that she was not human, but gradually came to accept that she was a chimpanzee, and to enjoy associating with other chimps.[26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washoe_%28chimpanzee%29

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAJAV0PJmsw

A Neanderthal raised like this (like a normal human child) would be facinating/

>>3108069
>implying housecats are the result of domesticating lions

>>3108180
no, they are domesticated from the African Wildcat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Wildcat

>>3108177

Holy shit. Manly tears shed.

bump

>>3108237

Same here bro.

Why. Why would we want that. They're less developed Subhumans. Do you want pygmies with an average iq of 54, too? Aren't niggers and aboriginals enough?

>>3109504

Since when are so many

>look at me I am a racist and that makes me a cool morbid, evil and mysterious person who trives against the stream!

on /sci/?

>>3109489

;_;

I can already see the feel-good Hollywood movies where a neanderthal overcame the odds of "being neanderthal" and achieved what "normal people" achieve

>>3109504
the entire tribe looks like they have downs.

>>3109526
You seem to be the victim of groupthink leading you to believe that everyone buys into your PC castration.

>>3108069
>>3108224

(Non-pedigree) house cats aren't domesticated in the dog, cow, or corn sense of the word. Cats first became apathetic to humans in order to hunt in and around our settlements and friendly when humans began to utilize this behavior for active destruction of pests. Cats are still more or less what they were before the dawn of civilization and can mingle much more easily with native populations of Felis catus than can, for example, a dog mingle with populations of Canis lupus.

Say what you will, I still think bringing back a species that liked to chill out by snacking on and raping our ancestors is one of those ideas which should stay in cheap horror films and bad games.

>>3111897

You seem to suffer from a lack of intellectual curiosity. Pergaps science isn't right for you.

>>3111897

Has the radical right always had a significant presence on 4chan or is this a recent thing? I don't remember it even a year ago.

>>3111914
>implying not being brainwashed into impotence has anything to do with intellectual curiosity

>>3111917
are you fucking retarded what the fuck /new/ was around a year ago

I'd like for them to clone one just to see what they would look like.

>>3111922

But the bullshit was mostly inside /new/.

>>3111918

You're the one who doesn't want to do it. How can you call anyone else impotent...

And I'm not saying I don't have a problem with the fact that sub-saharan Africans are the only race of people to have spent their entire existence in the mud hut stage but evidence suggests neanderthals are approximately equal to us in intelligence, perhaps more so. They're not going to be raised in Sierra Leone, they're going to be raised by us and free from religious indoctrination no less.

What's the point? I think it would only create a moral issue, as we already have enough problems between different groups of modern humans with few real differences, then you'd be introducing these people who are genuinely different in many respects. The first ones, no matter what you did, would end up being treated like freaks.

The whole issue can be avoided by just... not doing that. There are many other extinct species that would be more informative about natural history, many of which have better preserved DNA than the neanderthal anyway.

Can I interest you in a moa burger?

>>3111938
>free from religious indoctrination no less.

Religion isn't that big of a deal, seriously.

Meh, there ain't enough diverse Neanderthal DNA out there to make a society. The best that could happens is that we clone a few and let them interbreed with us to make some cool species.

>>3111948

Yes it is. Religion is the one thing that most retards our progress as a species. There's no debating that.

>>3111938
Oh, no, I'm all for unethical scientific experimentation like cloning neanderthals, I'm just baffled by how strongly PC eunuchs insist upon their belief that statistical differences among races don't exist despite being demonstrated by every study ever.

>>3111955
Pic related.
Ya but I think it would be awesome to clone a few. Different human species

>>3111955

>>3111967

I didn't even mention Christianity. All religions are pointless and barbaric belief systems that should be abandoned in favour of reason and logic.

And if you have to single out one religion as the most destructive the answer is glaringly obvious: Islam.

>>3111974
>belief systems that should be abandoned in favour of reason and logic

Why should I?
and
Why should I believe reason and logic?

>>3111955

No, it's a tool used by those retarding our progress. Everything bad you think religion causes would still occur in its absence.

When protestantism first spread, do you think the noblemen all suddenly converted and declared independence from the king because he was a heretic? That the fact they stood to gain freedom from his taxes and political oppression was just a coincidence? No. That's ridiculous.