/sci/ - Science & Math

Mechanicus thread? Mechanicus thread.

captcha: THEOREM adoop

Transhumanism general?

How many decades do I have to wait before I can convert my body to a powerful mechanical body armed with combat tentacles, that I can use to wrestle polar bears and sharks to death?

I want to do that one day, just roam acros the world, wrestling with big animals all day everyday. One can only dream I gues...

>>2896288
who knows

>>2896288

Hint: Only extremely rich people will achieve immortality.

>>2896285

Hell, why not?

How likely do you think would formation of a mechanicus styled organisation be in the modern age?

The common man already has very little understanding of the inner workings of technology. I seriously doupt that most people actually understand completely how their computers for example work. If technology keeps getting more and more complex, well eventually end up in a situation, where only the very educated people actually understand anything about the workings of the technology. To the rest of us, it might as well be magic. We might now what some machine does, but we wouldn't understand why and how it does that.

>>2896288

Nobody is stopping your right now, get to it.

>>2896288
You can't, you will be dead before it.

>>2896288
I think fist steps would be neurological control over mechanism and a reliable source of energy, oh and sensors equivalent to human natural receptors.

>>2896262
>He thinks transhumanism is anything else but the geeks' fairytale daydreaming
>Mfw..

>>2896288

FUCK YEAH!
Techno barbaric cyborg berserkers!

Would it still be "you" once the last biological component of the machine rots away?

>>2896330
Actually, there's no meaningful way in which you be a machine and "live".
But transhomos are not aware of this contradictions,

>>2896340

>Actually, there's no meaningful way in which you be a machine and "live".

That's biochauvinism bro.

Living things reproduce, evolve over time and engage in nutrition; the exchange of matter/energy with the environment.

A multi-purpose machine could build a copy of itself.
A machine could change itself over time to suit its needs.
A machine exchanges energy because, well, it requires it, and matter for repairs.

But luddites are not aware of their idiocy.

>>2896340
Well, maybe, though since the biological component will rot away whether it's attached to a machine or not and the answer to this crosses over into philosophy you might as well try anyway if you manage to join the super-elite and can afford it.

>>2896321

The first part has already been achived by human science.
The energy source is a problem, but the neccesary advancements in battery technology will most likely be developed within the next decades.
I am not so sure abouyt the sensors. To my understanding, it has been very hard to mimic humanlike senses on robots. And on top of that, there would need to be developed some sort of a system that could translate the data prodused by the sensors to understandable for for human brains.

I am hopeful that this technology will be available within the next 50 years. Then I can fulfim by dream and become a machine brawler, exploring the unclaimed wastes of siberia, challenging bears in batlles of honor, climbing in the mountains and generally doing awesome shit.

>>2896340

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

>I remembered once, in Japan, having been to see the Gold Pavilion Temple in Kyoto and being mildly surprised at quite how well it had weathered the passage of time since it was first built in the fourteenth century. I was told it hadn't weathered well at all, and had in fact been burnt to the ground twice in this century. "So it isn't the original building?" I had asked my Japanese guide.
>"But yes, of course it is," he insisted, rather surprised at my question.
>"But it's burnt down?"
>"Yes."
>"Twice."
>"Many times."
>"And rebuilt."
>"Of course. It is an important and historic building."
>"With completely new materials."
>"But of course. It was burnt down."
>"So how can it be the same building?"
>"It is always the same building."
>I had to admit to myself that this was in fact a perfectly rational point of view, it merely started from an unexpected premise. The idea of the building, the intention of it, its design, are all immutable and are the essence of the building. The intention of the original builders is what survives. The wood of which the design is constructed decays and is replaced when necessary. To be overly concerned with the original materials, which are merely sentimental souvenirs of the past, is to fail to see the living building itself.

>>2896312

Moar admech art, les bickering about transhumanity!

>>2896345
>>2896349
>biochauvinism
>intention of the original builders is what survives
Do you listen to yourself? in b4 "my ideas are just too ripe for some"

>>2896356

Do you seriously thing only wet machines are alive? You are a machine. You are an emergent property of machines, and you better get used to it.

>>2896355

Your will is my command!

>>2896363

>>2896373

>>2896377

>>2896379

>>2896361
Proof? You're not one of these communists who think determinism has been proven, are you?

>>2896386
Determinism is implied

>>2896386

Okay, that's it, you're a troll. 2/10 for not knowing basic biology.

>>2896384

Is someone still wanting these pics, because I have more of them, but I really don't want to dump them all here, if no one is wanting them. Would be kinda pointles, in my opinion.

>>2896388
>>2896389
lol but there just isn't proof, either way, I'm just saying

We could be discussing how I would be unable to prove to a robot that I am sapient, but obviously you're more interested in silly ideological quibbles than philosophy.

>>2896392
I might think one of them is neat and add them to my concept art collection.

>>2896394

> than philosophy.

Not science.

Determinism holds in the macroscale world. We all know this. It's almost as obvious as an axiom. Apparently for you "philosophers" that's not enough.

Even at the quantum scale, Heisenberg's Uncertainty does not completely beat it, since Uncertainty is probabilistic and you can predict to very good degrees of certainty how a certain quantum event is going to turn out, though it doesn't matter, since quantum fluctuations don't affect matter.

If you ere whisked from the year 1850 by a time machine, then that might explain why the word 'machine' brings up the idea of gears and axles or something that has no free choice. Of course that's an obsolete worldview. A machine is something that feeds of negative entropy and produces work.

Proteins are machines, cells are machines, people are machines, computers are machines. Your consciousness is an emergent property of the interaction of this machines. But if you want to hold on to the idea of some magical pixie dust being behind it all, good for you.

>>2896392

Do you have any wallpaper sized pictures?

>>2896406

Couldn't have said it better myself.

>>2896398

Alrighty then, re-commencing the admech dump.

>>2896394
Determinism has nothing to do with the fact that living beings are basically very complicated machines or at least that the distinction between machines and living beings is just an arbitrary definition.

>>2896392
the pics are awesome, go ahead and keep dumping

I was thinking about a transhumanist character alignment chart, like with "Lawful Evil", "Chaotic Evil", stuff like that. What would /sci/ suggest for each?

>>2896419

Sorry for the slight dealy, had to search some pictures.

>>2896434

>>2896438

>>2896262

And then the tau have better tech without the need of a mechine god

>>2896442

>>2896444

HERESY

>>2896444

nope, they actually dont have. They just can afford to deploy their high tech with their grunts, because of their small size.

aand moar pics.

>>2896451
>>2896461

I am dumping them as fast as I can.

>>2896464

>>2896468

>>2896479

>>2896486

>Alter the holy STC desing of a toaster

>Get servitored for tech heresy

>>2896312
Yes, that's a great problem, we can't assimilate so much information as science offers right now, I'm studying aerospace engineering, but I have no idea about how to make a decent robotic device right now.

>>2896489

>>2896499

>>2896501

>>2896507

Aaaaand now I am done.
Out of good pics for now.
Hopefully you enjoyed this art dump.

Praise to the glories of the Omnissiah.

DEUS EST MECHANICUS

DEUS EST OMNISSIAH

OMNISSIAH VULT OMNISSIAH VULT OMNISSIAH VULT OMNISSIAH VULT

>>2896406
>magical pixie dust
I'm wondering if you're a troll or not since you seem to be putting more time and effort into this than me. Science is a philosophy, by default science cannot explain how a machine allows for sapience since science relies on a sapient observer, sapient as in the ability to feel qualia, understand thoughts and not be a philosophical zombie and so forth. This is the crux of what we are discussing here.

>>2896422
"machine" does not describe the mind of the machine, just it's "body", so technically we're talking about the central computer here which will presumably work digitally with discrete 1s and 0s as opposed to analog synapses of varying intensity and duration, so there may in fact be well defined and understood differences between computers and brains. Although computers of the future to be affected by quantum phenomena or work in analog, I don't think the collections of transistors we have today are up to the task.

>>2896490

To me, there seems to only be two solutions. Either we accept the fact that most people will never understand anything but the basics of the technology they use, if even that, and eventually all the important knowledge about the maintance, manoufactoring and workings of technologies will accumulate to relatively small number of people. Because of this, they can have considerable degree of controll over the people who are ignorant about the technology. This can ultimately lead to some sort of techno aristocrasim.

The other route, is to alter our minds, education and society to a shape that allows us a larger degree of understanding an memory, eases our ability to learn and find out more about technology and helps the free roam of information. Ultimately we need to merge ourselves with the technology, make our tools literally a part of our very existance. This way, no single group of people can claim monopoly on important information and technology, like in the techno aristocrasim, because that information and technology IS us, if that makes any sence.

>>2896524
Thanks

>>2896349
You mean like replacing your newrons all the time to keep keeping alive, while you lose anything you knew in the process?

I told you you transfags are unaware of your own functioning.

>>2896545
>well defined differences between computers and brains

>>2896557
I think some combination of the 2 will occur, not everyone will receive the best technology but most of the population will receive economically viable technology.

>>2896582
So you think transistors are like brain cells? If you don't want to discuss this then fuck you. Hurr durr you troll me, whatever dude.

>>2896569
I think it would be more like adding computer devices to your neurological functions until they overcome the brain.

>>2896566

AWSEOME!

Fucking saved for future praise of the machine!

>>2896598

Yeah, that is quite likely. There is no money to be gained by not selling new tech to people. On the other hand, there is no money to be gained by giving it away free. Because of these two factors, the best transhuman tech will be pretty expensive, but there will be cheaper versions, to be sold to the masses. And eventually, when the tech becomes older, it will become cheaper. The rich will always be ahead in the transhuman factor, but never too far ahead.

>>2896602
It has been shown that transistors are very much like brain cells. We've known this since the 1960's, it cannot be denied. The problem is attaining the information density that the brain has. Computers now process at speeds powers of 10 greater than the speed of the human brain. The human brain consists of billions of slower computers, all working in unison.
According to Moor's law, it would be possible to manufacture an artificial brain at some point.

dealwithit.jpg

>>2896645
>Hahaha
>he thinks neurons are like transistors

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v14/n2/full/nn.2728.html

>>2896680
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WVI/is_2000_July_3/ai_63328582/

>>2896545

>so technically we're talking about the central computer here which will presumably work digitally with discrete 1s and 0s as opposed to analog synapses of varying intensity and duration

Mechanical nanocomputers, how do they fucking work?

Alternatively, you could just simulate all those processes, since they are not outside our grasp and there is no qualitative difference between the information in your brain and that of a computer.

>>2896706
Check the date on that study bro. It reflects the state of knowledge on the neuron's behaviour in 2000.

The study I linked to showed that neurons don't behave like in that old model. Actually, they are shown to have something akin to a memory and produce action potentials a significant time after they have been stimulated.

So what the piece of news you linked to shows is that the non-liniar interactions from the MIT cortical model reflect the state of knowledge on the neurons' behaviour at that time, as well as the implications for how cortical columns were known to work back then.

I think I'll start a thread on this sbject one day to speak a bit deeper. Without all those ideological leechers..

>>2896900

The fuck you are talking about?

>ideological leechers

wat?

>mfw when people think that human made machines are better than atom machines.
keep dreaming faggots

>>2896566

Is there a wallpaper of this?

>>2896999

If by atom machines you mean our brains, then I've got some bad news for you. Your brain runs at about 100 hertz, and my computer has 4 2 Ghz processors. The only reason the brain can do what it does is massive parrallelism.

Now give it a few years for technology to catch up, for quantum computers and bio computers to maturate, and the human brain will be the inefficient one.

Watson has already proven that computers can be taught to understand semantics. That opens up a LOT of jobs to non-sentient robot labour. It only gets better from there.

I don't get why some people are so obsessed with the idea of Deus Ex Machina, or a god created out of technology. I don't like the idea of any god, I'm an atheist for not just rational reasons, but romantic reasons too. The idea of God is the antithesis of freedom. Why should we create a ruler out of AI. I'm not saying it would be evil, hell, it might be completely benign or friendly. But there's no reason to have society run by an AI construct, regardless of how perfect it is. I believe in social free will, and the idea of a "central planner" turns me off even if the "planner" were by any definition omniscient. The idea that we should completely submit ourselves to some glorious AI just doesn't seem attractive.

>>2897083

>implying we want to create AI rulers

Son, we want to become posthumans, not make them!

>>2897083
>mfw he thinks 'This Perfect Day' is the transhumanist manifesto

>>2897088
I have nothing against posthumans in general, I was just talking about the "omnimessiah" guy. I realize it's from a game, but then there's people like Kurzweil who want a seemingly magical AI construct to solve all our problems. That seems kind of sketchy to me.

>>2897099
First of all, the Omnissiah is not actually a physical being, even in the 40K universe.
>Just like any other God.
Kurzweil doesn't want a "magical" AI construct to solve all of our problems, he wants a "magical" AI construct to make the tech so that we can solve all of our problems.

>>2897115
>>2897099
That's why I think Kurzweil is a turd. He has such a low opinion of humanity that he thinks we are incapable of solving our own problems. We MUST have a strong AI bring about the technological singularity, because our pitiful brains are not capable of working out and manipulating the fine structure of life.
>mfw
>my face is an excel sheet.

This thread sucks. Transhumanism is a pathetic delusion by nerds who watch too many movies.

>>2897122
Alright, I take your point. No point in arguing about that any longer.

On a related note: Your pic is the reason I'm afraid that geneticists are going to become the fashonistas of the science community.
DESIGNER BABIES AND COSMETICS FUCKING EVERYWHERE

>>2897127
I'm sorry, Dr. Gug, but transsimianism is just a fantasy of males whose back never turned silver, who sit around all day and poke new kinds of sticks into termite mounds. It's a daydream! Simiankind will never transcend itself and become anything greater - in fact, natural selection has stopped acting on us.

We can manipulate our environment, crack open nuts, and obtain more termites than we could ever need. Already our use-rock-to-bash-head surgery cures those who are diseased! How indeed could there be any pressure to become more than simian?

>>2897127

Your opinion is noted. Now if you have any more insightfull toughts in your, oh so briliant mind, please share them here. We are all, of course, so interested to hear them.

>>2897127
0/10

>>2897122
> We MUST have a strong AI bring about the technological singularity, because our pitiful brains are not capable of working out and manipulating the fine structure of life.

We could upgrade our brains with gene therapy or BCI tech instead of inventing AI. But the whole point of the singularity is progress faster than unmodified human minds can follow and as such would need some form of machine intelligence, stand alone or integrated with flesh-brains

Of course, one could argue that we already are progressing faster than is possible to follow, in pure academic research atleast.

>>2897115

Omnisiah is rumoured to be Void Dragon. A star vampire/god.
Warhammer is silly like that, but the imagery is fucking briliant. The admech art is in some ways so familiar looking (all the heavy industrial styled limbs, powercords, gears ect.) and at the same time, fucking alien and creepy. I love it!

>>2897177
When we finally arise from this miserable rock, spreading across the stars bringing the light of reason and humanity to the heathen cosmos, a divine plague of perfect immortal beings, and we come across the first of the barbarian Races, we will come before them and say,
>We have made ourselves gods of our own hands.
Way better than
>lol computer did it for us.

I don't think I've seen a more popular crutch for nerds than the belief of transhumanism and te technological singularity. You idiots are gonna be the same awkward virgins you are now despite having a new body. ALmost all the things you want to become a machine for you can do now by not being a fucking waste of space.

>>2897200

Can I wrestle bears to the death, can I fly around the cosmos, exploring and studying it's mysteries, can I see radiowawes and feel the solar wind against my perfect sythetic body.

No I cannot.

Also,

>implying I would waste time pondering about sexuality and women, if I was a fucking demigod of steel.

The first thing I would probably do is destroy the parts of my brain responsible for sexual drive and love. Those emotions and instincts are manipulation that your genes use to force you to spread them. I am no slave, therefore, I do not feel love.

>>2897200
Oh you great messiah who has achieved such many goals in his life (and uses virgin and an insult?), please tell me, (a useless piece of trash) about them without using a machine.

>>2897242

And ye, I, your lord and savior, speak unto you that in times past I have made it with a woman.

Inform the men.


Also, >>2897242

You think people are just gonna sit by and allow some cyborg on a power trip to kill endangered species and lord itself over the rest of humanity? The selfishness of your transformation is reflected in your actions. Your kind will soon earn the agression of every living human on the planet.

>>2897242
>The first thing I would probably do is destroy the parts of my brain responsible for sexual drive and love.

Why destroy them instead of simply inhibiting, disabling or putting them under absolute conscious control? Given that machine integration will allow movies and games to be experienced in a whole new way you'd lose out on some quality entertainment by restricting your feelings and emotions in a permanent manner.

Substituting your normal memory with a fake one and plunging yourself into a virtual world to live a false life wouldn't be something I'd want to miss out on. It would be like HD dreaming and allow you to experience everything in a manner as if you actually was there, as a real person.

>>2897251

Many aspects of our behavior are a result of direct manipulation of our minds that hormones coded by genes cause. The guestion is, do you want to be manipulated by a code that is millenias old, and is only using your body as a temporary venichle to spread itself, or do you want to resist, and be free.

A fitting metaphor for human existance I once heard.

Life is like woking up in a taxi. You have no idea of how you got there. The driwer takes your directions but follows them poorly, and despite this is constantly trying to drive to some destination, he himself wants. He refuses to tell you how much gasoline thre is left in the tank and refuses to stop at gas stations.

What are your options here?
You can lay back and enjoy the ride for what its worth to its end. (life and eventual death.)
You can jump out. (suicide)
Or you can kick that cunt driver's ass and drive the taxi yourself, refueling it when necessary. (transhumanism)

>itt: people making a way too many assumptions based on technology not created or proven to be able to be created yet.

>>2897287

You are, of course correct.
I wrote that piece in a hurry, and didn't really elaborate it as well as I should have.

>>2897274

At what point did I say I wish to lord over humanity. I only wish to have the freedom to fulfill my dreams. Ideally, I would like to see humans as a species become a species of gods, each individual independant and free to fullfil their wildest dreams and shape the universe to fit their vision.

You are projecting your own need to rule over others to my simple wish to have the freedom from the limitations of my frail biologial form, so that I can search and create wonders in this amazing universe.

Also, bears are not that endangered. And even if they were, we could always clone more of them at the point when we can become cyborgs that can actually wrestle them.

>>2896312

How will that lead to a religious organisation like mechanicus? Simple ignorance of technology isn't enough to warrant a religion around it. I might not noe how my iphone works, but I know it isn't magic or something, and I know that there is people who actually KNOW how it works.

The idea that technology is somehow divine is needed for a religion to build around it. Simple ignorance will only lead to people who have no clue how to fix their shit.

>>2897310

>You are projecting your need to rule others to me

>I wish to become god and shape the universe according to my vision

I realize that you nerds are delusional but cmon, really? You contradict your own shitty excuses in the very next sentence.

>>2897601

You quote me out of contexst and twist my words.
Firstly the term "god" I use is just an easier way to say being with great powers because of highly advanced technology, wich I am of course talking about, not some magic tossing supernatural entity.

By shaping universe to fit our vision, I simply mean that humans could for example terraform planets to be sutiable for earth born life ect. The freedom to imprint one's own creativity to the universe.

You are still only projecting, I have no wishes of ruling over others. How could I have, the whole point of my ideal future is the idea that every human being is a "god". They wouldn't really even need each other, they would be entirely self suficent. How wishing for a future like that translates to a urge to rule over other humans, I will never know.

If everyone is a "god", how can I even possibly rule over them? i just want to roam and explore new and exiting worlds, learn more, investigate the wonders of the universe...