/sci/ - Science & Math

> magical source of sadness

wut

anyway you've probably been confused by idiots that don't realize clinical depression is something completely different than just being really upset for some reason. The word gets used to describe both things, this is very difficult for normal people to understand.

>implying anybody believes depression is a material cause, and not just a description of someone's condition

There's no such material thing as 'pretty', OP, but we still say people are pretty. Why? It's an adjective. Just like 'depressed'. 'Depression' is merely a near constant state of being depressed.

Son, what the fuck are you talking about

Fee fi ho hum


I smell a Scientology troll.

HEY ATHEISTS, IF GOD EXISTS THAN HOW COME DEPRESSION?

JESUS CHRIST 1
ATHEISTS 0

>>3075871
> he doesn't understand depression at all
> writes a bunch of bullshit that just hilights his personal misunderstandings
> why do I even bother

>>3075868
>magical source of sadness

That's essentially what it is. There is just as much proof that depression exists as there is proof that God exists. If you believe depression exists, you are part of the religion of Psychiatry.

The word was rarely used to describe people's state of minds before the 20th century, and the closest thing to depression that existed before that was a state called "melancholie" and it was far more rare than depression is today, probably because there weren't a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals telling people "its okay to be sad" and movies making depression look romantic.

Depression is a marketed idea that the public foolishly believes. It's an excuse for someone to not have to try at anything in life and just say "Phew, its not ME CONTROLLING MY OWN BODY that is preventing me from doing things in life, its a condition called depression! I am so glad it is not my own choices/fuck-ups that have brought me to the position I am in life--oh wait."

If you believe depression exists, the you don't believe you have control over your own body.

>>3075898

>>3075882
I'm agnostic.

>>3075903
You lack thought to the extent that you had to use someone else's preconceived notion in the form of an image to reply to my post, bravo space monkey, you may be self-aware one day.

If /sci/ exists, then how come trolls?
For fucks sake: 1
Fucking assholes: 1
Fucking idiots: 1
Retards: 1
GTFO: 1
Fuck you: 1
Fall into a meatgrinder: 1
I hope your family eats your remains: 1
Then I will piss on your grave: 1
And pulverize the gravestone: 1

>>3075919
You really think I'm a troll? Open up your eyes you fucking subhuman. People feel sad, sometimes for a long time. That's it. If you honestly believe you have a condition that is causing it that others don't have, then you are like an angsty teenager who thinks he is "smarter and way out there" compared to any other human on the planet.

Depression is teenage angst, only thinking that one's sadness is "so much harsher" than the sadness anyone else experiences. Life is tough for everyone, so toughen up.

Bumping for truth, you fucking subhumans lacking self-awareness of your own life.

>>3075928
>mention troll
>start swearing
>PROFIT

>>3075928
So, unrelated to depression, how would you suggest that we study human emotions and mental states?
Schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, borderline personality disorder, post traumatic stress disorder, any number of anxiety disorders, and seasonal affective disorder all must have some cause, right? These symptoms don't just manifest from nothing. From whence do they come and how do we study them?

Clinical depression is caused by low serotonin levels in the brain, serotonin is a neural conductor and is essential for the brain to work in a neutral/happy state, If you suffer from clinical depression you can't simply "will" yourself out of it by thinking happy thoughts, you might have the best fucking day of your life any day, but you will still suffer from depression.

That's why you need to take Serotonin enhancing medication that stimulates the brains production of serotonin, it wont make you super awesome funtime happy, but it will help you on the way, treatment will usually go on for several months to years since the brain needs to be "reconfigured" to produce it on it's own

The down side

After usually 2-3 weeks of medication start or dosage increase, most people find themselves in a shorter but much more intense depression, this is caused by chemical instabilities in your brain and the serotonin being a conductor for your depression, it gets better after that though

Side effects during the 2-3 week lowpoint incude

Depression
Heightened risk of suicide
Heightened risk of aggression
heightened risk of self mutilation

and so on

>>3075952
Schizophrenia, dementia, Alzheimer's etc, are all genuine mental illnesses and can be accurately detected with MRI's and whatnot. Anything that is a "disorder" is pseudoscience and doesn't exist.

You can read the entire DSMIV diagnostic symptoms for any disorder on wikipedia. Of course there are many idiots, especially on this site, that read the symptoms and say "This is me! I have Aspergers!" And if this person went to a psychiatrist, you know what? They would be diagnosed exactly the same way.

Read the wiki link I posted about the anti-psychiatry movement. They completely shit all over the DSMIV.

>>3075928

"Anti-psychiatry" is just another anti-intellectual movement. Neurological activity is the sole agent of behavior and mood, if mood and behavior is highly irregular in a destructive manner, it should be changed. Pills are a very direct way to do this. It really is as simple as that. As an addition, most sane psychiatrists don't merely diagnose pills to those with depression, they also offer therapy.

Just like seemingly every other trait, various aspects of our neurological systems follow a bell curve individually, as would their collective effects on behavior and mood. Some people simply do not have a proper neurological paradigm to simply "man up" as a solution to their mental illness.

Please leave this fucking board.

>>3075961
Seratonin levels cannot be measured.

>man I wanna go swimming in a pool, but I'm not having fun swimming
>don't worry son, I'll put some more water in the pool for you
>why will that help?
>listen, I'm a psychiatrist. It's called the placebo effect. This is the only way you won't kill yourself. Either that, or taking control of your life and not believing some phantom called "depression" has taken hold of you and made you his bitch.

>>3075955

Similarly,

>post reaction image
>get essay
>profit

>>3075977
People used to believe that the body was divided into four humors called blood, yellow bile, black bile and phlegm. They thought all illnesses could be cured by draining these fluids to "correct the balance". I immediately think of the "chemical balances" of the brain that psychiatrists vaguely quote all the time.

Don't assume something is right just because "the community supports it". Sometimes very stupid and pointless traditions are passed on from generation to generation.

>>3075974

Please don't tell me you're implying aspergers doesn't exist, there is very very clear behavioral indicators of it, as well as psychometric data. You've obviously never spoken to someone who has a high degree of aspergers before if you take such an assertion seriously.
Is it overdiagnosed? In some studies? Yes definitely, in others I would disagree. Aspergers should only be diagnosed if the diagnosis holds relevance.

ADHD and ADD is strongly backed up with psychometric data and EEG data also, this is probably something else lingering in your mind so I thought I'd cover it.

>>3075987

>man I wanna go to sleep in a bed, but I'm not sleepy
>don't worry son, I'll give you a benzodiazepine
>why will that help?
>mfw

Also, you're a gigantic faggot that doesn't realize the pharmaceutical industry is not actually allowed to produce anything that makes you feel good.

The only thing anti-depressants do is create a floor. Sorry you're too dumb to realize this.

>>3076013
Everyone gets hyper sometimes. Everyone can't focus sometimes.

If you go to a psychiatrist and tell them you are hyper all the time, they don't do a brain scan. They give you pills.

>>3075987

yhea, sure there is no neurological difference between someone who's depressed and someone who isn't.

I do agree that people might be a bit to liberal in the use of the term. but saying that there is no such thing as "real" depression is just fucking retarded.

>>3075858
Depression exists like gravity exists, whether we know about it or not, you worthless shitfucking waste of meat.
I hope you die a slow, painful death.

BTW, what is depression, you fuckwitted pedophile?

>>3075928
I didn't even read more than half of your first line in op, and I already knew you were another anti-scientific troll.

Send me your personal info, so that if I live longer than you, I can do what I posted and do my little happy-dance afterwards.

>>3075977
Psychiatry itself is an anti-intellectual movement. We're all expected to feel just fine about the culture of banality and self-loathing we live in. When someone has a problem with that, they're told it's all in their head and made to feel like they have some weird problem.
In my opinion, anyone DOESN'T want to blow their brains out after watching an hour of reality TV needs therapy.

>>3075882
Fuckin' loled!

>>3075858

Depression exists like gravity exists, whether we know about it or not, you worthless shitfucking waste of meat.
I hope you die a slow, painful death.

BTW, what is depression, you fuckwitted pedophile?

>>3076030
>man I wanna go to sleep in a bed, but I'm not sleepy
>don't worry son, I'll give you a benzodiazepine
>why will that help?
>mfw

Of course it does, but does not disprove anything or attack my argument in any way. You just mentioned a completely different field of drugs as I was discussing the effects of serotonin-changing drugs.

Raising serotonin level is a mostly neutral effect. It's like wiping your ass with 20 sheets of paper on one a single wipe instead of 2-5, just to make sure you get all the happiness you can out of your brain...that and the placebo effect of I'M TAKING AN ANTIDEPRESSANT kicking in as you digest it.

>>3075961
Yup. The low point is where a patient is just pro-active enough but the symptoms are bad enough that he/she might do something rash.
>>3075977
Yup. It's called science.
Pregnant women are often depressed following birth at a statistically significantly higher rate than other women of their age, ethnic group, income, etc. that did not just give birth.
>Ah, they're just hormonal, they need to exercise and shit
Interesting point, let's see if their body chemistry is off... FUCK ME, it is!
Hey!
Who are you?
A pharmaceutical chemist. We just discovered that subjects' mood stabilized on this medication!
Fabulous! Let's have a clinical trial in these depressed women.... FUCK ME, IT WORKS!
>It's still some other shit in their lives
Hey! I'ts me, the chemist again. It turns out that these chemicals are selective re-uptake inhibitors for serotonin, a key neurotransmitter known to be heavily involved with pleasure/reward and punishment/pain mechanisms of the brain.
Sweet jesus, that's how it most likely works.. the explanation makes sense!
Hey guys, I'm Big Pharma and I overheard you talking about that sweet new drug, I bet we could make a lot of...ermm... save some lives with that!

Billions in sales and lots of research adequately explaining the efficacy of SSRI's later
>>3075987 decides to troll /sci/ by assuming that because antidepressants are over-prescribed, they're of no value.

>>3075928
I KNOW, now, that you're a troll.
I only read half of the first line of your op and decided that the probability of this being another anti-science troll approached unity.

GTFO troll. Not even tits can nullify this GTFO.

And I've got more GTFO if that wasn't enough.

I've got so much GTFO prepared just for you that I'm tripping balls.

I remember a troll like this a few weeks ago, using "fucking subhuman" in their arguments, and nearly the same sentence structure and vocabulary as this one.

They trolled a lot of people quite successfully, then revealed their trollish intent. I predict this will happen again.

It's not depression if I murder you and your family...

Everyone saging this thread is probably someone who thinks they have clinical depression.

I will ask one more time: PROVE THAT "CHEMICAL IMBALANCES" EXIST.

Serotonin levels do not count. See this post:

>>3075987

To explain it, the metaphor is that the swimming pool is like the serotonin levels in someone's brain, and adding more water to the pool is a metaphor for taking serotonin increasing drugs. It's just adding more water to the pool. Only a placebo effect would really make someone happy from having more serotonin.

>>3076099
He wasn't me, and he was probably a smart dude and not a troll. The fact that he uses the phrase subhuman shows alot about me and him.

Did you know that retarded people don't realize they are retarded?

>>3076133

Prove that they don't.

>>3076099
eh? you're a bit late on the game:
>>3075955

>>3076133
http://www.springerlink.com/content/632766084172731k/
http://www.europeanneuropsychopharmacology.com/article/S0924-977X(05)00213-0/abstract
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=100591

You got your troll bites but the whole endeavor has ultimately failed... and miserably. Go home and cry over your e-meter to your scientologist friends.

Would you be depressed if everyone you loved was murdered?

Of course not, you would be happy, because depression doesn't exist.

>>3076081

except taking serotonin enhancers like like sertraline you wont feel any change until a few months into treatment. how do you explain that? or the initial "lowtime" after the first 2-3 weeks? if it's just placebo, how and why the fuck does the placebo effect make you even more depressed?


If there is no such thing as clinical depression why do people suffer from the symptoms BEFORE they see someone who tells them they are depressed?

what about the physical symptoms like chronic tiredness, sleeping problems, panic anxiety attacks, as in increased heart rate and adrenaline levels, are you telling me that when you are depressed, you aren't really depressed, just controlling your body's autonomic systems like some fucking Buddhist monk?

why OP comparing this to not believing in God? Very Vague OP.

>>3076133

more like

>this pool is almost empty, i cant swim since there isn't any fucking water, just some moisture
>let me add some fucking water to the pool and see if it helps
>IT FUCKING HELPS, now i can swim since there is actual water to swim in.

>>3076148
>the phrase subhuman shows alot about me
That you're trying to make yourself sound like an intellectual and actually just manage to sound like a faggot?

That you're a pretentious prick who is maybe half as smart as he thinks he is?

That you spend time with Stormfaggots, since they are the only group of people regularly throwing that phrase around?

But in all seriousness, what it tells me is that you got 'education' at home which was at odds with what teachers at school were trying to teach you, causing you to stick to the lies your parents told you and for you to doubt anything resembling scientific thought.

Oh, here's another one of those GTFO that I got for you :3

>>3076160
Those don't prove that the subjects had a "chemical imbalance" to start with. No placebo group in any of them also.

>>3076171
That's a normal response. I'm talking about people who claim that "chemical imbalances" cause their clinical depression.

>>3076195
Behold, your God!

>>3076195

So what causes this normal response?

OP status:

[ ] Told
[ ] Not Told
[x] Fucking destroyed

>>3076195

no, the depression causes the chemical imbalance, also known as low serotonin levels

Everything your brain does is chemistry and any chemical reaction can be fucked up.

>>3076172
Taking that much serotonin for an extended period of time changes your brain chemistry so much that you feel like a "new person", which would make anyone happy. Take any drug for a month, even vitamins, and you will feel like a different person at the end of the month. I know this because I experiment quite alot with legal supplements. Piracetam is the only good one, don't use it if you want to be social. You will become a completely logical, real-life Spock

>>3076172
>what about the physical symptoms like chronic tiredness, sleeping problems, panic anxiety attacks, as in increased heart rate and adrenaline levels

Those are also symptoms that can be seen in an animal who believes he his being hunted by a prey, even if nothing is really hunting him. There is nothing to be afraid of when you are a human at the top of the food chain, stop being afraid of life.

>>3076214
Not chemical balances certainly. It's caused by an addiction to social interaction. It's the same as heroin withdrawal.

Victory bump

>>3076245

Heroin withdrawal is related to benzodizaepine withdrawal. You stated here:

>>3076081
>Of course it does

Thanks for proving yourself wrong in not one but two posts.

If you want to stare your psyche right in the face and have it explain to you exactly why you're depressed and what you need to work on, I recommend you consume 3-5 dried grams of psilocybin mushrooms in a dimly lit room.

>>3076238

>Those are also symptoms that can be seen in an animal who believes he his being hunted by a prey, even if nothing is really hunting him. There is nothing to be afraid of when you are a human at the top of the food chain, stop being afraid of life.

Thats not what i asked, i asked HOW these symptoms manifest themselves, no one who suffers an anxiety attack during depression know that they are not being hunted or whatever, it has nothing to do with being afraid of life, they can come when you are doing jack shit like reading a book or watching tv, as you know you are not being hunted or that there is no danger, since you are depressed and not on hallucinogenic drugs. but since there is no such thing as depression according to you, the reason must be that people who believe themselves to be depressed have seized control of their autonomic functions.

>But what about those people who dont know that they are depressed? as they haven't seen a doctor or anything

What causes their autonomic system to tard out for no reason then?

i got a yest infection in my gut. yeast gives off 70 diffrent toxions these toxions made there way into my blood stream and i had extream tiredness and depression. so becouse i had a yeast infection means there is a god?

>>3076294
Maybe people who receive these symptoms just need to exercise more. They live such a sheltered life that their heart rarely beats fast and their adrenaline is rarely released. The mind thinks the body is dead so it shoots out some adrenaline into the person living an incredibly dull life.

>>3076326
Herpa derpa, that is a real thing causing depression, not "chemical imbalances"

>>3076346
So toxins are real things, but not chemicals.

>>3076344

oh wow, that's the most hilarious thing I've read in fucking weeks

so whit your logic, an athletic person could never suffer any of these symptoms?


sure is fucking summer in here

>>3076366
Who knows, it hasn't been proven. I'd like to see some statistics showing the relation between depression and physical fitness.

>>3076375

neither has it been proven that the body will just randomly give you a jolt of adrenaline and increased heart rate for no fucking reason what so ever


go home kid

>>3076375
fitness play a very big role in it. if your out of shape you feel tired and feel like shit. you also probly get alot colds and other health probs to make you even more depressed.

in other words god helps those that help them self.

what people associate with the term "depression" exists and has always existed. its definitely overused as people simplify their lives sometimes with that word (just like people simplify their lives with a belief in god), but op post is all over the fucking place. pills aren't 100% effective and they are made largely with the intent to profit, but because they do make a difference in many cases they are profitable, and why time and resources are spent on the research of concepts like "depression" which is really just a term for goons like you to dance around.

not everyone is a tough guy, and not everyone is a pussy bitch all the time. there isn't a universal way to help people with their emotional problems, but it always requires more than "then do something faggot." being anti-social and counterproductive in society because you choose to believe people are not dynamic emotionally is a problem far worse than depression, so do something faggot.

>>3076390
>god

Such obvious troll.

>>3076387
But it has been proven according to >>3076238

It means you have depression!

>>3076412
dude that saying for me anyways. is the same thing as saying there is no such thing as a god.

>>3076290
Worked for me.

I cure my depression by fapping.

>>3076238
Piracetam appears to reduce levels of lipofuscin in the rat brain.[29] (Lipofuscin accumulation is a common symptom of aging and alcoholism).


Piracetam appears to be effective for improving cognition in Alzheimer's disease and senile dementia patients,[36][37][38][39][40] although these finding are still challenged.[41]

dude you just found the fountain of youth. i'm going to have to import this shit to canada.

>>3076478
Piracetam is useful as a long-term treatment for clotting, coagulation, and vasospastic disorders such as Raynaud's phenomenon[42] and deep-vein thrombosis[17][43] It is an extremely safe anti-thrombotic agent that operates through the novel mechanism of inhibiting platelet aggregation and enhancing blood-cell deformability.[17] Because traditional anti-thrombotic drugs operate through the separate mechanism of inhibiting clotting factors, co-administration of piracetam has been shown to highly complement the efficacy and safety of traditional Warfarin/Heparin anti-coagulation therapy.[44] The most effective treatment range for this use is a daily dose of 4.8 to 9.6 grams divided into three daily doses at 8 hours apart.[43] Piracetam was investigated as a complement or alternative to Warfarin as a safe and effective long-term treatment for recurring deep-vein thrombosis.[43]

damn is there any thing this drug can not cure?

>>3076195
>I'm talking about people who claim that "chemical imbalances" cause their clinical depression.

Depression doesn't exist, and if you get depressed, you're a shitfucking waste of meat.

>>3076494

islam

>>3076494
the jewish population

>>3076541
Delusional.

>>3076238
>completely logical, real-life Spock
What do you mean? Also, why wouldn't Spock socialize?

>>3076541
o i dunno like the first guy said it makes you very logical....

>>3076494
Hallucinations, like religion, or "I love you."

Depression doesn't exist, and if you get depressed, you're a shitfucking waste of meat.

>>3075858

>You don't believe in God, but you believe depression exists?

For crying out loud... Does being a dualist require you to be stupid as well? I swear I'm always impressed at the dualist's inability to understand anything outside their terms.

From a monist materialist perspective "depression", just like about everything else, is no more than a term we humans find useful to describe certain states of affairs.

Oh, and by the way, the archaic naive notion of "free will" in which you base your very objections is a self contradictory one.

>>3076588
>Does being a dualist require you to be stupid as well? I swear I'm always impressed at the dualist's inability to understand anything outside their terms.

I feel the same way about materialists.

> the archaic naive notion of "free will" in which you base your very objections is a self contradictory one.

No, it isn't. How the fuck did a dipshit like you make it to the egg first?

Compatibilism > determinism > free will > hard determinism.

Why are there so many trolls this morning? I got on just now and the front page is filled with troll posts.

1) I don't 'believe in God' ... I think that Reality emanates eternally from the Ground of Being
2) If you don't think depression is real, can I waterboard you until you feel better?