/sci/ - Science & Math

Communism doesnt work.

>stopped reading when zeitgeist was cited

I agree in theory, but there would have to be a governing body an because it would be a world government, there would almost certainly be corruption and abuses of power undermining the entire point of the project. That being said, I love those movies.

>>2808636

Why not? Do you not agree that the way we behave is influenced by the environment (=society) for the most part?

humanity will never into techno-scientific resource-planned liberal utopia

sad-frog.jpg

>>2808636

>implying communism means large-scale totalitarian central government

>>2808648

Why not? Do you think we are not capable? Or not willing?

what if we build a AI capable of ruling the planet with pure logic, give it direct control of all the communication, power and whatnot. then let it rule us? no corruption!

Maybe possible with future technology. It's currently infeasible, and anyone who supports it now is fucking retarded.

>>2808645
Sure. But people in power want more power. My biggest problem with the Venus project is that it's not grounded in reality.

How do we get from point a to point b?

Alex Jones just wants a free country, and that's doable, if unlikely. Peter Joseph might as well be talking about fairies and unicorns.

On one hand The Venus Project could work like 4chan, decentralized and technocratic. We do nothing until consensus is achieved. 4chan's goal is trolling, but IRL the goal is survival. We could basically work like a virus, spreading technologically.

ITT: quasireligious bullshit.

THIS UTOPIA IS NOT ACHIEVABLE AND ACTING LIKE IT IS HURTS THE FREEDOM MOVEMENT.

>>2808662

It might not be realistic _now_, it is clear that a huge shift is required in the contemporary ways of thinking.

But the system as it is, is doomed to fail by its very foundations. I do believe that radical change is necessary for the whole thing not to collapse onto itself. Starting with the way people see the world and each other.

>>2808662
>Alex Jones just wants a free country, and that's doable
I don't think his vague idea of a free country is particularized enough to judge its workability. He uses the term "freedom" the same way the alternative medicine crowd uses "energy".

Project Venus is an unrealistic utopia, but at the very least, it's a concise idea, not a buzzword.

>>2808668
isnt that just anarchism?

>>2808682
>THE FREEDOM MOVEMENT

>>2808659
Where do you think that tech is going to come from if there aren't people who are currently trying to develop it (people who would, by necessity, support the Venus Project)

>>2808706

Anarchy is not directed. 4chan is usually anarchy, but during a troll or raid it is focused on a goal. The goal is defined and met. Survival is defined and never ends.

>>2808656

Most likely, not capable. Humans are angry monkeys who like to throw shit at each other in order to fight for control of all the other monkeys who were too weak, stupid, or apathetic to compete for the leadership position.

the only way to do this is to make every person on earth take a test to make sure that theey are A)mentally stable
B)highly intelligent
C)moral and ethical
D)willing to get with the program

All the people who passed the test get to build the new utopia. Everyone else? Mass genocide. But this is all assuming that we're able to get enough of an ulterior-motive-free consensus of organized huamns together to actually implement the plan state above.

>mfw star trek society
>mfw humans don't suck
>mfw even the most intelligent and ethical among us are expected to completely put aside selfish gratification and temptation to abuse power

Putting aside all traditional political and philosophical ideologies I welcome you to give this a watch: http://zeitgeistmovingforward.com/

I welcome all thoughts, comments, and criticisms.

>>2808727
Anarchism is a political philosophy which considers the state undesirable, unnecessary, and harmful, and instead promotes a stateless society, or anarchy.

still seems like anarchism to me

anarchy <span class="math">\neq[/spoiler] disorganized chaos

anarchy = stateless society

ergo, (and this is the real shocker for most people, and the major point of philosophical disagreement) anarchists imply that

stateless society <span class="math">\neq[/spoiler] disorganized chaos

in this regard, Marx as an anarchist as well, what with his elucidation of the ideal form of communism.

As for the contrary view, Hobbesians gonna Hobbes

>>2808636
It's not communism.

A true scientist looks at all the facts before commenting.

>>2808799

the far right and far left don't usually consider anarchy to be disorganized chaos. In fact, they believe that organisation would arise naturally from the social interactions of the stateless society...in the form of economic plutocracy.

The difference is, the right wingers secretly love this, and the left wingers are militantly against this.

Only works with psychedelics that remind us that we're all one

>>2808838

Great idea, should be included in the plan: LSD in the water supplies by default :)

There will be always people who think they are worth more.
There will be always people who demand more.

Their ideas about urbanism are terrible.

The problem is that the Venus project is based on vague notions of what will make the society tick like "the scientific method", "computer networks".

If you think you can plan a modern economy, SHOW ME THE FUCKING ALGORITHMS. HOW WILL YOU DETERMINE THE VALUE OF PRODUCTION INPUTS IN THE ABSENCE OF MARKETS? HOW WILL YOU INCENTIVIZE LABOR (THERE WILL BE LABOR)? HOW WILL YOU DETERMINE THE BEST USE OF CAPITAL EQUIPMENT?

The answer of the central planners in the past has been
>arbitrarily
>with soldiers and guns
>arbitrarily

So I'm sure you understand why I am skeptical

>>2808871
>Doesn't understand how rapidly LSD tolerance occurs.

>>2808968
in b4 "mad"

>this thread
>people missing the general point

It's human nature to kill, rape and pillage. The only difference is in subtlety and complexity of such actions. More primitive members of our society might exercise it in it's raw form, while those more "evolved and intelligent" will exercise it through social norms and complex legal, political and economic systems.

First of all, some people who make very good money will do anything to sabotage such project if it proves to be a threat to the current paradigm. Second, it just screams for Bioshock-like scenario, or some B grade horror movie. Not to mention it cannot be economically sustainable at current age. If people refuse to live like in a ghetto that is.

>>2808968

>allocation of capital?
but determining what amount and what type of resources are need in one area of the society and allocating it too them from another area where that resource is in surplus. Of course, there would be some amount of stockpiling taken into consideration to account for the practical matters of differences in the efficiency of deliveries, possible hang ups in resource extraction/production, etc. The truth of the matter is that the idea that a series of central bodies cannot manage the recourses fro their group is a fallacy. Large corporations do this all the time. Did you ever think about that? Large companies account for their internal resources/money and then allocated them in a centrally/semi-centrally planned manner. OH NOES HOW WILL GOOGLE INC FIND OUT WHAT AREAS OF THEIR COMPANY NEED MORE NEW OFFICE SUPPLIES WITHOUT THE MARKET OH NOES

>value determination?
See above. The question is moot since the value of the resources are determined in proportion to their priority of distribution to the needed areas. And yes, this measure can be based on how much of a giver resource the said community has in stockpile at a given time.

>HOW WILL YOU INCENTIVIZE LABOR
the amount of (potentially) unwanted labor necessary will be limited to the hopefully small and infrequent humand-required maintainance of the existing infrastructure. The existing infrastructure is the key to maintaining the existing high standard of living experienced by the people in the said society. Therefore, getting that work done is an incentive in and of itself.

tl;dr the classical neroliberal assertion that planned economies can't make sufficient economic calculations is a fallacious straw man

I'm tired of arguing this with you Austrian ideogloge blowhards

ITT: THINGS WILL NEVER CHANGE!

Once you start to understand how you've been held back, a switch flips, and you begin to understand that the only real change you can bring about is when everyone is willing to bring that change about. Its not about a blanket fix for everywhere on the planet, its about using what specific areas already have most efficiently and at minimal cost of human suffering. Everyone saying how we can't avoid human nature is missing the point that people have the capacity to overcome their own greed when it means conditions for every human being on the planet would vastly improve.

>>2809078
If it improved in equal amount for everyone, we would still have huge class differences we have today. People would only become more spoiled and demand more, and nothing would actually change. You would still have wars, exploitation, drug/human trafficking, energy lobbies etc. Just in a post-modern setting.

>or go watch the film Zeitgeist

AHWHAAAhwwhAWHWAhaa....wait, are you serious? WHAWHAAAHHAHAHWHHAHAAHWHAHAAAHHBWHAUAHWHUAWHUAWHUAHUA

That pic looks like mark of Chaos.

Papa Nurgle is pleased.

>>2809063
You have poor grammar.

>need
>surplus
Both of these are of little meaning in the context you used them and your argument hinged on their definition. What do you mean by both of these?

Yes, large companies act like a quasi-central planning agency however they can be guided by meaningful prices that have come about as a result of exchanges on the market place. If the company were to vertically integrate all of the things that they use in order to produce their product, they would find it much more difficult to be efficient. If you'll notice, Google does not have an office supply manufacturing arm, fed resources by their timber and rubber divisions. They buy office supplies.

>value of the resources are determined in proportion to their priority of distribution to the needed areas
So you faggots say you want computers to do these calculations, get your Venus high priests to post the algorithms on their site, and let the big boys have a swing at them.

Existing infrastructure is powered by humans much more than you (apparently) realize. There is still no incentive on the individual level (groups don't act, individuals do).

tl;dr you said nothing in your post
You're tired of arguing this because you never make any substantive points against our position.