/sci/ - Science & Math

>you will never be smart enough to realize that agnosticism is not a valid third option

sadfrog.jpg

agnosticatheistvsgnostictheistetc.tiff

Go FOAD, OP.

Mega sage!

>>3074757
>you will never be smart enough to realize that agnosticism is the only valid scientific option.

>>3074747
>mfw agnostics are too dumb to realise that atheism doesn't require them to make any compromises to take into account that which we do not yet currently know

>mfw I came to terms with atheism after my catholic upbringing


You'll get there eventually, agnosticfags. Trust me.

>>3074839

You can't know if God exists.

/thread

What matters is that you're smart enough to acknowledge that others may see evidence that you cannot, and that you can only account for your own beliefs (or lack thereof)

Also, it matter that you're smart enough to not care so much about things like this

>>3074848
Exactly why I remain skeptical of people who claim to have found him.

Atheism=skepticism

>>3074757
>>3074799
>>3074818
>>3074839

>think agnosticism is a third position of belief when it's actually a complementary epistemology to either theism or atheism

>>3074848
you can't know if the giant spaghetti monster doesn't exist. but a rational person still has enough information to decide either way.

>>3074861
It's only complimentarily insofar it's it's not incompatible. It's still an unnecessary classification.

Ignostic... when you realize that people are making all sorts of assumptions about something that no one really knows anything about.

When you can give me a good definition of god, then I'll tell you whether or not I believe he/she/it exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

>>3074860
Additionally, agnosticism=irrelevant and useless clarification of unbelief that only serves to give credence to unjustified beliefs and the corrupted morality that underpins them.

>>3074882
Unnecessary but sufficient nonetheless

>>3074920

Prove that they're unjustified.

>>3074924
>sufficient
> unnecessary

Pick one. Atheism alone is a sufficiently skeptical position to take. You acknowledged this. So there's no reason for you to back and tell me further compromise is required unless you personally find it difficult to switch from your belief (understandable)

>>3074932
Unproven

>>3074920
> that only serves to give credence to unjustified beliefs and the corrupted morality that underpins them

Only provides credence insofar as the colloquial concept of agnosticism accepted and not the true definition. To say your states of mind (beliefs) are somehow disconnected from justifying knowledge is not a supportive claim but rather a statement of the way things are.

>>3074882

When something becomes such a large social construct it is necessary to differentiate yourself from being in a certain category.

Sexuality
Drinking
Smoking
Married/Single

Noise in the system is just noise, if your opinion doesn't stand out it gets buried.

Fuck that is a stupid quote.

>>3074950
>>3074954
>Agnostics going off on a tangent because they don't have valid reason for their differential position

>>3074954
>it is necessary to differentiate yourself from being in a certain category

Only if you're a hipster.

>>3074757
>>3074757
>>3074757
>>3074757

>you will never be smart enough to realize that agnosticism is not a valid third option

sadfrog.jpg

Let's provide some basic definitions shall we?

Atheist: Knows that God does not exist.

Theist: Knows that God exists.

Agnostic Atheists: Believes that God does not exist but yet does not say to know that God exists.

Agnostic Theists: Believes that God exists but yet does not say to know that God exists.

>>3074976
>Atheist: Knows that God does not exist.

Strike one. Actually, this is such persistent nonsense, it's three strikes; you're out.

>>3074976
Until you can prove something does exist, it may as well not exist. Especially when that something is by definition not of the physical observable universe. If it's not there, it may as well not exist. Go, prove to me that it's there.

>>3074966

Diversity =/= non-conformist.

>>3074946

Allow me to clarify. I agree that to have "atheism" as a class of belief is unnecessary by virtue of the fact that we do not have "a-philately" and "a-trombonists"; if we have names for those who lack a belief in god, why not have names for those who lack other kinds of beliefs or practices.

However, I hold that "atheism/theism" is still a correct classification despite it's unnecessary nature. You can't be both, but can't be not both.

Agnosticism, is not a belief position, it is rather an epistemological position

>>3074993
But absolute truth exists out of proof
Disagree? Prove that you exist

>>3074987

Please provide an alternate definition then.

>>3075015
It's an unnecessary "epistemological position". tell me, what are the implication of this clarification as opposed to say regular atheist?

>>3074960

*AHEM*

>>3074950 , I'm an atheist with "weak" (as in " I can't have ultimate knowledge of a god's non-existence, but the evidence points to it") agnostic epistemology.

atheist - I don't think god exists, because if I did I would subscribe to a religion. I understand that I cannot say god does not exist because it is unprovable.

neoathiest - god does not exist.

Humanism is the only worthwhile position because the concept and meaning of the word God can never be agreed upon

>>3075073
-.-

Because it doesnt exist...

>>3074898
Thank you. Was about to ask for this word as I could not remember.

>>3075033

>It's an unnecessary "epistemological position"
Again, no disagreements.

> tell me, what are the implication of this clarification as opposed to say regular atheist?

What is a regular atheist? or a regular theist for that matter?

Assuming a "regular atheist" would make a statement like "there is no god", then this would mean that said person 1. Lack a belief in god. 2. makes claim about the nature of reality (that is a reality lacking a god).

If said person is an "agnostic atheist" on the other hand, then this would mean that this person is characterized as such: 1. lacks belief in a god 2. makes no claim the nature of reality (doesn't know if reality is such that it lacks a god.)

>>3075082
Of course, my darling.

>>3075090
I'm sorry I can't say anything more than atheism (without excessive clarification) already accounts for gaps in current knowledge. But whatever is in that gap (god or anything) may well not exist just now. There is no need to account for it and accounting for it has no bearing on anything that is known (other than basing your arguments and decision making on personal whim)

If you don't get that, then I don't know what to say. I hope you find peace in your agnosticism. Farewell, friend.

>>3075144
>I'm sorry I can't say anything more than atheism (without excessive clarification) already accounts for gaps in current knowledge. But whatever is in that gap (god or anything) may well not exist just now. There is no need to account for it and accounting for it has no bearing on anything that is known (other than basing your arguments and decision making on personal whim)

Yet again, i'm not really disagreeing with you here. To say a position exists is not to say that it's right.

>I hope you find peace in your agnosticism
>thinks I'm agnostic

>>3075090
An agnostic atheist IS a regular atheist.
Your assumption was simply wrong.
BTW, not the guy you were replying to.

>>3074747
>beliefs depend on intelligence

>>3075231

Lol, never really heard the definition of a regular atheist so okay =/

>>3075262
I'm going off anecdotal evidence here, not a definition in a dictionary.
I just happen to know that atheists that claim to know that god doesn't exist are quite rare, if very vocal. As they are in the minority of atheists, a regular atheist would of the kind that do not make claims about the nature of reality.

>>3075231
You're taking it like Theist, Atheist and Agnostic are in seperate sets.

Idiots who try to say theres two types of agnostics, or two types of theists..or whatever

They're stupid.

The discussion has three parts:
1) Theist asserts god's existence
2) Atheist denies god's existence
3) Agnostic ignores god's existence.

In 3) it doesn't matter whether god does or doesn't exist.

>>3075320

-sigh-

this is not true.

for the millionth-fucking-time

<span class="math">ATHEISM \Longleftrightarrow NO BELIEF IN GOD[/spoiler]

<span class="math">THEISM \Longleftrightarrow BELIEF IN GOD [/spoiler]

<span class="math"> ATHEISM \Longleftrightarrow \neg THEISM [/spoiler]

<span class="math"> THEISM \Longleftrightarrow \neg ATHEISM [/spoiler]

<span class="math"> AGNOSTIC \rightarriw (ATHEIST \vee THEIST) [/spoiler]

>>3075231
Yeah so you dont need to clarify agnosticism

>>3075390

fail

<span class="math"> AGNOSTIC \rightarrow (ATHEIST \vee THEIST) [/spoiler]

in other words

<span class="math"> Gx \equiv x \: is \: agnostic , Ax \equiv x \: is \: atheist, Tx \equiv x \: is \: theist [/spoiler]

<span class="math">1. (\forall x)(Gx \supset (Ax \vee Tx)) [/spoiler]

>>3075320
3) is apatheism

>>3075513
It is outside of the set, inside the set, agnostic is a position that asserts neither position to be correct.

>>3075390
>>3075403
>>3075500
Shit, guiz.

I didn't mean to bring out the jsmath rage.

>giggling.

>>3075536

lulz

Atheism: The belief there are no gods
Agnosticism: The belief that the question of whether gods exist or not is unanswerable
Theism: The belief in gods

Sources: Every reputable dictionary

>Mfw I'm an Agnostic Atheist

If being intelligence means being agnostic, then call me Retard McSpakypants.

>>3075633

All intelligent atheists are more specifically agnostic atheist.

>>3075604
>Atheism: The belief there are no gods
>Source: Every Reputable Dictionary
The sad thing is, I looked it up to try and call you out on your bullshit, and you're right.
Which is a very, very sad thing.

>>3075647
I don't think there's any such thing as a gnostic atheist.

>>3075604

commits 1. the fallacy of equivocation on the word belief, and 2. provides false definitions

Theism = belief in a god
Atheism = lacking a belief in a god

barring the false definitions...

These kind of belief statements (belief statements with regards to an entity)
>Theism: The belief in gods
>Atheism: The belief there are no gods

differ from this statement (belief statement in the knowability of the entity)
>Agnosticism: The belief that the question of whether gods exist or not is unanswerable

>>3075647
>Intelligent
>Atheists

>>3075604
>Sources: Every reputable dictionary

Reputable dictionaries often provide misleading if not incomplete definitions of words especially words that have a very technical definition.

E.g. go look up evolution in the dictionaries. Most of the time you'll get a gravely lacking definition

>>3075694
>implies he's the reputable source of all definitions with which he himself works

If you've read the god delusion you'll know that everyone is agnostic in the sense that they are 99% sure that something doesn't exist but can't be empirically certain. Fairy Agnostic.

The division and in fighting between atheists and agnostics is hilarious.

>>3075694
>>3075657
>>3075654
>Butthurt teenage hipster

>>3075694
>Reputable dictionaries
>provide misleading if not incomplete definitions

Pick one

>>3075708
>thinks >>3075694 claimed to be the reputable source of all definitions with which he himself works, and should therefore blow it out his ass

>>3075726
>implies a false dichotomy

>>3075713
Heh.

>cites god delusion as a serious examination of the subject

mfw

>>3075647
Absolute knowledge does not exist.
Any definition of knowledge that is useful in normal conversation lets one be a gnostic atheist and plenty intelligent.

The distinction shouldn't be needed and it's sad that it not only is but that lots of otherwise intelligent and rational people propagate the meme that it's somehow unreasonable to not be agnostic.

I'm as agnostic about god as I am about santa. If you can't tell my why there's a difference then maybe you could explain to me what meaning the term agnostic really conveys or you know shut the fuck up.

>>3075762
except agnostic is always used in relation to atheism and theism.

So if you enter a conversation between atheists and theists, saying you're agnostic is enough of an answer.

>>3075747

Can you not read what I'm saying and comprehend it? It doesn't matter if it came from the mouth of a prostitute or a doctor, it makes complete fucking sense.

>>3075806
Really? You're going to cite...a statistic, a completely unverifiable statistic, in an argument about verifiable existences..of..god?

So what you're telling me, of all the inexistent things you're willing to believe, god is not one of them?

You realize this is why we're agnostic, and you're atheist.