/sci/ - Science & Math

and as i said in the last thread before it 404'd, i'm officially tripping it up for this, like that mad scientist guy who made the hamster underwater habitat.

>>2980933
So how are you going to get critical mass and are you aware of how dangerous fluorine gas is?

>making your own reactor
If it doesn't go kaboom it'll at least irradiate your ass.

>>2980963
i believe in fluorinated salt form, the critical mass isn't all that much. 200 grams should be sufficient with the graphite moderator boosting the chance of fissions. however i might have to run it for a few months just to breed more u233

and yes, fluorine is intensely dangerous. i'm considering making the entire assembly in a slightly-negative-pressure bubble, with fluorine detectors all over the place that are rigged to put the reactor into cold shutdown if they go off. I'll probably have to buy pre-made fluorination machines

>>2980968
the core of this thing cannot actually explode. watch the video. i'm more concerned about the helium engine.
as for radiation? the decay chain of U232 does have some gamma emitters, but that's what the concrete containment is for. the core isn't going to be THAT large

>>2980933
>i called the NRC and oak ridge, turns out it's legal to own about 200 grams of uranium 233
Enjoy your terrorist blacklist.

well i mean, mad scientist was just making a plastic bubble to put pets in. this is a whole other ballgame

>>2981001
i will indeed enjoy it. After signing all the license papers of course.

>>2981004
he actually put some serious thought into it. his project was safer and more straight forward to test but no less intricate

>>2981009
>he thinks due process matters

>>2981034
yeah, i'm sure they'd bring me in for terrorist questioning for using U233. the shit is useless for bombs due to the gamma emissions screwing up electronics

>>2980933
Have you done design work and analysis of your proposed design? At the very least you can build your reactor virtually and see if it works before you start buying things.

Maybe something like this:
www.energyfromthorium.com/ne572/SMMSR_042507.doc

yea, looks legit.

scientific rojorse...
capthca, knows all

>>2981049
>core in that design is 9 feet by 19 feet.
good gravy, that's a lot bigger than i need
>100 megawatts rated electrical output
good gravy, that's a LOT more power than i need, by about 3 orders of magnitude.

however i'm not ENTIRELY certain if there needs to be a certain volume of fuel salt in order to achieve criticality beyond a few hundred grams. i thought the moderator would allow that critical volume to be much much less

This project looks like fun. Wish I had the time/money to do it. For the hastelloy, its not going to be cheap no matter what you do. Molybdenum is expensive. There is a LOT of thorium nitrate buried in the Nevada desert. Exactly where is probably anyones guess.

>>2981101
well, i'm only really looking at hastelloy-N since it's what the guys at ORNL did with the molten salt experiment in 65. it's entirely possible there's a far more efficient and cheap modern alternative

>>2981114
Any good at chemistry? Anything relatively noble to the salt that can withstand the temps should theoretically be fine. Still gotta add some more testing for it, but you knew that.

>>2981101
>Exactly where is probably anyones guess.
Go out there with a geiger counter?

>>2981124
well the heat is only half the story, neutron flux in the fuel salt would be kind of crazy during operation, not to mention lol fluorine.
i'll have to ask around some chemistry departments at universities.

anyone know of universities with solid chemical engineering or materials science degrees?

>>2981101
Nevada test site/national security site. 3200 tonnes of thorium nitrate. Might have a biiiiiit of trouble getting in and out of the place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_National_Security_Site

>>2981225
what indication is there that thorium is there? sadly that wiki article makes no such mention

>>2981248
oh wait, duh, that's the thorium which was isolated during those tests.
to be fair, the government is doing absolutely jack-all with it.

>>2981248
>>2981254
The wiki article doesn't have it, true. I haven't yet been able to isolate a really reliable source, but google "nevada test site thorium nitrate" and you'll see what I mean.

woah, osama's death completely imploding the site

i am bumping this because it is magnificent. good luck to you sir.

Can't wait to see this tragedy in the news. I hope OP doesn't live in my state.

something will leak and super high temp radioactive fluorinated shit will fuck up someone's day. but it's still fantastic and i love the idea that someone is seriously just going for it. please keep us updated.

How exactly do you intend to perform continuous fuel processing to separate out the decay products? This step is not optional in the LFTR design.

>>2981135
>anyone know of universities with solid chemical engineering or materials science degrees?

University of Pittsburgh.

You can also pick up a certificate in nuclear engineering. Westinghouse(makers of the AP-1000) hire some pitt graduates.

>i might remove the beryllium tower assembly and just let the Pa233 decay in the thorium blanket

Fuck no that will breed neptunium and eventually plutonium if you leave your decay products in the blanket.

this: >>2983531

You must process this shit out of your fuel. It is not an option.

>>2983678
rats. fuckin' Pa233 mang.

however if i keep the thorium blanket constantly moving and filtering out the u233, it might reduce the chances of the Pa233 catching more neutrons.

the problem is that the beryllium tower would probably need to be big, and constantly molten (meaning it needs heat from the core)

>>2983705
>however if i keep the thorium blanket constantly moving and filtering out the u233, it might reduce the chances of the Pa233 catching more neutrons.

Not good enough.

Do NOT fuck around with trans-uranics.

>>2983705
whops, forgot mah trip
>>2983521
i'm actually much more concerned about fluorine leaks than the fuel. Shit corrosive, but can probably be handled.
the fuel requires such a high temperature to stay molten, and transfers heat so quickly that if it leaks at all, the salt will freeze back and plug the hole it created.

>>2983721
well the thing is that any transuranics created can be filtered out during operation with a few extra steps.
but at that point it's probably cheaper and safer to stick with the beryllium tower

>>2983733

The headache from trans-uranics is less the filtering and more the disposal and storage. You got somewhere to keep plutonium for 200,000 years? No? Then don't let the reactor breed it.

Going about it all wrong.
Use an external Neutron source to kickstart the Thorium. No need for initial Uranium and you can moderate the reaction so that it isn't self sustaining.

>>2983795
the reaction isn't self sustaining anyway. It only really runs and keeps itself molten when flowing through the graphite moderator in the core. as soon as it's dumped into the drain tanks, it freezes back solid.

apparently the bar minimum critical mass for U233 is like 16kg. but that's solid un-moderated U233

>>2984596
Moderation is going to crank that number up, but I would double-check the figures here because you're asking for at least an order of magnitude difference here...

>>2984919
indeed
a big obstacle to this entire project is my lack of the necessary equations to begin the number crunching process. being a computer science major and not a nuclear engineering major is kind of hindrance to this.
but damnit i'll see this through in some form

i'm looking into modern ceramics as a coating replacement for the hastelloy. Hastelloy is fantastic for high temp high corrosive environments, but it's expensive to make and even more expensive to form. it's also monstrously strong, which is something i don't really need. Ceramics might sacrifice that strength for just the same heat and corrosion resistance

What knowledge does one need to build such a thing?

>>2986435

Nuclear, chemical, electrical and mechanical engineering with a hefty dose of physics and chemistry to go with it.

This project won't get beyond that crappy .png

i'm not quite knowledgeable in the areas of what types of reactors exist, but what would be the smallest possible to build?

Wow, more thorium worshippers.

List both the advantages and disadvantages or I'm giving you a mandatory D grade.

wait, is op trying to make a fusor or what?
>i'm confus

>>2986573
here you go
http://sciref.wikispaces.com/Liquid+Fluoride+Thorium+Reactor
most of the disadvantages are either engineering issues to iron out, or simple logistical problems. it really is almost perfect (at least in a large scale grid power sense)

>>2986639
no, fuzor is fusion. this is fission
and sadly, some recent studies seem to strongly suggest the fuzor design is fundamentally limited to never break even. feels bad man :(

>>2986875 simple logistical problems

>>2987322
The logistical problems for refining thorium are well known. Your laughter is unjustified.

>>2987328

If it's so simple, why are they a problem?

>>2987368
Because "simple" does not mean "easy". It's just easier than refining uranium.

>>2987328
The logistical problems are the U233 kickstart needed, but there is enough in storage to start a few plants, and dedicated breeding facilities would be easy and quick to build.

While all this does sound kinda interesting, i would strongly suggest to NOT do it.

Calculating/simulating/designing something like this from scratch is surely a fun exercise, but actually building it, and fucking around with a life nuclear reactor?

hell no!

>>2987420
If this was a pressurized water reactor, I would agree with you.
But the radiation output is so peanuts, and the overall stability/passive safety so strong, its just fucking begging to be built!

Again, my concerns are Burns and fluorine leaks, not so much radiation...

>>2987420
Why not? Even if it goes critical, it'll just get a little melty and stop working. You wouldn't even need a catch basin. The fluorine is the most dangerous component.

>>2987393

Of course it's not fucking easy and it's way beyond the technical expertise of 99.999% of the people here.

thats an awesome design bro, but building this on your own seems quite a huge task.

have you thought what you will do with the energy produced yet.

also backup cooling if primary cooling fails?

what is your calculated power output?

>>2987393

>definition simple - Easily understood or done; presenting no difficulty
>definition easy - Without difficulty or effort

>>2987502
Simple, as in, opposite of complex.

Refining thorium is not complex, -and- not easy.

Sounds like a great idea, but, it's very large.
Also, about the legality of it all. You mentioned it's legal to own two hundred g of U223, what about the construction and use of anything that fissions shit up in large quantities?
If everything works out though fucking go for it, then sell the energy back to the grid. Might even pay off after a while?

>>2985306
>>computer science major making a nuclear reactor
This won't end well. I am genuinely scared now.

>>a big obstacle to this entire project is my lack of the necessary equations to begin the number crunching process.
if that's your biggest obstacle, you shouldn't even be worrying about where to buy materials. Also, are you aware of how dangerous fluorine gas is? Especially when it mixes with water and forms HF. Doesn't take that much to kill you.

>>2987558
Yes, but if I get HF on my skin, I'll grow a crunchy calcium-based outer shell.

>>2987558
why are you using a helium turbine to generate power? Also how are you going to make one?

>>2987597
if you are lucky you will get a helium loss of 1% a day

>>2987586

And your tears will melt glass

Helium turbine --> Huh?

graphite + high temperature + fluoride + hobby-engineering = disaster

what kind of time-frame are we looking at here? what i mean is; when should i expect to see your death in the news? or your magnificent triumph of backyard nuclear engineering - let's be positive!

>>2987437
While I salute your spirit of amateur scientific and engineering inquiry, making your own reactor is simply not realistic, just like making your own orbital launch system. The capital costs alone are going to be in the $100 million range, even if you had a proven design to copy.

And that isn't even the largest barrier! The current estimate by the NRC to even approve *research* into a new reactor type like LFTR is 13 FUCKING YEARS because no-one in the government has any experience with this technology. Also, the existing nuke businesses actively lobby against LFTR research because it destroys their business models of building plants at cost then overcharging for fuel assemblies year after year.

If you seriously want to work on LFTR, you should study all the documents at energyfromthorium.com, and then emigrate to either Japan or China, the only two countries that have expressed political motivation to devote the millions to research this tech. (India also likes Thorium, but as solid oxides in existing CANDU-style water cooled reactors.)

>>2987437
>But the radiation output is so peanuts
Um, I don't know where you got THAT idea. Not only is the core hot, but you are circulating radioactive fluid to the heat exchangers and fuel/waste extraction areas. That entire system is "hot" (in both senses).

Also, I don't know whether you realize that this whole system is designed to operate at >1000K? Not the sort of equipment you want in your garage or basement!

>>2987492
watch the video, there doesn't NEED to be backup cooling, or even primary cooling!

if you stop taking energy out of the reactor, it actually cools down and sits at an optimal temperature. if you drain it into the drain tanks with no graphite moderator, it freezes back into a solid salt, and that's it.

>>2987509
refining thorium? you don't need to refine it. the most common form of thorium (Th232) is the breeder fuel for the reactor, it needs no enrichment.

it's literally like purifying any other metal

>>2987597
the closed cycle turbine might not actually work out, i might go ghetto and stick with steam

>>2988572
not for a while. i'm not buying any components until i've modeled every piece and know where to get all the materials. the fluorine is probably going in LAST, after i've run a lot of leak check tests in the system.

as for when? probably next year at some point after i move, and get a house with much more land

>>2989322
the continuous reprocessing means any hard gamma emitters or other nasties get filtered out of the system within minutes. probably into a nice thick lead box or something.

the Hastelloy-N is what will be taking the heat and fluorine corrosion, the MSRE used the stuff and it held up great.

and again, it's only hot when in proximity to itself, if it changes temperature too quickly it freezes back solid. leaks will plug themselves

>>2986639
if only, fusors are way more forgiving, the only issue I know for a Farnsworth-Hirsch Fusor is the neutron output from certain fuels.

code word for future self: steel Mons to build such a thing build thing with Rob

>>2989517
do wut

I think this is brilliant.
All of my luck to you good sir.

It is people like you who make the world a better place.
>make energy and single handedly achieve a feat of engineering
>radioactive explosion and thousands of americans dead
win win situation

If you accomplish this in anyway then I am so proud, even if you die 20 years early its worth it. I'm to young and haven't even grasped some of what you guys would see as the basic concepts but for the last year or 2 I've dreamed of making something like this. If you have any time to send any updates of your progress please send any info to the email in the email field. Good Luck.

>>2989596
>>radioactive explosion and thousands of americans dead
>amateur science becomes illegal forever
>can't even fucking buy transistors without an eight-year degree and an oath of loyalty

NOPE.

Also, time to read up on the radioactive boy scout.

One radiation exposure or criticality mistake and you will be barred from any nuclear work for the rest of your life.

>>2989596
>implying this design can explode
nope.avi
the core itself is under no pressure, can't explode
i'm more concerned about fluorine gas problems, and maybe helium

I had this idea while I was watching Nova earlier this week, I think /sci/ should band together, along with any other science related sites that are interested; and mass email nova (in a non annoying way), emploring them to do an episode or short on the liquid fluoride thorium reactor. Anyone else in?

>>2989748
yes, the legal implications and limitations will probably be the biggest challenge to making this thing run.

i'm drawing up a revised design for the LFTR, see if i can cut it down to low-pressure steam power

anything using steam would need to be mechanically regulated so as to stay just above 100 degrees C at all times. no way in hell i'm operating at multiple atmospheres to squeeze more juice out of it, the core will have plenty of heat

hell i might even hook up my AC condenser and hot water heater to those heat coils.

>>2989995
youre serious about this arent you?

>>2990007
indeed i am

>>2990021
you should stop by here and post pics of the final result and if its working then. if youre still alive

>>2990036
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOT of steps before that. small scale core runs, automated fluorination tests. drain tank tests, ect.
and that's not including all the circuitry needed to make this thing as safe as possible. lots of failsafe systems, especially around that damn fluorine

>>2990055
i didnt say you was going to finish it today, did i?

just post pics of it in WIP, it would be interesting

>>2989957 legal implications and limitations will probably be the biggest challenge to making this thing run.

Totally underestimating everything.

>>2990320
the NRC is extremely strict on stuff like this, as they should be.
hence why i'm so adamant about building this. to say "hey, this isn't like any nuclear power approach that has come before"

>>2990377

You have no concept of the technical difficulties, your diagram is no more than a scribble ffs.

By all means, continue with your interest but you will soon realise that with the more you know, the less you actually know.

>>2990377 to say "hey, this isn't like any nuclear power approach that has come before"

You're a little bit late for that, someone has already invented it.

>>2990685
difficulties yes, but with lots of documentation
the problem with the NRC is that it's not like you can work out how to get around it with enough thought and experimentation. you have to work within those constraints period.

Good luck getting all of the materials and funding to make this. You're gonna need it.