/sci/ - Science & Math

Not a very stable population without them.

>>3022189
Will you say that when monsanto subsidizes terminator seeds that lock up the food supply of the globe?

OP: I have friends in Monsanto and they are not that bad. I do not think that they will ever control the whole food supply. There are many crops they are not interested because of size of market, difficulty of doing breeding, etc.

with a projected world population of about 20 billion by 2060 transgenic crops and indeed livestock will be absolutely necessary. the argument against is an ethical one without consideration for the consequences of going without this tool..

>>3022210
>paid to shill
>shill

>>3022210
Also it's not like they are the only scientists in the world

>>3022215
So it's ok to lock up the food supply with crops that bear no viable seeds because theres people who need ... ?

>>3022215
No UN projection is as high as 20 billion.

Personally, I'm in favor of the use of GM food but I don't think failure for a country to do so will doom it. It's like any other farming tool: you can get by without one of them. But doing so is needlessly hobbling yourself.

>>3022189
>famous cook
A cook has no business dealing with the science behind transgenic crops.
Unless Peruvian's and most people stop reproducing at insane rates (mostly developing countries) the need for transgenic crops, GMOs, Ammonia production must increase.

We sadly can't afford to go exclusively organic, many would starve just so that people can have a false impression that organic is better.

>Do you think that a country can survive in the long term without transgenic crops?

Yes.

>>3022230
1. Terminator genes are not the same thing as GM food.
2. GM foods are far superior on a variety of criteria such as yield and pest control.
3. GM food costs a lot of money to develop.
4. Terminator genes are used so you can make that money back.
5. WTF does "lock up" the food supply even mean? Non-GM seeds don't just disappear because companies sell GM food.

>>3022267
uh. I'm sorry, but GM is anything that's had it's gene's spliced with another specie's genes.

You have to be delusional if you think GM producers arn't sciencing hard to get a viable terminator gene into every single GM crop they can fathom to produce.

I hate slippery slope arguments, but it's quite easy to see how monsanto, with a terminator GM crop, would subsidize then enslave countless third world nations and their 1st world donors.

You ain't gonna conspire for this event, as pure economics suffice to bring it in.

>>3022267
the person you are referring to, is a conspiracy theorist who thinks Monsanto is part of the NWO

Humans have always eaten from biological products which grow from earth and only require earthly material to grow. Why would change this beautiful cycle of nature ?

>>3022277
Hahahhahaha

Bravo, sir.

A) Monsanto patents crops. It is effectively illegal to grow corn or soybean <10 miles from a Monsanto plot, which is the majority of viable land in the united states. This is bad for farmers. This could be devastating if a insect/bacteria capitalizes on this. [1]

B) Transgenic crops produce better yields. Period. You can feed more people with them, they take up less land, farmers make more money, etc... It is more efficient. However the incentive for corporations to improve upon existing crops isn't there if there isn't patents. IDK what to do and haven't seen a good solution put forward.
[1] Going to Seed?: Using Monsanto as a Case Study to Examine the Patent and Antitrust Implications of the Sale and Use of Genetically Modified Seeds. Tempe Smith. 61 Ala. L. Rev. 629

I honestly will take up arms if this terminator gene shit ever takes hold.

>>3022277
>but it's quite easy to see how monsanto, with a terminator GM crop, would subsidize then enslave countless third world nations and their 1st world donors.

Forgive me but I must be very stupid. *How* exactly would Monsato "enslave" third world countries? (And why hasn't this happened already anywhere?) Do you think all the non-GM seeds without terminators will just disappear from the country? And even if they magically did, why couldn't the country buy non terminator seeds from somewhere else, or buy GM seeds from somewhere other than Monstato?

When you think a corporation is going to enslave you through an item as cheap and as abundant as normal seeds, and an event like that has never EVER happened before, you need some pretty fucking strong evidence to avoid being a conspiracy theory. Hell, dozens of countries are food importers TODAY. Do you think they are all "enslaved" because they have to buy their food?

>>3022284
because we need something to do.

>green revolution
>running out of bat dung
>modify crops to compensate

>>3022304
>IDK what to do and haven't seen a good solution put forward.

STOP PATENTING LIFE.

"Could you patent the Sun?"

>>3022319
modify that last bit
>pin all our hopes on expensive hi-tech voodoo because we can't think of anything useful to do

People are fear mongering idiots. Ethics and law need to be considered thoroughly and not pushed through by a retarded chef on television.

>>3022284

Humans have been applying fertilizers (manure) and pesticides (chilli solutions) to crops for thousand of year. You have a idealistic vision of how agriculture works. Without additions, and plant breeding the green revolution that increase crop's tield coud have not happen.
Remember the potatoe famine?

>>3022315
I forgive you, stupid is like universal entropy.

>>3022365
Like the fears we'll run out of food if we don't modify our plants rather than say, examine the actual efficiency of large scale farming?

>>3022331
Without patents there is no motive for companies to invest and improve upon existing technology. Before Monsanto, academia gave us all of our crops, and did so without any of the successes of modern agriculture. I.e. round-up ready crops. We can now feed more people, cheaper. Patents are a necessity. How they're implemented is another matter.

>>3022404
Tell that to Dr. Borlaug

>>3022415
>Throughout his years of research, Borlaug's programs often faced opposition by people who consider genetic crossbreeding to be unnatural or to have negative effects.[25] Borlaug's work has been criticized for bringing large-scale monoculture, input-intensive farming techniques to countries that had previously relied on subsistence farming.[26] These farming techniques reap large profits for U.S. agribusiness and agrochemical corporations such as ***Monsanto Company*** and have been criticized for widening social inequality in the countries owing to uneven food distribution while forcing a capitalist agenda of U.S. corporations onto countries that had undergone land reform.[27]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug

Tell that to Dr Borlaug indeed.

>>3022404
eh?

problem: farming is more than just adequate crop seeds

>>3022404
eh? Theres motive to have a better crop efficiency/production.

Just because two idiots have the same plans, doesn't mean they'll produce the same product.

>>3022189
HAHAHAHAH

Your country can not only survive without transgenic crops, but thrive. If you listen to me, I can make you a rich man.
1.) Contact your agriculture minister and your foreign minister.
2.)Get them to put out feelers to an American show called Oprah, another show called Dr. Oz will also work well.
3.) Announce Peru and its farmers' commitment to organic farming and no transgenic crops. In addition to this announcement, come up with a "Certified Peruvian Organic, Fair Trade" logo or brand for Peruvian crops that are exported. Slap that sticker/logo on all agricultural products leaving Peru for the USA.
5.) Charge wholesalers or distributors a higher price for your crops labeled with the logo/brand.
6.) Marvel as retarded Americans flock to buy your agricultural products (wool, quinoa, coffee, etc.) at ABSURD prices and profit for you.

So long as Americans are stupid, you can make money off of this... so it'll work for forever.

>>3022384

Genetic engineering has been used for a long time now. Transgenetic engineering has as well.

You don't belong in /sci. Go to /b or something.

>>3022447

Profit!

This thread is a prime example of the ill-guided ethics fostered by technophobia and noble savage syndrome. Corporate interests are easy to bitch about but the other side of American shortcomings are exemplified by a non-corporate demographic who thinks they're allergic to gluten and blindly trusts is organic/fair-trade labelling. No one thinks they're the villain.

>>3022469

You are right. There are too many herp-derp-the-sky-is-falling-technophobes. I just didn't expect to see them on /sci. What's up with that?

>>3022447

This argument is rather unfair. For instance, biology is my "forte" (M.S. in Microbiology, might do PhD)

However, I know almost nothing about electrochemistry (besides what basic undergrad courses taught) and I can't do my taxes as well as an accountant.

Can't expect people to know everything in the world..

>>3022469
>>3022483
It's those stupid fucking poor people!
think they know everything
if only we could make them shut up so we could save them from themselves

>>3022469
Remember, the modern anti vaccination movement isn’t some backwater christfag thing, its primarily an upper middleclass liberal WASP thing, the notion that anyone is immune to anti scientific faggotry is extremely dangerous.

>>3022469
Right, and the otherside waves there hands and thinks all progress is good progress and a regulation should never get in the way of an extra percentage on the GDP

>>3022459
I'm not joking about this. If you can get the Peruvian agricultural ministry (or whatever government agency ostensibly handles this kind of this) to go along with it and throw its weight behind promotion in the US... you'll get rich.
Americans (specifically our women) are uninformed about how transgenic crops work and will happily buy almost anything to feel better about themselves, their health, or to fit in. Remember the Acai berry trend? Peru partially cashed in on that. The massive increase in acai price and demand were precipitated largely by Oprah and her "medical expert" Dr. Oz. If you can pull of something similar and manage to attach an ultimately meaningless label onto your (otherwise not very valuable) crops... you'll be rolling in more money than you can imagine. Remember that Peru, as of 2006, has a free trade agreement with the USA and you can control whatever "organic" and "fair trade" means because the certification is from Peru, not the US.

Thread conclusion: Spaceship Earth hit Derp Drive!!!!!

I'm going back to studying.

Wow, the Monsanto Internet Defense Force is out in strength today.

Progress is good, but putting a patent on life is a crime against nature and yet another step to the complete servitude of man to capital. Science must not be unchecked by morals and must not serve the interests of profit.

>>3022459

OP here. I think that organic farming is profitable at small scale and that will be a good source of income for farmers. Some medicinal plants have also a specialized market.

However, we still need to produce food for ourselves and without GMs the prices will be too expensives for regular people to afford, and if other countries use GMs for our main exportation crops such as asparragus we will get in trouble.

>>3022498
It doesn't matter! You don't need a degree to tell Americans what they want. You don't even need real research to go on TV and say that "Peruvian organic, fair trade" products are beneficial to health.

I'm not arguing with you at all, nor am I at all concerned with the moral implications of transgenic crops and corporate ownership of agriculture in developing economies.

What I'm trying to give to you is a way to become absurdly wealthy that really requires nothing more than a bullshit campaign. I bet quadrupling the price of your agricultural exports would go a long way towards building your economy through re-investment. I'm also positive that if you take an active role in doing this and trademark the "Certified Peruvian organic, fair trade" logo/brand, you'll be disgustingly wealthy.

GM crops and vertical farming will be necessary going forward if we are to avoid widespread famine.

>>3022573

You don't modify living organism but modifications of them. You can put a gene for insulin into bacteria and produce at large scale insulin for diabetics. This is a novel solution using living organisms and thus patentable.

This may sound dumb but why are we even bothering with GM crops? To feed the world? America has enough farm land to feed the entire world but refuses to do so because they don't want to lower cost of food. Now we're giving people GM crops and saying we want to do it to end world hunger?!? It seems contradictory to me.

Also don't GM crops have less stable DNA? More prone to mutations and what not. I honestly don't trust that the people who are pushing these GM crops are competent enough to know with 100% certainty they're safe. I mean it took decades for us to learn that smoking tobacco causes cancer. One decade FDA declares that eating eggs is bad for you, next decade they say eggs are healthy, then FDA says eggs are full of cholesterol.

I just feel like this stuff isn't thoroughly tested enough. Like the entire thing is one big experiment and we're the lab rats they're testing this stuff on.

I'm not saying GM is bad, I'm just saying when you create crops that are super resilient, fast growing, easy to sow then there's ZERO margin for error. One mistake and you could have a harmful invasive or toxic plant growing EVERYWHERE. And don't tell me that can't happen because it HAS happened. We're still trying to deal with the aftermath of failed attempts to improve farming.

>>3022585
FUCK that shit. Import your goddamn food crops. Your country doesn't have much arable land anyway. Why waste it on food crops for domestic consumption when you could use it to make a VERY healthy profit and just import what you need at relatively cheap prices?

>American capitalist
>Unashamed, opportunistic, and exploitative
>Yes, we can even get our fingers into organic farming to make profits at your expense
>YFW the founder and CEO of Whole Foods is a union-busting Ayn Randist

>>3022602
That's just the thing Dr. Octopus, we aren't going to avoid widespread famine.
Hell, we can't even prevent famine right now

>>3022606
>I just feel like this stuff isn't thoroughly tested enough.
By your logic wild-type corn isn't thoroughly tested enough.

>>3022606

Where did you get that fact? The bullshit convention? We subsidize our farms here. Theoretically if we turn all our land into farm land then we could feed the rest of the world for, but same argument goes for Australia.

>>3022648
I know that feel when derp makes you rage, bro.

Seriously though, let's do something more productive than just rage about the derp, let's exploit it!

>>3022606
-DNA is a stable as it can be
-Safety testing is more rigorous than non-gm crops
-Same margin of error as non-gm crops. Traditional plant breeding is also based on genetic modification, so genes can also "escape" and create superweeds.
-Farming is subsidized in the US, labor cost is main reason it is so expensive. That is the main reason behind seasonal workers.