/sci/ - Science & Math

Remember this chart and feel the rage once more.

>>2989525
That doesn't make anybody rage because it's bullshit. Fuck off.

>The mystery is so much more fun
you are the kind of mongoloid faggot who whines when the trick in a magic trick is explained aren’t you.

>>2989525
2/10
Also, I'm immune to this, it's irreversible so just deal with it, man the fuck up and do some science.

>>2989525

You know, it wasn't actually the "christian" dark ages, it was just the dark ages that happened to have christianity.

The dark ages were brought on by the collapse of the roman empire, which was brought on by repeated barbarian raids (also Huns) and mass corruption in the government.

>>2989531
Did you even read the OP?

>>2989501
>mfw I explain slowly that I won't share any cancer research that I carry out with them
>mfw I suggest they stock up on morphine because of how unbearable it will be if it happens to them

>>2989501
I still rage. It makes me feel pretty ineffectual and impotent. On the subject, I rage when scientists use the scientific method only in their research, and act like irrational noobs on every other area of their lives.
I'm curious - does anyone know of any stats concerning the amount/percentage of people involved in scientific research?

Can science answer whether murder is wrong?

>>2989554
I stopped raging when I realized I was just shouting at walls. Laugh on, once you realize how cute and funny it is, it's almost fun.

>>2989558
Murder is defined as a killing that brings no good to society. Killing hitler or Osama was not murder because society benefitted from it, and if society does not, than it's murder, and then by definition, it is wrong and bad.

As a psych undergrad I'm buttmad that psychology took so long to conclude this that shitty pseudo-sciences like sociology and anthropology had to step up to the plate and inb4'd.

>>2989558
Science says murder is not wrong, because eventually everything will be destroyed and none of this will have mattered anyway.

>the fury of a black hole

>>2989501

>There are things science can't explain

>"Science is more than a body of knowledge.
It's a way of thinking.
A way of skeptically interrogating the universe."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PT90dAA49Q

If you haven't already, listen to this.
Always makes me feel better.

>Fuck yeah, Symphony of Science!

>>2989558
>implying that that's an interesting question...
>>2989573
The thing for me is that, I've basically thrown away all my social graces to make "REASON LOGIC SCIENCE SINCERITY AAAARRRGGGHH COME ON LISTEN DON'T BE SUCH A COCK" rants. I have to suffer the consequences of silliness on others' parts all the time, and it wears me down. I'm also a grad student in a foreign land, and shitsux like that. I expect I'll feel better once I get back to the west, but I'm isolated enough to feel quite jaded right now.

>>2989579
>Black Hole
>An object nothing can escape from
>Even light
>Fury of a black hole
>A fury nothing can escape from

Do I need to draw it out for you or something?

At this stage, I don't give a fuck.

I'll have a discussion with you, I'll have an argument with you, but I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything anymore. I'm just trying to show why I think what I do, what my opinions and positions are based on.

Online, I will be more forward. It is possible to have a far more frank discussion here before people retreat into illogical or emotional arguments, though you do run the risk of being trolled. In real life I am more reserved. There are no useful conversations possible with people who become offended at disagreement, or people who are solely trying to convert you, so I am careful to not the early signs of these. It is easier to spot than a troll, but far more head breaking if you miss it long enough to drawn into it.

>>2989615
>draw a black hole

>>2989501

>Just a theory
>But homeopathy is based on science!
>Those scientists are working for the government, you can't trust their findings!
>Of course they say that, that research group is part of BIG PHARMA.

>>2989680

>Anybody defending homeopathy, ever.

Seriously, some day I'm gonna pull a James Randi on their asses.

My econ teacher once said that the moon was "In our atmosphere"

mfw

>>2989660

all of my rage

just a reminder were all gonna die


nihilist

>>2989698

What?

Excuse my ignorance, but "I'm gonna pull a James Randi"?

What?

>>2989719
i think james randi is the guy who brings presents every year on christmas eve

>>2989698
>James Randi
You have misspelled crane kick.

>>2989719

Find a drug store, buy some homeopathic sleeping pills, ask them to verify that these pills would work, read the description on the back (usually something about "If you swallow more than 3, contact a doctor").

Then swallow 64 of the fuckers.

And ask them if they still think it works.

>>2989680

MFW I told my mum about the $1million homoeopathy challenge saying that anyone who believed in homoeopathy was a retart

MFW she said she believed in it

>>2989739
>retart

i always lol at the irony of this misspelling

>>2989739

I think you misspelled retort

>>2989719

James Randi is the guy offering $1million to anyone who can prove paranormal or psychic abilities are true, and more recently, homoeopathy.

The paranormal one has been running since the 70s IIRC

>>2989732
>Attempting to make an argument based on reason and experimentation to a person that rejects arguments, reason and experimentation

You may face a few difficulties getting your point across.

>>2989744

>implying it wasn't on purpose
>implying I wasn't trying to start another 'moran'

>>2989746
he chooses to ignore the numerous double blind controlled studies of homeopathy in animals.

>>2989732

They did this last year in the UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7028989/Boots-hit-by-mass-homeopathy-overdose.html

>>2989755

>in animals

5/10, almost raged.

>>2989755
Link them.

>>2989746
he's a magician who uses his magic powers to prevent people from winning

>>2989768
lol'd

>>2989723
Isn't he a professional Darwin look-alike? Only a homo?

>>2989760
NHS still funds it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8330749/Homeopathy-still-being-funded-on-NHS.html

and something like 70% of german MDs use homeopathy at least occasionally.

placebo is goddamn cost effective medicine.

>>2989787
>placebo is goddamn cost effective medicine.

This. Placebo is a good antianxiety medication.

Um, isn't homeopathy just using plant extracts as medicine?
Sure lots is bullshit but keep in mind, for instance, that all opiates come from poppies.

>>2989791
Derp. Herbalism != homeopathy

Herbalism is bullshit a lot of the time, but not always.

>>2989791
No, it's different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

>Homeopathy (pronunciation: Listeni /ˌhoʊmiˈɒpəθi/; also spelled homoeopathy[1] or homœopathy) is a form of alternative medicine in which practitioners treat patients using highly diluted[2][3] preparations that are believed to cause healthy people to exhibit symptoms that are similar to those exhibited by the patient. The collective weight of scientific evidence has found homeopathy to be no more effective than a placebo.[2][3][4][5][6]

>>2989791
this is a common misconception, because some homeopathic formulas include botanical extracts.

botanical medicine has tons of evidence and is often quite potent, from a standard scientific perspective. homeopathy is not, it uses "infinitely large" dilutions such that no amount of the original substance remains in the formula.

>>2989791

It's giving the wrong medicin, and then diluting it to the point that there's nothing in it put water/pills and then selling it at twice the price.

>>2989501
>mfw. I used to rage with the fury of a black hole, but after 2 years of psychology and hearing this bullshit on a daily basis, I'm pretty much shielded.
Let's put that to the test.

>>2989791
Seriously, everyone I've talked with who uses homeopathy thinks the exact same thing. And when I tell what it actually is, they think that's only for 'some' of the treatments, and keep on using it, claiming it works for them.

Fuck.

>'Natural' remedies = better derp.
>They've been using herb 'x' since ancient times! It must work

I rage. I can't remeber what it was, but there was a good quote:

'Yes, some herbal remedies work. So we took them concentrated them, and called it MEDICINE.'

>>2989813
it does work for many people.

try to find one drug trial where the placebo response rate was zero. it doesn't exist, hell it doesn't even exist for surgery trials. placebo always work a certain percentage of the time.

>>2989791

Homoeopathy is the idea that like cures like. E.g. poison ivy causes a rash, therefore by applying poison ivy to a rash it will get rid of it.

They also believes that the more dilute a solution is the more effective it is. They dilute it to a factor known as 30C, meaning that it has been diluted by a factor of 10^60. Meaning most of the time, the 'cure' you are getting is 100% water

They also believe that water has the ability to 'remember' molecules

>>2989808
>I also think magnetism is magical.

>>2989820
that was true in the 20's, then pharma got a lot of really effective concentrated herbals removed from the AMA's definition of medicine, such that today most american MDs ignore the vast majority of proven botanical medicine by lumping it with the newage bullshit like homeopathy.

>>2989791

Homeopathy. The idea that the weaker the mixture, the stronger the effect.

Which is why every time we drink a glass of water from the tap, we become raging drunk, are poisoned to death, and cured of all our ailments.

>>2989824

Of course, it's placebo, that's what it's supposed to do.

Make an effect appear that doesn't exist, by making you think it works.

But it doesn't work because of the medicine.It works because people want it to work.

>>2989824
The problem is not that it's a placebo, is that it's hugely more expensive, (in many places) paid for by taxpayers, and marketed as an alternative to real medicine. Which it shouldn't be, because therwe ARE some things placebos aren't good for, and people might be tricked into thinking it's okay to not use actual treatments. And they'll just get more sick.

>>2989808
As a magician, I deeply understand the terms illusion and magic, and by using them in the context he did, he simply shot himself in the foot. Thrice.
Also, logical fallacies all up in this bitch. At least 4 in the second half.

Meh. The public he is writing to is too ignorant to understand proper argument and they are mostly retards that don't change shit. If they weren't allowed to vote I wouldn't give one single fuck, but since they are, I must say I give some measure of a fuck, but not much beyond that.

>>2989824
Placebo only affects the subjective experience of non-specific symptoms, nothing more. It doesn't have any longterm efficacy either. If a treatment is as efficacious in a study as its placebo control, then it's considered non-efficacious.

So, no, homeopathy doesn't "work" for anyone. It deludes some people into experiencing a temporary sense of improvement, but that's not "working" in the medical sense.

>>2989841
full retard bullshit. i've never seen a plain homeopathic prescription cost more than ~$10.

>>2989846
>>2989840
>have zero understanding of placebo effect

>>2989808
Rage level: 3/10

>>2989860
>10 dollars isn't expensive for water

Wat.

And, what don't they get about placebo effect?

>>2989860
>have zero understanding of placebo effect
Try an argument next time. You're not impressing anyone with your greentext bullshit here.

>>2989865
>And, what don't they get about placebo effect?
I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm assuming he's one of those "Mind over matter" people who think the human mind can fool the body into not dying from cancer.

when you give a placebo(homeopathic) for anxiety or depression, about 40% of patients respond with <5% side-effects. cost ~$10

when you give a prescription(drug) for the same ~45% respond, with >20% reporting side-effects. cost $50-$200

both cases work, they have different mechanisms of action, one is dirt cheap and the opther rapes the taxpayer and causes vastly more side-effects for the patient.

>Non-scientific knowledge is just as good and valid as scientific knowledge
>Why scientists want to explain everything? The mystery is so much more fun

People say this OP? What are you in fucking South Carolina? I mean the first two are just a natural response for those who aren't ready to fully release their grip on religion... or solipsism, or existentialism, or belief in free will, or any philosophy regardless of whether it's written in story form.

But those two, goddamn dude. "People don't shouldn't have to accept empirically proven truth if ignorance makes them feel better."

>>2989875
find one cancer drug clinical trial that shows 0% response rate for the placebo.

>>2989886
Actually, one is practically free. If you can convince yourself that a glass of water has the power to cure you, you don't need to spend any money on homeopathic remedies.

>>2989805
>>2989804
>>2989803
>>2989797
>>2989828
>>2989836

Well ok then, I learned something today. Thanks for not flaming the hell out of me.

>>2989904
What I find odd is that none of the people who believe in homeopathy have said to themselves "hang on! it's just water!" and gone ahead to self-medicate with tap water. Surely if they are retarded enough to believe in the first place, they would be dumb enough to convince themselves that this would work?

>>2989904
>>2989911

neither of you understand the placebo effect. the patient must receive the placebo from a real doctor(or someone they trust as such) and must not be aware that the placebo is in fact a placebo.

look up some of the investigations into placebo effect in opiate painkillers. shit is fucking mind-blowing.

>>2989911
People who believe in homeopathy wouldn't think "Wait, it's just water," because then they wouldn't believe in homeopathy. I'm sure people have used the placebo effect straight-up with just water, but you don't tend to hear about them. They're not as interesting.

>>2989922
The placebo effect is based on faith. You don't have to receive it from a doctor or trusted source for it to work.

Conversation with two of my friends the other day.
>"Climate Change is clearly a myth created by Governments to control the people"
>I point out that most Governments avoid big Climate Change policies
>"Well, its all natural anyway, there was an ice age, you know"
>I say that actually there's not a single Scientific body of National and International standing that says that the major contributor to Climate Change in the last hundred years or so ISN'T human activity
>"Yeah, well Scientists just make stuff up. I mean, look at the whole idea of a Big Bang..."

They're intelligent people, I swear

>>2989930
this is wrong. if the patient doesn't believe they are recieving actual treatment, then it isn't the placebo effect. you're talking about prayer or something.

>>2989963
>there's not a single Scientific body of National and International standing that says that the major contributor to Climate Change in the last hundred years or so ISN'T human activity

appeal to authority

>mfw I watched a James Randi talk on youtube, and one of the dissenting comments talked about negative concentrations

>>2989896
Ohoho, how about you find me one that shows even 1 fucking percent of verifiable, *physiological* response to the placebo? Placebo doesn't affect cancer in any measurable way; it affects a person's *experience* of it.

>>2989886
>when you give a placebo(homeopathic) for anxiety or depression, about 40% of patients respond with <5% side-effects. cost ~$10
As I said, subjective improvement of non-specific symptoms. This wouldn't be considered efficacious by any medical standard, since it's a purely psychogenic effect (with actual, physiological responses, mind you) of the "ritual" of being treated, not the actual drug. You could have prescribed therapeutic touch, chiropractic, or just plain "Random groping by some sort of perceived health authority in a white coat", and you'd have gotten the same response.

>>2989981
That's not how that works.

>>2989830
>>2989842
>>2989863
That kinda sounded like "MOAR!" to me.

>>2990050
bullshit. it's response is measured by exactly the same scale as the drug themselves. the drug cost 5-20 times as much and treats 5% more people than the placebo while causing ~4 times as many side effects(which in themselves cost money to treat).

the german medical community and much of the UK medical community definitely use placebo(homeopathics) based on that reasoning.

>>2990078
Yes it is.

>>2990096
No rage here.
He is admitting that homeopathy does nothing.
You can chug gallons of it and you will just need to piss a lot afterward since it doesn't do anything.

>>2990096
That isn't rage worthy at all. That's just sad.

Is it real, or did you make it?

>>2990104
they are used heavily in france, greece(et al) too, but they might actually believe in homeopathy there.

>>2990118
homeopathy works exactly as much as placebo. find one clinical trial showing a 0% response rate for placebo, then i will say homeopathy does nothing for that condition.

>rage with the fury of a black hole
>draw a black hole

I raged. Hard.

>>2989525
you forgot the hole left by postmodern dark ages

>>2990104
You may think that repeating the content of the very post I responded to qualifies as a rebuttal if you just put "bullshit" in front of it, but it really doesn't. If you want me to provide you with some of the studies and meta-studies that I'm basing my opinion on, then I'd gladly do so. Here's the rather extensive Cochrane meta-analysis, for example:
http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003974.html

>the german medical community and much of the UK medical community definitely use placebo(homeopathics) based on that reasoning.
And Hippocrates wept, but whether or not it's ethical for practitioners to lie to their patients and prescribe sham treatments isn't really a topic for this board.

>>2990130


Yep. In France homeopathy is everywhere.
It's fucking sad. You see people walking down the street popping open their little homeopathic twist bottles anywhere you look.
It's not just fake doctors who prescribe it either -- Real doctors who have been to medical school. AND the national healthcare plan pays for it entirely.
Fucking ridiculous.

>>2990172
French here, I confirm. My mother believes homeopathy works, even though she knows it's so diluted it contains no active substance.

There ARE things science can't explain.

>>2990170
quote from that link
Larger effects of placebo were also found in trials that did not inform patients about the possible placebo intervention.

they are lying by calling trials were they told the patients they were receiving bullshit, a placebo. that is not a placebo, that is bullshit. the definition of placebo requires the patient believes they are receiving a real treatment.

try publishing a real clinical of a drug where the "placebo" group was told they were receiving "placebo", the reviewers will instantly tell you you do not have a placebo control group, it is completely unacceptable.

>>2990078
It does when you know the appealer hasn't actually read the studies

>>2990119
Oh, no, that stuff is real alright:

www.naturalnews.com/028012_skeptics_medicine.html

>>2990172
this saves your national healthcare system untold of millions of dollars.

>>2990214
What the hell is that crap?

>>2989820

Several comics have made this point, but I think Tim Minchin said it best in his nine-minute beat poem "Storm". The pertinent bit:

"Pharmaceutical companies are the enemy
They promote drug dependency
At the cost of the natural remedies
That are all our bodies need
They are immoral and driven by greed.
Why take drugs
When herbs can solve it?
Why use chemicals
When homeopathic solvents
Can resolve it?
It’s time we all return-to-live
With natural medical alternatives."

And try as hard as I like,
A small crack appears
In my diplomacy-dike.
“By definition”, I begin
“Alternative Medicine”, I continue
“Has either not been proved to work,
Or been proved not to work.
You know what they call “alternative medicine”
That’s been proved to work?
Medicine.”

Seriously, watch this shit, it's great:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U

>>2990240
yea that was true in the first half og the 20th century, then pharma got numerous well proven natural substances removed from the pharmacopaei without any refutation of evidence. there is quite a bit of real evidence for numerous botanicals yet nearly all american MDs lump botanicals in with homeopathy(placebo), which is utter nonsense.

also, minchin and the likes, such as hitchens are total sophists, not even resembling actual scientists.

>>2990206
>the definition of placebo requires the patient believes they are receiving a real treatment.
No, in a clinical trial, the placebo control is simply the group that receives sham treatment. Whether this is being administered with the subject assuming it to be the real thing or not is irrelevant. You're talking about *blinding* in trials, which is a different issue altogether. Don't get me wrong, though. I partially agree with your criticism, because I certainly do believe that, in order to demonstrate the placebo effect to be non-efficacious, the study would have to be properly blinded, but this doesn't invalidate the whole analysis. Try looking at the data before you jump to a conclusion.

There's further research based on it here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20091554
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15257721

>>2990219
Drowning the patients in a tub would save even more.

>>2989558
if you defince wrong properly, it sure can

>>2990307
meant define

>>2990268

I didn't say he was a scientist, you quack motherfucker. I said he was a comic.

From the exact same poem, and it's deliciously pertinent to your quackery:

“So you don’t believe
In ANY Natural remedies?”

“On the contrary actually:
Before we came to tea,
I took a natural remedy
Derived from the bark of a willow tree
A painkiller that’s virtually side-effect free
It’s got a weird name,
Darling, what was it again?
Masprin?
Basprin?
Asprin!
Which I paid about a buck for
Down at my local drugstore."

My rage.

MY FUCKING RAGE.

Black helicopters carrying around the elitist pharma-cops to rain hellfire upon legitimately curative medicine.

Another quick example: hey guess what, I just ate a gingersnap the other day when I got motionsickness and it cleared right up.

FUCKING BOTANICAL with actual scientific evidence to back it up, recommended by real, ethical practicing physicians. The evidence is far from conclusive but at least it EXISTS, which is more than you can say for homeopathy.

Seriously, fuck you.

I fear I have been trolled.

>>2990278
these studies are completely invalidated by the pooling of data between conditions. placebo effect must be measured for one condition, in one context. it makes no sense whatsoever to pool placebo data for multiple conditions unless, like these reviews, you are motivated by pharma profiteers to simply say "placebo does nothing", even though every clinical trial shows some placebo response rate, even surgeries, with some psychological disorders showing as much as 40% response rate to placebo.

frenchies and euro-tards are boosting the cost-effectiveness of their healthcare system immensely by the careful and judicious use of placebo.

>>2990314
>I fear I have been trolled.
He's been going on throughout the entire thread. I'm fairly sure he's serious about his views.

If not, then fuck me, for I've been trolled as well.

>>2990314
here's literally 2 minutes worth of pubmed searching.

peppermint treats IBS
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17420159

thyme treats candida/fungal infections
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20554185

bee pollen treats menopause and high cholesterol/triglycerides
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15775873

but yea, your totally right, every proven natural product is already a prescription drug. keep getting your medical and scientific info from comics and sophists.

I hang out with hippies. They're nice people, but the shit that comes out of their mouth is unbearable sometimes:

>Anything they say about "orgone energy"
>"HAARP uses microwaves to cause earthquakes"
>"The Illuminati is running the planet"
>"I've totally astrally projected"
>"Eating already prepared food is evil"
>[When I was discussing consciousness with them] "The human will moves faster than the speed of light through your body"
>"You don't need pharmaceuticals. Weed/vitamin C/orgonite cures everything"

One of the guys is really smart, but has an improperly tuned bullshit detector and believes any wild claim that's presented to him on the internet.

>>2990325
>these studies are completely invalidated by the pooling of data between conditions.
Well, that's kind of what a meta-analysis is usually supposed to do. The fact that they're pooling the studies doesn't mean that they're equalizing the data. A negative placebo response to sham painkiller treatment is not being lumped in with a negative placebo response to sham rabies treatment. Even the abstract already points out that the efficacy of placebo differed depending on the ailment.

That rabies thing is a hypothetical, by the way. No practitioner, German, British, or else, would actually be insane enough to treat an infectious disease with placebo... you know, because it's non-efficacious.

>placebo effect must be measured for one condition, in one context.
They actually do this by differentiating between what I've been saying earlier: A proper, objective, physiological improvement of specific symptoms, and a subjective, psychogenic improvement of non-specific symptoms. I don't think I need to tell you that the latter did indeed prove positive for the placebo in many studies, while the former was largely absent.

>like these reviews, you are motivated by pharma profiteers to simply say "placebo does nothing"
Yeah, the Cochrane Collaboration is widely known for whoring it up for their Big Pharma pimps.


Anyway, "pharma profiteers" was my cue to lose all interest in this thread. Cheerio.

>>2990361
Oh and I showed them the "Dr. Charlene Werner explains homeopathy" video, and they thought it made sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAOy9PZd_tQ

I think the last two years of high school needs to be dedicated solely to instilling bullshit detectors in teenagers. I'm tired of magical thinking.

>>2990354

Funny, I don't remember buying gingersnaps from a pharmacy or even from an OTC drug store.

Also, peppermint oil and thyme extract are freely available virtually everywhere in the modern world. Thanks for strengthening my argument.

Sweet Zombie Jesus.

>>2990406
here's another kicker for the invalidation of those studies. the title says, "all conditions" then their data shows, a handful of notoriously difficult to replicate conditions, while ignoring simple illnesses like cholesterol, hypertension, blood sugar, that all would provide very solid laboratory confirmation of placebo treatments, yet you somehow manage to believe that publication wasn't influenced by big pharma.

>>2990214
>Skeptics believe that the human body has no ability to defend itself against invading microorganism and that the only things that can save people from viral infections are vaccines.

What the fucking crap, the whole reason vaccines work is because we have that system.

>>2990414
haha that vid is fucking hilarious. i cant tell if she's lying intentionally to extort money out of people, if she honestly thinks she understands einstein's theory or she's just too lazy to really understand science so she'll pretend

>>2990426
its the latter, with homeopaths, >99% of the time, its the latter.

>mfw my sister told me that because knowledge is what leads to sin, science should be outlawed, and we should enjoy being ignorant because that's what God intended

>Can Science answer [insert Philosophy here].
You believe Philosophy. That's why it's so often debated. You can KNOW Science, that's why you should shut the fuck up.

>>2990420
you're not really making sense here.
if you have a headache or back pain, often docotrs will prescibe aspirin. in the US, docotrs will never, ever prescribe thyme or peppermint, even when these have been proven to treat illnesses. just because you can buy them doesn't mean they are part of mainstream medicine. hence they are proven treatments which are part of alternative medicine(at least in the US).

>>2990198
I don't think that's what the OP was objecting to. It's more about ridiculous lines of reasoning such as "Science can't explain everything, therefore, it can't be trusted with anything", or "Science can't explain everything, therefore, my supernatural/superstitious belief is perfectly justified".

>>2990198

No, there are things science can't explain, YET.

Science is the act of finding what's true and what's bullshit.

>>2990445
This is very wrong. Philosophy is the science of how we know what we know and how it applies to us as human beings. It's very exact, and you can know it, just like science. It just so happens that a bunch of idiot philosophy majors decided to get high and make the entire field of study seem like a load of bullshit. Don't make the mistake of condemning the field, though, or of forcing it into the category of "belief".

>>2990445 You can KNOW Science
Let me guess, you're not a scientist
(Hint: you can't know science. All definite truth you can obtain in science is falsification.)